So much to say, So little room

[AJM]

I for one don't wish that bubble to burst for my ex. I wish her well. I'm pretty sure she won't have any troubles except with the kids and her relationship with them. There's scarring there.

I think to add to K's post, the justification comes with the selfishness. The "what about me" concept. Once started, they have to finish that train of thought and it leaves no room for anyone else. They'll just have to adjust and move on. They'll be "ok" since so many others do it too In some ways they are right if you overlook a few things such as the emotional scars the kids get left with, the emotional destruction, the blended families, the divided families, and so on...


AJ

[Queen_of_Swords]

She has three months to “not disrupt the kids during the school year”, as she puts it. Three months. Feels like a long time to wait for her to take a step after the past two years. If she wants out – get out. If she wants in, then I have to find a way for us to work together because I can’t do it alone anymore…….

Well, it seems you and I are in the same place. I too am waiting to see what decision H. makes about making an effort to salvage what we have or continuing down the road to D. I need a finish line/closure.

As for this my friend:

- She said exactly: “I deserve to be happy and I’m not getting any younger”

I totally get what your spouse is getting at. I will pass on my insight to further your understanding.

It's really hard on us women to see our deterioration in the mirror.
Our looks/youth have been our currency in life for a long time. That's just the way it is. Young, curvacious, with thick lustrous hair and clear, unwrinkled skin has always been desired. We're sold that image constantly in media ,and men certainly make it plain that's what they like, at least initially.
A woman at middle age loses that, she becomes invisible. That attention is gone. For some it's a relief, for others it's a loss.

As for the happiness...you choose that. Happiness from the outside in never lasts long. They did research that shows the high from a new purchase fades after 2 weeks or something like that. The only happiness that lasts is that from the inside out and that takes self-esteeem, and the ability to love yourself.

Your wife hasn't yet figured out she needs to learn to love who she is. Neither has my H.

You can help there though if that is your choice.
Affirm her every opportunity you see. Not a phony one. A genuine from the heart one. At first it may irritate her. As you continue to affirm her goodness/attractiveness/ positive choices, she will come to believe a bit more in herself. You know her, both the good and the bad.

Hope this helps you in some small way.

[RoofTop]

QS and AJ - Yes, there's more I've left out, but mostly because I get long winded. I guess that comes from being more internal with my thought process and not so chatty.

I do enjoy people, but like S12, I tend to need to warm up to people first before I can start to be more forthcoming in conversation. Sometimes it's my low tolerance for B.S. and since I've been more mindful of trying not to be critical of anyone or anything, I've noticed how much more other people complain about stuff that doesn't really matter.

I had stepped up the efforts to be more mindful of the effort she puts into her personal maintenance over the past two years. I wasn't always a handsy kind of guy and I tend to keep my inner freak in the closet until I can let him out.

I wasn't always the best gift giver. I'd always been a really creative type, but somewhere the reality of living check-to-check sucked a bit of life out of me. So instead of taking better care of those I care the most about, I was more concerned with just getting a moment to relax.

It's true that we learn from our parents. I don't know my father and my mother had to make due with her own means of supporting us. She was always working so I've often wondered if my work ethic was how I conveyed my love for my family. I'm pretty sure that was part of what built up my stress. I was trying so hard to make it at a difficult job and I couldn't shake the feeling that I was going to lose that job and my W and kids would be homeless. I've since learned that that was my anxiety doing that to me. I have better control of my actions and surroundings now and have embraced time with the kids as well as juggling time between work and school. It's more of a load than I'd ever handled my whole life, but I think I'm doing okay. At least my anxiety seems to be in check, I don't stress out much anymore.

