Is it too late after doing EVERYTHING wrong?

[NotAgainPlease]

Hi,
I am new here. My H left in January after several big fights during Christmas & January. We have been married for 8 years in July and together 12 years. We have 2 children age 7 boy/girl twins. My husband is 11 years younger than me.

H left and I did everything wrong and continued it until about a week ago. Begging,pleading, lecturing, kids etc. H had an emotional affair 3 years ago for about 2 mos. We went to Mexico in Oct and had a great time. First (extended)time away without kids since they were born. I have bad PMS and I usually start a fight about the same stupid thing every month. About 2-3 times a year we threaten divorce. After out fight in January he left and I thought he would be back the next day. He always did. Boy was I wrong. He moved out and has been gone since. He was having another emotional affair with one of my friends who new he was thinking about leaving. She was going through a divorce herself. They were commiserating??? Three months after leaving he met some one who he was dating but denied it the whole time. He left his phone at my house and I found texts saying he loved her. The whole time he was telling me he didn't love me bla bla bla and wanted a divorce. We have been fighting ugly for the past 5 months with some good times mixed in. While he was with OW he was still coming to me for sex because he said he would not sleep with her until we were married????? When he has been drinking he would tell me you don't know that we cant work it out and he loved me. The next day he would say I shouldn't believe hem when drinking. He has since broken it off with OW. Said it was too much drama because of me.
H filed for divorce 1 month ago. We were also going to counseling where he was lying about OW. He said it didn't matter we were only there to learn how to communicate for the kids not to get back together. Which he says will NEVER happen.
We are currently working on an agreement to stop the divorce for 3 years for financial reasons. H seems to be more willing now that OW is gone.
We do things together as a family at times with the kids. This is so hard for them and I hate to see it.

I have read DB 5 times and ready to go but is it too late?

I was married in my 20's for 5 years 13 years together and my husband left me for someone else. This is my H first marriage. I desperately want this one to work. Sorry this is so long.
Thank you,
Sally

[Nomopo]

Hi Sally. Welcome, and I'm glad you found this site. A big hug to you from Texas. There are great people and there is great support here. Also, I'm very sorry about your sitch and sorry you have to be here.

is it too late?

There is absolutely no way to know that. I think there is hope in your story, and I heard positives in what you said. But, there is lot to be worried about as well, and my guess is it will take longer than you would like and a lot of patience on your part.

But don't ask if it is too late? It might be, but it might not be. Ask instead what YOU want. Focus on what you can do and you can control, and start implementing your DB plan.

Keep posting,
Nomopo

[NotAgainPlease]

Nomopo,

Thank you for your response. I plan on going forward. I have been positive, happy and nice to my H. Which is a big turnaround from before. I plan to continue it. I am a little confused about if I should be in contact with him or try to distance myself from H. He comes over often to see kids. I used to stay around now I try to stay away. From day one he has asked for space and to live him alone. He says I just can't do it. As for IT it means talking about R as well.
Patience is probably the hardest thing I need to learn!

[Nomopo]

I am a little confused about if I should be in contact with him or try to distance myself from H.

My instincts are that you should not initiate any contact unless there is something you HAVE to discuss (e.g., kids exchange, other kid issue, maybe a financial issue), but be sure you HAVE to discuss it. You don't have to go out of your way to avoid being near him when he comes over, just be relaxed, doing your thing, pleasant. Have a PMA and start becoming the person you want to be. If he is going to be attracted to you again, it will be to that person, not someone lonely, hurting, clingy, pursuing, desperate, cold/mean/nasty, etc.

Patience is probably the hardest thing I need to learn!

True for all of us.

Also, do you have Divorce Remedy? I can't remember. If not, get and read it now. [Edit; reviewed your initial post, and see you have read the book. Ok. JenJam's list is just a summary reminder.]

Below is an excerpt of a post that JenJam gave another newcomer a few weeks ago. I think it is an excellent summary of the DB principles.

Good luck,and keep posting,
Nomopo

Excerpt of JenJam post to sadsadwife, on "The inevitable separation" thread.

I will suggest getting "The Divorce Remedy" and reading it cover to cover. I've posted in below as well (and I don't want to appear big headed here!!!) what worked for me as a start for you - it's mostly a rehash of the DR book anyway, just to keep you going until you get the book.

Hope to see you back soon - take care of yourself
=============================================

OK, also wanted to post what worked for me - most of it will be a rehash of DR, but I thought I'd put it here as a real world example.
JenJam's Top Ten DB Tips:

1. Don't panic. No-one ever made a great decision when in panic. You WILL panic, it's natural, but take NO ACTION when you are in that state. You have to do whatever it takes to calm down before you can tackle ANYTHING.

2. Don't depair. No-one ever got divorced in a week. Divorce, although too easy these days still take time. you DO have time to turn things about.

3. You first step is not to rebuild your R. Of course it's your ultimate aim but it's not going to happen first. Your very first step is to put the seed of doubt in WAS's mind. They have been unhappy and they consider D to be the answer. It's your job to show them that maybe there is an alternative. And I stress show. There is little you can do to talk them out of this beyond sympathising with their unhappiness and saying that IF D will make them happy then you won't stand in their way. If they are receptive to that, you could go further and say something like "we have had many good times together. Please think about this and make sure it really will make you happy. It's a lot to throw away".

4. Once you have said this back off and let them consider it. They need time. Your next step is GAL - no begging, crying or anger AT ALL. Your task is now part 2 of sowing the seeds of doubt about D - SHOWING WAS that things can be different. Now is the time to step back, put aside your ego and all thoughts of how unfair it all is (that just leads to bitterness, which is poison to a M) and REALLY look at yourself and decide if you are worthy of being WAS's spouse. I agree a M breakdown is rarely one sided but at this juncture it's more useful to look at your contribution. Look at yourself. Under a microscope. Decide if you've changed - are you happy with yourself, for you? Make changes. Now is the time for 180's. This stage also takes a long time too.

5. Time, time, time - it really IS on your side. The situation will not resolve as quickly as you hope. Don't compare your situation in terms of time with others'. It's very tempting to say "well, their situation is similar to mine and it took them 6 months so it will take me 6 months". Each situation is unique and needs its own timeframe.

6. Set your goals and decide on your first signs. This part took me a couple of months to really "get". I had to REALLY read chapter 6 of DR from "I'm discouraged" then go and review my goals before I saw any results.

7. Develop a duck's back - water slides off it. Patience + lack of panic = success.

8. Set goals for yourself as well as the R. Decide on what you want to achieve for you alone and reward your success. I know this sounds like step 4 again but it's more a case of making the changes rather than lamenting how awful you are. (I felt awful about myself for some time - bad and guilty. I did me no favours whatsoever, ended up with me feeling resentment. Much better to look forward than back - as Michelle says, look for solutions and take action)

9. Keep in mind that your actions could be frightening to WAS - you are not reacting in the way they wanted. They had this D all mapped out in their head and it's not panning out the way they thought. This has the added benefit that it leads them to think "if this isn't going the way I planned then maybe it isn't right", but it will take them a LONG TIME to come to this conclusion, to let go of their D comfort blanket. You can help them by being consistent with the positive changes. If you revert back to the you they find unacceptable then they feel perfectly justified in continuing with the D.

10. This is going to be tough on you. In the ideal world, couples in crisis would sit down together and negotiate together and accept that change was possible. In reality, you are very unlikely to resolve your problem in this way, almost certianly not in the early stages. You are not giong to have the luxury of a spouse who will listen to you and accept what you say.
You are going to be in extreme pain. You have to find something to soothe this. To have your WAS would work like a shot, but you ain't going to get this in a hurry. Do whatever it takes to comfort yourself - write a diary, see friends, go places, take the kids out if you have them, take exercise - anything. Your aim is to find something which makes you say "well, the rest of my life may be turning to sh*t but at least this part of it's OK". It acts as a time out for you and relieves the stress.

OK - as I said this is what worked for me - if you're reading this then maybe it's different for you. If you're readin this and thinknig your own sitch is impossible think of this - would you give yourself false hope right now? Chances are you wouldn't. So why give yourself false despair? There are layers in a M crisis and you don't get the benefit of seeing them all at once.

[NotAgainPlease]

Thank you again for putting so much effort into your replies. It is much appreciated. I have been trying to look busy when my H comes to see the kids. We live on 3 acres and have 4 horses so there is always something I can do. When we have phone contact I really try to make sure I am the first to say goodbye. I can see (hear) that it is noticed. Sometimes there is silence and some times he keeps talking. I let him talk if he wants then try to stop the call if I can. I am trying to be very careful about the conversation to be about the kids or house issues.
My kids try to get me to go with them to what ever event they are doing with my H, like movies or whatever. I used to go because he said it was fine. I know say no thank you I have plans.
My H recently told me that if he met me again he would not date me. I am not what he wants in a person. I guess it took him 12 years to figure this out. H said he has been unhappy for the last 6 years. I guess since the kids were born. He can't stand the mess in the house with clutter and stuff for the kids. That is why he left he said. I just can't keep the house decluttered and it has sent him over the edge. Our counselor tried to get more out of that but he said that was it, he didn't love me any more and we have nothing in common. ????
I know in my heart we can reslove our issues but he doesn't see it. I just have to hang in there and keep workint the system.

Thanks again,
S

[Nomopo]

My H recently told me that if he met me again he would not date me. I am not what he wants in a person. I guess it took him 12 years to figure this out.

Please do not "believe anything they say." You know this rule, right? Look, it might be true. But it might not. The point is, there is some stuff going on with your WAS and you simply cannot accept what he says as gospel truth. You also can't assume it is false. Just don't worry about it. Let it slide off your back. In one ear, out the other. (I KNOW its hurts. I have heard VERY HURTFUL things. Just let it go, and ignore it the best you can. It is not worth the energy/effort.)

H said he has been unhappy for the last 6 years. I guess since the kids were born.

Again, you CANNOT put stock in what they say. My W started therapy saying she was unhappy for two years, in later sessions it became three, then four, then six then eight!!! We'd been married nine, for crying out loud. It is revisionist history. They are trying to justify to themselves what they are feeling and what they are doing.

He can't stand the mess in the house with clutter and stuff for the kids. That is why he left he said. I just can't keep the house decluttered and it has sent him over the edge.

I don't really know what to make of that. It blows my mind. I guess I am going to be a little un-PC here or insensitive to him, but . . . why the hell doesn't he de-clutter it then? Or get a maid? Or a personal assistant? I work a full-time job as a partner in a national law firm and I'm the one in my house who keeps it de-cluttered, so I don't care how hard his job is. But the point I am trying to make to you is even if this is something you need to work on and be better at (maybe it is), this is also something he has an "issue" with and I hope you do not just blame yourself and beat yourself up on this. Maybe you could have done something better, maybe there is a lesson for you to learn, but this is the silliest reason to get a D that I have ever heard. I'm sorry.

Our counselor tried to get more out of that but he said that was it, he didn't love me any more and we have nothing in common. ????

I assume the "he" is your H, right? Again, believe nothing you hear and only half of what you see.

I know in my heart we can reslove our issues but he doesn't see it.

And he probably won't for a long time, if ever. But he might.

I just have to hang in there and keep working the system.

Yep.

Nomopo

[NotAgainPlease]

I agree with the length of time my H was unhappy. I laughed when you said your W made it longer and longer. My H too.

I do know the saying about only believing nothing of what you hear. I have been trying to do that.



As far as my H cleaning or decluttering I AGREE!!! So did the C. He said it was my stuff and he didn't need to and he tried to get me to do it for years.... We used to have a housekeeper but wne I had my kids I let her go (dumb me) because I felt guilty becasue I was staying home. I should have kept her, twins aren't that easy :). My husband works away from the house and I work from home. Big mistake because he feels I should be able to take care of the kids, house, animals and be a Realtor...I wish I was really Super Woman. This has been one of the on going fights.

S

[NotAgainPlease]

I don't want to make it sound that my H was all to blame for our problems. I have not been happy all the time either. We chose to bring our children into this world and believe they deserve to be happy and in a complete family. We should try whatever it takes to make our marraige happy. H doesn't think you should have to work hard at it. He should just have sparks all the time when he is with me. I am not always the easiest person to live with either. I can nag!
We used to do a lot more things together before kids. Since we have had them we rarely do things alone. I am sure that is true with most. We should have made a better effort to do this and maybe we wouldn't be in this sitch?? But we are and just have to proceed.

[Nomopo]

I don't want to make it sound that my H was all to blame for our problems.

Nor do I. That would be a huge mistake. I still want to shake your Husband and say "what are you thinking?" Anyway, I think I am pretty well past the blame game, and that is important. If you haven't read it (or don't remember it), see: Michele's article

[NotAgainPlease]

Yes, I have. That is me & my H. He feels it's all my problem and I won't change. He has no faith in that he says he has tried to get me to do it for years...I have to admit I probably am the woman who hits her H with whatever is bugging her that day as soon as he walks in the door. All I can do is do what Michele says and change myself and hopefully he will see and follow. I just need to stick to my plan and hope he see it if not I'll be better for H #3 :). I wish I would have learned it after H1.. Oh well I know now.

[Nomopo]

You sound like you are well on your way, and your right about what you can do. We all wish we had known earlier.

