Stuck in limbo V

[Doug54]

Good Morning Doug

when I come to this board, LH gets me fired up about how much better my life will be if I move on from W, DnJ brings me back to earth with his Gandhi-like wisdom and calls for empathy, and Ready2change makes me want to shove W's dresser out of the master bedroom in exchange for a spitoon and a Hugh Hefner smoking jacket.

This reminded me of The Two Wolves (I shared it if you’re not familiar with the parable). Which wolf you feeding?

D

Thanks for chiming in, DnJ. I'm not really in a good place with things. I wish I were going home to a house in which W would be somewhere else. I have a hard time conjuring up feelings of empathy towards W in light of what's going on.

I would certainly like to feed the compassion and kindness wolf but it's proving more difficult these days.

I'm trying to latch onto LH's oft-repeated line about "You won't always feel this way" but I imagine I may have to do the heavy lifting after W gets a better job unless it turns out she's somehow motivated to do it herself (heavy lifting = setting D in motion). I'm a little disappointed in myself for not being better at this point at "dropping the rope" but I feel like I'm being too lenient with this waywardness.

FWIW, I'm taking sex off the table. I don't know if there's any point seeing that W has to traverse this landscape of MLC herself. There's a little segment in DR from the chapter on infidelity called "When S/he Won't End the Affair." I certainly question why I'm putting up with it.

(Apologies for the rambling post.)

[DnJ]

Good Morning Doug

The Story of Two Wolves

I go and say I shared it, and then forget to just place a link for ease of finding it. Lol.

I'm not really in a good place with things. I wish I were going home to a house in which W would be somewhere else. I have a hard time conjuring up feelings of empathy towards W in light of what's going on.

Feeding one’s light side takes an effort. And some days are more difficult than others.

Do realize, feelings are fleeting. And you will not always feel this way.

Some feedback from the “but” police (and such):

I would certainly like to feed the compassion and kindness wolf but it's proving more difficult these days.

I'm trying to latch onto LH's oft-repeated line about "You won't always feel this way" but I imagine I may have to do the heavy lifting after W gets a better job unless it turns out she's somehow motivated to do it herself (heavy lifting = setting D in motion).

I'm a little disappointed in myself for not being better at this point at "dropping the rope" but I feel like I'm being too lenient with this waywardness.

An internal war going on within you. Peace comes when both light and dark are fed. By the way, the dark wolf craves acknowledgment. That’s all. Not action. Not even decision. Just simply acknowledging your feelings and impulses.

Lead and live the light wolf. Listen and lean on the dark wolf.

Tenacity, courage, fearlessness, strong-willed, strategic thinking, and such come from ego and pride, our dark wolf. One should not starve that.

Light and dark, good and evil are for illustration. And for highlighting the default vision we usually have. It’s how one utilizes their traits, how one lives, that determines their balance or unbalance.

I would certainly like to feed the compassion and kindness wolf but it's proving more difficult these days.

It’s great you are wanting to feed your light wolf. Why are you finding that difficult these days? W’s path is about her. You cannot control or alter it. Your path is likewise about you. Her behaviour, her actions, cannot control or alter you path. Unless you let them.

Be strong-willed and fearless in your pursuit and reinforcement of your hope, serenity, kindness, benevolence, empathy, compassion, and faith.

I'm trying to latch onto LH's oft-repeated line about "You won't always feel this way" but I imagine I may have to do the heavy lifting after W gets a better job unless it turns out she's somehow motivated to do it herself (heavy lifting = setting D in motion).

Do or do not, there is no try.

Imagining is the first step towards creation.

Why are you tying the two above quoted ideas together? “But” is often used to justify one’s thoughts or actions.

Latch on to, believe in, you will not always feel this way. I’m pretty sure you know the temporariness of feelings. No bringing in the other stuff to muddy the waters. Deal with that separate.

So, the other stuff, the heavy lifting. Why? Why imagine you will need to D. And after she gets a better job. (Further justification and talking yourself into this path btw.)

If you need a divorce. Not want, need. For financial protection, or abuse, or assault, or some such, then get it. However, three years.

Now, if W had a better job, better income, the kids were older, etc., then a D would become a better financial deal for you. Strictly looking at things from the intellectual rational side of the equation. However, we are both rational and irrational creature. Actually, much more leaning towards the latter.

