hi everyone! newbie here....could this be a MLC?

[ptcr]

Wow.....accuray the pursuer/pursued info above described my H to the "T" and it echoed his many comments when leaving. More importanty, like mncwng, my H is being nicer and it has made me have expectations again...textbook! Is this from one of the books you mentioned?

Thanks again for your time in sharing it with us "newbies."

Thinking of you mcnwng...we are all in this together!

[Accuray]

Yes, the quoted parts are from "The Solo Partner". As long as you are willing to pursue, you're like an insurance policy against loneliness for your distancer -- they know they can always come back and you will take them.

You will not see real change until this insurance policy is revoked. They need to truly believe that your commitment to them is at risk and you are moving on for your own sake. That's an important distinction. If you don't talk to them for 2 weeks, but they know that if they call you'll pick up on the first ring, then you're not really detaching the way you need to, they need to wonder if you'll pick up or not.

When you start to pull back and they start to be nice, that is their campaign to keep you pursuing. That's the *hard* part, to continue to distance when they try to rope you back in. It's very easy to give in at this point and start pursuing again, because it *feels* like what you *should* do. Continuing to disengage is counter-intuitive and feels wrong. Know that going in.

The other important distinction is that "distancing" does not mean being cold or adversarial. On the contrary, you can be very pleasant and friendly. It just means you're not looking for your partner to validate you. You're not looking to them to make you feel good in any way. You're taking care of you without them.

Another book that talks about the virtue of distancing, particularly with a walk-away or cake-eating spouse is "Love Must Be Tough" by Dobson. Warning: this book is dated, homophobic, and spends a lot of time trying to reconcile divorce with Christian scripture. That said, there is a lot of value in it. Here are some bits that may be helpful to think about. In this passage, he's talking about having a spouse who is "cake eating" -- i.e. continuing to live at home while having an affair. He recommends a confrontation, which is the "crisis" he refers to. If that's not your situation, what he says about distance and the value therein is still valid:

"The precipitated crisis first, must be accompanied by an entire change of attitude. Instead of begging, pleading, wringing your hands...you as the vulnerable partner must appear strangely calm and assured. The key word is confidence, and it is of maximum importance. Your manner should say, 'I believe in me, I am not afraid. I can cope, regardless of the outcome. I know something I'm not talking about. I've had my day of sorrow, and I'm through crying..."

"Not that you should say these things with words, or course. In fact, the less said about your frame of mind, the better. It's your private business. One of the great errors made by the vulnerable lover when things begin to deteriorate is to talk too much. Her secure partner is noncommunicative, evasive, deceptive, and mysterious. He will not sit down and explain his inner feelings to the one who desperately needs that information."

"I'm recommending that you, the one who has sought to hold the marriage together, now choose your words more carefully too. It is as though you and your mate have been involved in a table game with him hiding his cards and you permitting yours to be seen. This has given the independent partner more information than he should have had, especially about the pain you are experiencing. It is time to be more discreet. No more should you reveal your every thought and plan."

"It is important during this time of crisis not to do predictable things. Having lived with you for years, your partner has you analyzed to a tee. He knows what bugs you, what makes you laugh, and what makes you cry. He has memorized all your little 'prerecorded' phrases that sprinkle your conversation. My advice is that you change these tapes. Don't offer suggestions when you would typically do so. Don't be predictable!"

"Your purpose, you see, is to convince this man that events are swirling out of control and may take him in directions he has not anticipated. The old rules don't apply. And why is this new mystery advantageous? Because one of the reasons your lover has lost interest in the relationship is that the challenge is gone. It's become so monotonous and routine. Hence, you would be wise to turn the whole thing upside down."

Finally:

"An interesting thing happens when this kind of quiet confidence suddenly replaces tears and self-pity. Curiousity infects the aloof party, and he begins to probe for details. For the first time in months, perhaps, he's coming your way. He's saying 'You seem different tonight,' and 'I hope you're beginning to get over our problems'. He's baiting you to find out what's going on inside. It is uncomfortable for him to observe that changes are occurring which he neither controls nor understands. Tell him nothing. She *needs* to wonder."

It goes on to say that despite your partner's stoic appearance, he will be wrestling with feelings of guilt and self-doubt. There is still a tiny spark for you there, and you have to give it space to kick up into a flame versus smothering it and snuffing it out.

