Separation at 17.5 months

[adinva]

Cat04, I'm not sure if you read all of my posts. You took a bunch of quotes from a very painful moment for me, and ignored the working through that I did after that day. I'm not all the way there, but I believe I did note here that I learned I was feeling hurt and lashing out as a diversion. To go back to the lashing out as if it's a fixed part of my personality is missing the point.

Your interpretation of my posts seems to imply that there's no difference between working through anger here and saying these things to my H. I disagree.

I'm learning to recognize what hurt feels like and how to handle it, in therapy and through reading and practice, to replace a longstanding defense mechanism of anger and opposition. You probably work through some mixed up feelings when you feel hurt too; I believe that's normal. The end result, what you communicate or choose not to communicate back to the other person, is the important thing. THAT is very different now for me than it was a year ago.

I appreciate if you're writing in to try to help me change somehow. I write a lot here and most of it goes unremarked other than by my friends. If there are other vets out there reading and thinking to themselves all this time and she just doesn't change at all, well, please, I'd appreciate real help.

I understand that your life has other priorities than helping me. But you jump in a couple of times a year to say nope, you haven't changed, and I do not see the point.

In the face of this kind of feedback I feel hopeless. Honestly you have every right not to think much of me and it's your prerogative to criticize my efforts, but I'm not sure why you would want to come here and spend time doing that.

If you have any actual ideas for me to try differently, I would listen to them.

[adinva]

Another thought, since you seem to have struck a nerve.

My H is tossing me away because my efforts are worthless and I'm no good. I'm finding my own value and standing on my own in spite of that crushing hurt.

Here you are tossing my posts here away and suggesting my efforts are worthless and I'm still no good. I also disagree with you and found your words crushing anyway.

I've got to try to heal from what happened to my marriage and even though it's extremely painful I've been open to whatever constructive criticism I could get here. I try really hard not to just brush it off but to take it in and observe whether there's some good I can take from it. But it still hurts, and it hurts a lot.

[scaredsilly]

((((ad))))
So sorry you're feeling so bad now. Sometimes our hopelessness seems endless, our efforts a waste.

Take what you need from here and put aside what you don't need or agree with. I know my opinions have been rejected before on here but I really meant well.

We are all on here to get and give help.

[Accuray]

I have read all of your posts since the beginning, and I believe cat04 has misjudged you here based on a venting post I think you needed. That said, anytime anyone challenges us here its probably a good thing, even if we critically evaluate their feedback and decide it doesn't reflect what we need.

My $0.02 is that you have made *huge* progress with your changes and if anything you have been too patient and too accommodating in the face of zero reciprocation for your efforts. After 18 months if the WAS continues to impart emotional anguish and you are satisfied with your progress its probably time to conclude this isn't working and time to do something different. In this case I think you're doing the right thing by dropping the rope and telling your parents and the kids.

Not that 18 months is some magic number -- for you, in your sitch, I think it's time to change things up.

People stike a nerve for one of two reasons, either they are dead on in their analysis of something that is a blind spot for you, or they are off target and selling you way short. It's up to us to decide which it is and if its the second case don't dwell on it. Their contribution shows care even if its off target.

I posted about my sitch on another forum and a woman was making generalizations about what a terrible husband I must be and making all kinds of assumptions, and when I didn't acknowledge and agree with all her points she called me disrespectful. It made me crazy mad initially because I knew in my heart I was not the horrible husband she was portaying me to be, but it was also a learning opportunity to understand that she was not trying to hurt me on purpose.

Accuray

[NLW]

Yikes, Ad

FWIW, I think it's often very hard to strike the right note with suggestions for change on here.
Sometimes I fear that what I say will be taken as too harsh or as critical as well, when what i'm trying to do is to communicate something that I see as potentially very important.

I understand how hard you have been doing it and I am routinely inspired by how you go about things and the sorts of insights you have about yourself.

I can't speak for you, obviously, but I found Cat's comments really hit home for me. I mean the following type of thing.

