Crushed but moving on

[swashy]

last one locked.

http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubb...&gonew=1#UNREAD

Gonna go grab some ice cream with the kiddos. yay!

[swashy]

Ok…well I had my vent session last night. I think tonight I talk about me and my mistakes. I think Dana inspired me to become more introspective.

I am a big part of the reason I am in the position I am. I took my W for granted. I took my M for granted. I took my vows for granted. I took my children for granted. I thought that a M was forever and I never really worked on keeping it whole. I was too focused on the other parts of life and didn’t focus on us. We had 3 kids in 2 ½ years and that was really, really hard. I couldn’t deal with it all. I became miserable. And that was ME…and although I didn’t understand it at the time…that was my choice. I chose to be like that. Nobody forced me to be like that. Was she giving me what I needed…no…but that was no excuse to act the way I did. I acted like a brat. Youngest child – right? Ugh.

My anger was a big part of it. I’ve learned a lot about myself and that helps control it..but I need to do more. I think I may have found a new C, need to give her a call. I need to make sure I can control it and that it doesn’t come back.

I yelled a lot…a real lot. I was just angry at the world. I didn’t pay enough attention to the little details in life…holidays, gifts, etc. I told her I wanted a date night. I knew I couldn’t focus on her in this house with three kids running around. I wanted alone time with her so that I could focus on her. But then I would blame her for not following through and setting it up. Well I should have done it if it was what I wanted. I could have controlled that but instead I played the victim.

I wish she could forgive me for this…but I just have to accept that she can’t. I have to accept that I did too much damage to ever fix this. The hurt is too deep. The scars are too big. She just can’t look at me with love again. And that sucks….but it is a situation I helped create with my choices. My mistakes.

The way I acted was undeserving of love and attention. Why would she have loved me? How could she have loved me?!?! I was being a jerk! I mean a serious jerk. How do you love a guy who is yelling and carrying on like I was? I was just so unhappy and I took it out on her and our kids.

Have I changed? Of course I have. Do I get it? I think so. Am I ready to love and be loved again, yes. Is it too late with her….apparently. And that just sucks but it is my cross to carry. Am I totally to blame? Of course not. But I have my fair share of it and now I just need to accept that it is too little too late.

At her heart she is a wonderful woman who just wanted to be loved. I screwed that up.

She texted me tonight. She had her final. Thought she failed out…but it looks like she made it by the hair of her chin. Thank God! Told her I was proud of her. I am. She has done an amazing job of getting through school with all that has gone on. She is a smart, determined woman. And any man would be lucky to have her. I was lucky to have her and I f’d it up. Well now the OM will be lucky to have her. I hope he can take better care of her than I did because she deserves it.

I now need to move on with my life with these lessons learned. Whoever the next woman in my life is WILL be a lucky one…because I have learned these lessons.

I'm ok everyone...just needed to do this I guess. Part of moving on.

[sofaraway]

OK Scott, here we go buddy:

You were responsible for the deterioration of your marriage. You have admitted over and over the mistakes that you made in your relationship. There is only so much ownership that you can take though.

Reality is this took two people to destroy. There is no stronger vow than marriage, you BOTH broke that vow by not honoring, cherishing, and loving one another the way that you should have.

Here's some facts:

1. Scott was an angry man. He yelled, screamed, got angry, punched walls, etc.....

2. Scott did not focus enough on his marriage, he thought it would all just work out so he didnt put in the neccesary efforts that he now knows he should have.

3. Scott was inattentive to his wife, he blamed it on her coldness and not being there for him.

4. Scott took his kids for granted and was not a great dad.

5. Last but not least, Scott wiated to long to address the issues contained in his bad marriage.

All 5 of these items are one's that you have admitted to all along and worked very hard to improve. Is it to late for your changes to affect your marriage? You are going to hate this answer, but Yes, it is because your wife has made it apparent that she cannot find love for you in her heart again. She has continued to see this other man, and probably still is.

Did these 5 things destroy your marriage, yes, but so did some other things. Best I can figure these things did as well.

1. Wife didnt talk to you and be open about her needs.

2. Wife did not focus enough on her marriage, she thought it would all just work out so she didnt put in the neccesary efforts that she now knows she should have. (sound familiar)

3. Wife was not a good mother to her kids. She did not stand up early on and do what was right for them, her, and you.

4. Wife strayed from her marriage, began a relationship with an unethical fireman while she was still betrothed to you. (any way you slice this, it's just wrong)

5. Wife did not give you what you needed, even though you were an as$, she still gave up.


So I wonder if she has admitted to these issues that she needs to own or not. I am sure that she is focusing on all that YOU did wrong, but reality is at some point she will have to take some ownership of what SHE did wrong as well.

So now what my friend, reality says that your marriage is over. She is getting mediation, your house is sold, and y'all are moving away from each other. So what happens now. Well, Scott keeps working on himself, let's go of his mistakes, realizes that the next woman in his life will reap the rewards of his failed marriage and all that he has learned.


Hopefully your wife will do the same, the only issue I see there is that she has one thing to deal with that you don't, infidelity. That is a hard one to overcome because bottom line is that she strayed, she went to the arms of another man, she dishonored her commitment. Hold your head up high my friend in at the very least, the knowledge that you can look yourself in the eye and know that your morals in that arena of yoru marriage are intact. She will never, get that word, NEVER ever again be able to say she was faithful and moral during her marriage, and yes, even if they were just friends, they kissed, held hands, slept together, immoral.

The fact that it continues and she couldnt even finish things with you and get that divorce, speaks volumes for her moral fiber here at theh end of your marriage. Sorry, but I have very strong feelings about this and it is disrespectful, especially when they sit there and judge you and your behavior in the past while they are acting this way and doing these things. It is judgmental and self serving to justify their own piss poor decisions.

So what is the bottom line? It's one you already know buddy, your marriage dissolution is a result of TWO peoples actions. Take on your mistakes, but also remember to acknowledge hers as well. Odds are when she talks to her friends about this, it is all about you and her ownership is never discussed. At least that is how it is withh my wife an dmost of the other wives on these boards, pitiful. This my friend is why friendship after marriage is so damn hard, because you know, and will learn as it ends, that she blames you....and only you. Hopefully she will take her ownership someday so that y'all can at least have a working relationship with the kids.

You hang in there my friend, the greatest gift you have right now is the knowledge that you will be ok without her and you have done the most important thing here, you have learned from your errors how to be a better partner in the future. Some woman will be very happy because of all this misfortune. Just to damn bad your wife doesnt wake the fuckk up and realize it could have been her that reaped the rewards, oh well.

I am here if you need me buddy, at least until I leave for Scotland Friday.


Ian

[galing]

Ian... good post.

[NDDT]

hey swashinator remember the old beer commercials?

"I love you man........."

I hope everything goes great for you.......sorry I am a bit drunk.
cant post well..........sheeet cant even read well. But the only thing we have left is the future right? My future is gonna be all right now matter what. No matter what Ms "Its too late" says.....

lol I needta go to bed..........If you lived next door to me tonight, I would be the idiot out on your porch yelling, "I love you man.........." LOL

[Fender]

G'morning Swashy. Have good one.

[swashy]

Thanks guys.

Ian - I posted my vent a couple of days ago. So I figured I'd own up to my half yesterday. I know you know it. I know she knows it. And I've talked about some of it here on and off...but I don't think I've ever really layed it out like that on here before.