I'm still juggling the whole thing about talking to my W about my displeasure with her decision. I know I'll have to say something soon enough so I'm still working through the Switzerland (neutral) approach to someone who doesn't much care what I think. I want, so very much, for her to experience what it is that she believes she will with her new life. "IF" we are ever to be together in the end, we can never be anything until her restless soul has settled down. It's why I haven't told her about my diagnosis for having tested positive for cancer. If anything, there's no reason to tell her about it yet anyway since I'm still awaiting the "second" opinion. A positive result is a positive result, but I'm still waiting to hear if there's going to be more involved than just cutting it out. If there is more to it, then that would mean it's a nasty situation to be in. I have no answers yet, so no need to get bent out of shape over it.

Back to the other matter....

I feel like she has to find her way. Just because she's been "civil" to me doesn't mean she hasn't played by the MLC rules. I chalk it up to me just being a bit more fortunate than so many others in these forums. If she is going to find her way, I feel like she has to believe that all that I've done these past few years is real and know what it's like for me to not be around. I'm conditioned at this point to being used to not seeing her for a day or two at a time or for more than a few hours in the evening. She's been a bit full of resentment towards me and knowing I'm home when she gets there is probably that much more unbearable for her.

I'm still in the flux though. Others are answering my question in regards to the MLC playbook and how it applies to post move-out. So many similarities, but twice as many different outcomes. I've got plans for this weekend with the in-laws. I'm not looking forward to it, but that's because it will be the first time I will have seen them since my W moved out. I'm still not sure how much they know, but it seems I'm the one to learn about things last anyway. I don't want to talk about it, so we'll see what we see. This is followed up by my B in-laws wedding in a few weeks. It really is an honor to have been asked to be a part of the wedding party, but I really don't want to be there. I'm happy for them, but as I've said before, I don't want to be around my W right now. I'll put my happy face on for everyone, but it's hard not to feel like the elephant in the closet. Due to my personal obligations the morning after the wedding, if I'm not taking the kids home with me then I'm hoping I get an opportunity to get out of dodge before everyone wakes up for breakfast. I don't like feeling like I'm being watched and the past few "family" get togethers, I would catch my W looking at me across the room and it wasn't a happy look.

The Big Guy upstairs will let me know one way of the other. He hasn't stopped the dreams where my W is irritated with me, but I guess he's keeping me conditioned for detachment. I can't really say, but I'll be doing a lot of praying the week of the wedding. I want to skip town uber early, but not look like an obvious cop-out. Not sure if it will even work out in my favor, but I will see I guess. I'm so tired of feeling sub-human.

[AJM]

Sorry to hear about the diagnosis. I hope it turns out very well.

One thing that stands out from that? How about taking care of you the way you took care of others in the past? Sounds like you do for the kids.

The other thought?

So instead of taking better care of those I care the most about, I was more concerned with just getting a moment to relax.

And? So you're saying you did the best you could with what you knew and... ? I'm not sure if I'm missing something here or if that's what you were conveying?

It's true that we learn from our parents. I don't know my father and my mother had to make due with her own means of supporting us. She was always working so I've often wondered if my work ethic was how I conveyed my love for my family. I'm pretty sure that was part of what built up my stress. I was trying so hard to make it at a difficult job and I couldn't shake the feeling that I was going to lose that job and my W and kids would be homeless.

Yes we do. Know that your kids are learning even know. I learned a lot from my mother before she died of cancer when I was a teenager. The things I learned in those years have carried with me and have seen me through some tough times. But I see in you the desire to make a better life for you and your family. Nothing wrong with that. I see something else. Is it possible that your W didn't help you with the stress in some way? Like maybe she was not a real partner in much of your marriage? I know if I go back and look honestly and objectively, mine wasn't as much as I wanted her to be. It's why when she left I didn't curl up into the fetal position and have to learn how to cook, clean, tend the house, work, raise the kids, etc. I was already doing all of that and then some. But more than that, I look back and see how much she worked against me as much as supported. Is that similar by chance?

It was important only because I needed to understand I wasn't always being honest with myself. What's done is done. That's not a big deal and I'm an adult. But it does play into my own growth. The honesty with myself.

Stay positive. I think you have a lot of the right ideas, but need more time to work through and test/live them.