While I don’t condone your H’s behaviors, I can understand them a bit.

Maybe you have changed, maybe you are very different from who you were before the bomb. I don’t know because I don’t know you.

What I see in your writing, is still a lot of attempts to control the situation and a lot of judgement with little compassion. As well as you still giving him your power.

How much have you really changed?

I think that's just the sort of question that my stbx is likely to be continually mulling over.

Cat's detailed descriptions of how it might seem to our hs - that we are still trying to control things - really made me think about how i am interacting with him and whether I have changed all that much.

I know it's hard to hear that others can't see the effort we've put into something that is the most important thing in our lives, but I figure that there will be no harsher critic of our efforts than our Hs, and i think Cat was trying to give this perspective.

In this sense, for me at least, i can see that it might be time for me to do something different. Cause as much as i think I've changed - for me - from stbx's perspective, it's still pretty much 'more of the same' with a slim veneer of 'consideration/niceness' thrown in. And under the circumstances, he's right to be suspicious.

Please know that I admire you very much and only want to help out if I can.

Best NLW.

[Sweetbriar]

Ad..we should plan that get together...we both could use the support!! Let me know...Im up for coffee anytime:)

SB

[cat04]

Ad,

I have actually read each and every one of your threads.

It helps me to see patterns of behavior, in thoughts and deeds.

I see you trying to be very emotionally controlled. I see a moral compass within you that is very inflexible. I see you always trying to do the "right" thing, for everyone else.

If I can see those things, I have to wonder what people who are close to you see.

While you may not think that I am trying to help you, that I am simply picking on you, you couldn't be farther from the truth.

Why does it take what I say to you to get a genuine emotional response? Why does it take that for you to let it out?

These boards are for venting and working through things. As well as recording our actions and reactions to things.

You come here, report on your actions and interactions and everyone validates what a good job you are doing. How well you handle things. That isn't a bad thing. You are a very strong woman. You are handling this with all of the reason and logic that most people can't muster.

I had actually hoped that you would come back and call me a b!tch. You came close.

I want to know how you really feel about things. I want to know what storm is brewing just under the surface. I want you to type without thinking about how to word something. I want you to start to actually feel your feelings about this. As well as other areas of your life.

You don't seem to allow yourself that luxury. And that keeps you stuck to a degree.

One of the biggest, most important lessons I learned from this is "the only way to do it, is through it."

You have to feel your feelings. You have to embrace them. And I don't really see that. I see you attempting to understand them, to rationalize them, but I don't see you feeling them.

I am sorry if you feel that I was saying your efforts are worthless. That is not what I was saying at all. Your efforts are impressive.

One of the first things we are told when we come here is that there are no guarantees.

You could have flown to the moon and painted it purple and it may or may not have changed anything in your sitch.

That is the sucky part of all of this.

And you are angry that it hasn't changed anything. And that is ok.

What are you going to do with it?

[nhmom]

Ad,

I have seen a lot of progress in how you've handled the situation and yourself throughout the months. It's not worthless at all. As our #1 priority is to work on ourselves without having any intention for the H or W to notice our changes and growth, we cannot help but hope that the changes will be noticed...for the better.

IMO, the reason why your H doesn't seem like he's budged even an millimeter is because of your current living arrangement. It is his choice to stay at home, in the marital bedroom. He feels negatively about it. The reason why he goes out a lot is to avoid being in the same house with you. He has all the possible armor on right now. My H would do the same. He hated being around me so much. And when you are dealing with a person who causes their stomachs to turn at the sheer sight of us, seeing any kind of acknowledgement of improvements on our end is pretty much impossible.

I think you'd have higher chances of any progress or movement if he actually moved out, at least out of the bedroom. It would also be much easier on you emotionally if you didn't have to wonder if he'd come to bed every night.

I don't understand why he had his heart set on signing a separation agreement before he moves out (at least out of the bedroom).

I also wanted to comment on you taking the time to go over the separation agreement with H, line by line, trying to understand what everything means. There is so much room for misinterpretation and unnecessary disagreements/fighting later on that you can potentially prevent by doing this now.