I don't want to point fingers. That gets me nowhere. Was her affair any worse than my yelling? I don't know. Maybe...maybe not. But at this point, it doesn't really matter.

I think I just needed to vent those things as part of my process of moving forward. I don't want to be angry with her and I hope she can let go of some of the anger she has for me. I hope we can be friends and coparent together. I want to accept this reality that is staring me in the face with a smile and the knowledge that I will be ok...or even better.

We talked a bit this morning. It was very light and fun. That is what I want. I want that tension gone. So that is what I will strive to have with her...hopefully she can do the same.

I'll also continue doing what I need to do for me. I will start moving some of my stuff into the new place this weekend. It is mine as of 7/1. We close 7/9. We'll pay off all of our debt. Split what is left and I will be on my way.

I think I do want to pursue whatever this may be with my new/old "friend". She's fun, smart, pretty and makes me feel good. Is it a re-bound? Maybe. Will it lead to anything...maybe, maybe not. But you know what...it makes me feel good right now and I think I deserve that at this point.

[Kman]

Hey Scott-

You seem to have your head on fairly straight, I had planned to post a readers digest version of what Ian posted to you last night, but after he put it up I think the point was made. By the way, one thing I DID want to add:

Was her affair any worse than my yelling?

Ummm...F-CK YES IT WAS.

Sorry, just feel pretty strongly about that one. Keep your head up buddy, you're doing great and you have great things ahead.

Kev

[swashy]

Because you guys were not the ones being yelled at for years and years. Again..not saying it is or isn't. Just saying you don't know until you are in those shoes. Let's put it this way, I'm willing to forgive the A and move forward but she is unable to move forward from the yelling. And I refuse to think that she doesn't WANT to save her M. I beleive she does...this isn't easy for her to do. How could it be? She is dealing with a lot of guilt for it - i know that. So the hurt must be pretty damn bad. I did a lot of damage.

[sofaraway]

I think I do want to pursue whatever this may be with my new/old "friend". She's fun, smart, pretty and makes me feel good. Is it a re-bound? Maybe. Will it lead to anything...maybe, maybe not. But you know what...it makes me feel good right now and I think I deserve that at this point.

Good, because you deserve that. Take some lessons from Speed on how to communicate with this new woman and make sure she understands clearly where your head is at in order to minimize the possibility of hurting her.

I agree with Kev, you don't know if it was worse, ummm hell yeah it was. Infidelity my friend is a sin.

The one thing that I worry about with you Scott is that you take on way to much responsibility for all that has happened. That makes you make statements like this:

I hope we can be friends and coparent together.

You can become good coparents together, I have no doubt. Friends though???? Let me ask you flat out, if she continues to date fireman dude and ends up in a commited relationship with him, are you gonna want to be her friend??? Answer this question honestly dude, cause if it were me, ummm fuckk no I wouldn't. Sometime the reality of it all will hit you dude, you will begin to get angry with her and feel all that you should be feeling regarding this infidelity. At that point firendship will probably be out the window.

So many folks on here get confused about this, so here it is in bold for you. you as the LBS have no obligation to be friends with a person who walks away and does not try to fix your marriage. That's the bottom line, I personally refuse to reward my wife's indescretions by being her friend when all is said and done. I will coparent with her, but that is it. I do not have friends that lie and cheat and sin...sorry I have to have some boundaries.

Just understand that while you have thoughts of how and who you want to be, it doe not mean that you have to turn into a saint that can turn the other cheek and continue to get slapped. You are mortal, man, and you have the right to choose to stop being hurt.

Urghhhhh, not for nothing, but one of my other dillema's with thsi whole friend thing is what lesson does it teach our kids? Do you think later on your kids won't know what she did. When they get old enough, they will figure it out. Then they will look and see that you were ok with it because you were willing to befriend her after that.... Not sure that's the lesson your kids need. They may need the lesson of choice, choosing to surround yourself with moral people and have friends that you can trust.

Just some thoughts dude, I'm not trying to harp on you here. I just want you to see that it's ok to not be perfect and think you have to be this all loving, all forgiving person, that's not realistic. It's ok to feel. Truth is if you are going to be friends, it may be many years down the road.

Ian

[swashy]

Unconditional love Ian. That is what I wrote in my letter and this what I will deliver. Together or apart. If she continues with OM (which I get the feeling she is), I will just need to accept that. Just as she will need to accept me moving on with someone else. What's done is done. Getting angry and resentful does me NO good.

And you know what Ian...I think rising above all of this and reacting with love instead of anger is a wonderful lesson for my kids.

Do I think she has made some horrible choices? Of course. But I don't need to hold them over her head either. Just as I would hope that she wouldn't hold my past mistakes over my head. I don't see how doing that helps either of us.

[Kman]

Hey Scott-
Don't get me wrong - I am a firm believer in that (for most of us) it took both the WAS and the LBS to create a bad marriage - no argument there. So sure, if you were an angry person for many years, that was something you contributed to the demise of the M. But HER fault in that (in this particular instance) was not addressing it and making a stronger stand to you on correcting that behavior. How do you fix something if you don't realize it's broken? That's how most of us got here.

However, it was her CHOICE to go outside the marriage and go against her vows, promises, etc. as a means of escaping the problem. We're all adults and in control of our actions, that includes your W.

So I guess my point is, yes - you AND W had to work TOGETHER to create this M, as well as to allow it to get it where it is today. But after a certain point, she made certain CHOICES that fall on her and her alone. the A is one of those things, and I just don't believe there's anything that justifies it.

Kev

[sofaraway]

Unconditional love Ian. That is what I wrote in my letter and this what I will deliver. Together or apart. If she continues with OM (which I get the feeling she is), I will just need to accept that. Just as she will need to accept me moving on with someone else. What's done is done. Getting angry and resentful does me NO good.

And you know what Ian...I think rising above all of this and reacting with love instead of anger is a wonderful lesson for my kids.

Do I think she has made some horrible choices? Of course. But I don't need to hold them over her head either. Just as I would hope that she wouldn't hold my past mistakes over my head. I don't see how doing that helps either of us.

Understood, but unconditional love does not mean DOORMAT, or not feeling hurt, anger, and pain.

What unconditional love means is being strong enough to let them go. To let them go and not have to feel the need to "be there for them".

You know what, I wonder about your self esteem sometimes. You post all this stuff, but I wonder wether you are more important to you or she is?

I am not telling you to hate her or resent her, it's not black and white. You can be loving without being there. Supporting bad behavior is not being unconditionally loving. In fact, unconditional love means that you are not afraid to treat her the way she deserves to be treated for her choices.

We will probably not agree on this right now because you are in the middle of it and I am on the outside looking in. I have already told you that I will be here for you no matter what you decide to do. But damn it, I will sure as hell not stand by and not tell you my feelings on it whether you agree with them or not. Do you know why? Becuase I do love you unconditionally.

Ian

[swashy]

Kev, understood...but my anger and my behavior was also MY CHOICE. We both made poor choices.


Ian - I'm not saying that I'm going to sit here like a puppy dog. What I'm saying is that, I will not let her choices make me angry any more. I want to be detached and rise above it. If she wants to continue on with OM...that is her choice. I refuse to let that make me angry. I'm tired of being angry. She can do whatever she wants to do. Not my problem. I will still treat her with love because that is how I want to treat her.