[NotAgainPlease]

I agree...I do have a question to put out ther about sex. My H who wants nothing to do with me and says never will again still about twice a month wants sex. H says is just sex and doesn't want me to think it means anything. There is no kissing involved unless he has been drinking and then he is like his old loving self. Not sue about this and when I say something about it he gets mad and says it will never happen again. Any thoughts?

[Nomopo]

I don't know about this. My wife ended our intimacy when she felt emotionally unconnected, and it just made us even less connected, but the sitch is different. Have you seen this: From Michele?

Nomopo

[Soxfan2008]

I know many couples whose physical relationship saved the day. Even when they couldn't talk, constantly fought, their lovemaking was the lifeline between them. Eventually, because their physical connection reminded them that beneath their problems, there was still a lot of love, they were able to work things out. I say, "stack the deck in your favor, if you can."

And just because you say no now, doesn't mean you can't say yes later-- or vice versa.

When my H first moved out, he approached me about still having sex- as in "a friend told me it could be great- would you be interested" ya real nice turn on there. I said no. That I had no comfort with him, no trust and felt no connection (He had even walked on me getting out of the shower and I had instinctively covered with a towel.) He later emailed me that the towel should have been a clue to him and he shouldn't have asked.

That was in July- 2 years ago. Christmas that year was the first itme since he moved out that we had sex. I left his house and cried my way home. It was that connection that I longed for that I knew I couldn't have- god did it hurt. 2 years later though and we're together most of the time now. Just a logistic thing with 2 houses still.

Go with your gut- but allow yourself room to change your mind. My H respected the fact that I told him I didn't feel close enough to him to have sex. I think it showed him I wouldn't run out and have sex with the next guy I saw. It also showed him how much I was hurting.

[Nomopo]

Great post soxfan. Being on the other side, kind of (my W is the WAS and also the one who ended intimacy), that was useful to hear. She has said she doesn't believe in casual or meaningless sex. And she has also told me her EA was never a PA, and I think I believe that (and suppose I want to believe that, though the EA is bad enough on its own). I don't know if I respect my W for telling me she doesn't feel close enough to be intimate, but it does reinforce for me my gut feeling/belief that she hasn't been intimate with anyone else.

[Soxfan2008]

My H moved out-- but we both are kinda the WAS. So i guess I get to see both sides. I can so relate to the WAW.

[NotAgainPlease]

Soxfan & Nomopo,

I want to thank you both so much for your input. I am so glad I found this place. You both have given me great stuff to think about.
S

[Nomopo]

Very happy to help S. If you haven't started yet, begin reading other threads. You will get lots of other great advice that way. And offer advice too, as repeating these lessons to others helps it sink in. It is also tons easier to think clearly (and to apply DB principles) on someone else's sitch than your own.

Onward and upward,
Nomopo

[NotAgainPlease]

I have been reading posts on MLC. I think my H is a textbook case. All though he is only 32 I am 44 (I know very modern) we have been together 12 years married 8. We have twin 7 yr olds. My husband was raised by his grandparents from age 6-12. His father left his mother at 5 and his mother was a partier. So the grandparents stepped in a took over. He has 2 older siblings that are 8 & 10 years older. He has always been a mature soul in a young body. Until now!
His grandfather died 6 years ago (the time he is saying he our marriage went bad and stopped loving me)and grandmother is in a home. Which he doesn't visit or acknowledge even being alive. He and his family have always been big deniers. The talk about everything & everyone except themselves. Ever since my H left and before, really, I have been concerned about him because he was so close to his GF he was God in his eyes. I don't think he really grieved for him. There was a few days there where he cried and then never really talked about him again. I have mentioned this and he says I am wrong there is no need to think about it?? My H left right after New Years. My nephew gave him a tackle box for Christmas. It was Grandpas. Matt showed some emotion that day. After the family left he went with his friend to get a drink at the bar. He said he would be an hour. 5 hours (drunk) later he came home. The next morning he said he was sorry and doesn't know why I put up with him. Drinking is a problem and a big one in his family. I said I loved him and he is a great Dad and husband. Things progressively became worse from there.
He has told me all the classic lines like ILYBILWY, haven loved me in years, wanted to leave for the last 6 years, never would date someone like me, etc. He had an EA 4 years ago and one recently since separation. Both very different than me. My H is a very simple person. No real possessions except his Bass boat which is his obsession. Grandpa would take H fishing all the time. He didn't grow up with much. I don't want this to sound bad but I did. My father is a very gifty person and is always giving or pushing things on us. I think at first H was uncomfortable with this. This maybe why he says he hates the clutter in the house???
Anyway I guess I am asking if this is a MLC and I should be doing something different with this or just keep on trucking along. I do want to say one thing. I have written him letters and he has always read them and thrown them away. H does Bass fishing Tournaments. I gave him a letter that I put in the camper for him to find. (this is during the time of the so called GF 1 mo ago.)I simply said that I am proud of him as a dad. I was proud of his fishing and new he was going to be the best fisherman he could be someday. Something like that. H kept that letter and it is on his night stand at his house. I don't really think that he got much praise as a child. H will not admit any bad in growing up, period, denial again. I don't know if I have given it either but I am doing it know and I think it is noticed. I don't want to over do it.
Thanks for everyone's help.
S

Can I post this in 2 places?

[Nomopo]

Sure you can. You might want to copy your sitch and that post at MLC. I don't know much about those.

[NotAgainPlease]

Well as far as my H is concerned we are divorced. We finalized our agreement and tells people I am his EX-W. H has been seeing the OW again. He told me today to just quit we are NEVER going to get back together and H will never love me again. I know do believe him. It's a little hard not to. H wants to be friends but that's. I really am very sad because I have lost my friend.
No more sex either. I could tell in his voice before he told me that H was back with OW. I was mean & short with me.
I think its time to give up and move on. I love him terribly but "you can't make a heart love somebody" George Strait.
I am not good at this whole thing and I have been pushing him form away for 5 months. I wish I would have been stronger. All I can do now is go dark? I really have no hope though. Not a good attitude to have. How many people does this DGing really work to get back your spouse?

[Nomopo]

Sorry to hear that. If you don't want to give up, don't. But it does sound like a LRT (what you call going dark) is what toi do if you still want to try. I'd review that in DR if I were you, and there is a forum on it here with info and resources. I wouldn't put any stock in what he says. He may be telling the truth, but there is plenty of evidence of WAS's saying things that later turn out to be untrue. Even severe thigs like you described.

I now do believe him. It's a little hard not to.

It may be hard, but just don't think about it. You cannot control him or what he says. What sre you going to do now. The LRT would be (1) back off, stay away (eg, going dark sort of but I might be open if he does come around or call) and (2) Getting a Life. That will be best for you regardless of whether it saves your M and it will give you the best (only?) shot at saving your M. So why not. Focus on the part about how it is for you and helping you, and just be open to a reconciliation if he ever comes back.

I think its time to give up and move on.

That is your right.

I love him terribly but "you can't make a heart love somebody" George Strait.

That's true. You can't. Doesn't mean you can't be the person you want to be, and that he won't change his mind. He might and he might not. Focus on you.

I am not good at this whole thing and I have been pushing him form away for 5 months. I wish I would have been stronger.

You are right where all the rest of us are. Don't beat yourself up. And if you don't quit, then pick yourself up and keep moving forward Dbing.

I really have no hope though. Not a good attitude to have.

You can't fail if you don't give up. As long as you're trying you haven't failed, right? Agreed, you need a PMA (but what you feel is normal).

How many people does this DGing really work to get back your spouse?

I have no idea. Go read some of the success stories. Maybe they will give you a reason to try.

I am so sorry.

Hugs,
Nomopo

[NotAgainPlease]

Nomopo,

Thank you for your support. I guess since I have been through this before I am discouraged. I didn't know about DBing then. I know I need to keep going especially for my beautiful kids. It's just so hard when he is so hateful to me. I am working on GAL.
We just got in an argument because he says the kids are learning to be like pigs because I am.. Nice. I told him he could help. H didn't want to talk about it and I said since I had full custody and H left I guess it is my way.

I think I am just in a really bad mood now- PMS :(. Lovely Northern CA 100* last two days doesn't help. Along with our "non divorce" D being final.
I also feel its going to be tough to do LRT with the kids but I am going to try. Maybe it's so hard for me because that's what he wants. I will never know unless I try. Tomorrows a new day and I'm going there or bust!
Thanks again,
S

[Soxfan2008]

LRT with kids isn't all that hard or different than without.

When H comes to pick up the kids be in another room, or be doing laundry or dishes-- if he talks just say short sweet responses- even yes or no and nothing else. If you drop them off, let them walk to the door themselves, when they are with you, then you do things without H and you don't call to invite him along, if H asks you to do things, say you have plans then go out and do something. Don't elaborate on your plans, just have something to do.

When H had the kids and he called me, I didn't answer. I let it go to voicemail. If my child called (they have their own phones) I answered.

Of course it's what he wants- or thinks it is. MY H the same. He moved out, I took his name off all the utilites and I had him taken off my car insurance- and I had the company call him to tell him! I gave him the choice of paying me every month to stay on my health plan or me taking him off, I called my retirement and got info, I found out how to change my name back to my maiden name, I found out how to have him waive his rights to part of my retirement... He started talking about the divorce and I made sure to tell him to add part of what I found out.... He wanted it, so he was going to get it- 100%. NO waivering... no let's do lunch tomorrow. Heck no. You want a divorce buddy, you're gonna get it and know how it feels to be without me. Plus you're gonna get to watch me go out and have fun on my own when you have the kids!! I packed up all his stuff and when he came to get the kids he had a box to take too. Then I bought new furniture and rearranged the house!

He asks you to a movie, say nope- already saw it it- you'll like it. Dinner? already ate.

[NotAgainPlease]

Sox,

Thank you so much for the support. I'm starting today! H will be picking up the kids for Father's day weekend. I knw if is me that has been holding back on this for fear. You'd think iI'd learn but I don't. It's time to do it because it may be too late but if I continue the pathe I have been on it will be over forever. Unfotunetly the kids are 7 (twins) they don't have their own phone yet. But I can have them LM and call back.
How is your sitch working out? Are any of your techniques.
working?
I have read Micheles book at least 5 times its time to impliment the information!!

S

[Nomopo]

You can do a LRT the Dark way or you can do a LRT without going Dark. And you can do it with lots of shades of Gray in between. Just be aware there are different approaches. You will find stories where going Dark doesn't work and may backfire. And, of course, there are stories where it is exactly what the doctor ordered. I just want to make sure you are thinking about what will likely be most effective for you.

And, yes, "its time to impliment the information!!" Do you keep a solutions journal? For example, you should really record all the details about your argument today and study it. Your H was being an @ss, but when you said "since I had full custody and H left I guess it is my way," did that bring yu closer to your goal or father away. Did it create a positive memory/moment for H or a negative? I don't know the answers, but study it! Learn from it! I would suggest that maybe your emotions took over, and you lost sight of your plan, your goals of changing your behavior so that your H feels closer to you. And by the way, "your being right" and "his being wrong" has got nothing to do with it. We're interested in results; not blame.

Make sense?

Nomopo

[NotAgainPlease]

Nomopo,

You Im are so right. I made a bad choice and it will not bring me closer to my goal. I am starting a journal and writing thing down.

Here is my latest issue. I'm really not sure what to do. I really think my H wants to be friends and talk at times, even though he is starting it up again with OW. He wants to talk about the kids and non meaningfull stuff. I feel my brain is mush. As many times I've read DR you'd think I'd know but NO! I don't know if I should try and be friends and risk me blowing up or just stop talking to him all together. H really tries hard to be friendly with me even when we have a blow out. H keeps telling me he wants us to get along. The devil on my shoulder says screw you I don't want to be your friend if I can't be your wife. But I really haven't given that chance. H says we can talk about anything but OR or OW. Which is what I'm supposed top do.
Maybe I should do a little of both friendly and talk but not always be available to talk. That's hard when he hasn't wanted to really talk and now he does I don't want to stop. I have been pretty successful about ending the conversation first.
Any help would be appreciated.

Thank you

[Nomopo]

Hi NAP! Good post. Good food for thought. Glad to see you are analyzing. It's the SSS! Let me offer some thoughts, if you don't mind.

I am starting a journal and writing thing down.

I think this is excellent. It has really helped me. I told someone else today that I do two things. I journal in excrutiating detail almost all of my contact with W. (Check out my threads and look for my posts where I say journaling to get a sense for one way to do it.) This allows me to collect the data of our interactions while it is fresh in my head. I can then analyze it (at that time or much later) to see what works with my W to bring us closer, to create good feelings/positive experiences and what doesn't. I also built a Solutions Journal based on pp. 102-03 of DR. This is where I record difficult or other noteworthy exchanges with W, and note what worked and what didn't.

I really think my H wants to be friends and talk at times, even though he is starting it up again with OW. He wants to talk about the kids and non meaningfull stuff.

Forget the part about OW. You can't do anything about that. I know if conjures up emotions, but get past those because emotions are going to help you bust this divorce. Now, ignoring that last clause, do you realize how GREAT this is? Your H, a WAS, wants to be friends and talk at times!!! And he wans to talk about your kids and meaningless stuff! BTW, it isn't really meaningless. Talk about the garden, the news, a TV show, whatever, and you and your H are connecting - building postive experiences! That's what this is all about. Re-read Michele's article about Time Together. YOUR H IS ASKING YOU FOR TIME TOGETHER!!! This is very positive, don't you think?