I'm a little disappointed in myself for not being better at this point at "dropping the rope" but I feel like I'm being too lenient with this waywardness.

Two views being concatenated/force together. Please do not reinforce your feelings of disappointment through some self amplification of culpability/lenience of her behaviour.

Dropping the rope:

Drop the rope or be dragged. It’s detachment. It’s letting go.

To me, detachment is when one stops getting their emotions uncontrollably dragged around by their spouse’s words, behaviours, and actions. Uncontrollable being a key point.

Doug, your emotions are not uncontrollable dragged about.

Indifference is that numbness and absence of feeling that comes after detachment. Indifference, like all emotions, is temporary and does unwind. I suspect you know and understand what I speak of. I think you’ve experienced indifference.

Do realize, you can influence your state of indifference. Not control, rather influence. You can through thought and action amplify indifference towards W, temporary as it will be, as all feelings do flit. Still, it’s a useful skill to be able to employ.

I believe you do “let go”. And then grab on again. Perfectly normal. Acknowledge that. And not in some culpable blameful manner. Acknowledge that you have achieved indifference before. And it is a temporary state. And you can achieve it again, as necessary. Seeing your positive progress will strengthen the gains you have achieved.

So, why are you disappointed in yourself? It’s not about dropping the rope, IMHO. Expectations, maybe.

I don't know if there's any point seeing that W has to traverse this landscape of MLC herself.

W has to traverse her path, the troubled landscape of emotional turmoil, by herself. Lots of value in understanding and empathizing with that.

What about your path? You up for it?

I certainly question why I'm putting up with it.

Good to ask questions. It challenges one’s convictions.

Are you putting up with it? Really? That question gives the illusion that you can control it. That you could stop it. Divorced or not, W is going to do what she is going to do.

It’s acceptance, not putting up with it. That’s your path.

FWIW, I'm taking sex off the table.

Yeah, tables hurt the back.

So, why now? What are you expecting?

Are you doing this for you?

In most situations cake-eating is not recommended. Disrespect and all that. It’s more for the LBS’ sanity, and not some tactic to win or alter the other’s path or wake them up. However, if the LBS can remain balanced, and there is not a full blown affair - most spouses cease sex with an active affair - having sex keeps the home fires burning.

I think you are trying to shake things up. To shake the tree. Though whose tree - her’s or your’s. Personally, I think it’s yours.

Mindful, calm. Answers present themselves when one is calm and still.

Feed and acknowledge what’s inside you. Find peace.

D

[LH19]

I wish I were going home to a house in which W would be somewhere else.

Unfortunately that is the sad reality of IHS. I remember the days of the dread when I pulled in the driveway.

I have a hard time conjuring up feelings of empathy towards W in light of what's going on.

That's ok Doug. You are entitled to your feelings.

I would certainly like to feed the compassion and kindness wolf but it's proving more difficult these days.

Until you lived in IHS eats easy to come up with clever euphemisms.

I'm trying to latch onto LH's oft-repeated line about "You won't always feel this way" but I imagine I may have to do the heavy lifting after W gets a better job unless it turns out she's somehow motivated to do it herself (heavy lifting = setting D in motion).

Maybe or maybe not. She may file tomorrow. I do promise you though you will not always feels this way.

I'm a little disappointed in myself for not being better at this point at "dropping the rope" but I feel like I'm being too lenient with this waywardness.

Dropping the rope in IHS is extremely difficult.

FWIW, I'm taking sex off the table.

Good for you! Not easy though.

I don't know if there's any point seeing that W has to traverse this landscape of MLC herself.

Yep it's her journey to take.

There's a little segment in DR from the chapter on infidelity called "When S/he Won't End the Affair." I certainly question why I'm putting up with it.

Yep. MWD talks about the last resort technique, after the last resort techniques, ultimatums and going dark. These are proactive, powerful things that show you are serious. They almost never get mentioned or implemented on the forums. The nature of a forum leads to lots of analysis about every conversation, text and facial expression in the relationship. The only real change you need to make it clear, solid, boundaries and being hard-core about what you want and need. People respond to that. Being an emotional chameleon, "trying" to be detached doesn't work. Set boundaries, set ultimatums. This is hard, but, it helps avoid all the back and forth. Does she want to be married to you or not? Thus far it doesn't sound like it. Act on that. If you want something else, state it. You can say, "If you want to work on this marriage, fine, if you don't, I have some decisions to make in the next few weeks." Strength and clarity are attractive.