I'm also not saying that I will stuff my true feeling down in a hole somewhere. I fully realize that I will go through times of saddness and probably anger. How could I not? I just don't want those emotions running MY life anymore. I've had enough of that. I know I have a right to be angry, I know I have a right to be sad....but I just don't want to be. I want to live my life with love and acceptance. If she needs to divorce me, I'll accept that. If she needs to run off with OM, I will accept that. I'm not going to try and control her and tell her what she is doing wrong. She is a big girl and if she makes poor choices, she will sooner or later have to face those choices. You can't run away from yourself. But I do not need to shove her nose in it. Because I know I don't need her shoving my nose in poor choices.

[swashy]

If Tyson, Ian, Kev, Julie, Shoe, or I lied to you day in and out, with both of us knowing full well we were lying, and if we manipulated you and blamed you every day for all of our failings, would you talk to us as much as you do?

Yes because I love you guys. I know that sounds crazy but I know you are all good people at heart and I would want to answer that behavior with love.

Something you and Ian both sent home for me when I had my little meltdown two weeks ago . . . ask yourself:

What kind of friendship, in comparison with your other friends, do you really have?

Honestly? Not much. But it will not get any better if I treat her with anger and resentment.

[Kman]

Scott-

You're right when you say that you don't want to hold stuff over each other's heads forever, because what's the point. But here's the thing. The stuff that got your M to where it was was UNINTENTIONAL. Obviously when we get married we don't INTEND for it to end in divorce, so the mistakes we make are just that - mistakes.

In my case, one of my mistakes was bottling up how I felt too much - I've always been somewhat of a private person, one who "holds his cards close to his chest." I didn't want to bother others with my problems, and figured I'd deal with them myself. I didn't realize that it was also shutting my W out and adding to our communication problems. BUT...she did plenty to contribute to the problems as well. The difference is that I've acknowledged my responsibility in it and am trying to work on those things. She really hasn't tried to do that at this point.

Now, here's the key thing. there are things that unintentionally bring about the demise of an M, over time. But an affair, is a CONSCIOUS CHOICE. In addition, choosing to give up on the marriage is a CONSCIOUS CHOICE. She hasn't given you a say in these things, although certainly they've affected or involve you. This releases you from certain obligations my friend. Treat her as the mother of your children and as any decent person would treat another, but she doesn't deserve much more than that, IMO.

My point is that I don't believe that something like, for instance, your anger and yelling was a CHOICE; it's simply who you were at that time. You identified that as something or someone you didn't want to be, and worked pretty successfully to change and improve that part of you.

But when it comes to things that are truly conscious choices, i.e. "I don't want to work on this marriage any more," it's not forgiveable, and as Cori said, it's not what friends, much less spouses, do to one another.

Don't hold anger towards her; that's something you don't deserve to do to yourself. But your true friendship is not something SHE deserves either.

[sofaraway]

I'm gonna finish with this post and then I am done with this convo for a while. It needs time to sink in.

No one is telling you to hate her or do mean things. That is not my point.

Every decision you make about relationships, with a woman, a friend, family, enemy, is driven by emotions. You make your decisions based on those emotions. It is not allowing emotion to run your life, it is using emotions to help you make choices.

I clearl understand how you work with all that we have been through together. I can clearly see that you are going on a I am a better person that that kick right now to keep from going off, I respect that. Bottom line though, tell yourself all you want that you won't hold stuff over her, you will. You will remember what she has done, just as she remembers what you did. It's just reality.

Just try not to wrap yourself up to much in having to be perfect scott, your not. Deal with it. You, in time, will realize what I am meaning by all of this and understand it better when you are in a different place than you are today.

I will be out of pocket for the next ten days as you know. Take care of yourself while I am gone my friend. You will be in my thoughts and prayers while I am gone.

Ian

[swashy]

Ok guys...really appreciate all the input. I do need to get back to work here. But let me respond.

Speed...yup..sounds like unconditional love to me. I understand I don't need to get any closer that I want. And there may be times I can't emotionally be close to her. I get that. I will still do what is right for me. I don't intend to stand there with a smile on my face while my heart is breaking. If I need to step away, that is what I will do.

Kev...Not sure I agree with you. Her A was something that grew over time and was something she fought pretty hard. I was being a d!ck and she made a new friend...over years that friendship grew into something else. Could she have chosen to stop it and tell me what was going on? Of course. But I do not think it is something she deliberately went out and did. No more than I deliberately went out and acted like d!ck. And I could have chosen to stop my behavior too.

And, btw, you sound a lot like my W. Want her number!?!? HA!

Has she acknowledged her mistakes. A little bit...but not nearly enough. I think she is well aware of them however. At some point she will come to terms with them. Being a private, non confrontation person...I'm not holding my breath for a well thought out apology. I've gotten a couple of "Scott I'm sorry's" over the months...but obviously her actions deserve more than that. I've certainly owned up to mine. To the point where she told me she didn't want to hear it anymore. I would like her to do that so that I can get some closure...but I can't expect that I'll ever get that from her.

[S_O_T_S]

Hi swashy.

So my thoughts of skyrockets in flight are temporarily suspended for a good cause.... As always (you know the drill....)

And you also know that I'm not the type to come in, guns blazing and whacking the 2x4 in all directions. How about some gentle nudges? They seem to help, sometimes, as my friend tgh might attest.

Just saying you don't know until you are in those shoes. Let's put it this way, I'm willing to forgive the A and move forward but she is unable to move forward from the yelling.

Ooooh, boy. Whether this is simply contextual misunderstanding on my part or what, I don't know.

But the phrasing of this seems.... odd?

Forgive the person, not the act.

And you, of course realize that you have absolutely no control over her choice to forgive, or the timetable for it.

And I refuse to think that she doesn't WANT to save her M.

Interesting that you choose this phrasing too, since I literally just had the same conversation w/ someone else about my own refusals. Just believe this. While you may believe this, the reality of what she wants/thinks is completely unknown to you, and may be far different from what you'd like to believe. That said, there can be very good reasons for self-denial like this.... What's yours?

She is dealing with a lot of guilt for it - i know that.

You know what? They seem to get over it pretty fast.... Funny how another dude in the picture can slap a bandaid over a lot of hurt... I know full well my W spent the first 3 days away in her parents house, in bed, bawling her eyes out. She sure as hell wasn't crying over any hurt caused to me, though...

So the hurt must be pretty damn bad. I did a lot of damage.

Or, she allowed her own self-hurt, and old hurts to come out and used the small-medium hurt you inflicted to become the cause of all of it. And of course, she chose not to let you in on any of it. So allowed the damage to happen.

Unconditional love Ian.

And the cost to you will end up being?

Indifference. That's what must be the target here. She is the master of her fate and the captain of her soul. She alone is responsible for her actions, from here on out. You have to treat her as the mother of your kids; civil. Not as friends. Not lovingly.

People who love each other don't do what she has done to you. Neither do people who are friends.

But in both those cases, those same people do get angry at the other person and yell.

Getting angry and resentful does me NO good.

au contraire, mon frere.

Getting angry/resentful does a world of good. Staying angry/resentful, however, does not.

Remember this, anger is a reasonable response to injustice and/or wrongdoing. Not letting go of anger is the unhealthy part.

I think rising above all of this and reacting with love instead of anger is a wonderful lesson for my kids.

Not if they learn it's not OK to be angry.

Not if they think it's acceptable to be a doormat when injustice is perpetrated.

