Lost in Fangorn Forest

[Zues126]

New Thread. Not quite ready to leave newcomers yet. Maybe next thread. We'll see.

I think any fear I've had of the women's lib movement is that if this model is cast out, I don't know where I fit in. As women don't need men for protection or stability, and the idea of being expected to provide sexually is becoming a social indignation, I feel useless and ashamed of my needs.

When you say 'men seem to want it that way' I can only speak for myself when I say "YES". NOT that I want to simply pay for sex, but that I do want a way in which I can have my sexual needs validated and satisfied. Not to say my only contribution of a marriage is money, frankly I longed for more quality time and companionship as well, but only because I would've done about anything for a partner that understood my physical needs and cared for me enough to prioritize them.

It sounds like yours is the classic struggle for men trying to redefine their gender role.

So if you have a partner with emotional needs, who wants them validated and satisfied, shouldn't it be possible to create a R based on seeing each other as humans instead of man and woman? A woman will do anything for a man who satisfies her emotional needs and cares for her enough to prioritize them.

I truly believe that it is easy for a man in a loving R to keep seducing his woman. The problem is when the man becomes stubborn and refuses to make the littlest effort, and instead demands (expects her to provide for his needs) what was initially given freely as a response to his loving care.

From the woman's POV, it's like bait and switch. A man shows himself from his best side until they're married, then he promptly stops wearing a shirt around the house and starts complaining about the food and takes for granted what he used to romance her for. And tells her she overreacts when she feels neglected.

And then they complain about how the woman changed.

Painter, this all sounds good. Like dreamy. I'm not dismissing it. I just have to react to it first.

I clearly wasn't able to meet the emotional needs of XW. I was idealistic, I tried to give my heart and soul and do anything my W needed. But it felt like some wacky world where the pathways were shifting and I kept running into dead ends and wrong turns. There was no formula I could find that worked. Just when I thought I'd have it right there would be a new rule made up in the middle of the game and I would come up short again.

Meanwhile the more I tried to contort my behavior the more crazy I felt. I became co-dependent, all I wanted in my life was to find a way to 'make her happy' and find the combination that would inspire her to want to try to do the same for me.

And yes, she became resentful, withdrawn, angry, cold, and on the sexual front years would pass. Her mind was like a fortress, I had no clue how to melt the ice.

From my perspective it would've been much easier for her to give an opportunity to repair the marriage. Had she come to me lovingly and told me she wanted to fall in love again, let's go on a 3 day romantic getaway and have another honeymoon, then talk about some things we wanted in the future, I would've done about anything to have made it work. But if I suggested something like that she refused, withdrew, and acted like I was crazy for thinking she'd be ok with that considering how offended she was about something I had done, which I was supposed to figure out without being told.

Finally I was like a nervous wreck, tip toeing around trying to avoid the sting of further rejection. Everywhere else in my life I was this giant that people found inspirational, but I'd come home and would be looked at as incompetent and worthless.

So yes, I gave up. I played pool, I focused on work. I guess the marriage was dead years ago. I'd say I'm sorry I gave up, but I am glad I did, it was the smartest thing I did, because I couldn't win the game of making her happy, and if I hadn't have been relatively diversified with other parts of my life I don't know how I would've survived the divorce when she took off.

Since the marriage has been over I have been more stable, healthier, happier, and frankly my sex life hasn't changed, if anything instead of feeling neglected and misunderstood I just feel single.

There seems to be a lot of men that feel trying to meet a woman's emotional needs is a bad idea. That women are attracted to strong men, bad boys. That the stability of them being unaffected by her pouting and stamping feet is needed to make her feel safe. That trying to twist and turn to guess what mood she's in and make allowances for her feelings just makes her into a spoiled princess, and nothing's ever good enough, and he becomes whipped and pathetic. That what women say they want and what works in a relationship are two different things. Even Sandi seems to talk this way often.

And I haven't seen this model work. It has become very difficult to be a man strong enough to avoid being manipulated, controlled, and cut down with criticism and rejection, to be the rock in the storm, but to still be sensitive, eager to please, romantic, and emotionally open, and then if you can do all of that perfectly then you are still at the mercy of the fact that you need a partner who will remain committed during the times that things aren't going well. So even if you play perfectly you are still the underdog.I haven't seen those couples where the woman talks lovingly about how amazing her husband is, how sensitive and caring, and the man talks about how awesome his wife is and how fulfilling their sex lives are. Other than couples that are 6 months back from their honeymoon. What I see are the majority that are divorced, rampant infidelity where both sexes try to meet their needs outside of the relationship, and dissatisfaction where the marriages aren't legally dissolved in a few years.

Painter, I'm actually not disagreeing. I love your explanation, and I won't pretend for a minute that I couldn't do a better job in my next marriage. I'm not suggesting that it's impossible to please a woman. This may be the only way things will work. And maybe our society is on it's way to figuring that out and the current epidemic of divorce is just some growing pains. Maybe in a few years the needle swings back and these relationships start forming and lasting more and more. Lord I hope so. I'd love to see this happen.

