Thing I've learned. Now what?

[ntincu]

Well the the big D is coming soon. We've just got to get some paperwork to go through on some of the finances and property, and that's about it. I've had a lot of time to reflect on some things in the last few months. I think I was a bit obsessive about it, but I'm sure most on here can understand that.

1. My W leaving me had little to do with my depression. Sure it was part of it, but it was a communication break-down that started years ago.

2. My lack of self-esteem hurt my marriage. Thanks to someone on here that recommended "No More Mister Nice Guy" I saw how destructive that was. Not only to me, but also to our marriage. You have to like yourself for others to feel the same way. I just couldn't believe that someone would love me unconditionally. I'm still working on this, but my W divorcing me hasn't helped.

3. I could never measure up to the standard that she set for me based on how she felt about her friends at work. She said that she never knew how miserable she was until she started socializing with the people where she works now. We had some difficulties as every marriage does, but I don't think I could ever measure up to the good times she had with her friends, even though I know at least some of those friends had marriage problems themselves. One of the things she wanted from me was to converse with her like she did with her friends. I just didn't know how to do that. You can't compete with a fantasy.

4. I just couldn't pick up on her subtle communications. Towards the end I was starting to pick up on how she was communicating, but it was too late by then. She could never say anything directly, and it just never filtered through to me that she was saying she was upset. She had years of built up frustration she just didn't want to get past.

5. I wasn't engaged enough with the daily life in the household. I made a great turnaround toward the end, but again it wasn't enough. She again bore her dissatisfaction in silence.

6. There was never any chance for me to 'fix' things in reconciliation. As our pastor said, something broker in her sometime in the past, and there was never any chance to fix things. He doesn't think she consciously had made up her mind, but he's pretty convince she did. I couldn't get her to hold my hand, or even let me know when I did something that bothered her. Whenever she was asked where she wanted things to go she would just say, "I don't know."

Now I'm not sure what to do now. I don't know if I want to give up completely on DB, but I also don't want to just waste my life waiting for something that will never happen. I'm not ashamed to say I'm lonely. I've been that way since the start of our reconciliation. It's also been 2 years since I've had sex, or even been touched by someone in that way.

I occasionally have lunch with her to talk about the kids and other stuff. I've thought about sharing my revelations I've made about myself, being careful not to criticize her. I wouldn't do it for her, but for some reason I feel like I need to explain to her. Don't know if it's a good idea, or if it really matters anymore.

[AnotherStander]

Sorry to hear you're heading for D At this point since D is inevitable, if you feel like you need to get some things off your chest then I say go for it. If it'll make you feel better then do it. Just don't expect it to change anything about her attitude.

Regarding not being sure what to do- live your life! Just because she's out of the picture doesn't mean you can't have a full, meaningful, FUN life without her. You absolutely can. So get on with it

[MrBond]

I'm going to be perfectly honest here.

Much of the reason why you're still in this position is because you haven't changed.

"You have to like yourself for others to feel the same way. I just couldn't believe that someone would love me unconditionally. I'm still working on this, but my W divorcing me hasn't helped."

Reread what you just wrote. "self" esteem relies on one thing. YOUR self. Your W divorcing you doesn't affect this.

"I could never measure up to the standard that she set for me based on how she felt about her friends at work. She said that she never knew how miserable she was until she started socializing with the people where she works now. We had some difficulties as every marriage does, but I don't think I could ever measure up to the good times she had with her friends, even though I know at least some of those friends had marriage problems themselves. One of the things she wanted from me was to converse with her like she did with her friends. I just didn't know how to do that. You can't compete with a fantasy."

What fantasy? From what I read, her friends' relationships seemed healthy and its what all couples go through. For some reason you think this is unreasonable. THIS is the biggest reason why you're getting D'd. You don't change because you don't "believe" it.

"I just couldn't pick up on her subtle communications. Towards the end I was starting to pick up on how she was communicating, but it was too late by then. She could never say anything directly, and it just never filtered through to me that she was saying she was upset. She had years of built up frustration she just didn't want to get past."

This takes time and patience. You were rushing things through and I didn't see where you actually learned how to communicate with her.

"I wasn't engaged enough with the daily life in the household. I made a great turnaround toward the end, but again it wasn't enough. She again bore her dissatisfaction in silence."

She probably said something. Even small comments, or you should have taken her "silence" as dissatisfaction. But you blew it off.

"There was never any chance for me to 'fix' things in reconciliation. As our pastor said, something broker in her sometime in the past, and there was never any chance to fix things."

You continue to put the blame on her. I don't think you realize how much you are personally responsible for.

:I couldn't get her to hold my hand, or even let me know when I did something that bothered her."

All that is you trying to control her. You never stopped trying to control the situation and allow HER a chance to grow.

"Whenever she was asked where she wanted things to go she would just say, "I don't know."

Which was very honest of her. And she probably didn't want to hurt your feelings because you were so clingy.

"Now I'm not sure what to do now. I don't know if I want to give up completely on DB, but I also don't want to just waste my life waiting for something that will never happen."

