3 Months in, Still fighting. Crunch time!

[SM34]

here is my previous thread:

http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2322124&page=12

At the end of that thread, I got many good pieces of advice that i would really like to address. Please read my next post.

[SM34]

OK so the question that sparked off the last few posts was regarding Valentines day. You are right, I don't think I will get her anything. Thankfully, I have a phone coaching session tomorrow morning so I can get Laurie's take on it and still have time to act if she thinks I should. But I am definitely leaning towards no gift, no card. What about from D3? I didn't even do that because I feel like if D3 was old enough to understand what mommy was doing, she wouldn't get her anything either. But that might be too harsh.

Starsky, this point was KILER:

By the way, that "I decided that _____" framing can be super-useful. Not so much if you LEGITIMATELY were formerly controlling SOB in the marriage, but otherwise it shows strength.

I was definitely the H who said "whatever you want", the complete opposite of controlling. And she has mentioned it to me many times over the years that she would like to see me plan something and execute without her input. GH31 also recommended this WAY back at the beginning of my sitch, and told me to purge the indecisiveness from my psych. I have done just that, as part of my 180s.

I planned the Saturday night outing to the psychic show and bought tickets, and then chose where we went to eat afterwards. I have also done this several times during the last 2.5 months and had written about the positive response I got from her, here on the board.

Fade wrote:

You mentioned several times you are looking at marriage builders as well as Divorce Busting. I think this is a big source of your issues and confusion, and the source of exasperation from the people on this board. You need to pick one or the other, these two approaches are diabolically different in intent and approach.

Yes I have read a lot on marriage builders, but I'm not sure I agree that the approach is so drastically different. Yes DB is more from a place of LOVE than MB, but the stages they recommend are similar. What I understand from almost 3 months on the DB board and having absorbed the advice of many veterans is as follows:

1) The LBS needs to exhibit the willingness to change, and address their issues that lead to the sitch. Then 180s should be done on those issues.
2) For my particular sitch, many have supported the idea of keeping my wife at home as long as possible to see the changes, and also more importantly to do what works to bring her closer, not push her further. I understand this to be NOT operation doormat, but more like operation WELCOME HOME mat.
3) You put up with the situation, (with boundaries) until you cannot take it anymore. There will naturally come a time where you cannot stay in this state of limbo. At that point, you will naturally begin to push the WAS towards the option they originally wanted to execute, which is to move out. The WAS has a last chance to make a decision to stay, naturally.
4) When the WAS leaves, you have worked on yourself and detached to where you don't care much. So naturally you will not be contacting the WAS that much unless it is related to the kids.

So, to me this is very similar to plan A and plan B, its just less rigid and less planned from a timeline position. In DB you let these stages happen naturally as you actually reach these different levels of detachment, and all the while you show your WAS a confident, happy person, someone they would want to be with. I believe Dr Harvey and WMD are really onto very similar scientific ways in saving your marriage, but one is more rigid with a written plan and a timeline etc...and one is much a much more natural progression of your sitch.

As best as I can tell, most of your actions look like you are trying to use marriage builder's "plan A" carrots and ignoring the "180" rules against support and pursuing

I am really just following the very fundamental concept in DB which is Do what works, and reject what doesn't. Michelle says to ask yourself, is what I am doing bringing me closer to my WAS? If not, try something else.

When I apply that to my sitch, here is what I come up with. My W's most important complaint about our M, and I believe the ONLY reason I am in this position, is that I didn't meed her needs emotionally. To be more precise, I did not compliment her enough on her looks and did not pursue her enough sexually.

Michelle warns in DR that if your WAS complained about unmet emotionally needs, it is not advisable to pull back, because that is just more of the same. I believe that is why Laurie wanted me to try to experiment with touch to see if my W was receptive and would be OK with me showing physical affection. Because if she is, I think Laurie will recommend that I keep working on light touch here and there.

So for some of you who's sitch was caused by being angry, or being controlling, or being somehow negative if you know what I mean, it makes perfect sense to pull back and give space and act as if. For people who's sitch is based on unmet physical affection, it is definitely more of the same!

So that is why I am really not confused on this part. And obviously I know my W very well, and I know how she feels towards me. I see the way she acts now as opposite to the first 2 or 3 weeks when I was giving her a lot of space and not at all showing much interest in her physically. It was just more of the same for her. Now that I am taking initiative to plan things, and I am complimenting her on her looks here and there (within reason), and doing the rest of my 180s like DIY projects around the house, coming home early etc.. I see that she is spending more KEY days at home. Saturday night is traditionally a day you spend with your "loved one". So is valentines day. In the last 10 days, I have been chosen for Saturday night AND valentines. So I'm going to see that as doing something right, and reject what I was doing at the very beginning (which got me a night home alone with D3 on new years which was also my 34 birthday!!).