Life's short by the way. If you don't want to be somewhere, then don't. But keep in mind this is what she wanted. You have nothing to feel uncomfortable about and are more likely to be wanted there than she is. It took me a little while to realize that and it really helped when I had to attend family functions with her family (for my kids). I was at ease. She wasn't. But I was and so were my kids and that was what counts

AJ

[RoofTop]

AJ - You aren't missing anything, just not putting the pieces together.

Did I do the best I could with the tools I had? Maybe. I have to look real hard through the guilt to see that I really wasn't as bad as bad as I think.

But...with that said. It's not so much a question of was my wife a partner, but was I? I know I could have been so much better. Heck I've been proving it everyday for a few years now. My W has always been a busy body and all the things I used to do for myself, I kind of got used to her doing them. Including paying bills she didn't have the money for. I have a lot of pent up guilt over that. She has plenty of reasons for going into MLC. The triggers, that I can see, were when she lost close friendships and started new ones with others who were angry with their hunsbands. The biggest difference between those guys and me was I treated my W as an equal and not a piece of property. None of that matters though when you find a common bond. Kind of like how cults get started.

Anywho, so my W would do all the cooking. I tried for a while, but she's a much better cook and doesn't much like what I make most of the time so I kind of gave up. Granted I never was able to offer much assistance as to what I wanted for dinner. Funny thing there is that I find I'm always asking the kids what they want and they give me the same response I gave my W - I don't know. I can see now how frustrating that can be when you just want to do something without having to think after a long day.

I wasn't a big cleaner. I helped when she asked, but rarely did more than vacuum or clean the hardwood floors without being asked. I did laundry, but rarely put the clean clothes away. I have a mild side of ADD so I've always been able to keep a job, but I was often worried about taking risks so I didn't really start advancing in my career until about 3 years ago. And I can't always say I was the best person to raise my kids. S12 has ADHD and he and I often would butt heads, which would often force my W to referee. On her limited income, my W was responsible for gift giving year round and I was severely lacking in the "consideration" department. Most all my money went to big bills like the mortgage and car(s) payments and the kids tavel sport activities. It doesn't mean I couldn't have done something, I just wasn't always consistent.

All this stuff adds up on a person. So again, I get that she was going into MLC at some point or another and that I was helping her get there. I also have claimed that my W going into MLC rescued me from me. I'm far better equipped today as a human being than I ever was in my life. My W has acknowledge that and her entire family gets that. But you can't just turn around and come to the negotiating table with your enemy and I see how my wife would look at reconciling with me as her doing all the work "again" and me reaping all the rewards.

I have to prove myself somehow. It's coming. I don't know what it will be or when, but it's coming. I'm not talking so much about proving anything to my wife, I'm talking about proving it to myself. Two years of MLC, two years of building repetition into my life to make positive thoughts/actions permanent. Something's missing still and it's kind of making me restless in a VERY non-MLC way.

I think the reason I didn't curl into a ball is that I always knew what I had in me and I have a habit of rising to a challenge.

[dl443322]

Hi Rt. Just wanted to run a couple things by you.

I hear you on the guilt about not being the best h you could have been. I wasnt the best wife all the time I could have been.

Here's the thing. After beating myself up good and long, I started to realize a few things.

I asked myself, did I intentionally try to hurt my h or my marriage? Did I realize the things I was doing at the time and choose to do them anyway?

The answer for me was no I did not. Had I known better, I would have done better and I forgave myself.

Because the thing about guilt is that is weighs you down. It saps energy better spent on becoming who you want to be.

So, use the knowledge you now have to do that. Not out of guilt, not for your wife or her family, but for you.

When you become the person you were meant to be for real a couple of things happen.

You realize the you need to let go of the guilt because it is no longer serving you well. You become more confident and confident. And that is what you want your wife to see. Someone with courage, strength and dignity.

So, use the guilt to propel you forward. Take the information you have learned and use it. Then let the guilt wash over you and let it go.