Hope that helps

Accuray

[mncwng]

many thanks accuray!! i've printed out your posts so that i can reference them each time i need a reminder...

i've read 5LL (i know that H's primary ll's are acts of service & words of affirmation). i plan on getting the other books & reading those soon.

i think you're absolutely right - to a certain extent, i'd been making the 180's "for H" instead of "for myself". thinking about it this way makes it a bit easier to think in terms of being detached i think...like i can make these changes and not be so tied to getting a certain reaction from h.

you also really hit the nail on the head with:

It is also possible that there is no real interest left in the relationship. In my experience, the only way to truly determine how much, if any, caring a distancer has for his pursuing partner is for her to stop pursuing. If he cares for her, after the initial reaction against the nonpursuit, he will start pursuing her. If he does not care enough, he will move on to something or someone else. The question of whether or not their partner cares for them haunts pursuers unceasingly. They may dread finding the answer, which will be evident when the pursuer has successfully stopped pursuing and the distancer doesn't pursue her. It is extremely painful for a pursuer to find out, after all that time, that her partner really doesn't love her after all. However, after the initial shock, it can be very liberating to finally know the reality and be able to make decisions based on that knowledge."

i think this is what i'm most afraid of...that at the end of the day, h realizes that he didn't really love me after all and that leaving is the right choice and that he won't come back. but then again, say this is true, why would i want someone that doesn't want me? i guess this plays into my fears that perhaps i'm just not lovable if h rejects me. its irrational, i know, but if i'm honest with myself, this is my biggest fear.

i'm still not down with all the acronyms .... MC = marriage counseling?

again, THANKS so much for taking the time to provide us with such invaluable insight!

[mncwng]

sending some good thoughts your way, ptc!

i'm can so relate with the having expectations thing...it's like just when i've reached a new level of detachment, H starts getting nicer again, and then I start thinking things are better and having more expectations. such a vicious cycle! its so great to see this dynamic spelled out though, isnt it? it really helps me get things in perspective in terms of being prepared for the next time...trying to NOT have expectations and being to tied up to what H is thinking/doing/not doing, etc...

Wow.....accuray the pursuer/pursued info above described my H to the "T" and it echoed his many comments when leaving. More importanty, like mncwng, my H is being nicer and it has made me have expectations again...textbook! Is this from one of the books you mentioned?

Thanks again for your time in sharing it with us "newbies."

Thinking of you mcnwng...we are all in this together!

[Accuray]

i think this is what i'm most afraid of...that at the end of the day, h realizes that he didn't really love me after all and that leaving is the right choice and that he won't come back. but then again, say this is true, why would i want someone that doesn't want me? i guess this plays into my fears that perhaps i'm just not lovable if h rejects me. its irrational, i know, but if i'm honest with myself, this is my biggest fear.

This is what you and everyone else here is most afraid of (including me by the way).

There are two ways to try to deal with this insecurity -- one is to pursue, convince, manipulate, plead, etc. In my opinion, MC (or marriage counseling) falls into this category after the bomb has dropped. This is the logical path that everyone starts out on because it makes the most apparent sense -- it "feels right". You're doing something to try to save your marriage, which is better than doing nothing.

The other path is to make it clear you'd like to save the marriage and are open to working together on reconciliation, and then head the other direction. Become the best person you can be. Find ways to make yourself feel loveable and in control that don't involve your H. Do some volunteer work, take a class, get a new job, get in shape, learn to play an instrument, etc. If you go off and achieve your own happiness, you feel better, and you are more attractive. If H doesn't come back, you'll STILL feel better, and you're in a better place to pursue something new.

The second path, the path of distance and self-improvement, is the one that works, but it is counter-intuitive and oh so hard. It's easy to kid yourself that you're doing it when you're not, but you really do have to "fake it until you make it" and discard your excuses one by one. This takes weeks to months to pull off. It's a goal that you set for yourself, and you pursue it. You know you'll make mistakes, but that's ok, you pick yourself up and keep going.

It's only when H starts to believe that you're not going to be there anymore that path number two is going to have the desired effect. Because he knows you so well, you can't fake it. You pretty much have to be there for it to be credible.

So what can you do for yourself? What are some things that you can do to help you feel better about yourself that don't involve H? Make a list.