Tallula, I respect your opinion and I definitely see how you do not want me to be a doormat. But again, in your sitch your husband accused you of being controlling, so the correct way to handle that is to "act as if" and give lots of space. I can't do that because that is more of the same and I WILL be divorce very quickly that way. Also your husband had multiple affairs, over a period of time without telling you. That is incredibly hurtful and you were right to ask him to move out!

In my sitch, I have to recognize that my W had no physical contact with OM until she came clean to me. She cried and said she was very confused, she didn't know why she was having these thoughts. Well i know! Its an emotional affair! Her brain is in chemical overload and she knows not what she does. I believe she is a good person, who is very confused and needs me to be the lighthouse. But Tullala you are right that I have to be very careful that I don't be a doormat.

I sleep in the master bedroom, I give her cash to buy groceries (took away the cash stash we used to have in the drawer so now she has to ask me), she is not to mention OM in MY house. But I treat her kindly and show her that she is going to miss out, but I try to also be stern when she crosses a line like mentions OM or needs spending money to go see him. You are right, I am paying for gas but i gas up the car JUST ENOUGH to get her there and back....not a drop more. And only because I believe if she spends enough time with this jackass loser (I know he is a loser, sorry I know this breaks the rules because it doesn't matter) it will help her realize. More time with anyone helps bring out the love extinguishers right?

If OM lived here in town she would have been kicked out a long time ago. She would be close enough to be able to come spend time with D3 because I believe that is very important for D3. She would also be able to go sleep at OM's house all the time, and that would help speed up the collapse of this A. I know there is no guarantee, but we all know the odds are against them, especially that I know they have nothing in common. He tells her she is hot, and that is what she needed.

I certainly wouldn't be mean to the person who was financing my fling & lifestyle and showering me with stuff...

You are right. I have thought about this long and hard. Obviously I see what is going on. But I feel that the progression from her being very cold and totally over our relationship the first few weeks and the way she is now is very different. Is she playing me? I can;t know for sure, but just from having known her since she was 17 I believe she is not. She truely believes that if she chooses OM, she can still have a very friendly relationship with me, and still come over to our home any time she wants. She of course has not read up on emotional needs etc.. like we all have so she doesn;t realize she is only happy right now because I am providing her with MOST of her emotional needs. Once I reach the point where i can't take this anymore, if she chooses OM and moves out, she will quickly realize he isn't going to cut it. And I will have shown her how wonderful I am, and that I am willing to work on my short comings, and the last memories she will have of life in our marital home will be wonderful. If I had kicked her out at the beginning, she would only remember emotional emptiness.

So do you guys think I am making sense? Aren't some sitches a little different and require a different approach? She feels I wasn't taking time to bond emotionally with her, so acting as if is going to re inforce that.

If anyone is around here tonight to expand on any of this, please do. I am very curious because this can make or break my cause. I want to stay married, and whether I feel like a doormat or not is of no concern to me right now. I am only concerned with whether my W thinks I am a doormat, and how to gain respect and at the same time exhibit the ability to be mroe emotionally available and more complimenting.

The most important thing to note when weighing the options is what AnotherStander mentioned, and also Laurie my DB coach. She is not pushing away, and she is not recoiling when I show affection.

I respect you all and REALLY REALLY appreciate all of you guys very very much. I may argue a little but it is only because of what I feel is working. That is why I want you guys to know the updates so that I can get feedback if what I am doing is bringing her closer, or further.

Please provide input tonight if you are around. My phone coaching is in the morning so I will be able to ask Laurie why she is having me try to touch my W when DB rules say no touch, although i feel I know the answer to that. If any of you have some more questions I should ask her please let me know!!

THANK YOU GUYS!! AnotherStander, Starsky, Tallula, Fade, LEO, Gabbysmom, thank you all for your input. Please let me know if I am interpreting michelle's teaching and correctly applying them to MY PARTICULAR SITCH.

[GH31]

What do you do with a waw for valentines?

NOTHING.

You don't even bring it up.

In fact, better still, have something fun planned for yourself.

GH31

[leopoldstotch]

[quote=SM34]When I apply that to my sitch, here is what I come up with. My W's most important complaint about our M, and I believe the ONLY reason I am in this position, is that I didn't meed her needs emotionally. To be more precise, I did not compliment her enough on her looks and did not pursue her enough sexually.[quote=SM34]

If you did not hear this coming from your W then you are mind reading again.