(((Ad))) Hugs to you and your family!

[adinva]

Cat04 it was nice of you to respond, and I was hoping you would. I feel mad when I think someone is putting me down here rather than providing something constructive. This time you gave me more specifically what you were looking for.

I also appreciate you balancing constructive criticism with some words of affirmation. That reduces my defensiveness a lot.

I question whether I've really changed too. But I think and respond and feel differently. My world is less egocentric than it was. My eyes have been opened to a lot of other perspectives, starting with H's and my kids' and extending to people I work with and interact with elsewhere. However, I won't ever say I'm satisfied with my changes and am all done.

Every time I am forced to think about what's different in me now than earlier in my marriage, it reinforces my learning and cements it.

I know about myself that I'm uncomfortable when I don't feel a sense of control over events in my life. But I do not control my H. I control what I'm going to say and do in relation to him. His response, actions, feelings are up to him. I hope he understands that someday.

I could have flown to the moon and painted it purple, and if I read in a book that it would save my marriage, I would have done it. But my H and I both went a certain distance away from each other. I could have thrown dishes at him and screamed and cried some more, and it would have made the end of my marriage more certain and quick. All I could do was come back to the center point and see if H would meet me there. I accept that I'm disappointed that he did not. I did what I could and feel better because of it.

When I get closer to the raw emotions of this sitch, my brain wants to help me out by assigning blame outside of me and hurling insults around. You should have heard what it was saying before I revised my post to you. Although this forum is anonymous, there's still a censor in me that stops me from saying things that I can't feel good about myself having said.

In my posts here and in my small FB group I have challenged my H's manhood, honor, sexuality, sanity, and common sense in my fits of rage. But in the end he's going to do what he has to and I've got to pick up the pieces and go on. There's a lot I keep bottled up because I feel such responsibility for the health of my kids. If there hadn't been kids I might have told him 10 years ago to hit the road when he strayed the first time.

I live by the principle that I do what is the greatest good and do what it takes to make that be what I want to do. My dad was a big influence and integrity and cheerfulness in duty were huge to him as they are to me. I watch him smile at my mom while taking her to the 1,000th doctor's appointment this week and patiently explain to her three times in a row who's coming for dinner tomorrow night, tell her what she likes to order at Friendly's. The love and trust that shines back at him from her eyes is so sweet. He does not do what might be easier for him, he wants to do what is right and it's impossible to tell if he wanted it first or if it was right first.

I live like that too. I don't think that's a bad thing. If it was I don't think I would like the alternative.

My sitch has deteriorated from trying to save my marriage to trying to make sure I don't get cheated and my kids don't get abused. My H and his problems and sadness are no longer my primary concern at the moment. He's on his own to figure them out and I am setting boundaries to ensure that my kids and I are given common decency and respect in our home.

I love him and sympathize with the struggle he's experiencing, and at the same time I know he's not getting any better dragging this out. He really needs to go, and he really needs to find out what he wants in life and start taking steps to get it for himself.

I went through all that "he is WRONG" and what I wish people would think cr*p to try to exorcise it from myself. I feel like that sometimes, and it's ugly. When I get it out and look at it I don't like it; it's not who I want to be.

I get really annoyed when I see people get feedback that's harsh and they reply with immediate excuses about how they're all better now and that was then and blah blah blah but I'm doing it myself a bit. In between what we say back and forth the message seeps in gradually and behind the scenes.

Is it good or bad that I went out with a good friend in town for dinner and she told me she hadn't asked to stay at our house because she was afraid she'd smother H in the night with a pillow. I burst out laughing and told her I loved her for saying that. It's easier to be Mother Teresa if there's someone ready in your corner with a pillow.

[adinva]

All is well with my soul. I like that quote. But all is not well in my house.

H went out again with his friend last night. I had plans to see a friend from out of town so I came home to greet the kids, cleaned the kitchen, fixed dinner and got homework started, met H and told him I was headed out and that a sleepover friend was coming over soon. He said he'd be home for a little while but was going out.