[dl443322]

oops, should say more confident and strong.

[AJM]

I get it Arty. I'm just trying to play the devil's advocate in some of this. I'm interacting to "see" the real you and where you head is at. I see all kinds of emotions in your writing. I see some things I think you could do better, such as not avoiding the conflict. Maybe its the guilt that's holding you back? I don't know. I'm asking the questions, but I see that you are behind a wall of your own building. I see your W seeing through your comments and not having much respect for you because of it. That's just what I see in the echo you show us. Could easily be more and likely there is. Emotions are something we have to work through, but they can be tough some times.

I'm also guilty of looking at things through my own lens of experience. My experience was very different. Did my wife referee sometimes? You bet. So did I. Did I cook, clean, help out around the house? Absolutely. I participated the whole time in EVERYTHING. Did I do it the way she wanted? Not always and neither did she do things all the time the way I would like. Big deal; that's life.

She still left. She still blamed me (after trying really hard to think of a reason after the fact).

Was I perfect? Not by a long shot. Lots of things I can improve on and have. Does it matter? Absolutely.

Did I do my best every step of the way? And then some..

The result is the same. She blames me (not for everything any longer I suspect, but don't really know.)

What I'm getting at is that this is her trip regardless. I agree with Brookie: own your parts and let it wash over you. The sooner the better. Some things you'll change. Some things you may not. But I think we all go through the evaluation like it or not I looked back and I'm happy with me and my choices knowing I did the best I could with what I knew at the time. Would I change anything? Not really. There were a few things I did change for me because I didn't like them. But they were mostly minor adjustments except my reactions to her in the family dynamic. Those were much bigger changes that I made for me since I didn't like them.

Then I moved ahead. I stopped looking back at mistakes (or learning opportunities) and looked at the bigger picture. She wasn't happy, but it wasn't about me per se. It was sudden and it was likely triggered by her stress and then the loss of her nephew and her new friends. Which came first? Doesn't matter. It was not about me when all was said and done.

I suspect the same in your case. You are not perfect and you may have contributed to stress in her life. But you could have given her everything and it would have been something else that triggered it.

If you're that bad a person that hurt her so much, why be friends again? Why not take the kids and run away?

You can't be perfect enough?

That's what I see in your posts.

But back to you. Good work on working on yourself. On being a better dad, on changing what you saw as problems with yourself and liking you for it.

Just more thoughts to see. Maybe I am also missing something with you?

AJ

[RoofTop]

You're seeing that I can't be perfect enough. I see truth in that, but I don't know why or where. I have repressed feelings, but I'm not sure what feelings I'm locking in. I want to expose those feelings and deal with them once and for all, I'm just not sure how to do it.

Who am I being perfect for? I don't know. I just read TadPole's post that he just found out his XW is getting married. It made me very uncomfortable and that makes me think I'm still holding on to hope that one day my W will come back. I have a lot of things in my favor, but I'm thinking my skin is much thinner and transparent than I had thought.

I was further un-nerved when I got an email from the insurance company to call them. My W is speeding full steam ahead and there appears to have been a change to the account that indicates a change in marital status.

I keep reading the same stuff over and over again about us being in control of ourselves. That we dictate our own happiness and that our MLC spouse has no feelings for us - well nothing along the lines of the way we feel about them. Like everything else I encounter, it seems I have to find something inside that flips my internal switch. I hear everyone in these forums, both new posters and veterans, but what seems so simple a concept, is so hard to really get. Make myself happy, I'm still letting my W dictate how I feel every hour of every day. I pray every day for guidance. Right now I'm a leaf in the wind, but I want to stop and plant roots.

I'm not looking for another W, I'm looking for someone that I can talk too and not think about my W. I think that realistically I'm desperate to meet anyone that doesn't know either of us so I can just be me, but with no disclaimers about what's happened in my life recently.

