I knew better...but I did it anyway...

[Sweetbriar]

Ad..also in repsonse to your post...I do not plan on texting him again and if he texts me I will ask that he not continue and if he does I will block him. I also am NOT standing in the way of his relationship with his kids, but he thinks I am. When the kids dont want to go with him he thinks its me telling them not to go...

EVERYTHING IS MY FAULT!

Thanks for the recommendation of the Cds..I will look into them!

[eyesopen]

SB,

I know that this isn't easy for any of us here, and I will not even pretend to say I know what you are going through. I have only recieved some resentment and bitterness, not the venom that you have. So I would like to offer another outsiders perspective.

The things he has said are so deranged to me, it is almost comical. When I read what he said, my mouth opens and all I can think off is "what," and "wow." I know that there is nothing funny about what any of us are going through. I know you think he is happy with OW, but IMHO she is nothing but a band-aid. Ask yourself how could anyone have a happy loving relationship with someone that coud say those things about his family and pregnant wife? We all have a long way to go, and if I have learned one thing, it is that I will do my best to never get complacent in my life again.

Your H also has a long way to go, continue to be the example of a better way to be. Hopefully he will see that at some point and make the decision to be a better person. I wish you all the best, and if I could offer a little pick me up, and I don't think I am alone in this view, pregnant=beautiful. Add to that a pregnant woman showing the strength a courage you have, and you have a recipe for a amazing woman. My hat is off to you.

[adinva]

You might print off the last 5-10 of his text messages or emails to you, including the one where he said the child was like a knife in his gut and explain that his unbalanced words and behavior give you great doubt that he will be able to provide the atmosphere of love and security that you need in your delivery room. So he won't be welcome there.

It would be very generous of you to allow him to be one of the first people to come in and see the baby once he is born, if you want that.

This is between you and him so I wouldn't be too concerned with family giving him frosty stares. You don't think they would cause a scene in the hospital if he were there do you?

[labug]

I also am having an issure already with the birth. Some have already advised to re think letting him be there for the birth. But, this will put me in complete anxiety during birth and I dont think I need to be in that state of mind. I will be giving birth and thinking about him with OW while is is standing there and I cannot put myself in that position. So, for the sake of myself (yes...Im being selfish for once) I dont want him there at all. I also know that my whole family will be there and they will not be so nice to him and that will give me anxiety too. Is the the wrong choice?? He has NOT been a single part of this pregnancy except for being the sperm donor..why should be he there for the glory?? Just my opinion..I'm open to other opinions...He thinks this is me being mean because I'm not getting my way on him coming home...but I have said this from the beginning..

Unfortunately this is not a novel happening at the time of birth. Pregnancy increases stress on everyone and in faltering marriages it's magnified. Abuse increases during pregnancy, so your H's abuse at this time is not unusual.

Write up a plan of who you want with you and share it with your Dr and the nurses caring for you at the hospital. If you change your mind at the last minute, the plan can change, nothing is written in stone but it's good to have a plan you can share so those in charge of your care can implement it.

Also, don't be alone with him if he comes to the hospital, always make sure there there is another person with you. Have you chosen a family member or good friend to be your go to person while in the hospital? It's helpful to have one person who knows exactly what you want and can relay your wishes and be your "protector."

Discuss with your family/friends what conversations you will allow during your labor and birth.

If H makes a scene at the hospital, staff are not a bit shy about calling security and having them standby if needed. Just their presence can make people rethink their possible actions.

[sandycay]

SB ~ I have not written to you before but am following along. Your H sounds so much like my EXH did. All the same blame game, my fault, we (kids & I) didn't respect nor love him.

On the other side, I see that he didn't respect me or the kids at the end. We had a great 16 years and then it fell apart. I was not pregnant like you so I have so much sympathy that you are going through this at the same time.

My EXH still is a jerk and inappropriate to our kids, when they see him which is about every 6 weeks at this point for a few hours. He shows up, stirs the pot, causes anxiety for the kids, and it [censored]. He blames me....even tells the kids "one day you'll know the truth".