[bttrfly]

LH is right, LRT is not mentioned as much as some other tools. It is something that you absolutely have to be 100% sure you can follow through on, or it will rebound on you in a bad way.

Most people are afraid to do a LRT because they aren't ready to face the consequences of their own boundary setting.

As with everything you do, you need to mean what you say, say what you mean and follow through for this to work, and even then you may not get the result you want. So you better be sure before you pull the trigger on a LRT.

Once you are sure, though, and you do take that step, there is a peace that comes to you knowing you've done all you can. That's very empowering.

[Doug54]

Thanks for your thoughts, DnJ.

Do realize, feelings are fleeting. And you will not always feel this way.

This I have found to be true.

So, the other stuff, the heavy lifting. Why? Why imagine you will need to D. And after she gets a better job. (Further justification and talking yourself into this path btw.)

D, I'm telling you. She has no incentive to end this affair. I get that divorce has rampant collateral damage. She may surprise me and file herself at some point. My money's not on it, though. As far as "after she gets a better job" - Kind18 posted this on a previous thread of mine:

I can’t stress this enough - do not initiate divorce yet.

You need to wait it out. Let her text OM, let her simmer away…. But don’t push her, set ultimatums or lose control of your emotions.

You need to wait until she has finished her degree in June. And then go out of your way to help get her a well paid, full time job.

Once that’s done, then you can consider pulling the rip cord.

I don’t know what country you’re in, but regardless, if you wait until she has a degree and well paid job - you could be hundreds of thousands or even millions of dollars better off in a financial divorce settlement.

If you need a divorce. Not want, need. For financial protection, or abuse, or assault, or some such, then get it. However, three years.

Are you saying your recommendation is that I give it three years?

What about your path? You up for it?

When I think about my path right now, the best visuals in my head involve living in my own place, having the kids without W around to nitpick or be on her phone.

In most situations cake-eating is not recommended. Disrespect and all that. It’s more for the LBS’ sanity, and not some tactic to win or alter the other’s path or wake them up. However, if the LBS can remain balanced, and there is not a full blown affair - most spouses cease sex with an active affair - having sex keeps the home fires burning.

Yes, I'm already wavering on this one. Partly because I don't know what it will prove to W and partly because if I get hit by a bus next week or month, was there a victory in being celibate?

Divorced or not, W is going to do what she is going to do.

Under the divorce scenario, I will have moved on and have no stake in what she's doing, spending, or anything else.

For what it's worth, all my musings about D are projected forward - I'm not contemplating any action today. Here's a scenario - W gets the new job and decides it's better to stay married for the kids while continuing to have some relationship on the side. Eff that.

[bttrfly]

Here's the secret:

It's up to you, not her.

It's your timeline.

It's when YOU'VE had enough.

That's why we say focus on you.

That's why we say strong GAL activities.

That's why we say don't wait. if you absorb nothing else, absorb this:

STANDING IS NOT WAITING

[Doug54]

Yep. MWD talks about the last resort technique, after the last resort techniques, ultimatums and going dark. These are proactive, powerful things that show you are serious. They almost never get mentioned or implemented on the forums. The nature of a forum leads to lots of analysis about every conversation, text and facial expression in the relationship. The only real change you need to make it clear, solid, boundaries and being hard-core about what you want and need. People respond to that. Being an emotional chameleon, "trying" to be detached doesn't work. Set boundaries, set ultimatums. This is hard, but, it helps avoid all the back and forth. Does she want to be married to you or not? Thus far it doesn't sound like it. Act on that. If you want something else, state it. You can say, "If you want to work on this marriage, fine, if you don't, I have some decisions to make in the next few weeks." Strength and clarity are attractive.

LH, I know you have a gift for remembering all kinds of details in different posters' situations, so I'm fairly sure you're aware it behooves me to wait until this summer at the earliest before bolting. In fact, I don't think you have advised me to do otherwise.