Let's get something straight here. You HAVEN'T been DB'ing. DB'ing means to change for the better. You see it as some sort of plan or ploy to just get your W back. It's not. It's recognizing the things that hurt your M and changing them. These are LIFE changes. Because you think DB'ing is just to get your W back, your supposed "changes" aren't going to stick. Mainly because you don't believe in what you're doing. YOu don't think you can communicate better, you think her friends' marriages are "fantasies", etc. She GAVE you a roadmap to follow and you didn't want to listen.

"I'm not ashamed to say I'm lonely. I've been that way since the start of our reconciliation."

This is why you are trying to control things.

"I occasionally have lunch with her to talk about the kids and other stuff. I've thought about sharing my revelations I've made about myself, being careful not to criticize her."

Instead of "talking" to her about it, what have you SHOWN her concerning your changes?

[ntincu]

I think much of what you say is true. I do think we could communicate better, but I think I started realize what was going on way too late. She has admitted that she can't communicate directly, and I was just too dense to understand. It took some long talks with a friend for him to point out what was going on to me. No one in my family communicates like that, so I didn't really get the clues.

I know now that I was clingy. I didn't realize how clingy I was before now. Actually, I probably don't know even at this point how bad it was.

I think you're right that I was trying to control her by making improvements that I thought she wanted. I felt very helpless and frustrated. I had worked my way out of a depression and thought that because of this things should turn around. I was modifying my bad habits that she complained about in counseling, and thought that it would show there was progress. Every bad habit that I changed, she would mention another one and move the goal post. What I didn't understand, and what our counselors evidently didn't understand, was that the real problems weren't getting the attention. I would focus on fixing those issues, but I didn't try to make progress anywhere else. I will admit too that some of the things that annoyed her took me a while to fix.

I think she just got tired of trying to get through to me by the time we started counseling. I got her to go with me to see Michele, and even she couldn't get her to see that she could empower herself and fix the marriage at the same time. While there are a lot of things that are my fault, I don't think she was completely blameless. I know I made a lot of mistakes, but it takes two people to fix a marriage. I think I do look at myself as too much of a victim though.

I did make conscious efforts to make real changes in my life. I'm still following through with them today. I'm taking better care of my body by eating better and working out. I'm a lot more organized about taking care of the bills and not letting things go. I'm a lot better father, when I get to be one. She even acknowledge that things were better, and that I had improved a lot but at the point where she announced the D she didn't care anymore. The self-esteem issue is a harder one for me. This is a life long issue that I'm trying to work through.

As for her friends, my real problem with them is that they replaced me a long time ago. Even when we went out on dates she would be texting them. Most of her private time with me was filled with her texting them on the computer or on her phone. By the time she came home with me she had nothing left to give me. You could say it was a kind of EA. I admit I drove her to it, but as oblivious as I was to her about her method of communication, she was just as oblivious as to how much that was driving us further apart.

The fantasy that I alluded to was that she wanted us to communicate with each other just like she did with her friends, but she doesn't live with her friends. She doesn't have to see them at their worst, or deal with any of the common problems that a married couple do.

[LFC1170]

ntincu, Man I could've wrote the same post word for word and I totally empathize with you. EVERYTHING is almost the same! From her troubled past and self-esteem problems, right down to the texting and obsession with the computer. In my wife's case it's FB. She didn't drop the BD till after I bought her a $700 laptop to FB almost every minute I was home. That damn DEVIL computer!

ALL of our problems is resulting from a lack of communication skills. Read "Men are from Mars/Women are from Venus" to get a handle on communicating lovingly in a relationship. It made me realize all the things my wife was trying to say all these years and I didn't understand because my wife was indirect as well.
Basically, it says that men hear things literally while women speak poetically. This was one of my main complaints through the years. I never realized how destructive it was to my bond with her and how it contributed to a 11yr sexless m. Isn't it funny the only time our women speak in literal terms is when they ask for a D?

I'm sorry to hear your m is done. I really am. Divorce [censored]!!!
Learn these communication skills to better arm yourself for your next relationship so you won't be surprised again. This also should help towards your personal growth.

Mr.Bond. I know you go on saying that our D have nothing to with deteriorating self-esteem. To that I say this, I don't know how you choose to enter a long-term relationship without having emotional co-dependency on some level. Our D are a direct result of rejecting our w in some way. This leads to them rejecting us. Then the D proclamation comes and that basically says we failed as husbands. This has got to be a blow to our self-esteems.

But you would probably say that co-dependency in m are unhealthy anyway. Why not? They say that about unconditional love don't they?

[MrBond]

"I know I made a lot of mistakes, but it takes two people to fix a marriage."

And she did try the FIRST time. You just didn't want to listen. What you're asking her for is ANOTHER chance. Once you didn't want to go to C at first, it already planted the seeds of doubt in her mind. Honestly, if you had a friend that betrayed you and then he said that he was sorry, etc. and would do whatever it took to make the friendship work but didn't follow through...would you trust him?

