well I did have a nice long post written to you but as I was finnishing it up h bumped me off line (at least I know he is at the office. ha ha)
any way the gist of what I was typing then is that though she may have the words to write in a journal they may not be clear thoughts...but simply an out pouring of many emotions that she can't express to you because she herself is not clear on them...try not to be threatend by her journalling but instead look at it as her way of trying to work through things within herself.
the statements you read could mean anything...could have reference to you and could also have absolutely nothing to do with you at all.
I really wish my other post didn't get lost...
hope I made some sense and possibly offered a little comfort.
KAW..sorry you are feeling like you're at square one..only difference is you are much stronger..wiser and better able to pick yourself up and keep going then you were a year ago. Maybe your w truly is not sure what she is feeling..and can't share with you what she's not sure herself..
You have been a piller of strength here..I have not felt..yet..like I need to take time off..I still need to come here and just journal my feelings..and to offer my support to friends who are hurting too. Sue
You won’t be hearing much from me. I’m mostly staying off the boards. Frankly, I don’t know what possessed me to lurk a little, but when I did, I stumbled onto your latest post and couldn’t resist butting in. You and I are very much in the same place.
How’re things with me? As I mentioned, my W brought up divorce for the first time ever. She went on to tell me that she doesn’t know how she feels about me, and also told me some of the things that she’s trying to come to terms with vis-à-vis how I wronged her.
My response was simply that I love her, and would honestly answer any questions that she might have about my feelings and intentions.
That was two weeks ago, and we haven’t spoken of it since.
Quoting KAW: I'm beginning to wonder if she will ever be comfortable enough to talk to me on this level and that hurts!!! To knew that for whatever reason, she can't share her inner most feelings & thoughts with me.
Sorry, my friend, but maybe she never will. I have serious doubts about my own W’s abilities in that area.
But I’ve come to the conclusion that there is no way I can influence her to confide in me. I made the offer, and it’s now completely out of my hands.
Right now she doesn’t trust you enough to share her feelings. Yeah. It hurts. I know exactly how you feel, KAW. Believe me!
But you have to learn to trust her too. If you keep thinking that her feelings are a product of depression, you’re basically invalidating her feelings. If she feels that you don’t value her feelings, she’ll never tell you about them. If you were in her shoes, would you?
You have to respect her feelings, and trust her judgement before she’ll reciperocate.
Quoting KAW: Last night after she said she needed to work it out for herself, I stopped asking questions, but still let it be known that I was not happy with her decision. The only times she has opened up is when it is her intension to do so. I have yet to find any thing that works to influence her that she can confide in me when she feels like she can't.
That’s exactly what I’m talking about. Stop looking, KAW. Just let her do what she has to do, and trust her.
Scary, but IMHO, essential.
Sorry this post isn't much of a boost, KAW, but perhaps it's the change of strategy you need.
Thanks all for the input and support. Its been really helpful.
Quoting Andy: Just let her do what she has to do, and trust her.
Well, hopefully I have taken the first step in the right direction. I rode it out and last night at diner she said she was doing better and apoligized for putting me through that. She mentioned I looked tired. I replied I didn't get much sleep the prior night. She came back with, "I guess that was my fault". I told her it was no big deal and left it at that. She spent the rest of the evening keeping close and letting me know she wanted me around.
School closed early today. (More snow!) Got a call from W, "Please come home." Spent the afternoon and evening together. She still has an inner struggle going on, but JJ & Andy are right, I have to learn not to take it personally that she feels she has to deal with it on her own and even though I still am kept in the dark, not to let my imagination get the best of me again.
As to sharing, JJ, I do share alot with her. In fact, for the last nine months its struck me odd that as a guy, I seem to be much more expressive than my W wants.
Andy, I'm so sorry to hear that your W still hasn't been able to forgive or let go what is in the past. Honestly, I don't see how any words can say any louder what your actions of the past two years state about your feelings and intentions. I'm truly at a loss to how she can continue to turn a blind eye and a deaf ear to an Andy who has demonstrated so persistantly that he is no longer the Andy she turned away from. I know you have your reasons for staying away from here, but if you feel you need a sounding board, we're all ears and take care...
You've been so great over on my posts, thanks again for caring!
Dropped by to see how you're doing and say hi.
It's so hard to weather not being communicated with, isn't it? Frustrating, for sure! And the mind jumps to awful conclusions, doesn't it?
Ya gotta talk back to the fearful worries, while watching for hopeful, positive signs. This is something you've helped me do so back atcha -- keep up the good efforts, my friend!
Seems like over this W journalling incident you've been really respectful of your W -- giving her space is a very a loving gesture -- and she's clearly grateful, rewarding you with an invitation to move closer.
Smile. I'm proud of youse!
You're very good at helping other people "let go" -- I guess it's because you've had so much practice?
Sending you sunshine (((( o ))))) (or a dog's nose),
Quoting KAW: Andy, I'm so sorry to hear that your W still hasn't been able to forgive or let go what is in the past. Honestly, I don't see how any words can say any louder what your actions of the past two years state about your feelings and intentions. I'm truly at a loss to how she can continue to turn a blind eye and a deaf ear to an Andy who has demonstrated so persistantly that he is no longer the Andy she turned away from. I know you have your reasons for staying away from here, but if you feel you need a sounding board, we're all ears and take care...