He has a lot of resentment now that I stayed at home for the most part and evidently he did everything for the family. Although, I did work part time as soon as my youngest was old enough to go to work with me. And when he became unemployed I got a job and paid the mortgage and as soon as he become re-employed he told me I should quit...he liked me being home.

I say all this to you because: Your H sounds like mine . Narcissistic look it up.

Because you will never change this in him.

Here is what I learned:

1)You will not change his mind on anything so don't try.

2) Wise words of a counselor "your H wants you to be a B*tch so it can justify his actions...so make a choice...do you want to give him that satisfaction?" The answer for me was no....so from that day forward, 3 years ago....I let him say, blame, yell, self pity talk....go unanswered. I never respond other than to say.... "that's to bad you feel that way, I understand that's how you feel" always calm and always disengage. As soon as he started yelling, I would say "Call me back when you can talk calmly" I will tell you this caused my EXH much anger when I didn't bite. YOU WILL NEVER BE ABLE TO CHANGE HIS MIND. This doesn't make him right and you wrong....you just can't argue with someones feelings.

3)Another tidbit from counselor: "As long as your kids know your going to be ok....they will be ok." Now, this doesn't mean there won't be tears and that's ok. The kids need a rock and you are doing a fab job of that. Keep it up.

4) You can't control crazy behavior

5) You can't analyze the thought process of your H...the truth is he is not "thinking" about anything. He is flying by the seat of his pants. AND because he is not doing the work on himself nor the right thing here....the guilt eats at them...they may not realize it nor will they ever acknowledge it...so it manifest itself into blaming, pouting, and self pity. Viscous cycle There is a right way to end a marriage that is not working and our H didn't choose that.

6) Like you I have always said to myself....I am glad I am on my side of fence no matter how difficult it is than his side of the fence

On the baby delivery...that's a no brainer...it's about YOU! The baby won't remember if he was there the second the he enters the world. It's going to be tough on you either way, I would do what's most comfortable. I totally get not wanting to be in that state and having to deal with that. Be prepared because he will probably add that to his self pitying repertoire of why he can't come home etc....don't fall for that.

The following is paraphrased:


" Guilt-tripping:

Let's take a look at the manipulative narcissist's favorite tool, the Guilt Trip. We've looked before at some of the sneaky and covert manipulation tactics of aggressive personalities. Malignant narcissist's are usually of the covert-aggressive sort.

You must keep forever in the forefront of your mind that when you are dealing with a character-disordered individual (which includes narcissists as well as many other screwed up types) that they have a very different conscience from you. The reason you must remember this fact is because the manipulator never forgets it. They are deliberately using your conscience against you when they use the Guilt Trip. They are keenly aware that you possess a sound conscience. If you try to do the same to them; if you try to convince them of their guilt in something, you find that the Guilt Trip does not work on them. This is because their conscience is a very different thing than your conscience. The character-disordered conscience is blighted, twisted, perverted, malfunctioning on every level. They can not be manipulated by you with the Guilt Trip. An effective Guilt Trip is only achieved on a sensitive conscience. The covertly aggressive character-disordered person is unencumbered by such a thing.

The manipulator knows that a fully functioning conscience has the ability to register guilt and shame. The more conscientious you are, the more effective the Guilt Trip can be on you. I have said this before, I'll say it again: the malignant narcissist uses your own conscience against you. It is a handle on your heart that they can grab at will if you don't know enough to stop them.

You should not try to erase your own sound conscience in order to remove the handle. That would be destructive to your decency as a human being as well as well-nigh impossible to do. There has to be another way. And there is. You need to be informed, which is what I'm doing right now. Armed with the knowledge that the sneaky fighter is capable of using your own conscience against you, you are able to better recognize when it is happening and run a manual over-drive on yourself when you recognize someone is using you against yourself.

