I've been really fighting a reluctance to start a new thread. I've been struggling a bit and haven't felt like myself lately. Thank you Sunny for checking in on me, and for all of you for being a bit patient with me.
Financially I am in the twilight zone. I found out today that XW's lawyer rejected my financial proposal. They want more money. I sent my lawyer a pay stub. Right now I am giving XW 60% of my net income. My rent accounts for another 35% of my net income. I am going backwards thousands of dollars a month as I am broke before I buy food or gas. Here is a clip of the email I sent back to my lawyer today:
The reality is that the numbers in our proposal were beyond my reach already. With those support and maintenance payments I absolutely could not meet my personal obligations. My father has lent me X overall, my credit card balance is moving back up, my bank account is approaching $0, and I see no relief in sight. I was prepared to sign our proposal with the hope that my father could help me through this impossible stretch until the obligations decreased and my employment smoothed out one way or another. But let's be honest, what I've been asked to do is well beyond my capacity. To think there is more money here is beyond my ability to fathom.
Would the courts really look at my budget, my last 5 W2s, my current pay stubs, and order me to payout to the point I can't keep a roof over my head? As a man doing my best to provide for my children daily do I have any legal protection here?
So here's the crux. XW asked for a divorce. I was advised to leave the house because "If she wants me out, she can get me out", basically a trumped up abuse card would force me out anyway so I'd better cooperate. I live in a 2 bedroom apartment now, XW has the house. I work 45-50 hours a week of a stressful job. XW hasn't worked a day in the two years since BD. I am paying my lawyer $1,000/month. XW has a court appointed lawyer that is absolutely free. I am trying to find ways to earn more at work. XW is finding government assistance programs for single moms, hardship programs, and using her free lawyer to demand more from me. The first 6 months after BD I was visiting the kids, then it was every other weekend, and finally two years later it's 50/50.
And they ask for more. The settlement itself was already unattainable. They might as well ask me to fly in the air. They are asking for things that are absolutely impossible. I am failing to keep up with a standard of living that is half of hers, while I am working full time and we both have equal parental time. She is going to school with the idea of increasing her future income, which I applaud. But I simply don't have what I was advised to offer, and they want more.
It's a game that can't be won. These laws are screwy. I told my mom tonight that I could accept an unfair settlement, knowing that life wasn't fair, and that maybe the laws had to be set in a way that were unfair for me so that they may be appropriate for LBW's in a hard place. So I can accept unfair if they're just unfair. But when they become impossible, I don't know what to do. I don't have the money.
And I struggle with this. I'd get it if I was a dead beat, working cash jobs, not making payments. I'd get it if I was deliberately being underemployed to game the system. But I've always been a high earner, a hard worker, a top performer. I don't understand how I can be in a game that is unwinnable.
So my day today was at work, fighting in an already difficult job, only to get this email and have to respond, budget time out of my shortened week for a lawyer call in which I try to schedule a court appointment. I want to get in front of a judge. Either they need to acknowledge that the last two years has been a joke and the settlement needs to adjust significantly or I don't know what I'm supposed to do. I get why some dads go off the grid, start over in a new state or country, and say "try to come find me". I'm not a dead beat. But I can't win an unwinnable game.
So between the fact that XW would walk on the relationship in the first place, to the legally endorsed financial impossibility she's created in my life and the lopsided lifestyle discrepancies, I've been pretty rudely awakened to the consequences of divorce. Needless to say I have some pretty powerful opinions on the lack of justice.