You may intend a noble lesson, but who's to say how they'll receive it? Believe me, I would be a rich man if I had $1 for each lesson my Dad gave me where I actually took away the opposite of what he intended...

But I don't need to hold them over her head either. Just as I would hope that she wouldn't hold my past mistakes over my head. I don't see how doing that helps either of us.

Forgive the person, not the act.

my anger and my behavior was also MY CHOICE.

And you will forgive yourself for your choice, when exactly? I think you have, but sometimes I'm not so sure...

Not my problem. I will still treat her with love because that is how I want to treat her.

Indifference. Maybe love isn't the word you want? How about like?

I understand where you're coming from in all of this, I do. Go back and reread my own words from a few weeks ago. How I couldn't imagine not loving my XW, yada, yada, yada.

But one day I asked myself, why is she WORTH loving anymore? Why should I love someone who doesn't love me right back? There's no basis for love there. Only dependency, or martyrdom or????

I'm not going to try and control her and tell her what she is doing wrong.

And maybe, from her POV, it isn't even wrong at all. Morally bankrupt? Certainly. But it may well be the exact right choice for her, no matter how much we'd like to believe otherwise.

You can't run away from yourself.

No, and she may or may not discover this truth for herself. As I've been telling someone offline... you can lead the horse, but...

Because I know I don't need her shoving my nose in poor choices.

You don't seem to need anyone else to do that one for you, do you? Takes one to know one.

I would want to answer that behavior with love.

Well, I guess everyone has their own line to cross before becoming a spineless doormat. But, as a former spineless doormat, I'd simply say that we are our own worst judges of when we're engaging in spineless doormat-ness.

Honestly? Not much. But it will not get any better if I treat her with anger and resentment.

I didn't realize that complete, unconditional love vs. anger/resentment were the only options here. Are they?

Take care, and if need be, we can continue this live or offline; just remember I'll be dreaming about the skyrockets....

[osu43130]

Scott,
I just deleted a novel I wrote to you and I am starting over.

Not sure I agree with you. Her A was something that grew over time and was something she fought pretty hard.

Guess it is alright for an affair to occur as long as it grows over time and the person that commits adultury fights pretty hard to avoid it from happening....WTF SCOTT Come on now.....

over years that friendship grew into something else

She can explain that one to God.

But I do not think it is something she deliberately went out and did.

Never is but as you said she is a big girl and wheres big girl panties. She knows what is right and wrong. She needs to own up to it and stop with the damn excuses. They are like a$$holes everyone has one some are just bigger than others.

And I could have chosen to stop my behavior too.

And you did and "man'ed up' to your own mistakes as well as took the proper path to correct them. Did she? Come on now.

No as far as you go and the relationship with your XW.

Yes you love her we all love our X's or WAW's to a point. Yes you want a freindship with her. Yes you want to continue to improve that relatioship.

Guess what it has now become a buisness. She is your coworker and you are CO_PARENTING. Not a close friend not a best friend not your Wife. It is all buisness now. You are a great father and your kids will always look up to you for the fight that you put up to save the family and your marriage. But we can not win at everything....(UNLESS YOUR NAME IS BEN... ;)).

You have one several fights just lost the battle for you marriage. You won the most important fights and came out of it with your head held high with no regrets. You are a strong man Scott and you need to keep it that way.

I'll be around slapping people today,
Later,
Ben

[inspiredjulie]

Good morning S2H!

I'm really glad that you are heading in a good direction here.

I think I do want to pursue whatever this may be with my new/old "friend". She's fun, smart, pretty and makes me feel good. Is it a re-bound? Maybe. Will it lead to anything...maybe, maybe not. But you know what...it makes me feel good right now and I think I deserve that at this point.

I'm glad you've found something that makes you feel good. You DO deserve that, absolutely. And like Ian says, the big goal here is to start out w/ great communication w/ her so that no one ends up hurt. Have fun, but always stay upfront w/ her and yourself about your feelings.

I don't want to be angry with her and I hope she can let go of some of the anger she has for me. I hope we can be friends and coparent together.

I think this is a healthy attitude, to hope you can remove the anger from your Rs. But I just want to remind you that even though you have to coparent together and will do an AWESOME job, it isn't always possible to keep that 'friend' context in there. There has been a lot of pain and betrayal. The WASs I know are selfish and egocentric. They might not be deserving of a friendship and I don't want you to keep putting yourself out there for disappointment and hurt from her when you think of her as a friend and she thinks of you as someone who will pick up the slack w/ the kids or whatever. She has guilt now, but give her some time on her own with the debt paid off and her new life. I just want you to realize that it may not be possible to be friends without compromising yourself. There may be times when you have to be tough on her, or call out her actions regarding the kids and that is really difficult to do if you are trying to be friends. Just a reminder that your first responsibility is to your kiddos and any potential friendship might have to take a backseat to their well-being.

That said, doesn't mean you can't work the friendship thing out, especially if you are motivated. But she may not want to be friends either and that is ok. You WILL be fine, you WILL floursih. You're life is going to be great. Good luck w/ the friendship angle. I really hope you're one of the lucky ones that can work that out.

Feel like I'm rambling here so I'm off. But have a great day. You're attitude is really great. You seem happier than you have in a long time and that is something that makes me smile. Take care, S2H. It's your time to shine.

[NDDT]

Good morning swash. Geez you thread got long in a hurry. I read all of it since my somewhat intoxicated post last night.....lots of good advice on here. Its good to have friends!

[swashy]

Lunch! Having a fabulous Burrito btw. Ran out and grabbed my little girl something for her dance recital tonight. YAY.

Ok...so not sure I have time to post to everyone here but let me throw some stuff out there.

Maybe Friend is the wrong term...although I would like that. I guess I will treat her in a friendly manner and if she can continue do the same...great. I say continue because we are friendly to one another. Yet there is a tension...and i do hope that can go away.

And if I am up to the task...I will treat her like a friend. Ask how she is doing, ask about her life, take an interest in her, etc. There may be times where I am unable to do that...and that is ok. I'm certainly not obligated to do that...and she is not currently doing it for me.

Ben - never said her affair was "ok". It is not...not by a long shot. But it happened and there is nothing I can do about that t change it. So I do need to accept it and move on from it. It is just healthier for me not to treat her with resentment. Where does that get me?

The goal is to at least be friendly (currently doing) and maybe someday be friends....yet to be seen. And maybe that can't happen for years. Who knows.

SOTS - I know I will get angry and resentful - how could I not...but you are right...I do not wish to live my life that way. And I see that. I see people who live their lives in missery because they can't let go of the hurt their X did to them. Just not who I want to be.

I have forgiven myself for my actions. I have to...because I have to live with myself and therefore I need to accept myself - the good and the bad. But I also do not want to forget my mistakes because I do not wish to re-live them. And, btw, my kids have seen WAY too much angry.

I'm obviously not going to be a saint and I WILL get angry. But I guess I'd rather aim high so to speak.

I'm sure I'm missing stuff...but kicking this dead horse is making me tired.

[osu43130]

Just sounded like you were accepting her excuses for the A.

Glad you changed your idea about the word friend. In a friendly manner is more appropriate for now at least. Like I said who knows what is going to happen tomorrow. So as long as she is treating you respectful it is your duty to do the same.

You are doing great Scott.

[swashy]

Thanks Ben!

Buddy, I got nothing to add other than, it takes a helluva man to not only wade through that stuff, but also show it to everyone in order to find more errors if they're there. No wonder you make Ty's nipples boingy.