I've learned through paying attention to various events throughout my life that if you're looking for something, you'll never find it and anything worth finding will find you. That doesn't just apply to people relationships, but everything in life. It's okay to work hard for what you want, but if it doesn't happen for you, chances are it wasn't meant to be.

I've lived with that mantra over the last year, realizing I had forgotten it over the years. I don't want to "find" anybody, but it would be nice to be someone who was found. It's hard even now to let go of any hope that we'll find each other again, my W and I. I look back on my life with her, and what I've been able to accomplish since MLC and I often find myself wondering if I "was" found - by my W and not the other way around.

So I constantly ponder, are we meant to be? Am I really the best equipped to become the person my W was destined to be with and if so, is all this a predetermined course that I must travel if we're going to be together? I know that my actions are speaking louder than words and everything I do or say will make/break any future. She says she deserves to be happy and that she isn't getting any younger, so what happens when she finally realizes that she's not turning back the clock at all like she thinks she is.

So where is my hope coming from? I can't tell if it's superficial or just plain denial. I'm thinking denial, but then maybe that's why I'm more desperate than I lead on to meet new people. I don't know that I'll have the answers I'm looking for until I can at least change course at least a fraction of an inch. I'm hoping then that I'll truly understand how easy it really is to dictate my own level of happiness.

I really want so bad to let go, because I fear the possibility of my W telling me she's getting married. And that tells me I haven't let go and that I'm still holding onto a pipe dream.

[AJM]

Maybe it would help to look at things differently? If you were dating, and this happened, would you just shrug it off and wish her well? Could it be that you are holding on to what *should have* been? What *you were promised*?

Because there is no *should have been* as much as there *is*. Promises come from imperfect beings and may be well intentioned, but aren't often followed through on. That's how it *is* (not being cynical. Showing how to accept what is vs what should have been).

I'm not looking for another W, I'm looking for someone that I can talk too and not think about my W. I think that realistically I'm desperate to meet anyone that doesn't know either of us so I can just be me, but with no disclaimers about what's happened in my life recently.

You don't need somebody else to be yourself, do you? Those are two very distinct desires you are expressing if you ask me.

I know that my actions are speaking louder than words and everything I do or say will make/break any future. She says she deserves to be happy and that she isn't getting any younger, so what happens when she finally realizes that she's not turning back the clock at all like she thinks she is.

Then she gets to wonder if she made the right choice. You won't be there by the time that happens. In fact, I think the irony is that if you were there, she might not ever get there.

You can't go on that ride.

But since you know that your actions speak very loudly, perhaps you don't know what they say from her perspective? Perhaps you aren't accepting that this is not about you, so you're talking to a foreigner in a typical American way - louder. Possibly in hopes they'll get it? But they don't. They do and they don't. They do get it, but they won't change anything because of it.

As I recall, tomorrow is not promised to anyone. If you worry about tomorrow, you'll do two things: 1) wear yourself out and 2) show your W what a liar you are by your actions. You'll still be doing things for her and that's a lie aimed at manipulation. I wouldn't like that either...

I really want so bad to let go, because I fear the possibility of my W telling me she's getting married. And that tells me I haven't let go and that I'm still holding onto a pipe dream.

It's not as bad as you think. There comes a point where you don't want them back. You are heading there even now. Like watching a train wreck, you have to watch but you begin to back away further and further. Until one day, you are actually glad that she is getting married and getting what she asked for. You don't want anything from them except to be left alone by them. Since she wants to be "friends" you have a long way to go. She wants you to accept her and her choices and accept the blame. You don't seem to want to do those things... go figure. But at some point, you won't care any longer. You'll want to be you more than you want to be what she wants. You'll see her differently. You won't be attracted to her. You won't be repulsed either necessarily. You'll be ambivalent. And you'll be you and wondering why you wasted so much time on her. You may even come back and pay forward the help you received here.

It does happen. You cannot make it different. You don't need nor want, to be an a?*. You want to focus on you and be the best dad and person you can be. Flaws and all....

AJ