The manipulator tells you that you are selfish, that you are not caring enough, that you are hurting their feelings...and you find yourself high-centered on a big old boulder. Keeee-runch. Suddenly you feel horrible about yourself and are scrambling to apologize, make amends, soothe the manipulator's "hurt" feelings. You feel like a cad, and they walk away with whatever prize they were aiming for.

Pay attention to the interaction. When you suddenly find yourself being sent on the Guilt Trip train to surrender, pull the brakes. Don't let some lying and under-handed manipulator fight by using you against you. There is something quite unseemly about a conscienceless creep using your fully operational conscience to further their selfish ends. Don't be a patsy. Don't roll at the first intimation that you are too mean, too selfish, too uncaring. Know the truth about yourself even when someone is lying to you about you.

Hurting someones feelings in the process of defending truth and principle is not a crime. Some people deserve to have their feelings hurt. Don't fall victim to the "cult of nice". Narcissists have taken full advantage of the now endemic belief that hurting someones feelings is a sin. If the truth hurts someones feelings, so be it. Too often people are unwilling to stick to and defend truth because someone may be offended by it. This is only advantageous to the covert and overt criminal. Society, churches, families are not benefited in the long-run by the evasion of truth for the sake of someones feelings. It is this reflexive aversion on the part of decent people that so often lets evil run unchecked.

The truth is, the "hurt feelings" are a ruse when used by the character-disordered. Malignant narcissists are not experiencing hurt feelings...they are simply angry and annoyed at not getting their way. Know the difference between someone who has a legitimate claim to hurt feelings and someone who is just pissed off because they want what they want. The two are worlds apart. Getting hurt feelings for not getting your way is equivalent to a two-year old child throwing a tantrum simply because he wants what he wants. Let's not make it more than that."

[keep_going]

SB -

I hope you are feeling better today. It is always nice to find others that support us and care about us and you have plenty of that here.

I wanted to touch on the subject of letting your H be with you during the birth of your son. It’s a really, really tough decision for sure…

When my S was born, my H was not spewing at me as badly as yours is, but he wasn’t very nice at all. He was completely obsessed with OW and all his decisions revolved around her. I initially didn’t want him there with me either, I was so hurt by his betrayal and abandonment. Yet I knew my feelings for him would someday pass and I honestly didn’t feel I had a right to deprive him of the chance to be there to witness the birth of his son. I also didn’t want to make a decision I might later regret. I had to dig deep and ask myself WHY I really didn't want him there and keep myself honest about my motives.

Yet I also didn’t want him to ruin the experience for me. So I decided to talk to him calmly beforehand and lay my boundaries and ground rules for how he could be present. I told him he would need to be civilized and I told him I wanted no cell phones in the hospital. (At the time he was constantly texting OW in front of me and that was very hurtful to me.) He agreed and was actually very thankful that I let him be there. It was that reaction to our conversation that convinced me I was making the right decision to let him be there.

So he was with me, yet it did end up being a very painful experience for me. Why? Because I was not detached and I had set up the expectations that he would act like my H. I expected the experience to be just like it had been with our two daughters and it was not. He was not outright mean, but he was incredibly indifferent with me. Basically it was like having a stranger, like another nurse just there holding my hand and telling me to breathe. Three hours after the baby was born he said he was going to “get some breakfast” and he ran to call OW and share the whole experience with her. So the whole experience became one of the most bittersweet moments of my life because I ALLOWED IT TO BE.

If I had mentally prepared for him to be there like a distant relative...Yes, it's about the whole detachment thing again.
Yet, I can tell you that I still don’t regret giving him that gift. It hurts less everyday and I know someday it won’t hurt anymore.

Everyone’s feelings are so raw right now and you might make a decision based on those feelings that will eventually fade, yet the opportunity to live an event like this will not come around again probably for either of you. Try to think about it this way - you are currently incredibly hurt and angry at him, but if the tables were turned, would you want to be left out from the birth of your son? Would you agree to be in your best behavior to be allowed to witness that moment?