WHAT!?!? Sorry buddy...maybe it is the lack of sleep...but you're confusing the hell out of me on that one.

[swashy]

Aaaight. Got it. Thanks man. I have to say this whole inner mirror, self analysis stuff is something that I was once very good at for a guy. But boy, in my dark days....it was just gone...100% gone. Looking back it is scary how F'd up I was and I couldn't even see it. I wasn't even on my own radar if that makes any sense. I really didn't think anyone gave a flyin' sh!t how I acted...as long as I "did" what I had to do. Little did I know huh? The whole time it was destroying my M and I really had no Fing clue. So sad.

[osu43130]

Scott,
Did the W ever bring that up to you?

If you answer is NO then it is not all your fault. We all get so tied up in everyday routines as parents and husbands that we forget about ourselves and do not see what we are doing wrong and or right. Just becomes a motion and a daily routine.

Get up
Take a shower
Come home
Eat
Go to bed.

Day in and day out not realizing we are neglecting the important aspects of our lives. This is where someone need to just say hey WTF do you think you are doing or please understand what is going on here.

I know from expierience that my STBXW did not say anything and I know I had my own faults that I did not see and if she would have just came out and said it I would have worked through them. But she did and I did not realize. It was the whole communication gap between man and woman I guess.

[swashy]

Nope...not really. A couple of "please don't talk to me that way"'s. And actually pre-bomb her C suggested she do that..and I responded. But what I really needed was a..."We're going to end up Dd if you don't knock this sh!t off!" I just need my eyes opened. Unfortunately what opened my eyes was a cell phone bill...and my W telling me she had fallen in love with another man.

She just wasn't strong enough to do it....partly because I had beaten her down so much.

But yes...I did just get into that cycle of plowing through life...3 kids in 2.5 years was not easy..especially with a depressed W who I unfortunately didn't feel like could really handle our kids...so I was always trying to "be there"...but while I was there I was a jerk.

What can I say...it is what it is. I tried to do it all and made myself misserable and she never woke me up like she should have. BUT...I am still responsible for myself and my own actions in the end.

OK...off to my D's dance recital. Actually just a fun little text back and forth about fast food with the W. I'l catch up with ya'll in the am.

[Rob1231]

Wow, looks like I have missed one hell of a post-a-thon! I'm gonna try to catch up on the convo a bit here, but let me just cut to the chase:

I agree with Scott.

One thing that struck me reading over the above was how many folks posted, in effect, Sure, I was responsible for all the bad stuff in the relationship... right up until my spouse had the affair. That was all HIS/HER choice and I had nothing to do with it. Sorry, gang - I completely understand where that's coming from - but that's wrong. The affair is PART of the relationship too. We helped create the environment - whether it was by neglect, or abuse, or whatever - that led to it. Our spouses didn't get to the point where they looked outside of our marriages without plenty of unwitting help from us.

Yeah, they pulled the trigger and did it. Yeah, that's a really horrible thing. Yeah, it's a sin if you're into that religious interpretation of things. But that choice of theirs was not made in a vacuum. It was made in the context of a marriage that was failing, and by definition we co-created that context with them. In my opinion (take it for what it's worth), we are equally responsible for this, just like every other problem in the relationship.

I think it was that realization that allowed me to really, truly forgive my wife for the affair. And I did - way back before there was any indication that she would give our marriage another chance. In fact, I firmly believe that that forgiveness, at that stage of the game, was the main thing that made my success story possible.

Now, before you jump my sh!t, I want to say that forgiveness does NOT mean saying it's OK that you did that or that didn't hurt me deeply. And it does not mean I'm going to be a doormat, either.

It does mean that I understand my part in what went wrong - EVERYTHING that went wrong - but that I'm not going to hold onto the pain and the resentment and the anger. As Scott says, that's not who I want to be.

My forgiving W also means that I am able to wait while she fixes her own problems, using my best buds Time and Patience. Even today, she's still pretty unhappy and messed up in a lot of ways. She's still waaaaay behind me in some aspects of personal growth and self-understanding. I'm not setting deadlines for her to "get it" and I'm also not saying I can do this forever. But for right now, I choose to continue hanging in there and hoping and helping where I am able.

Scott also talked about unconditional love, and got some feedback about how, yes, he should detach - but, no, he shouldn't do it lovingly. Again, I disagree. Loving detachment is what makes it possible for Scott, when it's all said and done, to look back on all of this and say "I'm sorry things didn't work out as we hoped, but no matter what path you end up taking, I can still be your friend for the sake of what we once felt and for the sake of our kids." That's not being a doormat - that's being one hell of a man.

[sofaraway]

Rob, I will simply ask this one question of you because it is fairly obvious that you and I differ on this subject matter.

Do you believe that the loving detachment should continue on if theh spouse is continuing the relationship with the individual that they had an affair with?


Curious to hear your answer......

Ian

[Jen_Jam]

I agree with Scott and Rob.

Scott - it's amazing you can let go of that anger. I doubt I would be able to step up to that. if my H had had an A I don't think I could be friendly to him ... but I'd like to think I could be. Scott - I admire you can so that, it's very Buddist - letting go of everything you fear to lose. Wow. I admire that.

Now - when you seeing your lady friend next? Let's hear about some of the good in your life.

[Rob1231]

Rob, I will simply ask this one question of you because it is fairly obvious that you and I differ on this subject matter.

We can certainly agree to disagree.

Do you believe that the loving detachment should continue on if theh spouse is continuing the relationship with the individual that they had an affair with?

Well, that's a tough one, alright. Let me give a couple answers - both of which are couched in the language of what I would WANT to be able to do.

First, if W was still with the OM, and I saw that she was happy and moving on to a 'good place' - then yes, I would do my best to let her go with loving detachment.

Second, if W was still with the OM, but I perceived that the affair was the result of her MLC pain, unhappiness and confusion - then yes, I would try to maintain an attitude of loving detachment while working on myself and hoping that she eventually returned from the mothership.

I'm not saying that either of these is easy, or promising that I could get there - but that would be my goal.

[KristyS]

Sorry, but I disagree with your definition of unconditional love.

Unconditional love is a concept that means showing love towards someone regardless of his or her actions or beliefs.

In fact, unconditional love means that you are not afraid to treat her the way she deserves to be treated for her choices.

This sounds more like CONDITIONAL love to me. "In conditional love: love is 'earned' on the basis of conscious or unconscious conditions being met by the lover, whereas in unconditional love, love is 'given freely' to the love one 'no matter what'

You know what, I wonder about your self esteem sometimes

I don't see anything wrong with Scott's self esteem just because he wants to be there for his wife. I think he has shown great strength of character to treat his wife the way he does with everything that she has put him through.

I don't expect for you to agree with me, because you never do, but you should turn the mirror back on yourself. I think some of these things are issues of your own and not Scott's.

[D11912]

Scott,

Just wanted to say hello.

Rainbowlove
----------------
All is here and so much more is coming!

[shoeprincess]

Scott,
I am late to this discussion. I will keep this short and simple.... Whatever you did or however you acted was no reason for your W to go have an affair. . Plain and simple. The WAS's say " WE" pushed them to it. I call BULLSH!t. My STBX got very needy and jealous a few years back cause I worked alot. Did I start to dislike him... YES!... Did I want to leave him.. I thought about it. Did the idea of running into some other guys arms ever cross my mind cause he was being emotionally abusive?? NO! DID I choose to stay in my marriage and voice to him what I felt. YES... I made a choice to do the right thing unlike our WAS's.
Scott you are a wonderful man. Smart, funny, handsome, caring, sweet, kind, gasey Please dont sell yourself short.
ok. done. caring on...

luv ya !!!