I feel my brain is mush.

Clear your head, re-charge your batteries, and seize this opportunity. It can't be that hard to have light, fun, non-R talks with him, can it?

I don't know if I should try and be friends and risk me blowing up or just stop talking to him all together.

I think the answer is clear, but you just need to manage your emotions. Prepare yourself to do that. You know that while he decides, you aren't going to get your needs met. Accept that. Put them on the back burner. And you know this is going to take a long time (patience) and that he needs space so you won't have any R talks. Given all that, yes you can be his friend and connect emotionally by talking about light stuff. Focus on the problem free times you had togther before - wasn't it like this?

H really tries hard to be friendly with me even when we have a blow out. H keeps telling me he wants us to get along.

More positives! Smell the roses girl!

The devil on my shoulder says screw you I don't want to be your friend if I can't be your wife.

Do you know what this is? This is your emotions taking on a life of themselves. You are hurt, angry, bitter (at some level). We all are. And now those emotions are interfering with your implementation of strategies to save your M. You have a chance to try to be friendly with him. Try it, see if it works for a few weeks. Monitor results. Think about what "first signs" you'll be looking for. The SCARY thing is, you need to seize this opportunity now because we could all face a time where our WAS doesn't want to be friends, and then the window will be shut. Just ask some of the other posters on here.

One other thing, and don't let your angry, hurt, sad, bitter emotions answer this question. Imagine yourself down the road, a few years after a divorce from H. It's over. What kind of relationship would you like to have with the father of your kids? A hostile, non-friendly one, where you still resent him for the mistakes he made? Or would you rather (1) have forgiven him for his mistakes so you can be happy, (2) have him be happy and (3) be friends with him so you can both be the best parents to your kids. Who wants to waste time and energy not being friends with someone? Who wants to waste life on that? We all have to get control of our emotions! It is very hard, but one of the (if not the) most important things for us to do.

But I really haven't given that chance.

Good for you. Being honest with yourself. So, you don't know if this button will work. Push it for a while and see. You can always change strategies later if it doesn't work.

H says we can talk about anything but OR or OW.

Fine. What do you want to discuss about it anyway? You know all you need to know on that. You can't control him or her on this issue, so let it go? If and when there is something about OR or OW he wants to tell you or discuss, he'll bring it up. (At that point, just listen. Really.)

Maybe I should do a little of both friendly and talk but not always be available to talk. That's hard when he hasn't wanted to really talk and now he does I don't want to stop. I have been pretty successful about ending the conversation first.

Good that you let conversations end (eg, don't work to lengthen or prolong them). But, beyond that, how would you not be available to talk? Tell him something like, "oh, can we wait until this show is over" or "can I finish this article/chapter first"? Just wondering how you would do that without it making it look like you were distancing.

Hope it helps,
Nomopo

[NotAgainPlease]

Nomo,

You always have such encouraging posts for me. Thank you so much. I will be implementing the great info you give.
I was just confused about his being friends. If I wasn't so stubborn and listened to his clues I would be a lot farther??
H was moving and I said I felt bad the I was in a nice house and he was living in a trailer. I said he could stay in a room here but I know you'd rather die first. H said I'm not ready to do that yet. H has said that on several occasions in the past 5 mos. I just usually don't think much about it since he says he will NEVER come back later.. So I try not to think of either of them.
I am just going to be his friend if it kills me and be mysterious as well. Not always available or stay on the phone too long. The one thing I have to stop doing is doing for him. I am always volunteering to do things for him but most are rejected. Some aren't but I think I need to stop that but still be friendly.
H came over this AM for a few minutes and picked up a trailer and even unloaded the hay for me. Looking back on the last 5 months H really has tried to be nice. I have been so hurt and angry I have been a real B**ch. It has felt better to be like that then be nice. I was confused by H being nice, in my head what does it mean, what is H thinking, I need to stop and go with the flow. Most of the time I am my worst enemy. No more! I am going down a new path and what ever happens happens. But I know will do my best this time.
When I heard he was back with the OW I really wasn't jealous of her I was more upset about losing H friendship. I know if nothing else comes out of this I don't want to lose that for myself and especially my kids.
Thanks again and Happy Fathers Day!
S

[NotAgainPlease]

.

[NotAgainPlease]

I have been reading a lot of the success posts and article by Michele. The most recent While Your Spouse Decides. I drives me crazy that she doesn't give you the outcome of the sitch. Does it mean it wasn't good? Curious.

[Nomopo]

If we're talking about the guy who decided to be his wife's best friend, no matter what, I'm pretty sure it worked out for him. Wasn't that clear?

[NotAgainPlease]

Yes, that is the one. It really isn't that clear. It doesn't say we are together. I hope they are!

[NotAgainPlease]

It's Fathers Day. I struggled to call or not. I wanted to talk to the kids to say good morning. H didn't answer which I was glad. I LM that I wanted to talk to the kids. I was supprised when H called back instead of the kids. I said HFD and we chatted a bit, then he handed the phone over. I feel this is progress. H really is much more receptive to talk &/or initiate a call when the seas are calm. I have not meantioned the OW which has been a problem for me. I'm sure he noticed that. Usually the conversations are generic or about him. H never asks about me. I think because H doesn't want me to ask him?? Whatever it is I have to keep on the path. It is still hard for me to not think, feel, whatever when H is so nice.
H and kids were going out to breakfast for FD. I wished so bad that H would have invited me so I could say how nice that was but I'm sorry I have plans..didn't happen but that's okay. I'm just happy with what's going on now. Babysteps!
S

[Nomopo]

Good journaling and good noticing the positive baby steps.

[NotAgainPlease]

Yesterday H droped off the kids and said "whats going on"? Tha was big it's usually "hey". H also brushed a piece of hair off my face. I know that doesn't seem like anything, but I could have had mud all over my face and H wouldn't have noticed or cared. Talked a little then H left. It has really been nice I m trying to keep it this way and see what happens. Baby Steps is my motto from now on!
S

[Nomopo]

Great! What, if anything, have you bring differently they may have led to these changes?

[NotAgainPlease]

Duct Tape!! Just being nice. I get so caught up in being angry that I just get in a rut of being a b**ch. I know he responds very well to kindness. I just would rather fight I guess. I was hurt and wnated him too. You know the drill..H HATES conflict. I guess I was doing that to hurt like he hurt me?? I'm past that now and just want to be nice even though there is the OW. I WILL be kind and H friend if it kills me. H said that one of the reasons he left he wanted a W that was his best friend. Maybe I can be the EW that is his BF and then??

If nothing else get along for the kids.

[NotAgainPlease]

Another thing I noticed today. H works with my neighbor and for a while now has been hiding his truck behind the shop. Because it got ugly with us. He used to park it up front before all that. I noticed today he parked it up front?? Softening?? Feeling more comfortable?? I don't know. I can't read too much into it. I'm just happy to get along right now. I need to make sure I take it slow and not to push, patience is not my friend :).
S

[Nomopo]

Excellent stuff NAP!!! Now your solutions oriented! Patience will be your friend. It will serve you well.


Nomopo

[NotAgainPlease]

Nomo,
I know. I don't know why it is so hard for me. I have always been the "I want it yesterday" girl. I'd rather walk on coals! If I want a chance I have to do it. I am determined too.
Thank you

[NotAgainPlease]

OMG, why does my H think that I care that H OW was at the bar picking up on some guy, while H had the kids. H wanted me to ask a friend of ours about it. I said no! OW is H problem not mine. I said H wouldn't believe me anyway. He believed her when I said she was telling everyone what he was saying about me. Said I was making it up even though what I said was what H had told her. Whatever. NOT MY PROBLEM!!!

[Nomopo]

Wow, well here is a true test for you. Get emotions back in check, focus on your plan, put it behind you because you can't control it. Back to work, but that was a doozy. He may be pushing your buttons intentionally to check your new "niceness" to see if it will last. WASs think (1) they know the LBS and (2) the LBS will never change. Prove him wrong on both, over time, by your actions and that will be something!

[NotAgainPlease]

I was so GOOD. I said I was sorry I know he has feeling s for her and if she is what makes you happy that is what I want, ha ha! This isn't here first time. I shouldn't have told him that though. She want up to Oregon to her grandparents and pick up some guy there. She told my girlfriend. I hate living in a small town :}. Anyway I said I didn't want to hurt him I was his friend and thought he should know. H called me back since the last post so I told him. H tries to play it off that they just spend time toghther and not his girlfriend now. Before it was and he told her HE loved her. Not know since they split up and are now whatever!
Not sure what he thinks about me now!! I just tried to be his friend with no emotion. It was kind of fun. H had tone of desperation in his voice and wanted to know what I new. Didn't give him any details said I didn't want to get involved and if he wanted to be with her he would have to figure it out for himself...

[Nomopo]

Yay you!

[Nomopo]

What's up?

[NotAgainPlease]

Oh, lots of drama. The Sh*t hit the fan with H & OW. He found out that she was cheating on him. I had told him that before but he thought that I was just saying it because I was jealous. H came over two days ago and just sat in a the chair and looked all sad. I said what is the matter , H said you won't care. I said yes I do tell me. Then H told me what happened and apologized for what he had done to me. Why, why I felt bad for him I don't know..Anyway, as he does all the time, like I'm going to forget. H tells me you want to work things out I don't I'm done never again. I don't know why H has to tell me that all the time?? I am really torn as to what I should do know. He thinks I am seeing some one and is happy for me. It's what he wants so I'll leave him alone. I don't know if I should back off and let him be alone for a while. Very little contact. Or be a friend and be there for him. H is so hard to read. One minute its just talk aout the kids then we chit cha about stuff and he says its too much. Now that he is alone I feel like letting him be that way and find out how lonly it can be. H has never been alone. This is really hard.
S

[NotAgainPlease]

We spent the day unexpectidly together with the kids at the pool. H came with us. H gave be a big hug and said he was so sorry for everythhing he has done and how bad he feels for hurting me.We had a really nice time. He is coming over for dinner tonite. Well see how it goes. Not trying to read too much into it. Just being nice and CALM. Calm and patience are not somthing that comes easy to me. I determined to try though. H feeling bad is something I have wanted for so long and now that it's happening I feel strange and don't know what to do with it. I know I just have to be careful of what I do and say and take it slow. I'd better get a new roll of duct tape. Wish me luck cuz I'm gonna need it.

[chicki]

I have not read all your thread. Is this the first time he has shown any remorse? If so do you think it's b/c Ow cheated on him? R they officially over?

[NotAgainPlease]

Yes, it was the first time he has shown remorse. It is I'm am sure it is becasue OW cheated on him. H said he knows how I feel now. Yes, the are officially over. H not saying anything about us but I'm not going there. Just going to see where this goes. I know that was a big step today for him to hug me and say that. H told me the other day when H found OW cheated that he was sorry he has been so bad to me also. H also told me that he really didn't love OW I don't think he thinks that he was just using her to pass the time but its sound like it to me. We kind of touched on it when he said it was no big deal that they broke up and I said I thought you loved her. H said no I don't think I really loved OW. But got carried away and it was fun?? (Fun- my opinion).
We have had sex on and off the whole time he has been gone. I aslo asked why he was doing it with both OW & me and he said he was confused abou us???
At this point I am not saying anything about our future since he, even this am when I talked to him, he says we will never be together again. Then the hug when we were together today??
S

[chicki]

Be grateful! I wish my H OW would do something mean or screw up or something. when (one of the few times) my H has ahd a break down, heart ot heart w/ me he said there were plenty of times he wantedd to come back but knew I would not take him back. I said only when your 100% ready and completely rid of her an d no more sneaking around or else that will be your last. BUt then afer that when I ahve said I don't understand this hold she has on you why can't you jsut get up and go? He said she ahd not giving him a reason to b/c she has only been kind to him.
In this past month I have put my foot down and have refused any sexual advances. It's true what the gusy say here that if you keep giving him sex then why on earth should he leave the OW when he can get it from two women? The last time (fri) he made a scene he really thought I would go for it. He has been really pushing me to have sex more and more?? I don't undertand it when he is still living w/OW?

[NotAgainPlease]

I feel for ya! My H would really feel guilty after and the last time a month ago he said that was it no more. H broke it off with the OW for about 2 weeks because there was too much drama with me and the kids. Not becasue anything she did wrong so about 2 weeks ago they decide to try again. Then finally H caught her. Now it was his doing. I am gratefull H feels bad. H just called and said he was going over to OW house to pick up some things he left over there. She was going to be home in 1/2 hour. OW said why don't you wait at W house. OW is way jealous!! YEAH!!! I said that was fine get your stuff and then you can come over for dinner. H is really mad not becasue she cheated but because she lied to him. Whatever the case I am very pleased! Hope it all works out. I'm not getting my hopes up but it's a start and A LOT more encouraging than the past 6 mos have been. Jsut hope it keeps going.
I hear ya on the sex deal. No I have not said, done or suggested any sex in at least a month. Boy does he want it now....I sure hope I have will power. Better yet he doesn't try. That would be easier.
Good luck to you!
S

[imLIN]

Chicki...it is a matter of wanting what he can't have...the cookie in the cookie jar and you are letting him have "his cookies"....maybe he will begin to yearn for you and blow it with OW...