Please understand I am NOT telling you to let him be there or to let him treat you badly. It's not your job to rescue him. If you decide to let him participate, then he will definitely have to at least behave in a decent manner. You need to have healthy boundaries with him and he will need to treat you with respect if he wants you to have anything to do with him (not only for this event, but for every interaction he has with you). Perhaps if you have a calm conversation with him about it beforehand, his reaction to it will tell you if he would be capable of respecting your rules and boundaries, IDK...

I am also telling you that if you don’t think you can DETACH emotionally enough to NOT be affected by his own feelings or indifference towards you, then you could end up with a painful experience like me and it might be better off not letting him be there at all. I would not want him to ruin this moment for you either.

IDK, I think there’s a lot to think about here and it’s NOT an easy decision. I know I struggled with it for months and up until the very last moment. The good news is that you don’t need to decide right this moment and you can always change your mind.

I do agree with LaBug that you should most definitely have a birthing plan in place and make sure not only your H, but everyone participating clearly understands your wishes. (BTW, I also had my sister be there, ready to have H be sent out of the room if he got mean or nasty. Luckily she didn’t have to do that, but we were ready.)

Hang in there! You will do great no matter what!!!!!

(((((((((SB)))))))))))

[Sweetbriar]

Yes, I do have a lot to think about when it comes to the birth! I do have a plan of who will be with me and yes, I have my cousin (who I call my sister..we are so close) who will be staying in the hospital with me the entire time Im there. I really dont want him there at all..but Im sure that will only cause him more meanness and spewing...

SandyCay..thanks for your post! It does sound like our H's are a lot alike! Its such crazy behavior...I dont know what Im going to do if my H remains like this. He has gone back and forth from nice to mean. I think I forced the meanness when I texted him. Is your H still with OW?

Tonight the kids went to dinner with H and I just asked that they not tell me anything that goes on. It hurts me to know what his plans are. I know he is trying to get an apt. This is probably a good thing..let him be on his own. Let him feel the lonliness of some nights. Although, he is getting the apartment in our town, which is OWs town...so he wont be that lonely:( And now he will try to take the kids overnight...so we will see how that goes. I think Im having a hard time with the girls seeing him. I know that I cannot stop this...and that will be bad for them..but it hurts that he betrayed us, but still gets to see them and then leave them and go sleep with OW. Just not normal. He should be with their pregnant mother!

Anyway..the kids came home with a $500 check for me with "Stuff for my son" in the memo line. I want to rip up the check! I am so mad that he thinks he can just buy things to make up for all this. I know I sound childish, but I just hate that he has been buying stuff for the girls non stop and now trying to buy the baby stuff. He doesnt hardly see them and has nothing to do with the pregnancy....and then thinks he can hand over a check, drop them off and then he goes straight to OWs house. Does that ease his conscience and make him feel better like he did help out?

I know I should feel lucky that OW has this man I dont know anymore...but I cannot help but to think that he acts happy around her. He has to show that he a nice happy guy. I dont see what she would see in him if he is laying around depressed all the time...and I know that he is sad and depressed.

I guess I must ask...is it normal for the WAS to be sad and depressed and upset and going through hell but still think its the best plan to leave? I would think that if things arent working out he would come back..but he doesnt. Maybe he is just sad about everything in his life except OW so therefore, he continues?

Who knows...I know...I know..I know...I need to focus on ME...gosh its hard!

[adinva]

If you ever want to hang out and commiserate I emailed you my contact info a while ago. Hang in there! You have a lot of people in your corner here.

[Accuray]

I guess I must ask...is it normal for the WAS to be sad and depressed and upset and going through hell but still think its the best plan to leave? I would think that if things arent working out he would come back..but he doesnt. Maybe he is just sad about everything in his life except OW so therefore, he continues?

SB, yes, this is normal. You are trying to rationally understand something that is completely irrational. You seem to be turning the situation over and looking at it from all angles to find some little crack or inconsistency, like a loose thread you can pull to unravel it all.

Its like having your car stuck in the sand and continuing to press the gas to try to get out -- you just get more stuck.