[sofaraway]

Sorry, but I disagree with your definition of unconditional love.

Unconditional love is a concept that means showing love towards someone regardless of his or her actions or beliefs.

In fact, unconditional love means that you are not afraid to treat her the way she deserves to be treated for her choices.

This sounds more like CONDITIONAL love to me. "In conditional love: love is 'earned' on the basis of conscious or unconscious conditions being met by the lover, whereas in unconditional love, love is 'given freely' to the love one 'no matter what'

You know what, I wonder about your self esteem sometimes

I don't see anything wrong with Scott's self esteem just because he wants to be there for his wife. I think he has shown great strength of character to treat his wife the way he does with everything that she has put him through.

I don't expect for you to agree with me, because you never do, but you should turn the mirror back on yourself. I think some of these things are issues of your own and not Scott's.

You right, I won't agree with you at all and am quite surprised you had the cahonas to post back at me, I'm shocked by you. Of course the shot about turning it back on myself was uncalled for, but I expect no less from you Kristy as you still resent my honesty with you. SO.. anyway.....

You completely missed the point Kristy, as usual because you get defensive anytime anyone differs from you. Unconditional love does mean that you accept their faults, it also means that you love them enough to be honest and real with them. If you are mad, you express anger (in an acceptable form, not yelling or screaming), if you are sad, you tell them, if you are happy, you tell them. My point to Scott on this, which HE completely got was that unconditional love does not mean that you sacrifice your own well being. If you had bothered to really read Kristy you would have seen that.

Secondly, Swashy and I have a very close relationship. He knows damn well that he has some self esteem issues when it comes to his wife and being without her. Again, you stick your fuckingg nose in where you do not understand and tell me to point it back on me. Wrong again kristy, my self esteem is just fine. I won't even go into yours because we all know where it stands now don't we.

The one thing that you should know after all these months is that Swashy and I have a very special relationship. That relationship is built on trust and honesty with one another. We both depend on one another to bring to light the way that we feel about each others posts. If Swashy had issue with my posts he would have told me so. He didnt, you did. Again sticking your nose where it does not belong. Shocker.

I kind of thought that you and I had an understanding to not post to one another and I have respected that. I would appreciate if you would do the same for me as we so obviously do not process thought the same way. I don't really give a sh^t if you dispute my opinions, but don't turn it back on me and not expect me to respond. You haven't earned the right to analyze me Kristy.......fair enough.....

Now back to Swashy........sorry for the interuption bud, and you can yell at me for this post later........


Ian

[osu43130]

Ian,

Do you believe that the loving detachment should continue on if theh spouse is continuing the relationship with the individual that they had an affair with?

O.K. I want to chime in on this one because I am going through this right now as well.

As far as lovingly detatching I think it is the best way to go in every and all sitch's no matter what is going on especially if there are kids involved. I say this for the following reasons.

1) The kids need to see that their parents can always settle their difference and get along. The differences need to be put aside when their are kids involved because they have already dealt with enough sh!t as it is and if there parents go through the rest of their lives hating each other they will learn from our examples that it is alright to hate when some one wrongs you.

2) Lovingly detatching helps you deal with the problem at hand in a more rational manner. Why always continue to fight about the same old crap. Yes the STBXW and I have our differeing opinions on our morals and my sitch is far different than anyone's that I have read on here but in the same sense I deal with the same sh!t as everyone else. I CHOSE TO TRY AND HANDLE IT IN A FIRM BUT LOVINGLY MANNER. And for that it confuses people on here and they get the assumption that I am going to reconcile with my W.

Is it easy to lovingly detatch? Hell No. Is it the right thing to do? I do not know I guess to each his own, but in my opinion which might not mean much to many people anymore. I feel that is the person that I want to be and the person I want I want my kids to grow up and say hey I want to be like that guy. He went through all of this crap and was able to come out on top and save his future by gaining control and letting go of the anger and resent ment when it did not seem possible.

Now I am not saying I am friends with my STBXW or am I an enemy either. I am more indifferent than anything else.

Just my 2 cents.

[sofaraway]

Morning Swashy.

Now that my rant is out of the way, and I apologize again for it being on your thread, lets get back to you a bit.

First off, for everyone to see right off the bat, I support you no matter what you decide to do, you know this.

Here's my thing, I just don't want to watch you hurt at all because you choose this method. So in accepting your choice to be "unconditionally loving" I want to know what you are going to work on for yourself in order to protect you from some of the personal hurts that go along with that. Because they do come buddy, I know you will accept them, but what are you doing to make that a process that you know ahead of time?

Rob is right, this choice that you have made is a very difficult one and requires incredible strength. Have yours ready, and have people that you can turn to to help prop you up as you fall a bit. You know I will always be there for you.....

Anyway, I will miss you my friend. I will miss our daily talks something fierce while I am gone. I hope that the next ten days are peaceful and quiet for you buddy.

Ben, good post, and I think you understood what I was trying to say about accountability as well. You have been a master lately at this stuff.

Ian

[swashy]

WOW! Things got good while I was away.

Ok...first off, lets talk about this little spat. Knock it off! Ian, I think you took what was some constructive critisism as an insult because of the source and used that as an opporunity to go off. And I do agree with Kristy's definition - not Ian's and Ian and I have talked about that. What it comes down to is, if I was in a committed R with her and she wanted my advice, etc...then yes I would have the responsibility to raise these issues. However, we are not and she does not...so it does no good to raise them. Anything I suggest she would just run in the opposite direction anyway...so it only harms her more.

Rob and Jen...thank you! Jen...my "friend's" friend that we went out with has actually invited to dinner tomorrow night...interesting. Rob, I guess the one difference is that I'm not doing this to save my M anymore. I'm doing this for me. I need to prove to myself (thank you Cori!) that I can meet obsticales in life with love instead of anger. This is for me. I will not allow her poor choices hurt me anymore. She can make all the poor choices she wants. The more she makes the more it makes me realize that I do not want to spend my life with her...but I refuse to be angry with her for her poor choices...those are her's to make.

And Ian asked the question he asked because she IS with him and will be with him. "I will not leave you for him" was just another lie. She may tell herself that she is leaving me because of issues in our M...but the fact is, he is still the carrot waiting on the other side. And it may work out for them. I believe in my W enough that I am fairly certain that he is probably a good guy. Immoral for messing around with an M woman and ripping my kids lives apart...but I'm sure he treats her well. Will they have issues? Of course, all Rs have issues. The shame I see is that at least we know our issues...she'll have to learn new issues with him and risk failing again. What will happen if and when they do have issues and she decides to stray again. Will he stand by her and treat her with unconditional love...odds are no. But that is for her to learn.

I just need to focus on doing what is right for me right now and that is to stay this loving, caring guy that I have fought so hard to become. Her choices sting...no doubt. But I need to stay strong and let it go. (in my opinion that is only something that someone with a very strong self-esteem could do!...IAN!)

SO....last night was my Ds dance recital. SO DAMN CUTE! I was very, very proud of her. Her parents backed out for some reason...could be because they didn't want to face my parents...maybe. Anyway...I had so much fun watching her. I actually started to cry during her 2nd performance...I love that little girl so much.