It's quite simple, KAW.
She experiences her life through her own mind's eye. As hard as I've tried, I've done things and said things that to her perspective, are completely contrary to what I've been trying to do.
I've been trying hard. You all know that. I think W knows that too, but in her view, there are basic flaws in my attitude. Trying isn't enough.
I guess the key word in what you said is "demonstrated."
What I "demonstrated" to her was pure selfishness. In her world, nothing's changed.
I'm not saying that she lives in some alien world. All I'm saying is that how she experienced OR, like anyone else, is her experiences. Mine are quite different. Our experiences are our own.
That's what makes trusting our SOs so difficult. We're never quite sure how they view us.
You're going through this too, KAW. I'm glad that you haven't damaged your R to the same degree I have. Your W still empathizes with you (thus the apology for "putting you through that."
Well, I didn't come here to whine. I just hope you realize that as long as you have mutual empathy, there's a lot of hope.
Sorry Andy for not responding right away, but I wanted to give what you said some thought. Not to make light of the title to your last thread, but something is just not adding up right for me.
Quoting Andy: What I "demonstrated" to her was pure selfishness. In her world, nothing's changed.
Are you saying that after all you have done to sincerely become a better person for yourself, for her and your children for the better part of two years has not touch her in any noticabley way? The 180's you have implemented over those years and nothing has changed according to her?
The total release of control over what happens to R, the steadfast patience of waiting and accepting whatever fate she eventually decides to choose after all this time, the support of holding the family together whenever she felt she needed to escape it all and ride in fellowship of a MF.
She believes these are the continuing acts of unforgivable selfishness on your behalf??
Andy, I'm just dumbfounded... I just don't know what else to say...
Quoting KAW: She believes these are the continuing acts of unforgivable selfishness on your behalf??
No, KAW. She doesn’t believe that. But you have to realize two things. Firstly, what you just described was your interpretation of what I have done. Not hers. To her mind, all of the things you described are things I should have done from the get-go. They’re things that I shouldn’t have had to change.
Secondly, there is a “new” issue which puts a cloud over our entire 23 year relationship. Please don’t ask me what it is. It’s not something I really want to discuss.
So right now, I must continue to do what I should have been doing all along and trust W to forgive me. It don’t mean nothin’ that you may not think there’s anything to forgive. It don’t mean nothin’ that I may not think there’s anything to forgive. The only thing that matters is that SHE thinks there’s something to forgive, and that she finds the strength to do so.
And it’s not just a matter of forgiveness. She also has to accept aspects of me that she doesn’t like. She has to learn to look at the good stuff and ignore the bad stuff. All I can do to help her is not to throw the bad stuff in her face as a constant reminder.
And it goes back to what I posted to you before. I (and you too, KAW) have to trust my W’s ability to do that.
Quoting ANS: To her mind, all of the things you described are things I should have done from the get-go. They're things that I shouldn't have had to change.
Yes, many of us have made similar mistakes, myself included. At first, we must have done most of the "right" things or they wouldn't have married us. Many of us are guilty of turning on the "auto-pilot" and when we do our behaviors will change slowly without us realizing it, then we may deny it, but everyone does this to some extent. People make mistakes, no way around that one, but the majority tragically enough never realize, admit or turn off the "auto-pilot" and if you were part of that group, I can see some foundation for your W's perception.
For those of us that have turned off the "auto-pilot", we still can't right the wrong we have done. All we can do is atone by keeping the positives going from here on out and the only tool we have to show our resolve is time. It is the best we are capable of doing and the most that can be expected of us. You're right, she can't expect you to "walk on water" or wipe the past sins away. If your W cannot accept that, then I do feel very sorry for you, for I don't see how this can be overcome until (if ever) she decides to change here POV, but I guess you had already came to conclusion in November. I guess another way of putting it is that she still has her "auto-pilot" on and no matter how much turbulance you create (at least in a positive way that would draw you closer) it won't cause her to turn it off. Although, I thought there were signs last fall that she was beginning to reconsider.
I guess so long as you see hope that it will happen, you will hang in there, but at some point it may become clear that she will not change her expectations. I hope then you will consider what is best for Andy's future.
The sad irony here is she is doing the very thing she is accusing you of ... protecting her self-interests at the cost of forsaking all else...
I always consider what’s best for Andy. I cannot, in my particular circumstance, foresee D as something that could be in my or my W’s best interest. There are a multitude of reasons. Looking at it from a cold hard outside perspective, it is not economically feasible. Nor is it feasible in terms of family – especially considering our obligations to our autistic son.
Frankly, if she cannot learn to love me, a loveless M is the best case scenario.
I take some comfort in the fact that this is true not only for me, but for my W. I think that in the same way it forced me to make personal changes, my W may find herself having to do the same thing.
As to the irony part, I have to tell ya, KAW, that the immense stress of our life – especially considering having four children; one of whom is autistic – forces us to protect our self-interests. Once my W came to the conclusion that we couldn’t do it together, she had to do it herself. It’s sad, but not ironic.
That’s why “what’s good for Andy” isn’t my only consideration. And it may not seem like it, but “what’s right for W” isn’t her only consideration either. If it was, and in her current mindset, she probably would already have filed.