NAP...my H kept telling me that he could/would never be able to live with me again, said we will never be together again...he said that upto about 1 month before we got back together!!!...that was over a year and a half ago...and we are doing soo much better...but like you I had to keep my mouth shut and be patient...and like you I wasn't very good at that...I have since learned and am getting better...he knows I am continuing to work on me...for me...but for the benefit of all around me...including him...and he is making some changes too...

So hold on, my Cali neighbor...who knows what will come of all this...but at least you will know you are doing the right thing...

Take care...Lin

[NotAgainPlease]

Lin,

Thanks so much for the kind words! Sometimes when my H and I talk he will say I'm not ready to come home yet..I laugh to my self and think well which is it yet or never :}. I think ke was a little shocked that I said have fun getting your stuff and I'll see you in a little while. H E doesn't mention my changes but I know he sees them. Yes, I have my new roll of duct tape and I look really good in gray!
I agree. I think if you don't keep giving it to them they may miss it. I do however think that it was a good idea in the beginning to do it to keep him connected. Espec. since it was not very prominate in our relationship before. Now he is like wow what is this. So I think not doing anything for a month was a goodthing. The other weird thing is that he would never kiss me before ( while seperated). Said he didn't have that feeling anymore that is why he left. Wow did he kiss me today. Maybe there is hope?? I think h e thinks he's getting more of it tonite when he comes over for dinner. If he ever gets here! I want to call so bad butI WILL NOT. HE has a special ring on his phone when I call and I know she will hear it but not doing it!!.
Take care,
S

Nice to have a Cali neighbor. Poor South Lake Tahoe is burning up. 50 homes already. So sad. I'm in Sac area and it is already getting smokey.

[imLIN]

I rarely watch TV or read the news paper...too depressing for me...I had no idea about Lake Tahoe...I know some people there...I do hope they are okay...we had our bout of fire storms a few years back...just about burned San Diego down!!! and the smoke closed our schools for a week...it was dark outside and you could barely breath...and this would be in day light...we had to keep windows closed and it was soooo hot...and we didn't have A/C!!!

I hope things continue well for you...my He doddled a bit when he started coming back...both from guilt feelings and just being plain scared...of course he also came back with some issues like drinking that I had to put my foot down about and at first I was scared to do so....my bossy attitude had been one thing that he resented (unknown to me)....but in the end he realized that I wasn't going to tolerate the abuse of drinking to our family and sought out help in quitting...so far so good on that...
H wouldn't kiss me either while we were separated...and like yours I feel his OW dumped him...but it was a still a long while before he returned (which I am glad for) and a long time before he was able to clearly see it wasn't really love...now he says she is "nothing" to him and doesn't even like remembering that time (which I am glad for too)...

So don't get discouraged if he doddles a bit...just hold your course...

Take care....Lin

[NotAgainPlease]

Hi Lin,

I know fires are so scarey. I guess 250 homes have been distroyed now and it is only 5% contained. So sad.

Well H came over after talking with OW. I guess she tried to blame him for lying to her too. Whatever. H had a lot of guilt last night. For me and D/S both 7. He didn't want them confused about him being here. I said that I have told them numerous times that just cuz daddy comes over doesn't mean he's coming back. hey now that and for now I need them to think that so they don't suffer anymore. My sitch sounds SO much like yours. He is very confused and has a lot of guilt. Good! I am just being very supportive and talking to him about it. I think/know he is a little freaked out that I am talking to him about her. I guess I am too, I really have no emotion about it. I guess so much torture I have gotten rid of it. I did cry about something last night, can't remember what and he said please don't cry you have cried enough inthe past 6 mos. I don't want you to anymore for what I've done to you. H feels a little bad about OW and what happened but talking and looking at him I can see and hear he is really confused about any emotion he has and doesn't quit know what it is and why...probably normal???
I was weak and had no self control last night and well just say good thing I'm not Paris! We'd bee all over the net! We had a great time and when he went home at 1am I text hime and said thank you for the nice time. He said back NO thank you it was great. Our sex life has been pretty boring and so if I can real him back that way, well then???
The communication lines are now open and Ijust have to keep going forward and be PATIENT and SLOW..OMG I need all the help I can get.
Thank you again for all your words they really encourage me.
Take care,
Sally

PS I it all I can do not to call or text him today. I have picked up the phone 5 times. I won't though cuz he expects it so I have to do the unexpected to keep him on the hook.

[Nomopo]

Great stuff! Don't call or text him!

[NotAgainPlease]

Thanks NOMO! I think I'm going to have to use the duct tape on my hands or throw my phone in the pool!
Tomorrow he is going out of town for work for 2 days. H has to come by to pick up some of his laundry HE, yes he does his own!, that wasn't finished drying last night. I just have to play it cool. I have been writing down everything I want to say so I won't call him. Then if I need or have the opportunity to talk about it I will have it all. I have the worst memory :}.
Hope all is going well with you Nomo!
S

[Nomopo]

Don't force a talk. Frankly, I think anything you are writing down or want to say could wait until after his trip. If he wants to talk, listen and validate. Don't you think?

[NotAgainPlease]

oh yes, I wasn't planning on talking about it with him unless he initiates it. I was just writing it down so I wouldn't call him, like I usually do. It's for future reference.

[imLIN]

NAP...gosh we must be related...I forget things I want to say too...and usually end up saying something I didn't want to say!

Sounds like things went well...I understand about the sex life issues...this was an issue about 9 years ago when my H had an EA online...one of his complaints is that I wasn't passionate with him...of course I was working and raising kids...homeschooling on top of that...and I was tired...but I kicked it up a few notches and before long we were doing really well..until his real major part of the MLC hit...so if sex was an issue and you can use it to show him that you are able to change that then go for it...just be safe...I know it is hard to discuss but I did it...I told my H that while he might have trusted his OW I didn't...and I wasn't going to risk my life...we would use protection until he went to the Dr. and had an STD screening...it was embarassing but after about 6 months home, he did go get it done...and thankfully things were okay...so take care of YOU...

Take care...Lin

[NotAgainPlease]

Yes, I told him he had to use a condom. He hates it, ha ha. Swears he used one with OW. He hasn't used one in 13 years. Oh, poor guy!. We'll see how it goes. Hope I can continue down the right path.
I hear ya on the tired! I have 7 year old twins and was a SAHM for 5 years. I was always tired and he never thought I did anything, still does I think. Says I'm lazy. Whatever.
I'll keep ya posted. Thanks. S

[NotAgainPlease]

My H asked me tonite why im trying so hard to get him back. I didn't really know what to say. I said i'm just being nice. He said what about the sex I said that too.??? We talked about what else bothered him about our relationship. He said I was boring, short tempered, yelled and messy. I said things have changed. H said people can't change. Really! I said Ive been working on things and he has noticed but doesn't believe it I guess. He has not wanted to go out. He says I'm boring and don't want to party. I want to go home early. I said not anymore but if we don't go out you'll never see. We waivered back and for and now seems to be open to going out. I don't think it will be this weekend he may take the kids to see his grandmother. H really makes it hard to follow the rules. I guess you just adapt to your sitch??
S

[Nomopo]

Ok, you've said you've changed. Now you have to show it with your actions consistently over time. It's going to take a while for him to believe it, so be PATIENT.

BTW, he's given you a great roadmap for your DB strategies.

[TopJ]

We talked about what else bothered him about our relationship. He said I was boring, short tempered, yelled and messy. I said things have changed. H said people can't change. Really! I said Ive been working on things and he has noticed but doesn't believe it I guess. He has not wanted to go out. He says I'm boring and don't want to party. I want to go home early. I said not anymore but if we don't go out you'll never see.
S

If these are really his issues with you, then you do have a roadmap of what you need to change. Change them for you, but don't pressure him to SEE the changes. Telling him you've changed is a form pressure and control. Let him notice the changes.

Regarding the boring part, maybe a little more indepedence, mystery, and detachment would be good. He probably has guilt and low self-esteem, and may wonder why someone would want HIM so badly (who would want him? Does he respect someone who wants HIM so badly?).

Top Jimmy

[imLIN]

NAP...
My H asked me the same thing...why would I want such a broken man???...I simply said because I fell in love with him many years ago and see him going through a tough time...I don't agree with how he is doing things but I still love "that man"...when he recently went to a counselor for depression and past issues she told him (without even knowing about the A!) "Your wife must REALLY love you to have done the things she has. Most women would have bailed on you a long time ago!"...I think this was a bit eye opening for him too...
I had to snicker a bit too...my H said I was boring (when he had his mini-MLC), short tempered, yelled, and messy...funny thing is when he wasn't living with us it was easy to keep the house clean...now that he is back it is messy again...but since he hasn't been working and I am it is now HIS JOB...and he is seeing how hard it really is...he is even doing dishes for the first time in our entire married life!!!
Yes, you do have to develop your own method when they start coming around...being very very careful not to fall back into the old routines...avoiding boredom: plan some fun and exciting things...even if they are in your own backyard or bedroom!...short tempered: if your like me you hear yourself and know when you are doing this so stop and appologize then give yourself a time out, he will notice!...yelling: sort of goes with the short tempered, start catching yourself, appologize, then change your tone and soon this will get easier to control and even your kids will notice!...and messy: well I am still working on that one but just find one thing that you can focus on and really keep it neat, then expand from there....
I believe he is saying "people don't change" so that he doesn't get your hopes up, can still justify his reasons for leaving (if it was possible for you to change he didn't give you the chance so now he would have to admit he was wrong...this could take time and he may never actually verbally acknowledge your changes either)
As far as staying up late...I know how that goes...I go to work at 5:30 each morning (school bus driver, so I need my sleep!)...but I can make it out and stay up late once in a while...and he has to understand that...I just told my H either he accepted that or we switched and sometimes he had to get up with me at 4:30am and go do something I wanted to do...see how he would feel forced out of his sleep cycle!...but like I said, once in a while I can push myself to stay up till 11 or 12...and I can be fun...you still have it in you and I know you can show him if he gives you the chance...concerts are always fun, keep you awake, offer opportunities to dance and be goofy...and even have a few drinks to loosen up (but keep a designated driver or give yourself plenty of time after the drinks before you drive home)
Top Jimmy makes an interesting point on what H could be thinking...but the point about "Does he respect someone who wants HIM so badly?"...I think my H respected that I loved him enough to be able to forgive him...he knew I didn't except what he had done...he also found out I didn't NEED him like he always thought!...it was a choice to work things out with him...based on our history...I knew he wasn't the MLC man deep inside...that THE MAN I fell in love with at 15 was still there somewhere...

So take it slow and easy (good for you on insisting on condoms! my H was an idiot and used NO protection and she already had 4 kids...dodged a big bullet there!)

Take care....Lin

[NotAgainPlease]

Thank you all of you!



As far as my husband questioning my love or why I want him? He said something a few weeks before HE left. I went out with is friends and got pretty tanked and came home really late. The next AM he said why do you put up with my when I am such a F**k up. I said I love you.
I am getting that he is confused, suspicious or being tricked. Because of the way I have been acting now. He has said why are you doing this now. I say for myself and the kids. HE said he is so happy to hear that but it's too late for us. I try really hard not to say anything. In the past I'd say you don't know that. Now I just leave it alone. As far and commenting on what changes have taken place. your right Lin, he will not acknowledge them. I have lost 35lbs which I have wanted to do FOREVER and he has never said a thing. Keeping up with the house and the yard I know he has seen but again doesn't say. When he left and we went to the C he said he left because the house was too cluttered and a mess. That and we fought. She was a little confused about that but that was all he kept saying. So yesterday when he finally opened up and said I never wanted to go out, party or stay out late with him and I was so boring. I was like, wow. Finally he is telling me. Maybe he really didn't know this until he started dating OW??? They would go out and do things and he would also go out with his sister. I told him that one of the reasons I would say I wanted to go home was because when we went to a party or bar whatever. As soon as we walked in the door I was invisible. HE would talk and dance with friends and not me. He said I would always make excuses. My feet hurt, I was tired etc. I said yes that's because I won't going to sit around and watch him. I should have just found someone else to dance with then, I guess. I told him since we have been apart. I go out with my friends all the time and we stay out late. But since you won't take me out you'll never know. He has been insistent he does not want to date me its over. By the time he left he was kind of open to the idea. My husband is pretty easy for me to read. He says NO but there is always some openings in his voice and words at times when he is feeling comfortable. I need to keep him there!
We took the kids out to dinner last night after out long talk. H told s/d 7 that is was their uncles b-day this weekend and he was going down to visit G-grandmother. He asked them if they wanted to go. H looked at me and said what did I ruin something. (I think he was thinking about us going out this weekend cuz I said the kids could stay at H parents or friends) I just said no I was glad they were going to visit grandma! HE tests me I think, I know really!
H has convinced himself that I will not make the necessary changes. H is always questioning it. I is a HUGE step that he is even considering going out with me on a date. I have to really be patient and calm. Somewhere, somehow I have lost all my pain and emotion about the OW and we even talk about her and what went on. He is very hesitant about that too. He waits for me to blow. Not going to , not there. The only time I get emotional is when we talk about us. meaning never ever and over kind of stuff. I'm getting better and he is much more considerate. If I start to have tears he will say please don't cry , I'm sorry I feel this way. HUGE HUGE change. before he wouldn't care at all. I see big progress with him.
I don't know if in all cases but definitely in my case. Once the OW is out. However it can be done. They are more receptive to see YOU. One week ago.I would have said NOWAY NOHOW! and now I see a glimmer at the end of the tunnel.
Thanks for all the help and listening to me babble. this place really helps.
S

[NotAgainPlease]

oh, one more thing since my post wasn't long enough before :)!