But we had a good night as a family...it was fun. One thing that struck me. On her way there...she got lost. She called me. I was on the phone with Ty and didn't realize she was trying to reach me. I looked down and had 4 missed calls...quickly called her and she was lost....running late and freaking out. I tried to calm her down, find out where she was and tell her how to get there. The recital was in a town 15 minutes north of us...pretty snotty town....well she started going off on "I hate this town. I hate the people in this town. All driving their huge SUVs" I just laughed at it...it was kind of funny. But then I looked back on it and thought...just one more instance where she has to find someone else to blame. There was nobody else to blame...she left the directions at home and she got lost...so she blamed the whole town! It's all about ownership. LOL. I do hope that she can learn that lesson someday and stop playing the victim.

[swashy]

Great post Ben..thank you! Very well said. Again...I will be her friend and treat her in a friendly manner...but we can't be friends until she treats me as a friend.

Ian buddy...I know you are there for me 110% and will alwasy respect my decisions as what are right for ME. I also know that you will always make sure I look at every decision from every possible angle to make sure I am doing just that. You're a wonderful friend and I will also miss you tremendously over the next 10 days. PLEASE enjoy your trip, have fun and do for YOU!

Thanks everyone!!!

[osu43130]

Scott,

I also want to add to Cori's post. DO NOT LET YOUR LOVE FOR YOUR XW CLOUD YOUR JUDGMENT OR YOUR PATH.

That is the toughest part of all of this. It is so easy to become a doormat when we try to lovingly detatch that is where the firm stand comes in. Just be firm and fair that is all you can do.

As well as continue to treat her as you would want to be treated even if she is not doing it. This is the part where your kids will learn and strive.

[swashy]

Thanks guys.

Ben - "DO NOT LET YOUR LOVE FOR YOUR XW CLOUD YOUR JUDGMENT OR YOUR PATH." Yup...this will be hard to do....no doubt...really hard. Ugh. And by the way buddy..not XW...yet. She is scheduling mediation and I'm accepting the reality.

[osu43130]

Sorry Scot hat just kind of came out. Thinking of my sitch and the things that I am dealing with I kind of just start to type.

But you got the point.

If you need anything brother just let me know.

[swashy]

Thanks man. You are right and thank you for pointing it out...that is the trick I guess.

[Rob1231]

Rob, I guess the one difference is that I'm not doing this to save my M anymore. I'm doing this for me. I need to prove to myself (thank you Cori!) that I can meet obsticales in life with love instead of anger. This is for me. I will not allow her poor choices hurt me anymore. She can make all the poor choices she wants. The more she makes the more it makes me realize that I do not want to spend my life with her...but I refuse to be angry with her for her poor choices...those are her's to make.

If I implied that you should do this exclusively to save your M, I did not mean to. While I think it was an important factor in my own success, I also am a huge believer in the idea that, above all else, Forgiveness is a gift you give yourself.

And Ian asked the question he asked because she IS with him and will be with him. "I will not leave you for him" was just another lie. She may tell herself that she is leaving me because of issues in our M...but the fact is, he is still the carrot waiting on the other side.

I'm sorry to say, that doesn't surprise me much. When my W was pushing hardest for the D and for her moving out, the OM was waiting in the wings. She told herself - and believed it, I think - that this 'safety net' wasn't a big part of her actions. However, when her A imploded, I believe she discovered that she was relying on it much more than she had admitted to herself. Is the same true for your W? Based on my experience - probably.

Does this make things easier? Certainly not.

Does this change what you decide to do? Only you can answer that. How long to keep standing for the M, and when it's time to move on, is something each of us has to decide for ourselves.

[KristyS]

I am not scared of you Ian. I just think that you come across as an angry person. We all have issues on this board that we are dealing with, and I was just giving you my take on things as an outsider. I get the feeling that you think that you can "do no wrong" and that your opinion is always the correct one. It's ok for people to have differing opinions. This is, after all, a public forum.

As far as sticking my nose where it doesn't belong, well, Scott is one of my friends and I care about him. I follow his sitch and give input from time to time. I am not scared to voice my opinion. Also, I was not getting defensive, just offering my opinion. Your post, however, was very defensive. As far as self esteem, everyone on this board has some sort of self esteem issue from one time or another, so for you to say that you don't have that issue is just you being defensive. Ian, I think that sometimes you should take your own advice.

Oh, and I did read your posts. I REALLY read them. Read them more than once, then thought about it, and posted my opinion on what I thought unconditional love really means.

We may not agree on things, but I am not a bad person, Ian. I am a human being, with thoughts and feelings - just like you. Quite frankly, I am a sensitive person, and I am also very caring. I don't think I deserve to be spoken to in the manner that you communicate to me. I could have responded to you with a lashing, but I choose not to. I do care about other people and don't like to hurt people's feelings. I don't really see the need to argue about things. We are all adults and we can agree to disagree on things.

I hope you have a good time on your trip, Ian. I do care.

[Jen_Jam]

Not much to add - just some food for thought from the Dalai Lama:

"Compassion without attachment is possible. Therefore, we need to clarify the distinctions between compassion and attachment. True compassion is not just an emotional response but a firm commitment founded on reason. Because of this firm foundation, a truly compassionate attitude toward others does not change even if they behave negatively. Genuine compassion is based not on our own projections and expectations, but rather on the needs of the other: irrespective of whether another person is a close friend or an enemy, as long as that person wishes for peace and happiness and wishes to overcome suffering, then on that basis we develop genuine concern for their problem. This is genuine compassion."

[swashy]

Thanks Rob. I'm in a video conference meeting right now....blah, blah, blah. Amazing how much of my time is spent sitting in meeting now with this new position.

I hear ya Rob. Very good point and I appreciate you relating what happened in your own experience. Will this R implode? Who knows. Will she want to come back to me if it did? Who knows. Will they end up getting married and living happily every after? Who knows.

My point is...I have no idea how this will play out and therefore I need to not worry about that and simply do what is right for me. If it plays out that she comes back to me at some point...I'll see where I'm at. My gut says that it just may be too little too late...but only time will tell. Then again...true love never dies.

Right now I'm just looking forward to having dinner with a very attractive, successful, interesting young lady tomorrow night. I sent some pics from last weekend to the peanut gallery and plenty of them had dibs on this little hottie...sorry guys...keeping my options open at this point.

[swashy]

Not much to add - just some food for thought from the Dalai Lama:

"Compassion without attachment is possible. Therefore, we need to clarify the distinctions between compassion and attachment. True compassion is not just an emotional response but a firm commitment founded on reason. Because of this firm foundation, a truly compassionate attitude toward others does not change even if they behave negatively. Genuine compassion is based not on our own projections and expectations, but rather on the needs of the other: irrespective of whether another person is a close friend or an enemy, as long as that person wishes for peace and happiness and wishes to overcome suffering, then on that basis we develop genuine concern for their problem. This is genuine compassion."

That is fantastic Jen. THANK YOU! This is exactly the type of examples I wish to follow.

You have stated your opinion very well Kristy. Good for you.

[osu43130]

Scott,

Right now I'm just looking forward to having dinner with a very attractive, successful, interesting young lady tomorrow night. I sent some pics from last weekend to the peanut gallery and plenty of them had dibs on this little hottie...sorry guys...keeping my options open at this point.