For that reason I am not sure I am in the right forums. These forums are designed for people trying to save their marriage, not people that are struggling with inhumane divorce laws. I have looked into other forums, such as MGTOW (men going their own way, a group of men who's mission is to educate men on the negative cost/benefit evaluation of marriage to avoid this predicament) and men's right's activists groups like A Voice for Men. The problem is that these groups are radical, and while the foundation is based on ideas that make some sense to me, the practice is much, much different. Many of the members are extreme, disrespectful, and destructive. I don't see a lot of constructive and supportive positive activism and lobbying. Just spew and negativity, of which I don't need more of in my life. These forums mean so much to me, the idea of leaving or losing touch with my friends here would be like switching churches...hard to conceptualize. Maybe it's my loyalty. These forums and the folks on them have helped me through this path, I don't know how I could've gotten through without all of you. I just can't see myself ever leaving. And there is no way I could ever replace any of you, or find a group this supportive. (edited- time to move to surviving the divorce, maybe I'll be less disruptive out of the main forum).
I don't know how this plays out. It is hard to believe this will play out with me being evicted, imprisoned, or having to flee my family and start over elsewhere. But I wouldn't have believed these last two years if I hadn't have lived them. So I'll just wait and see what the courts say, do my best, and let the cards fall where they will.
In the meantime I'm trying hard not to let that spoil the time I have with my children. I am compartmentalization like never before. I shut all of this off and spend time with them. We are absolutely having amazing time together.
I am setting up chess puzzles. I don't just ask them for the best move. I ask them how they evaluate the position. Material count. Pawn structure. King safety. Weaknesses like undefended or overworked pieces. Then I ask them to identify whether their opponent has any threats, if there are quiet moves possible or if we should be looking primarily at forcing moves. Then we make observations, like "if the knight wasn't guarding d7 then there would be mate with the rook", or other things like that. Just getting familiar with the board. Finally, we look at the candidate moves, and work through continuations. In the end, I still have to guide them to the solutions with questions, but they are coming up with amazing insights at times, and are starting to not just move pieces, but play the game and see the beauty in it that I do. It's amazing to see the light come on.
Lord of the Rings is going good. SPOILER ALERT! So, last night I was reading "The choices of master samwise" in which Sam thinks that Frodo is dead. I was done reading but my daughter got really sad and was crying that Frodo died, so I was like fine, we'll keep reading, and I read all the way until they figured out that he was just poisoned. It got to be a late night but I couldn't leave her hanging. In the end I'm glad she cares that much. I don't like to see her cry, but I'm glad they love the books enough to get that drawn into them. Oh, and they're starting to read more on their own which is unreal.
Other than that I'm just chilling with my mom here. It's good to have another adult around. We can talk about things that the kids can learn from. Last night we talked about the revolution and declaration of independence. Tonight we were talking about how electoral votes work in preparation for the election, and a bit about the 2000 election and the story of the recount. These are things I wouldn't talk about much on my own, but it's cool that we can talk about adult subjects and then my kids can learn a bit while staying engaged and participating. Oh, and they're all doing a great job of expanding their diet, eating their food, and getting used to eating at the kitchen table.
So in the end it's just life. I have problems with which I'm not clear how they will be resolved, but so does everyone. I still have a roof over my head, I still see my kids, and I still have the choices I can make about what I do each day, whether to be appreciative or negative, whether I do my best or give up. It has been hard, I will tell you that I've never felt more defeated by life, ever. But I will keep walking and whatever happens I know that I will have done my best and the times I'm having today are irreplaceable.
Me:38 XW:38 T:11 years M:8 years Kids: S14, D11, D7 BD/Move out day: 6/17/14, D final Dec 15
Would the courts really look at my budget, my last 5 W2s, my current pay stubs, and order me to payout to the point I can't keep a roof over my head? As a man doing my best to provide for my children daily do I have any legal protection here?
Maybe you will be better off going to court.
The reality is that most of these things do not get settled by a judge but are what is agreed upon between the two parties.
So I suggest you continue to fight and stand up for what is fair to you. If your STBXW wont agree maybe suggest you pay more legal fees and fight about it with a judge.
I agree 100% w/Cadet's posting. Sometimes it can't be helped...you have to go to court, have the judge hear your case and review your documents and/or proposals in order to get the settlement worked out.
Sit quietly, the answers will reveal themselves when you least expect them to. The past is gone, the present is a gift and you need to focus on today, allow the future to reveal itself when it is ready.