SEX-that was another issue. Boring. Those are my words not his. I asked him (I KNOW I HEAR ALL OF YOU!) how it was with OW. He said it was better than us. I was hurt sucked it up and thought he meant the things they did or whatever??? Wrong when they, or maybe just mine says that its not the act its the excitement. The last few times I have been in charge of the sex and really spiced it up. We have done it about 6 times in the last 3 days. Then is asked (I KNOW!) about it being better with OW and he said no not anymore! Better with OW meant not boring not necessarily better. Just a thought for others!
So, if you question having sex with WAS and your not sure, in my case I took a chance because that was one of our issues. He definably likes it now and it has opened up or getting his mind thinking. In my opinion, you have to be able to control your emotions. When we would do it in the past months I couldn't and I'd cry and H would feel guilty and say not going to do it again. That wasn't working. As hard as it is, however you can, In my case I just woke up one morning after 5 long grueling months and emotion was gone!, you can't show emotion and you have to be in control.
S

[imLIN]

NAP...

Yep...when I got to that point where I could discuss things without breaking down we talked a lot about OW and how she compared to me...there are still a few things on my list of "want to know"...but I haven't found the right time as things are going along okay and I am not sure I want to know really...I finally did ask if I was the best "lover" he had ever had...I was his first and only until OW...before he would mumble...now he says that I am definitely the best...

It is a shakey road you are on now...but it sounds like you are doing great...wiggling in where you can...and backing off where you need to...

Keep up the good work....take care....Lin

[NotAgainPlease]

Lin,

Since we have been talking the last 3-4 days I haven't talked with HE. He is working out of town till tomorrow. I expect he will call the kids. I doubt he will talk to me. Usually that's the case. I by no means can say he has changed his mind about us. Just the lines are open and the is some hope.

Cant remember what I said about the sex. When I asked if she was better he said yes. When I asked yesterday he said now she isn't. I think he compares boring sex to new sex as being better. Not the actual actions that take place. Oh, I asked him yesterday if he thought about what we did last night while he as at work today and he said yes. At least he is thinking about it! Again, progress. I think until this there was only bad thoughts or none at all. Some say that a way to a mans heart is his stomach. In this case I think (hope) it is through his d**k. This is the only way I have been able to worm my way in. BORING NO MORE. Actually it is kind of fun. I do think though that it would be nice if HE would do or plan something exciting for me. In due time.

I still have a long road and I thank you for your help since out sitch are very similar. I keep telling myself about every hour to be patient and take it slow. He doesn't do well with pressure. This is why I'm (me) am not having any contact today to let him reflect.

I do hope he goes out of town this weekend. Even though I would like to have out first date. This would give us some space and me a weekend free. I think I have forgotten to mention. He thinks my Ex-H is trying to get back in the picture. He says he doesn't care but he has asked quite a few questions about he and I. Mystery, mystery! A little deceitful but?? Whatever works is how I look at it.

H did say I'm sure I will make you mad and you we will get in a fight again. HE really has no faith in me so I have my work cut out for me. He will watch everything I do to see if it sticks.
Strange how a lot of post are the same. No faith in thier LB spouse. I guess if I were the one who expected my H to change and keep it up (which he has some things to do but later!) I would be skeptical too.

S

[imLIN]

NAP...

Yep, I felt I was on "display" all the time and being watched for any little infraction...actually I was called on every little regression I did...it was a good thing for me though because it helped me keep myself in check...no falling back into the bad habits...

I also was greatful that H didn't just think about all the bad times...it was a while before he "remembered" the good times....it was over a year before he could tell me he loved me even though he said he was back and committed to making it work...of course that took several months too...he also said he never thought about me when he was away...never missed me...in fact he still doesn't miss me because he knows I am coming back from where ever I am...he is definitely a different person...

I also had/and still do most of the "initiating" any fun activities or sexual advances...he is very isolated most of the time with his emotions but once I reach out to him I do get a response...but this took time too...

It is a long road...I have been on the road to recovery for about a 16 months now...and while we have come a long way...I do see a long way to go...tonight was one of those times...I still have to wrong all the time if we have a difference...because his issue before was I always had to be right...so for now I let it go...pick my battles...and let the rest of the stuff go...

Like I said...it sounds like things are going in a positive direction...my H would call for the kids and not talk to me...that is pretty normal I think too....but I do see a lot of positives...a lot of things that were very similar to our situation...so just hang in there...if I can help at all just ask...it helps to follow in anothers footsteps through the snow then to find your own way and risk freezing to death...so I am here if you need me...but I think you are doing an awesome job of DB'ing with a tweak for your own situation...

[NotAgainPlease]

Lin,

Again thank you so much for you words. It really is helping me. I need to be Rip Van Ripple and go to sleep for a least a week. That way I can give him no contact & he might miss me & I can keep on my plan. Through all this I have never had no contact longer than 2 days. Of course there was the OW so he didn't notice or matbe he did but liked it. I want to try to give him some alone time. He has never been alone & I think he needs it.
He picks up the kids tomorrow pm. I will try to have them ready and send them out the door. But then again, if he comes in and is affectionit I won't turn it down. He did make the first move the first time. It hasn't all been me. I'm happy for that. He also hasn't shown any guilt which occured all the time before...softening???
Thanks again,
S

[imLIN]

S...

You are so welcome...I am very glad to help anyone going through anything similar to my experience...it can be so very confusing because you never know when or if they are coming back and had I just followed my H's "signs" I know I would be divorced by now and probably moving on with someone else...or at least not even seeing H as I think he would have managed to drink himself to death by now if he was still on his own (he is now being treated for alcoholism, severe depression, and diabetes along with a few other health issues that he aquired while gone....he is doing well with all of them now though but even the doctor said he could be dead by now if he hadn't stepped it up and started taking care of his health)....

I would say he is softening....like I said, my H was very set in making sure I understood that we were never going to live together again...and he kept that up until about a month before starting to come home...of course with him sex was not an issue and it was only after he had expressed "desire" for me that he actually started to make those moves home....and of course he was drunk at the time and says he doesn't remember much...so I nicely filled him on his appology to me, his feelings of guilt and worthlessness...and my acceptance of his appology and my confirmation that if he wanted to he could be worth anything...that was our beginning road...and it was rocky and bumpy for sometime mostly due to his drinking...

I never really had to "go dark"...H would disappear for months (upto 6 at a time) with no contact...no money sent for support...no return calls to our young son...no answer to emails from our son...basically I would begin to wonder if he was dead or not...it was hard because I didn't know and he really was showing me that I was going it alone...and like your H, he had never been on his own...he got kicked out by his alcoholic father after his grandmother died and he came to live at my house in a trailer parked in the driveway...my mom became like his second mom...when I turned 18 we got married...so really neither of us had ever been in the world alone...when he left me and the kids he left us with my folks...as soon as I could I got a job, my girls got jobs, we figured out our budget and got an apartment...this is where we still are...even after the fact that H said he would not live in this apartment because he didn't like it here....he hasn't asked us to move out yet and seems quite happy with the living set up now....

In a way I think the fact that your H seeks affection from you says a lot...especially in his state of confusion...he is finding himself but knows where he feels good...and with OW out of the picture he only has one "feel good" place to go...my H felt good with a bottle...so even after OW was gone I had to compete with the alcohol(when alcohol is the OW she is everywhere)...and there is no way I could make him really forget like a bottle of vodka could...his health was really being affected so I had to make a hard decision...I told him he would have to leave if he was going to continue to drink because I would not allow him to expose his kids to the life he grew up with...not even a tiny bit of it (he was also sexually abused and grossly emotionally abused as a young boy)...he did good for a while and then tested me (or the bottle, not sure which)...so I called 9-1-1 and had him taken to the hospital...he went into treatment the next morning....he had one slip and I again had him taken to the hospital via ambulance...the first ER doctor told me that I had to stand my ground or he would walk all over me....I did stand my ground and now he is almost 7 months sober...or 10 with one slip off of the wagon...either way he is now committed to stay away from alcohol and take care of himself...that always had to be his decision...mine was if he chose the bottle...he moved out...it was scary but I knew for my children that I had to be strong...

My point in this rambling is most likely if your H comes home, he will come with baggage he didn't leave with...and you will have to pick your battles...sometimes, even when you feel like it might make them leave again, if it is important enough to the family's well being...then you have to be tough...just a head's up so you can keep working on that patience, temper, and fun-loving new you no matter what happens...

Before I would have begged and pleaded...done anything including helping him hide his drinking from the kids...the new strong, but loving me, will make sure he gets the help he needs but I won't walk on egg shells like that again...

In the beginning I thought I was the only one that was making changes...how unfair was that?...I was the one that stood for my vows....but now after several years of my changes standing as proof of who I am...he is starting to change...

It is a long, winding, bumpy as hell road...but it does smooth back out into a normal marital path eventually...just keep going with your gut, mind, and heart....and hang in there...

Take care....Lin

[NotAgainPlease]

Hi Lin,

My H too has his battle with the bottle. HE has a big family background of alcoholics and I do too. We have had many fights about it. He is mild compared to his brother and my father & step father. Actually he has been pretty good since he left. Stress really brings it on though. Funny thing as much as he knows how much I hate it, I don't really think its him but the childhood memories, he has come over here several times after being at the bar. Wanting sex saying he still loves me who knows what could happen etc. The next day doesn't remember any of it. Says sorry he said all that it wasn't true. HE is not an every dayer. He gets really drunk once or twice month. Has a few beers everyday. After went to C I understood how I was treating him because of my Fathers. I am a lot more tolerant of it now.

I do have to say my H is somewhat of a follower. If I am nice he is nice and visa versa. But then I have to say my moods do the same. If he comes home grouchy I become the same or I try to make him happy and he gets worse. I am learning now to ignore him when he is like this and that is better and what he wants. guess that if I do all the changes now he will follow. At least that is what the books say. So I guess I'm not worried about doing all the changing. It will be worth it in the long run.

Yes, I am happy that he seems to need affection from me. He has been doing this the whole time. If I give him a hint or opening he will come in. Except the drunk nights those he was all on his own. Again, he has always been like that when we fought. He would never know how to approach me I would have to start and he would then join in. Not sure what all this means..As far as now I am opening the door and seeing how it goes. We will see what happens today when he comes back in town. He is supposed to pick up the kids. I have to really try to be a little distant with him. In the past he has said that I am too much. Meaning I don't give him space. We talk too much or whatever. However, that was when the OW was in the picture, so??? But I am trying to give him space as HARD as it is. I'm so not good at this. I will be writing a book on patience by the time I am finished.

We will see what happens tonight. I just have to keep telling myself TAKE IT SLOW. Don't expect anything. I think the big key will be if he ever takes me on a date. He along with never ever will we be together again, would he ever take me out on a date. So, with him saying maybe the other day. When I told him that the new me can be fun. He'll just have to take me out. He didn't say no, well maybe at first, but then said maybe or I'll have to see for myself. Is a huge step forward. The other thing I have to do is keep the duct tape on and don't let him get me mad if he says something I don't like. I am thinking that they really don't consciously try to test us but they do. I don't think they say I'm going to try now and see. I think that they view the results after. Usually you don't hear if it is good only BAD! I guess I am just thinking things out on paper :}.
Well I guess that is it for now!
Take care,
S

[imLIN]

Wow your case sounds so similar to mine...H has a huge family history of alcoholics...I have a few...he also wasn't ever an every day drunk but once or twice a month...believe it or not this just about did him physically...the not remembering is called a "black out"...that is not a good sign if they really are being honest about not remembering...the doctor told my H that he was on a fast track to destruction when he found out about the black outs...

I could pretty much have written what you just posted...I did attend a few Al-anon meetings to learn to deal with his drinking and to realize that it wasn't me...nor could I change it...but I could control how I dealt with it...and I didn't have to accept it...we had many an argument in the past about his drinking...he would have long spells where a few beers were fine...then something would trigger a good drunk in him and it was all down hill...at the end he finally admitted that he was losing control...that once he started he could no longer stop at 2...and that is why he will never be able to drink again...he seems fine with that...doesn't expect me to not drink...actually he just says he will be my designated driver from now on...

Okay...well just got home from work and need to get dinner finished...

take care...and I have some duct tape if you need some...or need help applying it... :-) Lin

[Nomopo]

NAP - some great things going on in this thread between you and IL. Really helpful to all of us. And oyu sound good, and do think H is softening. But it will take lots of time (I think) so keep that patience. And expect ups and downs. You're doing it, so keep on keeping on!

Nomopo

[NotAgainPlease]

Well he came over for dinner after he got back. His attitude was still good. Asked about the ex husband I kinda played it off. The more mysterious the better I think for now. HE is playing soccer with the kids right now.

I am sure there have been many black outs over the years. I just haven't been where I am now and asking him why he says things to me and not mean it. Like getting back together. I have not been t any meetings. My BIL did for a long time and was sober for 2 years. Then started drinking again. He was pretty bad for a while but his wife is Mrs. Hitler and keeps him in line. I just haven't been that successful. But then again my H wasn't like BIL he was BAD. My H knows there is a problem bt tries to deal with it himself. So far he has been okay. I'm really glad/suprised he didn't go off the deep end.
I'll let you know what happens tonite. They are coming in.
S

[imLIN]

My H also tried to deal with it himself...and I thought he was doing pretty good till the doctor pulled me aside when I had him taken to the ER when he got drunk and I didn't want him in the house...that is when the Dr. told me that my H was really an alcoholic...you don't have to drink all the time to be one...