[quote=SM34]So that is why I am really not confused on this part. And obviously I know my W very well, and I know how she feels towards me. I see the way she acts now as opposite to the first 2 or 3 weeks when I was giving her a lot of space and not at all showing much interest in her physically. It was just more of the same for her. Now that I am taking initiative to plan things, and I am complimenting her on her looks here and there (within reason), and doing the rest of my 180s like DIY projects around the house, coming home early etc.. I see that she is spending more KEY days at home. Saturday night is traditionally a day you spend with your "loved one". So is valentines day. In the last 10 days, I have been chosen for Saturday night AND valentines. So I'm going to see that as doing something right, and reject what I was doing at the very beginning (which got me a night home alone with D3 on new years which was also my 34 birthday!!).[quote=SM34]

If you know how your W feels towards you and you see she acts the opposite of when you gave her space then WTF is she STILL sleeping with another man? So she is spending more "key" days and you think you have been chosen for Sat night and Valentines Day? LOL SM did it occur to you that maybe her lover is busy? She won't stop cake eating until you stop being weak!

[quote=SM34]In my sitch, I have to recognize that my W had no physical contact with OM until she came clean to me. She cried and said she was very confused, she didn't know why she was having these thoughts. Well i know! Its an emotional affair! Her brain is in chemical overload and she knows not what she does. I believe she is a good person, who is very confused and needs me to be the lighthouse. But Tullala you are right that I have to be very careful that I don't be a doormat.[quote=SM34]

So once she came clean that made it ok to have sex with someone other than her H? How the hell do you know why she was having those thoughts because you read it somewhere? SM why do you constantly make excuses for her behavior? My guess is it's because you truly haven't entertained the idea of living life without her. You say you can move on without her but I think those are just words. You'd better prepare yourself for life without her because she may not want you back. Trust me your W knows EXACTLY what she is doing and you have yourself convinced that she doesn't. She is playing you for a FOOL!

[quote=SM34]You are right, I am paying for gas but i gas up the car JUST ENOUGH to get her there and back....not a drop more. And only because I believe if she spends enough time with this jackass loser (I know he is a loser, sorry I know this breaks the rules because it doesn't matter) it will help her realize. More time with anyone helps bring out the love extinguishers right?[quote=SM34]

WTF is wrong with you? You give her just enough gas to get to her lovers and back? Any self respecting MAN would not gas up her vehicle. I can't believe you fill up her car so she can go off with another man, what is wrong with you? Stand up for yourself, stop being weak. What you do right here shows all of us that you definitely cannot move on without her. You are taking enabling to new heights! If she spends enough time with him she could fall in love with him and never return to SM!More time with anyone can build strong lasting bonds.

[quote=SM34]If OM lived here in town she would have been kicked out a long time ago. She would be close enough to be able to come spend time with D3 because I believe that is very important for D3. She would also be able to go sleep at OM's house all the time, and that would help speed up the collapse of this A. I know there is no guarantee, but we all know the odds are against them, especially that I know they have nothing in common. He tells her she is hot, and that is what she needed.[quote=SM34]

So on one hand you want your W to stay at home so she can see your changes but now it's if OM lived closer you would have thrown her out long ago? Which is it SM? You are talking out of both sides of your mouth. So her sleeping with OM all the time will now magically make the A collapse? Seriously SM WTF is wrong with you? Where are getting these crazy notions? Has it occurred to you that it's quite possible that the more time she spends with OM the more she could fall for him? No SM you don't know that the odds are against them and how do you know they have nothing in common? It's obvious they have something in common because she goes over there to have sex with him.

[quote=SM34]So do you guys think I am making sense? Aren't some sitches a little different and require a different approach? She feels I wasn't taking time to bond emotionally with her, so acting as if is going to re inforce that.[quote=SM34]

No you aren't making any sense at all.

[quote=SM34]If anyone is around here tonight to expand on any of this, please do. I am very curious because this can make or break my cause. I want to stay married, and whether I feel like a doormat or not is of no concern to me right now. I am only concerned with whether my W thinks I am a doormat, and how to gain respect and at the same time exhibit the ability to be mroe emotionally available and more complimenting.[quote=SM34]

You want respect? Start respecting yourself first. Stop enabling her A and put an end to her cake eating ways that's how you get respect. She is playing you like a fiddle. I'm sorry to be hard on you but I'm in shock at what you've just posted. You need to wake up bro.