All of the comments I have made are just me venting the frustration at spending my life trying to find a way to win a game that seemed unwinnable. Because when I look at the landscape I don't feel confident I can navigate through, nor do I feel confident that any partner would remain committed during difficulty. It truly just looks like a bad fork in the road.

Anyone that wants to say that I am jaded, scared of being hurt again, etc, YES. I am. I am standing back and watching with interest what the rest of the world does while I focus on walking the path in front of me. Right now that path is tending to my children, doing well at work, and taking care of myself. The good news is I am fascinated on our evolving society as a result of my experience, so if nothing else I've a new hobby.

Thank you all for the feedback. I don't write all of this because I have a political platform or nothing else to do. This is clearly stuff that is important to me and I appreciate you taking the time to discuss this so respectfully.

[Ralph88]

Wow, your situation and mine are so similar. The STBXW always complained, no matter what I did, every turn every action I chased. She would say we had no emotional connection and I would extend an olive branch, try for long periods to facilitate building these things and she would always cut me down, but she never initiated anything. When I was not the pursuer for sex, she complained, when I pursued, she complained that I wanted sex. Then 3 months or so before BD, it got even worse, even more everything I did was a fault, she never had any and never apologized. This may have been the time the OM started creeping in. Anyways, I'm glad to see your times getting better every day.

'Difficult times are here, but not here to stay.'

[SunnyB]

Zues, spoiler, the forest gets destroyed. You have to come out sometime.

[J5K]

Zues126,

I hear you. I feel the same way you do!
I have no hope that a second marriage will work.
I am at the point where I am seriously considering getting involved in a coalition that wants to drive change in divorce laws. These states that have no fault laws make it so easy for people to get out of their MR. This is not fair to the family unit.
There is always a solution to every problem and I have kept that motto with me at work and family life. I feel this is an optimistic outlook for me, but when feelings come into play with a D in process the nice spouse gets the short end of the stick. My heart breaks for the LBS.

Forgiveness is important to me and I wish that my WW would forgive. I have little hope that she ever will. It makes me sad that I will have to spend the rest of my life dealing with an unreasonable person that does not respect me and the sanctity of marriage.

[SunnyB]

I am at the point where I am seriously considering getting involved in a coalition that wants to drive change in divorce laws. These states that have no fault laws make it so easy for people to get out of their MR. This is not fair to the family unit.

I live in a no fault state. Making divorce harder and more expensive wouldn't have saved my marriage. I don't think that's the answer. I've stayed out of Zues's societal shift discussion, but I think that's where the real answer lies. It's people's attitudes towards personal happiness over family loyalty, the throw-away mentality that's so prevalent. By the time you get to the lawyer's office, its' done.

[Painter]

What I described as a good or great relationship, requires both parties to be able to recognize their own needs and talk about them in a way that the other person can understand.

Unfortunately, many women (and men) are not comfortable doing that. I remember seeing a male counselor earlier in our marriage, who told me that my needs and - you can call it requirements - from H were reasonable and normal, and that I didn't do what many women do, which is expect him to guess what I need and feeling like it doesn't count if I had to tell him.

Unfortunately, he didn't explain to me how h could feel it was criticism when I expressed my needs.

And nobody can fulfill someone else's needs all the time, every day. There will be ups and downs. But if you can fairly regularly fulfill a few important needs for the other person, even if it is just listening - women really want to be listened to and validated, and I think that's one of the hardest things for men to do, because they feel it's either criticism or something they need to fix - I think that's replenishing the clue that holds you together.

Of course you are afraid of being hurt again! It would be very strange if you were not. I am, too. I doubt very much that I will ever experience this relationship that I think can exist.

[Painter]

Sunny, a no-fault law says to married people that there's nothing wrong with being unfaithful, because there's no punishment for it. That's a problem, in my mind. An at-fault state penalizes the person who has an affair or otherwise misbehaves toward their partner. I think that's the way it should be, and I know that's what made my H at least think twice about separating.

[SunnyB]

Sunny, a no-fault law says to married people that there's nothing wrong with being unfaithful, because there's no punishment for it. That's a problem, in my mind. An at-fault state penalizes the person who has an affair or otherwise misbehaves toward their partner. I think that's the way it should be, and I know that's what made my H at least think twice about separating.

Painter, this goes back to legislating morals. My incentive for being faithful to my H was never legal punishment.

I don't believe for a second that Mr P would have been faithful had we not lived in a no fault state. That wasn't on his radar screen at the time.

[J5K]

Sunny,

Maybe I should have been more clear, I think more time needs to be added for the cool down period and that counseling should be a requirement. That may or may not change the R of a couple. At least it would be equal ground to say that both sides could say they did everything they could to save the M.

More importantly, I feel that prior to getting into an M, a couple should go through multiple courses and have counseling to ensure they understand how to communicate. Whether that training is heard by both sides is on each individual.

My point is I would not want to force anyone to stay in an M they are not happy with but I believe that education of communication and the results of a D should be understood by both H & W.

[vise82]

Hey I agree with courses before marriage and at the start of the MR. We did have church classes but we both just brushed them off. Couldn't see the value in them at the time.

There are skills that need to be learned. I did not know that at the time. I think most people just go in to MR blind and hope for the best. I know I did.