As for saying things they don't mean...well it goes both ways I think...my H would say mean and ugly things and then other times, especially when we were reconciling...he would tell me he loved me, had always loved me, and really exposed some deep feelings...later he admitted that those things were more true then not but that when he was sober he couldn't tell me those things because he was trying to protect himself and me...

And as for Mrs. Hitler...well sometimes it works...I went that route for many years...I called when he could drink, not drink, what he could drink, how much he could drink...then after he had decided he was leaving he quit following my "orders" and did as he pleased...it did work for most of the 27 years we were together...but one thing I learned is that you really can't control someone else's drinking...you might think you are...but your not...what you can do is set boundries for yourself...if they want to be with you, then they stay within those boundries...realizing that it is something they have control over...that they have to do to have a successful, happy, and balanced life...

His brother is a really bad alcoholic....5 marriages later and I don't know how many years in jail/prison and he lives with his mother and is supposedly a reformed born again Christian...but still keeps a bottle within reach...I think he would suffer seizures if he tried to quit on his own...

I do wish you the best...and your H too...really you have to feel sorry for them being so lost and beginning to realize how screwed up they been...how many people they have hurt...like I told my H...you can buy all the things you want, drink all the drinks you want...but if you don't have the people you love and who love you what have you got???

NOMOPO...glad you are getting something from this...it is just amazing to me that there is someone so close to my situation...when all this was happening I really thought my H was beyond MLC...and I really thought my situation was so unique...I now have learned that is not the case...sad but true facts...

Take care....Lin

[NotAgainPlease]

Lin & Nomo,

I'm too; glad if someone gets something from this. Sad but true it's what it's all about! Along with me too! Thank you.

I know by H is a real alcoholic. He knows it too. I hope someday he will see the need to do something. I do know it has to be their choice. As far as my BIL oh, I know his W can't keep him under control for ever, I hope they can do something about it.

Well, last night my H ate dinner with us and spent the night. We ML. We did a little talking. He said that he didn't care (I guess he feels he has no right) about me being with my EH. HE thinks I am and at this point I’m going with it. He said admitted he was jealous. WOW! Huge breakthrough. He knows he can't do anything to stop it know..He seems very receptive about coming over here. Doesn't really hesitate. He was really tired last night and put both kids to bed and fell asleep with each one. I kept having to go and wake him. He said he was going to go home and I said he could stay the night since he was working with my neighbor @6am. He said and you want to ML and you have done it with me so many times when you didn't want so I will. OMG I can't believe he admitted to even knowing this..I said we dont't have to your tired you can go home. He said no he would stay. Put up no fight like usual and that was that. I don’t know I'm trying to think and be cautiously slow but things just keep coming out. I still in no way think he's on his way home yet if at all. It just seems to be going a little faster than I thought.
I even bring up in my conversations (probably shouldn't) about other people. Like what if you are with someone else what are they going to think about me? He said well we aren't dating its just sex. It's so weird how we can talk like this. I said it doesn't have to be like that. You are supposed to take me out for our night out. He said ya. I feel like I have to still act as if! I don't expect us to get back together. He does choose and has chosen his words very carefully. He will talk about things if I initiate it. Doesn't seem to mind or open up but I have to start. That's nothing new though.
I know there still a long way to go. He doesn't kiss me hello or good bye. Funny though he stared to when he said he was going home last night.
Oh and he said that he had been thinking about our sexcapades while we were gone. I know or think I should say it confuses him. He said he never thought he would feel like that again. Right know I'll take lust over hate :}.

He said that he and the kids were going to go to Fresno (ugh) for the weekend. Glad for that. The more the space the better. Forced for me anyway. Makes it much easier..He said to that now you can go out with your boyfriend. Ha ha.

We'll see where it goes!

Take care, S

[imLIN]

Me and my H had those discussions many times...w/out the sex part though...I think it is okay to send out feelers...at least he admits to thinking about you while he is away...my H said he never thought of me nor missed me...only the kids and he knew I would take care of them...my H's childhood really is a big part of this I think...I know...the abuse was one part but not ever feeling that "connective love"...his sister admitted that she married her first H (she has been married now 3 times)she married because of his family...it is what she always wanted...H admitted to me when I talked to him about this that he married me because of my family...he knew I wouldn't leave him...he has abandonment issues...funny, he was the one who bailed on his family and not me...anyways...he said he doesn't think he ever really loved me or knew what love was...but then again he says he never really stopped loving me....so see how confused they are???

When my H and I started reconnecting it went very fast...started to scare him a lot...I remember one time we were out after a pretty hot night the night before....I leaned to kiss him and he froze....I felt the vault door slam shut on me...but at least this time he admitted he was scared...he was afraid that he might not be able to fall in love with me again, that he might run away again, that he might fail his family again, that he might want to die instead of go through all what we did again...see how confused they are???...so I gave him a hug...and said well I have been here for this long...take your time (just NO OW, probably shouldn't have put that in there but I am not one who could share, just how I am)

It is hard to really read them at this point...even when they are "trying" to come home I think they are dealing with so many "what if's" that they are afraid of their own feelings so it is easier to deny them...your H is coming to you for a reason...and it isn't just sex...he could get that anywhere...he did before...last night he didn't stay because it was "his turn" to be nice...he could have left and he knows it...he stayed because even though he won't admit it he enjoys being with YOU...true, there may be no love right now...like I said it took over a year with my H...but the seeds are planted...just hold your course...you have history...his mind will remember...and it will start remembering more and more of the good times...although my H still has a lot of negative feelings about our marriage (I think sometimes he was replaced by an alien because I certainly don't remember the misery as he does)he is remembering and having fond thoughts...he even iniated the other night...I had to ask in the morning if it was his idea or if I was just sending out signals in my sleep because I do that sometimes...but I woke up to him touching me sexually...WOW...that was a change for him...and he told me it was his idea...he said "You weren't awake when I started so who's idea do you think it was?"...anyway, things keep improving little by little...

Take care...and enjoy your weekend...oh, and my H never got jealous and is JUST now showing signs of jealousy or concern if I am working late...

Lin

[NotAgainPlease]

Im going to post here what I posted to NOMO. A little of our C history.

I (we) too went to Imago Counseling. The whole time we were there my H said he was only their to learn to communicate with me re the kids. They really stress this on the sessions. Probably that is the only way they can get the resistant spouse in. We went 4 times and really got know where. Mostly because H kept saying he was done. No way would we get back together we were talking about our issues and it got pretty hot at times. Then I found out about OW was really PA not just a friend and he had been lying about it and we stopped. I believe the dialog is rally good. We were going to start that but we stopped going. If do reconcile I really think that would be important. Be glad your W is participating with you. C feels that if you learn to communicate you bring feelings back! I hope so for you.

Someday I will learn how to quote :}.
As far as love language, I too could put my self in one category. I am all over the board! Also, I kept going back to where they would say, in the books, that you need to do the things that you did when you first were together. 1) If they don't want to be with you, How? 2) I just couldn't figure out exactly what that was. It has been 12 years for God's sake! . Then the light bulb went off. It wasn't going out, flowers etc. for us it was Sex. We were young and had no one but ourselves to worry about. I honestly didn't realize the importance of it! Anyway, you are doing a great job. You are so much more loyal and structured about all of this than me. I am so fly by the seat of the pants person. Usually gets me in trouble. That's probably why I fought him tooth and nail for 5 months. I knew in my head it was wrong I had been through it with my first H. Did it all wrong and pushed him to the OW. I just fell in the same hole again. But I did eventually get out!

Keep up the great work! It's seems like you are getting some progress out of your W. I swear all H/W are programmed to SAY the something. How and why I don't know but they all do. Weird.

S

[NotAgainPlease]

Lin,



I think yours and my husband could be one in the same. I so glad you found me!

I know he had a choice and he is feeling things. HE is just so scared too. Kids, going back to the old ways, me not continuing what I have started etc. I really understand. I would never want to do this again to the kids or ME again. Are you kidding?

My H says he never thought about me either. Also, never really thought he love me or knew what love meant as well. They are so a like! So when he said he had been thinking about us I was floored. Just gotta keep on going!

As far as it going so fast, that is why I'm happy that we have these breaks. It gives him a chance at alone time to process.
I too am not into sharing. H said he was not sleeping with OW. Swore up and down. That was not the truth. Said it was none of my business. I think he didn't want to hurt me either. Actually I wish I would have known. It would have been easier to understand his anger/moods and I would have not said or done some things I did. Oh well, water under the bridge now.

It's kind of exciting and becoming a game now. Not to make light of it but it sure feels better than before. I just have to keep positive.

S

[imLIN]

There were a few times after H's beginning to return that he would stay away for a few days...I didn't panic...or call him all the time...soon he was calling me to tell me when he would be home...or where he was...somehow this really created a sense of trust in me because before he would tell me it was none of my business and this was when we were still together before he left!

I do see a lot of positives....and based on my own experience you still have a lot of reason to hope...and hear you that you don't ever want to go through this again...I know I wasn't supposed to say this to H but I did...I told him "I am sticking my neck out here. I don't think I could do this ever again. I certainly wouldn't be doing this if I thought this had no chance of working out."...we talked about the kids...of course H said all along "the kids will be fine, they are old enough."...but again I think this is to convince them that they aren't really hurting people that they love!...but the truth is they do hurt their children...and eventually they have to face that too...but I think that is way down the road when the kids feel safe enough that they can verbalize that to their dad...

The breaks are good...keeps you GAL...that is something that I have maintained...I used to be afraid to leave H at home alone after he returned...but I had to force myself to go do things for me...he notices...and I now I am more at ease with myself and him...I don't/won't live my life revolving around him...if he doesn't want to go or do something I want to do...I will go without him...not all the time but enough to show him and myself that I am an independant person, capable of taking care of myself emotionally and physically...

So keep towing that load....there is a down hill side eventually!

Take care....Lin

[NotAgainPlease]

Lin,


I swear all WAS are programmed to say the same thing. Where do they learn the lingo? It is sooo strange. When I read yours and other post the reasoning is the same. There must be a secret manual they follow. My H too said the kids will be fine, they will bounce back...Right!!!

I agree I need to keep GAL and moving on and not show that I'm going to sit around. H asked or commented that I would be going out this weekend. I said yes, No kids why not...We'll see if he calls or thinks about it this weekend away.
The only thing I have done that I'm not sure follows the book is that I act as if we are not getting back together. I have found that if I have mentioned it he would have backed off or give me the never never line. So I have not said that I wanted him back. We are just friends and just getting along. Sort of being there for each other to see what happens. I don't want to pressure him or make him think I am doing this to get him back. He has asked several times why I'm being so nice and I say I just want to get along. I he said you'll get mad at me and we'll get in a fight over something. WA is always testing and skeptical?? We have to pa bills today and I have not been looking forward to this. If there is going to be a fight it will be here. I told him yesterday I have been dreading this because it always makes him so grouchy and I feel like I have to fix his attitude. I am determined not to fight and just ignore him and let him be. Last time he did and he got upset I just ignored him and he commented the next day that was good. What he wanted to do. I wanted to say if we didn't have to maintain 2 households we wouldn't be in this sitch. I did say one time it's not going to get better if we divorce. So this is my challenge for the day! I'm going to need the whole roll of DT today!!!I think since we talked about it yesterday how I was worried about us fighting I have diffused the fire???

Any advice on whether I should tell him my agenda of getting back together. Not that he doesn't know. He does I have told him enough prior. I have not said I love him either. It's just my experience it puts him on the defensive when I do and I don't want to go backwards.


I have a long way to go and need to be patient. I know there will be many obstacles. It's nice to put them down here to get opinions and to think them out.

I really am looking forward to this weekend he will be away with the kids. I want to see the results when H comes back. But then again there may be nothing. I won't let that stop me from my goal.

S

[Nomopo]

Any advice on whether I should tell him my agenda of getting back together.

Why would you do that?

Not that he doesn't know. He does I have told him enough prior.

I'm thinking you just answered your own question.[/quote]

[NotAgainPlease]

Thanka Nomo,

I guess what I was trying to get at is that from DB I got that we should express feelings,I love you, etc. I wasn't sure how important that is. Guess in my case not!
My H & I are in a wierd place right now. Like BF but sleep together and kind of a casual relationship. We talk about things like we have no emotional feelings. Like what if I get a boy/girlfriend what will they think? I said what do you need a GF for if you have me? He said oh ya, your right. He is very careful about his words and doesn't volunteer feelings. Like I said if you are not happy wth us now the way we are or you don't want to be with me??? He said did I say I didn't?? I said no. Then said well then? He said maybe this is a trap? I said no maybe you are? For all I know you are still w/ OW. He said no but you have every right to think that.

I guess I'm over thinking..I need to go with it. I guess this is part of my process. There is no manual and I just need to follow the path created. It's working so far so I'll keep it up. I can't reading other threads and think mine will be the same. My sitch seems so out there the way I'm going about it. Thats life! I'm just babbling hear but its good to think it out here and get input.
Thanks,

S

[Nomopo]

I guess what I was trying to get at is that from DB I got that we should express feelings,I love you, etc.