[Tallula]

I will say, my husband complained of lack of affection, sex (just the same as you, we never had sex less than 2 times a week) and no compliments. These were his complaints from the past year. Before that, he said I was great. As far as the controlling stuff, while true, he fully takes 50% of the blame now. He knows he purposely gave me that control.

So this is why I say I get it. My H definately warmed to me, big time. He left the OW. But he then also told me I was smothering him a bit.

My biggest point was this. You are so tied to what every action will produce in your wife, that you may not be being true to you. That is huge! DB is all about looking at you. Pulling back isn't about being mean or unfriendly. Yes, my husband is a serial cheater. He may come to me and say he doesn't ever think he can be faithful. I may never be able to trust him & not try again. But that doesn't mean our sitchs are so different that we do many different things. You keep wanting your sitch to somehow be different than every bodies so you can keep doing what you think is best. Again, no one is telling you to tell her to leave. Just do not pursue. Do not buy gifts. Etc.

As for D3, I am having my kids make valentines. They are too young to do it on their own. Hopefully my kids will never learn of what their father has done. I will protect their R with everything I have. I will not let my H's actions affect my integrity.

[Tallula]

Oh, and lastly, I did have boundaries while H was still seeing OW. No contact with her in our house, ie texting or calls. No spending a cent on her. No spending the night out. Honestly, the only time he could see her was on lunch breaks. I wouldn't tolerate family time being used for his A. If these were broken, he was out. He lived by those. But it all was still eating at me.

Again by your above post, you think that she will obviously choose you over OM. Again, I don't see that you are being honest with yourself about living without W. it's ok to just say, yea, I wantbto save my marriage at all costs. At the cost of my self esteem, my money, eyc. Because I'll tell you what, I knew that is what I was doing, deep down. Taking whatever crumbs I could get.

So I've been separated for 2 weeks. I stopped all types of pursuing. I don't text or call unless it's about the kids. I don't ask to hang out. H texts me several times a day to see how I'm doing. I usually say good & something about the kids. He'll call to say hi & that he misses me. Tonight he texted to remind me to take out the trash. Then a happy early Vday. Then an I love you. Yea...3 minths ago i knew that detaching (with love) would drive him away, but look at what I know. I only responded with a "thanks". And for me it was a thanks about the trash pickup. It's not my regular job & I forgot last week.

Try a beginners mind...

[SM34]

Leo

Yes I know for a fact that my wife doesn't think I compliment her enough. She told me that she felt rejected sexually, and because I didn't compliment her, or pursue her sexually, she thinks i am not attracted to her. I believe without this problem, none of my other "faults" would matter. This is a big one though, so I need to pay attention to it.

She still sleeps with OM even though she is warming to me because she doesn't believe I can change. You know it takes time for that. So in the meantime, she has to pursue OM. She told me that during BD. She said you say you can change but you will be right back to the same thing in a few months. OM tells me I am gorgeous. I need 6 months to see which relationship is right for me.

Once she came clean, it did not make it alright to sleep with OM. She walked out on our M!! There was a night that she told me to throw all her stuff in our pond if I wanted to, she was not coming home. I'm not making excuses for her behavior. She is behaving like a crazy, reckless addict. I'm trying to be her lighthouse, as DB principles say.

Where am I getting that the odds are against their relationship? Well, the statistic is 3%. And the reasons are well documented. The relationship is built on lies, it is not real life tested, there is uneven committed because one left a marriage and the other hasn't had to sacrifice anything, he told her many things at the beginning that he is still not doing to help her get out from our M, She told me they have nothing in common but she thinks that doesn't matter, he is not her type physically and she is already trying to change him (he needs to gain weight, he needs to cut his hair, he needs to shave etc... things she has said), the first week she thought he was a family man and D3 would have a room in their house but the first time she took D3 to the zoo with OM (against my wishes and without my knowledge) he didn't know how to interact with her and D3 didn't like him, and now W never brings up D3 having anything to do with him. I mean the list is quite long. Trust me when I tell you the relationship is fantasy, completely and utterly. i will go with you on the idea that when it ends she may not think our M is any better, but as far as this A, it is not going to end well...that much I am 99.9% sure of.

When you spend time with someone, you begin to see that they fart in bed, the look like crap in the morning, they are dirty (I saw pics of his pig sty apartment) etc.. and the fantasy becomes more real life. As long as she only talks to him on the phone, or via messages, he stays this fantasy character that is so magical. Haven't you read those sitches of internet or long distance affairs? They are powerful and can last forever because their is no real life...without reality it is all fantasy.