Zues, first, welcome to the neighborhood. I'll bring over a pan of brownies later. I'll leave them on the porch and ring the door bell and run, lest we actually meet and become friends.
I'm sorry what you are going through with the unreasonable financial demands. I'm always surprised to hear that someone's D is playing out that way, having been through a D myself. There was never any possibility of my taking 60% of his income and demanding more, I don't understand how that'viable for anyone. I agree with Cadet and Job, a judge very well may be your best bet here.
As far as your being on the right board, not all of us here on Surviving are trying to save our M. I'm not. This board is more about trying to negotiate our lives and our Xs and sometimes new relationships. It's always full of support and wisdom, and I'm glad you are here.
Hi Zues, welcome to this part of the forum and I'm also not trying to save anything but myself here. I moved over here to be among people who are/have divorced and are moving forward after that - perhaps dating at some point and just living life as a newly single person. I think you are in the right place FWIW.
I'm so sorry the financials are difficult. In our settlement we looked at our total assets, each took back what we brought in and split the rest 50/50. There was big growth of assets during our M, largely due to XH's business success and a lucky property investment. I took half of that growth, which may have stung for XH. I'm at peace with that. It felt fair to me as I see us as a team during that period. I find it hard to imagine being the one who was unfaithful AND seeking to strip your spouse of most of their income. I shake my head at that.
It strikes me that your ex, purely needs a short period of time in which to get back on her feet and earn an income. It doesn't seem unreasonable to me to agree to a short period of X, which becomes Y after X period of time. I certainly don't think you should settle for something you feel to be blatantly unfair - that will rankle for such a long time if you do that. I agree that court may be a good option, given the unreasonable position she is taking. You both have the kids 50/50 and have housing needs. You have an income now and she doesn't. However, she is able to work and there is no reason why she shouldn't.
Perhaps you could give her a last opportunity to reach a reasonable settlement and failing that, progress things to court. Also, I wanted to ask - are there any local 'fathers rights' organisations who may help you with what you are facing?
I hope you manage to get things resolved soon - it will be a weight lifted for sure when you do.
In the meantime, do take care xx
T 13 M 7 Me 48 H 46 SS 15 BD 7.14 PA D final 5.16 (H filed)
We receive & we lose, and must try to achieve gratitude & embrace with whole hearts whatever of life that remains after the losses - Dubus
Zues thank you for you kind words on my thread. (((Zues))). I will respond over there, to your thoughts and comments, particularly about my mum, if you are interested to know.
As for the situation you find yourself in. I am so sorry for the stress of the financial situation. Fairness and justice can sometimes seem so elusive in these situations. My little social worker brain struggles with it. Like you I see the need for the fairness for issues of gender, LBW's as you call them. But sometimes it feels like the pendulum has swung ridiculously the other way.
Through the course of my personal life and professional career I have seen human beings and the use of the law manipulated to hurt and cost people significantly. The cost being people's emotional well being, financial independence and their dignity.
I know the men's groups and forum's you write about are inviting. When you mentioned reading them in May, I was very concerned and worried for you. I said nothing as I felt that it was likely a journey you have needed to take. I am so glad to read your comments today.
I have been a social worker on the recieving end of three men who have belonged to such groups. I can only say that I would have preferred removing children from a gun weilding, coked up gang member, than deal with those three father's ever again.
I know those men were in extreme pain and likely the extreme end of men/father's attracted to the kind of rhetoric that is expoused at times. They made me feel incrediably unsafe, with their anger, and gender driven sexual nature of there abuse towards me. But it was also the obsessive nature to which they were prepared to sacrifice themselves and their relationships only to prove their beliefs. I saw lives destroyed. I did not want that for you.
As for this forum, this is a safe place to land for you at any time through this journey. It is likely that because you are still here, myself and others who post to you still come back. I know you are one of the reasons that I return at least weekly to see how you are and where you are at with things.