But you've already done it, multiple times!

My H & I are in a wierd place right now. Like BF but sleep together and kind of a casual relationship. We talk about things like we have no emotional feelings.

No R talk! PATIENCE! You can't rush resolution. He needs time. Don't try to pressure/control him.

Like what if I get a boy/girlfriend what will they think? I said what do you need a GF for if you have me? He said oh ya, your right.

R talk!! I wouldn't engage in this conversation. Just listen. You pressured him with "what do you need a girlfriend for, you have me. That's the crazy alien talking. Don't reason with that person! Just let him figure it out while GALing and becoming as attractive a person to him as you can.

Like I said if you are not happy wth us now the way we are or you don't want to be with me??? He said did I say I didn't?? I said no. Then said well then? He said maybe this is a trap? I said no maybe you are? For all I know you are still w/ OW. He said no but you have every right to think that.

NO R TALK!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I guess I'm over thinking.

Yes! Too focused on what he's doing. Focus on what you're doing.

There is no manual and I just need to follow the path created.

There's DB/DR!

It's working so far so I'll keep it up. I can't reading other threads and think mine will be the same. My sitch seems so out there the way I'm going about it.

It is working and your sitch doesn't seem so different. At the core, they are all the same, and that's why the DR book is so AWESOME!

[NotAgainPlease]

Nomom,

Thank you I look forward to your honest & straight to the point answers. They are always welcome and appreciated.

Okay, I'd better get out the book and re-read it for the 8th time. Pages are getting worn :}.. It really is something you need to go back to often. In my pea brain I think I can remember it even though I have read it so many times.

I have all weekend to do it with the kids and H gone. Actually it doesn't take that long and since we all have read it so much we can pick out what we need! You have a good weekend, Nomo.

Thank you again!
S

[Nomopo]

My pleasure. We ALL need to be reminded.

[NotAgainPlease]

Especially me. I am miss impatient, instant gratification. It is so hard not to feel them out! I am stopping today! You just feel out of control and vulernable. I guess I will have to trust the process. Very unlike me! But determined.

Thanks,
S

[Nomopo]

You can do it. I know you can.

[NotAgainPlease]

Thank you! After all this is over with you. I think you would be a great DB Coach!
S

[NotAgainPlease]

Well, H went out of town with the kids last night. I called to say hi to them today. H asked did you go on a date last night. I said it was my business and why when you had OW and I'd ask you you'd say it was none of my business. He said because you would have been hystarical. Maybe??? Funny though that he's asking....no I didn’t but if it gets his goat thinking I did well then???
This is such a dance/game what ever you want to call it. But whatever works I guess. I'm not really lying just not answering

Oh, we also got in a little spat when he was leaving. He was putting the kids in the car and I picked up a piece of paper on his floorboard. I knew what it was it was the phone number of one of our friends. I had seen it before when I borrowed H truck.
H yelled hey quit being nosey and take this. He was trying to hand something to me. I got mad and went into the house. Came back out and kissed kids goodbye.
I later sent a text saying I was sorry I wasn't being nosey I had seen it before and new who it was. If it was something bad for me to see you wouldn't have left it out. I also said I didn't appreciate being yelled and talk to like that. He said he was sorry. I also said you have always said that I am too quick to react I believe it is you now. H has such a short fuse with me. It's funny how time makes you forget the negative things. I guess as DBers we are supposed to look at those things at a later date? I was waiting for that to happen but we mgot through it pretty well.

S

[Trip]

Get his goat, girl!!!

You have him thinking but tread lightly!

[NotAgainPlease]

Thank you Trip. I hear ya. I have to talk myself down, all the time, not to go too far. Patience,patience.....GAL..mystrey...and the hardest for me, distance. Give me an inch....
S

[NotAgainPlease]

H called and not sure how we got on subject but we were talking about sex. I guess I'm a little confused here. Sex was my way of reeling H back in. Now my dilema is, is that all he wants. HE keeps mentioning no strings, no traps etc. I feel that he is testing the waters or he wouldn't be talking to me at all. I said something about well all you want is sex and won't take me out and he said your right. This was well into the converation. I didn't intiate the sex talk. He said if I wanted to stop we could????Any opinions out there. Out of all that I have tried to do this was the only thing he responded to. This was with OW and without. I don't know if I should just go with it or stop and see. I don't want him to use me for this in between OW and not really wanting to be with me. Here goes my head thinking again..He seems happy to be with me when we are. Nice and friendly when we talk. We joke and laugh, which we haven't done forever. May be I'm just being stupid. I go back and forth because, how do you believe after all the lies????
Thanks,
S

[Nomopo]

S,

I don't really know what to say. This issue is not "relevant" to my sitch, so i haven't thought about it or studied it much. But here is a link to something Michele wrote on the topic, and hopefully it will help: Link

Hope it helps,
Nomopo

[NotAgainPlease]

Thank you Nomo, I will read it. S

[NotAgainPlease]

Well it was like she wrote it for me. Since in has been on and off over the last 5 mos. and now on regularly for only a week I guess I'll keep up my journey for a while and see what happens. The article was very helpful to me. Thank you NOMO!!

That's my brain thinking again. I wish there was a switch to just go with the flow and relax. I'm grateful for this place to be able to put it in words and get advice before I act. What a find this place is for all of us.

S

[Nomopo]

You're welcome!

And remember, you still can't believe what he says. I'm not saying he's lying or that the opposite is true when he says he has no feelings or its just physical or it doesn't mean anything. I'm just saying you can't trust what he says either way. Its alien spew still, right?

[NotAgainPlease]

Yes, I know it's such a strange thinmg to not believe what they say. Not something I'm used to. I am also probably too trusting. This is probably one of the hardest things to do besides detatching. But I need to do it!
Thanks,

S

[galing]

H called and not sure how we got on subject but we were talking about sex. I guess I'm a little confused here. Sex was my way of reeling H back in. Now my dilema is, is that all he wants. HE keeps mentioning no strings, no traps etc. I feel that he is testing the waters or he wouldn't be talking to me at all. I said something about well all you want is sex and won't take me out and he said your right. This was well into the converation. I didn't intiate the sex talk. He said if I wanted to stop we could????Any opinions out there. Out of all that I have tried to do this was the only thing he responded to. This was with OW and without. I don't know if I should just go with it or stop and see. I don't want him to use me for this in between OW and not really wanting to be with me. Here goes my head thinking again..He seems happy to be with me when we are. Nice and friendly when we talk. We joke and laugh, which we haven't done forever. May be I'm just being stupid. I go back and forth because, how do you believe after all the lies????
Thanks,
S

Think about this? Will you respect yourself in 5 months (if the marriage ends or doesn't end) for having sex with someone that is treating you the way your spouse is or that may be with someone else right now? Are you doing this for your spouse or you? While I believe it is good to do things to help your marriage, respecting yourself must come first. I often told myself it was just sex. But when it comes down to it, now that I have my confidence, my self respect, my being back.... I would not sleep with him anymore, because I respect myself too much too. It depends on teh situation.. only you know how you are being treated and if it is a good idea and how you may feel about it later. If you are questioning it... maybe postpone more physical intimancy until you are more sure. Talk to someone about it, like a counselor.

[NotAgainPlease]

Galing,

I read Michelle's article on sex and it is kind of vague. I had talk with H about it. Which I know I shouldn't have done and not supposed to believe most of what H says, but I needed to for my own sake. Basically it ended like this. Well first I have to say my H has a really problem taking any responsibility for any of his actions. Nothing new has always done this. He said I was the one who wanted it. When he initiated it. I went with it after that though. He said I said it was not strings and it was just fun. That I did. He said I know you want more but I don't so if I have a problem with it we will stop. We had a really back slide from there are bills, kids etc. We weren't fighting re relationship talk but about typical issue in our marraige. His not wanting to talk and denial. I really think it's time to quit. I don't think I can or want to do this anymore. I can change till the cows come home but the same issues will still going to be there that I don't have confidence he is capable of changing in himself. I guess I am kind of angry tonight. I did call him back after we got in a fight and said I don't want to do this (fight) and he said me either but then it started again. I said bye and hung up. He called me back and D7 answered the phone and I said please tell him I am done for the night. Who knows what he was going to say. S7 called him back to say goodnight but he wouldn't answer probably thought it was me...

Tomorrow is a new day!

S

[NotAgainPlease]

I LM for H this am and said I'm sorry I didn't want to take your call last night. I just didn't want to fight and I didn't want to say something I didn't mean. That's a big one for me. I love a good fight!!! H called back this am and I answered. He said hi how are you? I said fine thanks. That's a bid one for him. He's trying to be nice. I asked if he listened to VM and he said no. Just say the call. So I told him what I said. He said thank you he appreciated that. He said he has some peaches to give me too. I asked him if had his laundry, because I was going to do it yesterday but when I left his house last night he said no he'll take care of it. I said fine I'm not oing to beg to do it. Anyway he said no but if I'd do it he'd appreciate it. so?? I just don't know where to go from hear.

I fell like I need to stop the sex even though it keeps us connected. Cuz he said its just sex & fun doesn't mean anything nor will it ever...I need to back off and be busy more. Since he is alone now (OW no longer) and needs to be lonely???

S

[NotAgainPlease]

One more thing, what do you all think? Re feelings. Next time I talked to H I was going to say : I understand how you feel and that this D is up to you but I love you and want it to work out. We have been getting along really well and I would like to continue it as long as we agree I would like to work it out and you don't. I am just a little confused if I need to tell him I love him??? I know he knows this. Or just drop it all and keep going..OMG I am so confused all I keep hearing is hes just doing it for fun and nothing more. I know I am not supposed to believe what I hear but I can't not wonder????
I think at this point I really need to call the DB coach???

[Nomopo]

I read Michelle's article on sex and it is kind of vague. I had talk with H about it. Which I know I shouldn't have done and not supposed to believe most of what H says, but I needed to for my own sake.

Why? What did you hope to achieve? Did you? What damage was done?

Well first I have to say my H has a really problem taking any responsibility for any of his actions. Nothing new has always done this.

Ok, and you know this issue will have ot be tabled for some time down the road, if ever.

We had a really back slide from there are bills, kids etc. We weren't fighting re relationship talk but about typical issue in our marraige. His not wanting to talk and denial.

This sounds like a recurring theme in your past. More of the same behavior for both of you? You should study this exchange for insight in what to do different per DB.

I really think it's time to quit. I don't think I can or want to do this anymore.

Your call, but I suggest the 48-hour rule.

I can change till the cows come home but the same issues will still going to be there that I don't have confidence he is capable of changing in himself.

I doubt you have tried everything, but frankly fixing these R issues just isn't in the cards right now. That's for down ther road, after he "decides" to not walk away. That's why there should be no R talk now.

I guess I am kind of angry tonight.

Manage those emotions! When you felt yourself getting angry, try to get away from him. Take a time out. Calmly announce you need a few minutes and go for a walk.

I did call him back after we got in a fight and said I don't want to do this (fight) and he said me either but then it started again.

How? What happened to "start up" again? Study it so you can learn and not repeat it.

Tomorrow is a new day!

Yes, it is!!!

I LM for H this am and said I'm sorry I didn't want to take your call last night. I just didn't want to fight and I didn't want to say something I didn't mean. That's a big one for me.

Sounds ok. Maybe could have just let it go, but maybe not. Maybe you extended value to him by the call.

I love a good fight!!!

Sally, do you love a good fight at the expense of your M? That is a very serious question? Is being right more important to you?

H called back this am and I answered. He said hi how are you? I said fine thanks. That's a bid one for him. He's trying to be nice. I asked if he listened to VM and he said no. Just say the call. So I told him what I said. He said thank you he appreciated that. He said he has some peaches to give me too.

Ok, sounds like it is in the past, so that night does not need to be revisited anymore. You should study it at length to learn, but then let it go.

I asked him if had his laundry, because I was going to do it yesterday but when I left his house last night he said no he'll take care of it. I said fine I'm not oing to beg to do it. Anyway he said no but if I'd do it he'd appreciate it. so??

Sounds like you offered. If so, do it. To retract the offer now would look bad. After this, I'd not go out of my way to offer. If he asks, and you want to do it, do it.

I fell like I need to stop the sex even though it keeps us connected. Cuz he said its just sex & fun doesn't mean anything nor will it ever...I need to back off and be busy more. Since he is alone now (OW no longer) and needs to be lonely???

This is your call. I see it going either way really. But I would decide based on what YOU want and are comfortable with, not in an effort to control him.

One more thing, what do you all think? Re feelings. Next time I talked to H I was going to say : I understand how you feel and that this D is up to you but I love you and want it to work out. We have been getting along really well and I would like to continue it as long as we agree I would like to work it out and you don't. I am just a little confused if I need to tell him I love him??? I know he knows this. Or just drop it all and keep going.

Doesn't he know all of that already? Why would you want to say it? What's your goal in saying it? If its to make sure he knows, I think he knows cause you've told him before. And, by the way, do you really feel like "We have been getting along really well"? Sounds like you have been fighting.

OMG I am so confused all I keep hearing is hes just doing it for fun and nothing more. I know I am not supposed to believe what I hear but I can't not wonder????