He got home about 10 and came in hollering. First it was that S12 had accidentally locked the office door and we don't know where the key is. What'd you do that for, why do you lock the door, where is the key, why don't you know, who took the key, why does everyone always leave things where they don't belong, all at top decibel. Then there was the back and forth with S14 and his friend in the kitchen saying S12 did it and S12 saying S14 did it and on and on. Stomach upset.

H could have been the hero by unlocking the door but he turned it into a huge blame session and extrapolated it to a universal truth of the laziness and incompetence of everyone in the house but him.

He took all of S12's money, saying that he'd have to pay a locksmith. S12 was upset and came to ask H why he even asks S12 if he's just going to listen only to S14 anyway. S12 said he doesn't feel heard. H said you're not because I'm not listening to you. I know it was your fault. Ugh.

I asked if once we got the door opened could he please take the lock off it to prevent any future mistakes? He put both a key-lock doorknob and a sliding bolt on that door years ago when he got fed up that kids would play in there during Cub Scout meetings and there would be a mess. Rather than try to get the kids to pick up he just locked the toyroom anytime there were any friends over. That room was converted to an office over 2 years ago but there's still a lock. The key kept falling off because H tied it to the bolt with red yarn and the yard got old and broke off. I can visualize the key sitting somewhere but I can't remember. H gets just livid when I can't remember where something is.

Then he spied the screwdriver on the kitchen table between s14 and his friend. Who got that out, why is it out, why can't anyone remember taking it out, what is wrong with you people, someone tell me who got it out, at high decibel. S14 said S12, S12 said S14, no one remembered getting it out. I cleaned the kitchen yesterday and again this afternoon and feel pretty sure it wasn't on the table, but when H is yelling my brain gets fuzzy and I can't remember things either.

I couldn't take it anymore so I said, "ok. I don't remember but let's just say I got it out." H said well you should have put it away, and I said, OK I will next time. Ahhh. It was over.

There were a few more things H found to holler about before he went to bed. I was feeling bad that H is now acting toward the kids exactly how he used to act toward me. Come in, find everything to criticize, and then go to bed. Not a single moment of valuing them, caring about them, knowing what they did today or anything. I used to be so upset when he did that to me.

Unless you're living in it, you cannot imagine how impossible it is to clean enough, put away enough, remember enough, or anticipate enough what might set him off. You can think of 100 of them but he'll walk in and find the 101st, and only that. So you stop caring about the first 100 too....

This morning I woke up still feeling sad about the night before. I asked H how much money he took from S12, and he said $8 but you can give it back to him since I got the door fixed without having to pay anything. I asked him if he could give it to S12 himself. I was still in bed, H was up and ready to go, and it was time to wake up S12 anyway, but also I feel like it's undermining H to let him be the big meanie and then I'm the one who makes it better. I wanted to just stay in bed. So H took the $8 down the hall and said, Wake up, here's your money, what is this mess on the floor, get up, pick this up, pick that up, why do you leave stuff on the floor, this is a complete mess. And then he left for work. Sigh.

Last night when i was out with my friend she asked why we hadn't told the kids yet, and for me part of it has always been that we might turn this around. Her jaw hit the floor and she asked did I really think that was going to happen? Would I even want it to happen? He needs to go, she said. I am starting to realize how delusional I sound when I talk about this divorce not happening.

Here's my life now. Working on some songs with the guitar group I started, took them out to hear live music recently and it was fun, plan to do that again. Thinking of going to a concert in Richmond later this month. Meeting with L, financial advisor, and bank to work on our separation agreement terms. Busy time of year at work, hanging in there. Enjoying Christmas. Talking with my sisters often. The occasional beauty treatment or massage. Fun memories of our recent cruise vacation. Back in Weight Watchers. Tapering off A/Ds. Reading and biweekly IC. Plans for a few voice lessons in the new year. Bikram yoga every day, because I got a gift that helped me afford it for a month. Busy but mostly good.