I believe you will find this part of the forum more optimistic and a little more based in the reality of daily living. There is a sense of maturity and balance in this part of the board that is settling and calming. People share more of the everyday of their lives, with children and hopes, wishes and dreams of the future. Of course there is the reality of making co-parenting work, and the disappointments and wins of working through the divorce process and the on-going need to move through the impact of D. I believe it is a good thing to see you here. It warms my heart greatly.
I am rambling a bit, but I what I really wanted to say, is related to the journey you took to have the shared care of your children. With great consideration, and quiet determination, you moved that mountain. I know this journey feels never-ending and the pain overwhelming to you, and in my heart of hearts I wish you had more peace with it. But I also know in my heart of hearts that your financial situation will be another mountain you will move with as much grace and strength as your did the first. I will take that bet that you make this shot!!
We are here, we are your cheerleading section, we are on your team and we are never far away if you need any of us. You are much loved Zues. I wish you knew how much and my wish for the future is maybe you will open your life further for these friendships to really come to full fruition.
As always my friend I wish you much love and peace.
I echo what everyone has said, especially what Cadet said. This is a numbers game. usually people settle to because they are advised to, feel bad, or don't have the energy. I know court is expensive within itself, but if they are king for an amount that makes it unsustainable for you to live, you need to bring this before a judge. The numbers need to add p for the both of you. There needs to be put a time limit and a circumstance in which she becomes employable.
I understand how frustrating that fine line must be where it is unfair, to where it just isn't doable.
I also want to thank you for your response on Cnut's thread. I didn't want to reply there as to not totally hijak it. What you said makes complete sense. I appreciate your compliment where you say if someone can put the kids first, it's me. However, you would e shocked to know I never neglected the M. We parented together for 6 months (he was cheating the whole time, I had no clue). We went to a Halloween party together when our D was a few weeks old (got a babysitter), I got my aunt to watch our D for Valentines day (when he was talking to OW the whole way home in a separate car) We had a few date nights, and I even arranged for us to get two nights away when she was 6 months old. He left me 2 days later.
As a single mom dater, I will go out of my way find a babysitter, I was the one who drove 3 hours every weekend to see my ex boyfriend. I was the one who rearranged my parenting schedule to see my ex boyfriend or any ther guy I dated. They never did the me for me.
So I do believe in putting an R first. And actually, as a single mom, I believe in putting myself first sometimes. So when I say my daughter is my priority, her well being always will be. Anything that does not benefit her well being just isn't go to work. ANd the right guy wouldn't compromise the well being my daughter.
Welcome to surviving the big D. We all surivived. We rebuilt, or are rebuilding, and just navigating r lives over here.
Zues, welcome to Surviving. I'm thrilled to be divorced. I was a sahm for 12 years and it's been very, very hard on he kids and on me getting back into the workforce -- and will be hard for several more years -- but it's worth the effort.
WRT support -- I receive a bit less than 1/2 of Mr. Fantastic's gross base. He makes a very large bonus so although he had arranged his paycheck such that it looked like I was taking about 80% of the net (and he complained that he'd be living on less than a gas station attendant), he has managed things just fine and now lives in a house that cost almost twice mine. I'll need every penny he pays in support to get back on my feet and support the kids through high school and college. When my youngest graduates high school in ten years I will be 100% on my own. If I get remarried -- which I'd like to do, someday -- I'll give up half my support. So one of my professional goals is to get my career sufficiently on track that I can choose remarriage without making a choice that would financially cripple me (or put me in the position of ever, ever again being dependent on a man).
All that to say -- support is important and necessary, but there's no reason for you to agree to anything that would financially cripple you. And I agree with job, cadet, and everyone else who said, court looks like your best option.
Divorce is stupid and wasteful and destructive. But I'll tell you what -- it is also liberating. I hope you get to find that out.
Welcome to the hood, and I hope we help you find your happy place.
Me42, H40 D12, S8, S7 A revealed: 7/13 Sep 4/14; Agreed to D 1/15