It might be true, but it might not. The point is, you don't know. So stop wasting time and energy worrying about it. You're driving yourself crazy. I know it's hard, and we all have done it, but you have to push those thoughts out of your mind. On the sex issue, decide what you want and what you are comfortable with, and chart your course from there. And I think it is possible he says that but it's not true. Who knows. Don't worry about what he says.

I think at this point I really need to call the DB coach???

I think it could help. Who's your coach? Mine is Chuck, but I think Stillme uses Laurie. It might help you to have a woman. Ask Still how she likes Laurie.

Hope it helps, and hugs to you,
Nomopo

[NotAgainPlease]

Oh Nomo,

I am so thankful for you. I LOVE how honest and to the point you are with me. I definitely need it. I am my worst enemy!

As far as telling him how I feel..I think I have read too many books. Now I have them all mixed up in my head...I know he knows how I feel and visa versa so I guess shouldn’t think about it he knows where I stand. If he was worried about it he wouldn't do it either???
As far as getting along. That was pre-Friday! Not now, so I agree with you.

Fighting...my problem because it’s the only way I get a reaction or emotion out of him. This is MY PROBLEM and need to stop...
I was pretty sure that the issues in our marriage were to be dealt with at a later date. They just surfaced last night when I was upset and I tend to forget the negative now and only remember the good.. So I was questioning my reasons for wanting to work it out...
Leaving the message to me was a sign of change. In the past I would have taken the call and fought or been a b**ch. So by me not taking it and admitting it is something he did notice and said he appreciated it. I know in some cases I should just let it go but I felt in this case it was good for me to do this. Yes, value I think! I am one to work it out now my H is one to ignore and leave and not deal. This is why we have had issues in the past.

The laundry I guess I was trying to do an act of service. I'm not sure that is important to him. I have been known to over do this in our marriage. I guess I'll stop it all together and see it he notices. He says he appreciates it but I don't know if that is true....


Thank you, Thank you, Thank you, you are such help for me.
S

[Nomopo]

Oh Nomo,

I am so thankful for you. I LOVE how honest and to the point you are with me. I definitely need it.

Awww. That made me feel good! Thanks!

I am my worst enemy!

But guess what!!! You control you!!!!

As far as telling him how I feel..I think I have read too many books. Now I have them all mixed up in my head.

Right. Most of those books are for a different stage than we're in. They don't apply to the walkaway scenario. Right now, we need to plant seed sof doubt and get them to reinvest. Then the two of you can work together on improving your R/M.

..I know he knows how I feel and visa versa so I guess shouldn’t think about it he knows where I stand. If he was worried about it he wouldn't do it either???

Yep.

As far as getting along. That was pre-Friday! Not now, so I agree with you.

Makes sense to me now.

Fighting...my problem because it’s the only way I get a reaction or emotion out of him. This is MY PROBLEM and need to stop...

Yep, because the only emotions and reacxtions you're going to get now are going to help him decide to walkaway. And later, when he is reinvested, I think this button hasn't been working for you, so you need to "Do Something Different" or "Try A Different Medium" or some other DB strategy to get the result you want, but you can worry about that much later.

I was pretty sure that the issues in our marriage were to be dealt with at a later date. They just surfaced last night when I was upset and I tend to forget the negative now and only remember the good.

It happens to all of us. Managing our emotions is key, but VERY HARD. Don't dwell on it. Pick yourself up, dust yourself off, and get back to work girlfriend.

Leaving the message to me was a sign of change. In the past I would have taken the call and fought or been a b**ch. So by me not taking it and admitting it is something he did notice and said he appreciated it. I know in some cases I should just let it go but I felt in this case it was good for me to do this. Yes, value I think! I am one to work it out now my H is one to ignore and leave and not deal. This is why we have had issues in the past.

Ok, good. Sounds like you had a successful DB experiment, and you monitored results and it worked. Put it in your solutions journal, and review it to keep it in your mind. When you are having fights, the three things the DB coaches told me they focus on our frequency, intensity and recovery. So you "pushed a different button" on recovery and you got a positive result! That's what DB is all about! The systematic search for solutions! I would also suggest you review how you fought, and how you slipped into the R talks anayway, and try to come up with some different buttons you can push to avoid going there next time.

The laundry I guess I was trying to do an act of service. I'm not sure that is important to him. I have been known to over do this in our marriage. I guess I'll stop it all together and see it he notices. He says he appreciates it but I don't know if that is true....

I don't think you need to stop it unless you want to. I don't see this as pursuing personally. I see this as a nice gesture that he will likely appreciate it. You can wait for him to ask, and that might be best. And when he does, say "Sure!" with your best PMA. Or you can offer, once: "If you'd like, I'm happy to do your laundry." But leave it at that. Whether he says yes or no, it doesn't matter. Just be happy cheerful you and go with the flow either way. It is as simple as that.

Thank you, Thank you, Thank you, you are such help for me.

You are so welcome sweetie.

Nomopo

[NotAgainPlease]

Again I can't thank you enough. You encourage me so. This is all part of my patience problem. My H is so laid back and I’m a do it now person. In this circumstance it's not a good combo. By the time this is over I hope to have learned to control this if nothing else.

I'm going out now to by a whole case of duct tape since one roll isn't quite doing the trick :}.

I hope all is well with you. I wish I could be help to you as much as you have been to me and others. Although I think you have a pretty good handle on it. Unless you are like me, a better teacher than a student! :o}...

S

[NotAgainPlease]

Nomo,

One more quick thing. My H says well you asked me or you initiated it?? Meaning it wasn't his idea,of course. (dinner at the house wiyh kids, laundry or sex (tho sometimes sex is him, more denial) or whatever.) Is that okay or should I wait for him to initiate something?? Maybe I shouldn't do it so much?? Weekly?? Not evo day or so??
Thanks,
S

[Nomopo]

You know what, I think I would give him some space for a while. Let's see what he does for a few weeks (two or three at least). Give him a chance to step up. You haven't tried this yet, have you? While you are trying this, monitor results. See how he is acting. Make some notice about the results. We can re-evaluate in three weeks or a month.

If he asks, you need to convey that you are perfectly fine with going either way on whatever it is. So, for example, if he says "I was thinking about coming over for dinner with the kids," you can say, "that would be great. They'd love to see you." If he then says, "well, I'm not really sure I can make it tonight," then you go with "it's up to you. Either way is fine." And then move back to whatever you were doing. Keep it short and sweet, and don't forget the sweet part, but you're following his lead.

Wouldn't it be nice if he asked you to do laundry or asked to come for dinner or whatever? Make this a short-term relationship goal and let's see if it gets achived in the next 2 -3 weeks. This might be the "first sign" that things are inmproving, and ifg they do we can concludce he needed the space, meaning not to be pushed. And if it doesn't work, we'll re-evaluate and maybe try another approach.

I like this because he has aksed you for Time and Space. Give it to him. Let the tension diffuse a bit.

Nomopo

[NotAgainPlease]

Great idea! It's funny because last weekend kids called and asked if H wanted to come to the lake. He asked to talk to me. He asked if it was the kids idea or mine. I said the kids he said if you don't want me to go I said all right. Thought it was funny he said that. I said we did things together on the boat and it was the kids idea and you didn't want me to go. So we hung up and I felt bad so I called back and said I wanted him to go and he said thank you that was nice. I am learning he wants evrything opposite than the way he wanted or treated me..interesting. So Im gonna give him his space!!! This may just help. Only one way to see and that's try it.

I am such a control freak....I am learning so much ( at least trying) from all of this. If nothing,I hope
I will be a better person.

He's picking up his laundry tonight. The 4th is my day with the kids..I will let it come and go without asking him to join. If he does, then I will say he can join ONLY, if he basically invites himself :o}...

Thanks,
S

[NotAgainPlease]

Okay so much for that. He came over to get his laundry and was really nice. He came into the bedroom and sat on the bed and was just talking to me. He was just sitting there; the kids were in the other room. I kept thinking to myself this was different. He usually doesn't come in here. I don't even know why he came in there..in the beginning anyway. We talked then I sat down on the bed too. One thing led to another and ??? This was not my idea nor did I initiate it..That is supposed to be my new goal not to. Remember. Didn't take him long..I did say I'm sorry but I love you and he gave me a big hug and said I know you do..I know I wasn't supposed to do it but it just came out. I haven't just said it like that in soo long..
So the kids asked him tonight what he was going to do for the 4th. He said what are you doing they said we didn't know yet. He was kind of making excuses, like had to work?? He's self emp. and he was invited to a few parties. I said no big deal we will find something to do we have been invited a few places too. Poor kids they don't get it well either does Dad for that matter.
Well I (we) are not bringing it up again. He knows there was an invitation... If it was up to me I wasn't going to ask but the kids did so there went that. That's okay it didn't come from me.

[Nomopo]

Okay so much for that.

Why do you say that? Didn't sound too bad to me.

He came over to get his laundry and was really nice.

Good.

He came into the bedroom and sat on the bed and was just talking to me. He was just sitting there; the kids were in the other room. I kept thinking to myself this was different. He usually doesn't come in here. I don't even know why he came in there..in the beginning anyway.

Ok, so he is doing something different. So far, so good.

We talked then I sat down on the bed too. One thing led to another and ???

Ok, so who initiated? If it was him, and you are comfortable being intimate (which I think you said you were), then this fell within your plan. If you initiated, ok - learn from it, and get back on your plan. Don't beat yourself up.

This was not my idea nor did I initiate it..That is supposed to be my new goal not to. Remember.

So great. You followed you plan. What's the problem?

Didn't take him long..I did say I'm sorry but I love you and he gave me a big hug and said I know you do..I know I wasn't supposed to do it but it just came out. I haven't just said it like that in soo long..

Ok, no biggie. Minor backslide. Try not to do it again until he does. (Why'd did you say sorry? Were you telling him sorry for what I am about to say?)

So the kids asked him tonight what he was going to do for the 4th. He said what are you doing they said we didn't know yet. He was kind of making excuses, like had to work?? He's self emp. and he was invited to a few parties. I said no big deal we will find something to do we have been invited a few places too.

Great - you followed your plan here too!

Well I (we) are not bringing it up again. He knows there was an invitation... If it was up to me I wasn't going to ask but the kids did so there went that. That's okay it didn't come from me.

It's fine. You did good. We'll see what he decides. And in tghe meantime, start monitoring results. Watch him these next few days and see if you not initiating has any effect (positive or negative).

Nomopo

[NotAgainPlease]

As always. Thank you!!

No, I didn't initiate it but I think you said that. Yes I said sorry because I was going to say I love you. It was sweet though because he grabbed my face & hugged me. So I don't think it really bothered him..
Yep, I'll see what happens the next few days. Really no reason to talk tomorrow or Weds. for that matter. If he does that's fine but NOT MEEE! Gotta keep telling myself that.
S

[Nomopo]

That's right S! Stick to your plan! You're DBing big time now.

[NotAgainPlease]

:o}

[imLIN]

How old are your kids?...I ask because if they are old enough to understand the whole MLC thing...it is good to share the information here with them...but not actually showing them this sight...I printed out the MLC script...or something like that...it really helped my D understand why her dad was acting out like he was...she was angry with him so by sharing this it helped...for my other D who wasn't angry but more confused it helped her also...just an idea if you haven't done so already..

Also...since your kids like to talk to their dad so much and you are trying to go dark a bit...you might explain to them your plan...I did this...it helped my kids understand that I wasn't rejecting their father but that certain things that I would do or not do would hopefully bring about desired responses from him...

As for the "sorry I love you"...I think sometimes, when things are starting to go well it is good to remind them...even if they haven't forgotten...it is good for them to know they are still wanted...I did make it clear to my H when he began coming home that while I "wanted" him...I didn't "need" him...and I also wanted him emotionally healthy and happy...I think this wording, for my H anyway, helped take the pressure off of him...I made sure he knew I was going to be OK either way...but that I did indeed love him and wanted him home...but I didn't want things to be like they were...he was not happy, obviously because he left, and I was not happy with many things but didn't do anything to change them...our NEW marriage would have to be different...better...

I think things sound positive...my H held pretty tight to "I can never live with you again" "You haven't changed, it is who you are" "I can't handle the emotions of a relationship with anyone, especially you"...he pretty much kept up this front until weeks before actually coming home...and he was quite convincing...I think inside he wanted to come home...but was afraid...he needed time...and until he had that time he couldn't tell me what he was thinking because he would feel pressured to act...so it was easier for him to keep saying he couldn't do it...then it was to admit he was at least thinking about coming home...

So just hold your course...there will be tests...there will be doubts on your part...but just keep doing the DB'ing...GAL...and if he doesn't make a move for the 4th to be with the family...make sure you and the kids are gone to some fun thing...this will show him that "life goes on" without him, even for the kids...and make sure you tell the kids not to call him...to give him his space at least for that day...

Take care....Lin

[Nomopo]

Really good post Lin!

I especially like this insight:

I think things sound positive...my H held pretty tight to "I can never live with you again" "You haven't changed, it is who you are" "I can't handle the emotions of a relationship with anyone, especially you"...he pretty much kept up this front until weeks before actually coming home...and he was quite convincing...I think inside he wanted to come home...but was afraid...he needed time...and until he had that time he couldn't tell me what he was thinking because he would feel pressured to act...so it was easier for him to keep saying he couldn't do it...then it was to admit he was at least thinking about coming home...

So just hold your course...there will be tests...there will be doubts on your part...but just keep doing the DB'ing...GAL

Nomopo