"I did make conscious efforts to make real changes in my life. I'm still following through with them today. I'm taking better care of my body by eating better and working out. I'm a lot more organized about taking care of the bills and not letting things go. I'm a lot better father, when I get to be one."

These are good things. HOWEVER, you started too late.

"By the time she came home with me she had nothing left to give me. You could say it was a kind of EA. I admit I drove her to it, but as oblivious as I was to her about her method of communication, she was just as oblivious as to how much that was driving us further apart."

Did you talk to her about it?

"The fantasy that I alluded to was that she wanted us to communicate with each other just like she did with her friends, but she doesn't live with her friends. She doesn't have to see them at their worst, or deal with any of the common problems that a married couple do."

What are you talking about? If you two are married, then you should be each others BEST friends. You could easily have communicated with her like her friends AND because you had the added benefit of being her H, you could talk to her and relate to her about things that her friends can't.

Here's the truth of it. Just because you've suddenly seen the light, etc. and are now at a point where you want to save your M, that doesn't mean that your W has to feel the same way. We each deal with things through our own timetable. That's why you've got to give her time and patience. While you're doing that, you make the changes that you started, stick.

[ntincu]

I initially couldn't hear my wife because I was depressed and obsessing over the death of my father and my sister. My father died right before we met, but it was a year long battle of him going on and off the brink of death. I don't think I ever recovered from that. Meeting my wife just gave me a temporary reprieve, but I never dealt with my feelings. I had 4 other friends and family die on me within a 2 year period of that.

When I started having problems with my job I think I started regressing again. Then when my sister died it really hit me hard. This happened not too much before when the W announced we were in trouble. Ironically when my W told me she was thinking about leaving and we needed counseling, that snapped me out of my downward spiral. That was one of the worst feelings I've had, to finally see how my depression was affecting my family. But that is one of the reasons I couldn't hear her. After that it took me a while to get into a good place, but she had no respect for me by then.

She even said that she went through depression too, but she pulled herself out of it on her own so she saw no reason why I couldn't. I know this isn't completely true, because I know her family and teachers intervened.

All of this pushed her away, and I think the natural reaction of anyone is to push back. By the time all of this came to a head 2 years ago we were no longer best friends. I created a vacuum that she filled with her friends. I've worked at improving my communication skills, but I don't think she even wants to consider being with me right now if ever. She still sees that guy that I was 2 years ago. She showed shock that I got a dog after she moved out. Why? Because the me of 2 years ago probably wouldn't have. Our marriage councilor was mystified as to why she was divorcing me when she admitted that I had become a better parenting partner, and that my mood had improved. As my therapist put it, she has her defenses up.

I will say that her getting a laptop didn't help. Even when she got her first laptop years ago all she would do is sit on the couch and browse the web. I think technology has not helped marriages, but I also think that things like that may be just a symptom of bigger issues.

I guess one of the reasons I've always felt a little hopeless is that I don't feel like I can compete with her friends. They're good times, I'm bad times. Of course now I hardly see her so what do you do? All I can do now is GAL and try to move on I guess.

[MrBond]

"She even said that she went through depression too, but she pulled herself out of it on her own so she saw no reason why I couldn't. I know this isn't completely true, because I know her family and teachers intervened."

I notice you do alot of mindreading for her. Even if you have friends around you, it is still UP TO YOU to get out of depression. She's correct in this.

"She still sees that guy that I was 2 years ago. She showed shock that I got a dog after she moved out. Why? Because the me of 2 years ago probably wouldn't have."

She said that?

"Our marriage councilor was mystified as to why she was divorcing me when she admitted that I had become a better parenting partner, and that my mood had improved. As my therapist put it, she has her defenses up."

Your MC isn't very good. If she were, she would understand that just because YOU change doesn't make the other person suddenly want to rush back into your arms.

"I will say that her getting a laptop didn't help. Even when she got her first laptop years ago all she would do is sit on the couch and browse the web. I think technology has not helped marriages, but I also think that things like that may be just a symptom of bigger issues."

You blameshift alot. A laptop doesn't stop marriages. That was just an escape for her. Same as having OM or another hobby.

"I guess one of the reasons I've always felt a little hopeless is that I don't feel like I can compete with her friends."

Why? That's just your low self esteem talking. What have you been doing to improve that?

"They're good times, I'm bad times. Of course now I hardly see her so what do you do? All I can do now is GAL and try to move on I guess."

You put yourself down alot. You can be a better person IF you choose to.

[ntincu]

I do put myself down a lot. I think I really need to work on that if I really want a real relationship with anyone. I'm going to work on that. I know that I don't stand much chance of getting the W or anyone else in the future to want to be with me long term if I don't get over this self-esteem issue. I think the self-esteem problem is causing a lot of the other problems I have. As I heard someone else say, "Attitude creates Altitude."

[MrBond]

So, what SPECIFICALLY are you going to do about your self-esteem? Talking about it doesn't do you any good unless you ACTIVELY try to change it.