Accuray

[Accuray]

(Also, that fear that H realizes he didn't love you after all? The path of pursuit is more likely to lead to that conclusion than the path of distance. The more you can detach, the MORE H will miss you and recall fond memories. The more you pursue, the more he'll focus on the negative. Give him space -- it works)

[mncwng]

yeah, i think at this point, i've figured out that #1 doesnt work....i wish i'd discovered the 37 rules sooner, cuz at that point, i'd already done everything it said i wasn't supposed to do! i even suggested MC immediately after the bomb, and though H didn't agree to MC, he did agree to talk to a family member who is really good at giving marriage advice. even though that person had given us many good points/suggestions, H refused to be swayed. i would imagine the same would have happened in MC.

re: the 2nd path - makes so much sense. i liked how you said that we need to make it clear we want to work on the marriage and then head in the other direction. i'd been kind of struggling with this cuz on the one hand if i want to "work" on the marriage, backing off doesn't seem to jibe with that, especially if H doesn't seem to be getting closer after i've backed off. then again, this goes back to detaching and not getting invested in how h responds/ not responds. so hard though!!

in terms of GAL, i've been hanging out with my friends and family during the weekends, and its been so great in helping cheer me up. when i first started getting away for the weekends, it felt such a relief to be around people who loved me instead of feeling like i was walking on eggshells all the time.

in the near future (after the d is settled since h plans on getting this all resolved by end of april, and i'll be pretty busy at work until then), i plan to take up piano again, and also learn a new instrument (thinking about learning the bass and or violin); maybe some cooking classes; volunteering at a senior center nearby; getting more involved in my church.

in terms of personal growth, i want to start being more organized in general. i'd like to have a clean/organized home thats decorated the way i like. i'd also like to possibly branch out into a career that is more "me."

if i dont let myself get too overwhelmed by the idea of "losing H" for good and the fear of possibly being alone forever, the future doesn't seem so bad. i'm actually looking forward to doing all of the above and emerging from this as the person i've always wanted to be. i just need to keep the anxiety & negative thoughts at bay.

This is what you and everyone else here is most afraid of (including me by the way).

There are two ways to try to deal with this insecurity -- one is to pursue, convince, manipulate, plead, etc. In my opinion, MC (or marriage counseling) falls into this category after the bomb has dropped. This is the logical path that everyone starts out on because it makes the most apparent sense -- it "feels right". You're doing something to try to save your marriage, which is better than doing nothing.

The other path is to make it clear you'd like to save the marriage and are open to working together on reconciliation, and then head the other direction. Become the best person you can be. Find ways to make yourself feel loveable and in control that don't involve your H. Do some volunteer work, take a class, get a new job, get in shape, learn to play an instrument, etc. If you go off and achieve your own happiness, you feel better, and you are more attractive. If H doesn't come back, you'll STILL feel better, and you're in a better place to pursue something new.

The second path, the path of distance and self-improvement, is the one that works, but it is counter-intuitive and oh so hard. It's easy to kid yourself that you're doing it when you're not, but you really do have to "fake it until you make it" and discard your excuses one by one. This takes weeks to months to pull off. It's a goal that you set for yourself, and you pursue it. You know you'll make mistakes, but that's ok, you pick yourself up and keep going.

It's only when H starts to believe that you're not going to be there anymore that path number two is going to have the desired effect. Because he knows you so well, you can't fake it. You pretty much have to be there for it to be credible.

So what can you do for yourself? What are some things that you can do to help you feel better about yourself that don't involve H? Make a list.

Accuray

[mncwng]

also at this point, if h seems deadset on wanting a d to see if he can be fulfilled/ happy on his own, it doesnt seem as though any of my GAL/Db efforts will stop the D, and i need to accept that.

so i think the answer is to just continue path #2, "let H go" via D with as little pursuit as possible in the meantime, and then continue further along on path #2/ detaching, knowing that if anything, this will be the key to either H returning in the future/ me becoming happier with my life with or without H....so i think i understand what i need to do now? just need to start aligning my actions to what i now "know"...

[Accuray]

Good for you! Easier said than done, so don't expect to do it perfectly. The point on being willing to work on reconciliation, is that you're not willing to work on it alone. You're willing to work on it ONLY when H is willing to work on it with you, and makes that clear and believable to you.

Accuray

[ptcr]

Thanks to you both for your insight...it is so helpful to see spelled out again, and again, and again. I am going with path number 2 as I can tell you that path number 1 did me NO good at all for 5 months....too bad got the DB book after bomb number 2!!!!

So much appreciation to you both for your time and insight. Long day with H and S16 and S18. Will post in the morning on my thread the details of my loooong day.

BTW - found excerpts of that book Solo Partner. Wow, wow, wow. Incredibly on topic.