That said, would you mind throwing me any details of how you came to move out for 3 months during your situation? The one who wants a D should be the one to move out, right?

When I spoke with a lawyer last May, he told me that if one person really wants the divorce, they usually need to be the one to move out, at least to get the ball rolling. I have a colleague who said a judge ruled on which spouse had to vacate in her situation (there were kids involved). I have no idea how common that one is. There's also the counselor from when W and I did the few sessions last summer who said people agree to lie about their IHS timeline to speed up the process and no one is the wiser as far as the paperwork. In my state (and most?) you have to be separated for a year when there are kids before D goes through.

[Doug54]

Here's the secret:

It's up to you, not her.

It's your timeline.

It's when YOU'VE had enough.

That's why we say focus on you.

That's why we say strong GAL activities.

That's why we say don't wait. if you absorb nothing else, absorb this:

STANDING IS NOT WAITING

Thanks, bttrfly. I am reading "Women in Midlife Crisis" by Jim & Sally Conway (recommended on this forum) and it's crazy how much of W I see in some of the descriptions, especially the self-esteem / self-image parts, focusing on looks to try to ward of the feeling of aging, and how people become susceptible to an affair.

Assume status quo continues, I will almost certainly have "had enough" by the summer.

[DnJ]

Hello Doug

If you need a divorce. Not want, need. For financial protection, or abuse, or assault, or some such, then get it. However, three years.

Are you saying your recommendation is that I give it three years?

Sorry about that. Didn’t mean to leave such a hanging and incomplete sentence.

No, I was not alluding to any time line. I was thinking/considering something you had said in your summary.

-August 2019: stepdaughter goes away to college. W cries on the drive home after we move her in. In hindsight, I'm wondering if this was a kickoff point for W's MLC.

Three years since W’s possible kickoff/trigger for her struggles. A year and a half later the laptop incident. Then March-ish 2022 BD.

You are almost a year from BD, three years from probable inception. Was just considering want vs need for divorce. Doing something undesirable out of need or want has different associated guilt and repercussions.

My recommendation would be to not take actions that purposefully lead to divorce. Let her do the heavy lifting. Unless you need it. Mental health, emotional health, financial health, and so on - you define the point of need.

Just some thoughts.

Glad you asked for clarification. Have a great day Doug.

D

[LH19]

Yep. MWD talks about the last resort technique, after the last resort techniques, ultimatums and going dark. These are proactive, powerful things that show you are serious. They almost never get mentioned or implemented on the forums. The nature of a forum leads to lots of analysis about every conversation, text and facial expression in the relationship. The only real change you need to make it clear, solid, boundaries and being hard-core about what you want and need. People respond to that. Being an emotional chameleon, "trying" to be detached doesn't work. Set boundaries, set ultimatums. This is hard, but, it helps avoid all the back and forth. Does she want to be married to you or not? Thus far it doesn't sound like it. Act on that. If you want something else, state it. You can say, "If you want to work on this marriage, fine, if you don't, I have some decisions to make in the next few weeks." Strength and clarity are attractive.

LH, I know you have a gift for remembering all kinds of details in different posters' situations, so I'm fairly sure you're aware it behooves me to wait until this summer at the earliest before bolting. In fact, I don't think you have advised me to do otherwise.

That said, would you mind throwing me any details of how you came to move out for 3 months during your situation? The one who wants a D should be the one to move out, right?

When I spoke with a lawyer last May, he told me that if one person really wants the divorce, they usually need to be the one to move out, at least to get the ball rolling. I have a colleague who said a judge ruled on which spouse had to vacate in her situation (there were kids involved). I have no idea how common that one is. There's also the counselor from when W and I did the few sessions last summer who said people agree to lie about their IHS timeline to speed up the process and no one is the wiser as far as the paperwork. In my state (and most?) you have to be separated for a year when there are kids before D goes through.

Doug I left my house the night it unfolded to stay with a friend. Basically lived out of a suitcase for 3 months. This was all before I found DB. The bakery was definitely open and I was serving cake big time.

You can D and live together until it’s final and whoever finds another house. Although not ideal it’s definitely doable. I’m not a don’t do the heavy lifting supporter. Do what you need to do to get the best deal and move it along. The longer it drags out the worse it feels for both parties.

This of course is only if you are ready to pull the trigger.