Leo man in any case, I know you have always tried to help me. you have been very dedicated to commenting on my posts, one of the few who have stuck with me. But you have to trust me and my gut feeling. I know my W very well. She can't even figure out how to tell her family because he SOOO going to be disliked by them. He is tattooed up with piercings and two illegitimate kids...no offense to anyone who fits that description its just that my W family are hardcore Catholic and this isn't going to fly. The affair is underground right now. I'm following DB by doing nothing about it as far as trying to bring it to light. Dr Harvy at MB would have it exposed so her family can pick her apart! But again I want her to change her mind because I am the better option not because she is shamed. I have been accused of wanting her shamed because I suggested it was inevitable when she tells her family. But thats the truth. He NEVER comes to our city, never ever. And he has a brother here who is good friends with us!! His own brother (the decent, married, family man one) thinks he is a POS.

So I am pretty confident its fantasy, and thats why I keep asking that everyone believe or trust my gut on that. That doesn't mean I think I am the obvious choice once it ends, or once W realizes. And that is why I come here to seek advice on how to become that better choice.

Questions like "How do I act towards her", "how nice should I be" etc.. are in order to not burn any bridges. To avoid love extinguishers as I believe they call them. And do do things that work, and reject things that don't. I am good with what is happening because it has already happened. she already slept with him. Now she needs to come to the realization that our marriage is better, and what she has is way better than this. It is related to my confidence in myself, and the fact that I am a catch. Just need to convince her I can be affectionate, and that I can learn to pursue her sexual (which will happen also when she learns to speak my love language). So thats where i need help.....how do you demonstrate to a WAW that you can be affectionate, complimenting, and sexually pursuing without pursuing...weird huh?

have to see where Laurie goes with this tomorrow.

[SM34]

Tallula, yes it seems our sitchs are somewhat similar.

I understand what you are saying about looking too closely to what she is doing, and that I need to look at myself.

I'm still doing my 180s. I also launch my newest business this weekend! So excited!! I've been reading a "Home MBA" book that W got me a while back. I need to develop my business skills for myself so I can be successful. I feel more confident and better about myself when my business is not going downhill. Also, W has asked me recently why I don't read that, and that it will help me. I'm not reading it just for her, but it is nice that I want to read it and she wants me to read it, both at the same time.

I am more driven now to succeed. If my M goes down the tubes because my W never wants to give it a second chance, I still need to make my business succeed. As I told my wife, this OM is not ever going to be responsible for D3's future. That is solely my responsibility now. I owe her the best life I can give her, with or without her mother's help.

I want to be able to take D3 on vacations like I did with my family. I want her to go to a good private school, like I did when I was young. I want her to travel and see the world, like i did when I was young. That has become my mission. I didn't care so much to meet a whole bunch of new people. That will happen in time. My focus is on stopping the bleeding as far as my finances go because we owe too much and without serious diligence it is not going to get better any time soon.

I have imagined life without my W. I have imagined living with my lovely daughter on our own. Honestly, it doesn't scare me so much as it used to. I mean it has been 3 months now without my W's affection etc... and I am still able to be driven at work etc.. I'm coming home earlier to enjoy my daughter. We have an awesome time together! She really is the coolest little kid I have ever met and has the BEST sense of humor! She does things then laughed and knows she is being mischievous. She tries to hide in the fridge but cant get the door to shut on her =) It would still be a lot of fun! But I WANT my wife so we can be a complete family. It has always been my dream...and hers in fact. Thats why I am giving it my best effort, putting my pride aside, reading reading reading, learning, applying, growing, learning how to be a better business man, learning how to better manage my business and my employees, better manage my time so I can spend it with my family etc..

It has been a good experience so far and I can safely say none of it would have happened without BD. I just want our issue to come full circle and then we have ALL learned something from this (including my W who will hopefully have learned that we should work on our problems not run off after a fantasy).

Stay tuned Tallula. I like your insight and you support. I want to "own" what I am doing, as you said. Yes I am settling for so much less than I deserve right now....but hopefully things will change.

[LuckyLuke]

SM34: having gone through a similar, albeit thankfully short, affair on my W's part, which I tolerated while it lasted, and via this tolerance got more time in my marriage, I think you pay a long term price - yes, she may come back to you, but you have lost face and respect in her eyes. A transitory short term gain for a long term loss - not worth it, in my book.

[SM34]

So I need to establish stronger boundaries. I will ask laurie about this today.

How do you all suggest I bring it up or how to word it. I want to tell her that she will need to figure out a way to pay for gas because I am done doing that. I want to say 3 months has passed and that is plenty of time to have figured it out.

Or do I give a timeline? Like you have two weeks, after which I al not paying for gas anymore.

How should i approach this?