What you are doing is also normal -- its a coping mechanism. When we feel hurt and out of control we seek to understand what happened so we can make sure it won't happen again. We feel that if we understand how its broken we can fix it. When it can't be understood or logically fixed it makes us anxious.

Your husband feels hurt and unloved by being distanced from his family, yet he chooses to remain distant. That makes no logical sense so it cannot be understood.

The only way to deal with it is to surrender to the fact that it cannot be understood and that you cannot change what he is doing. You need to surrender to that. That's a decision on your part and then takes will.

Accuray

[Sweetbriar]

Adinva...I emailed you 2 days ago...did you get it? If not, I can email you again. It was about this weekend!

Accuray...thanks for your input...I always appreciate when you comment on my thread..I value your opinion (along with everyone else..but you were one of the first to help me out on this board!) Im just really spinning for answers right now..and you are right..there arent going to be any. It is so hard to surrender the idea that he never felt love from me in all these years, but yet feels love from OW in just 9 months since he has met her... and really only 4 months since they have been exclusive. Its like a stab everytime I think of that because I honestly feel like I revolved my world around H and kids. Thats not to say there werent things I could have changed..of course, but I love him whole heartedly and still do and he just has pushed that aside for a new found love. H was broken for many years with his depression and I always tried to help in any way I could. Mainly, by allowing him to have a life of his own that involved LOTS of golfing. That was always an issue..how much spent golfing. But, I thought he needed it for his sanity after working all week and supporting our family. I also supported it by being there for him and knowing when he needed a break and when things were looking over whelming to him.

I remember when I first met H again..(we had worked together as young teens and then met again at his college when I was there visiting other friends) and H got very upset that night..and he started crying. Yes, crying to me about how awful his parents were and how they abused him and ruined him and that he hated his life and wanted to die. I remember feeling so sad for him and we started writing letters back and forth and forged a relationship that prompted him to drop out of college and move in with me. I WAS DOING THE SAME THING THE OW IS DOING NOW....I was catering to him and his emotional needs and back then there was no house and bills and kids to take care of . Just him and I. And I believe that is how it is with him and OW now..just the 2 of them..no worries and she is meeting every need and vice versa.

I dont believe that I stopped meeting his needs completely in our marriage, but life did get in the way, as it does when you are married 15 years and have 2 kids. We got comfy and then when lift became overwhelming...he ran. I dont know that I could have changed anything , yet he tells me that I had him for all these years and didnt take care of him. I have so many letters and cards where he has confessed his ultimate love for me and how much he appreciates all I did. Now he says that a "good mother" wouldnt keep her kids from their father. IM NOT DOING THAT! He left and the kids are resentful. He always looked at me with such love and then BAM....done. He doesnt love me anymore...he doesnt want to be in our marriage...He doesnt want to work on anything...when family was his # 1 thing always.

Im venting.sorry...but I just find it hard to surrender. I find it hard to move on and have a newborn and pretend that all is well and that we are some happy family. Im dying inside.. and I know he is too. But he will continue down this path of destruction and leave TONS of damage as he goes. He will continue to get closer to OW. That is what scares me the most is that the longer they are together, the closer and more in love they become.

"Your husband feels hurt and unloved by being distanced from his family, yet he chooses to remain distant. That makes no logical sense so it cannot be understood."

In resonse to this..He made the choice to leave and we have no choice but to distance ourselves from him right? Am I doing the right thing by being distanced? I thought I was and it made no difference...and if I pursue...it makes no difference...he doesnt care how I act..he has made his mind up to stay gone. The hurt and unloved feeling are those of which I feel he brought on himself..we were all here willing and ready to help him get help and he left the ones who loved him most??

He doesnt see it that way. He is throwing it all away for OW.

I hope that one day he will look back and see what he did and maybe realize that he made the biggest mistake of his life. I just cannot stop him as much as I want to...I really believe there is no helping him now. He is very far detached from this life we had. We are like strangers now..in just 5 months since he has been gone:(:(:(