All I am going to say is just be careful. Be straight forward with her and have a great time. It is a great boost to the PMA. Hope you have a good time tomorrow night.

[swashy]

No worries Ben. Slow and steady. Just looking to get out and laugh and have some fun with a pretty girl. I don't need all the other drama in my life right now. There will be plenty of time for that later.

[Rob1231]

Will they end up getting married and living happily every after? Who knows.

That reminds me, about two years ago, a friend of mine went through the same deal. Then, about one year ago as it was all starting up for me, his W was finalizing their D and preparing for the nuptials with her OM. (My friend is doing very well now - has moved on, improved himself, and found himself another lady who appreciates The New Him.)

The interesting thing is, I got an email from him yesterday, where he mentioned his XW and her "Soon-to-be-ex-second-husband". Gotta get together with him for beers and hear the story here! But it really emphasized the point to me that, when an unhappy person runs away with someone new, they take all of their old problems with them. Unless they improve themselves, the chances of a future R working out any better than the past one aren't so hot.

[whapu]

Swashy,
I have visited from time to time, keeping track of all the bow and arrows flung and such. I had to chime in for a couple of reasons. One-I think you have TRULY acheived what you set out for (well, at least half). I really think your self esteem is rather vast actually. You have found YOURSELF.

I have to agree with you Swashy on the unconditional love aspect of things. I actually think of it in different terms...I think of it more as non-judgmental. To be a FRIEND doesnt mean you are a doormat...it means that allow the person to be who they are...it doesnt mean that you contribute to it.

Second-I also agree with your take on that she will now have to start over and will most likely confront the same problems and hope for different results...as will you. But you have a "healthy" perspective so you are already ahead of the game.

Not much more to add with this vaccuum like mind I carry around but just wanted to at least throw a thought out there. You should be proud of yourself...even though you're a Pats fan!
peace....

[swashy]

Speed...you like that don't ya buddy!?!?! You know what I'm talking about....

[swashy]

Wow..that is interesting Rob. We never know what path our lives will take. I do know that I am getting myself back to the person I used to be...but with more experience and knowledge. The person she fell in love with...and the person I loved. Gotta love yourself right? Not saying she will ever come back...don't think she will. Just saying that I had my very dark time and I am finding the true me again.

You are also right that stepping into a new R without first fixing your issues is a very bad idea. I know I have learned my issues through this and from all of you. I think she has learned some, seems happier at times but I think she still has a hard time implementing some of what she has learned. If they end up together, hopefully he can help her do that.

Whapu - thanks so much for checking and for the kind words....minus the pats comment! Moss???? hmmmm. A vast self-esteem....interesting. Thanks man.

[whapu]

Swashy,
Being a Raiders fan (a heavy cross to bare) it was only just for us to try and pollute your waters of victory with a little moss. You know what "moss" can do to your lawn? Raider fans all over are conspiring and hoping this will occur to the well maintained lawn of the Pats! Sorry, just had to get that off my chest..peace

[sofaraway]

I am not scared of you Ian. I just think that you come across as an angry person. We all have issues on this board that we are dealing with, and I was just giving you my take on things as an outsider. I get the feeling that you think that you can "do no wrong" and that your opinion is always the correct one. It's ok for people to have differing opinions. This is, after all, a public forum.

As far as sticking my nose where it doesn't belong, well, Scott is one of my friends and I care about him. I follow his sitch and give input from time to time. I am not scared to voice my opinion. Also, I was not getting defensive, just offering my opinion. Your post, however, was very defensive. As far as self esteem, everyone on this board has some sort of self esteem issue from one time or another, so for you to say that you don't have that issue is just you being defensive. Ian, I think that sometimes you should take your own advice.

Oh, and I did read your posts. I REALLY read them. Read them more than once, then thought about it, and posted my opinion on what I thought unconditional love really means.

We may not agree on things, but I am not a bad person, Ian. I am a human being, with thoughts and feelings - just like you. Quite frankly, I am a sensitive person, and I am also very caring. I don't think I deserve to be spoken to in the manner that you communicate to me. I could have responded to you with a lashing, but I choose not to. I do care about other people and don't like to hurt people's feelings. I don't really see the need to argue about things. We are all adults and we can agree to disagree on things.

I hope you have a good time on your trip, Ian. I do care.

Kristy,
I won't get deep into this because it is not something we need to do here. I will simply tell you that I had no issue with your initial post or your opinion, I understand and respect it completely. My issue was that you threw in the line at the end where you told me that I was putting my issues off on Scott and should look at my own self esteem. That in my opinion was your stab at me and what sparked the conflict.

I will apologize for my reaction, I do not take well to someone throwing something off on me. I agree you care about Swashy, and respect you have your opinions and offer him advice, that is a good thing.

I will simply ask you to not throw me in the mix with that as you and I have an understanding that we just do not get along and shouldnt get involved with each others sitch's.

So no hard feelings, sorry if you were hurt by my post.


Ian

[swashy]

I hear ya whapu! The big B has transformed many a wayward player in the past...but I think he has his has his work cut out for him this time around.

Well said Ian - takes a big man to do that.

[KristyS]

My issue was that you threw in the line at the end where you told me that I was putting my issues off on Scott and should look at my own self esteem. That in my opinion was your stab at me and what sparked the conflict.

I wasn't taking a stab at you. I was just trying to point out what I see, and not just what I see in your posts to Scott..but just in general.

I do not take well to someone throwing something off on me.

NOT TRYING TO TAKE A STAB AT YOU HERE ...but read this line over again.....Just want to point out that you throw things off on others in your posts here, but when you feel like it is being done to you, you don't like it. Just think about that.....

Apology accepted. Peace brother.

[swashy]

Ok...now can we end it? I guess it will have to end anyway...because Ian is getting ready to leave for the Airpport. Have fun buddy.

[Kman]

Makes me a little nervous when Speed talks about "swinging things."

[galing]

If any of you guys get a chance sometime, will you look at Gina's thread? I don't feel like she gets a lot of different people commenting and different viewpoints are always a good thing.

[osu43130]

Especially when referring to Ian....

[swashy]

Well...sitting at work drinking a beer...LOVE FRIDAYS!

So gotta head over and grab the key to my new place on my way home. YAY! Going to try and start moving some stuff in this weekend. W called - her, kids and I are going to go to Ikea tomorrow to pick them up a bunk bed for her place. They may stay there with her tomorrow night. Good to get them used to it I guess. Oh yeah, she did a little better on her exam then she thought so she has made it through another semester. Only one left! And a guy she knows who finished up last years says that the last semester is pretty easy and that the one she just finished was the hardest. Good!

My "friend's" friend had invited me up to have a drink with her and a friend that was coming in from out of town. Well her friend is now not coming...so she emailed me and in it she says:

"I'll likely curl up in comfy clothes, have some dinner and watch a movie. You are more than welcome to join! "

hmmmm....interesting offer....from the recently divorced hottie!

I know the peanut gallery who saw the pictures will kick my a$$ for saying it...but just don't think I'm ready for anything to happen and I feel like I'm putting myself into a tempting and possibly dangerous situation.

[Rob1231]

I know the peanut gallery who saw the pictures will kick my a$$ for saying it...but just don't think I'm ready for anything to happen and I feel like I'm putting myself into a tempting and possibly dangerous situation.

I think you should go with those instincts, then, Scott. No need to rush things.

Although I will complain that you have not shared those hottie pictures with ME!

[swashy]

I'll see if i can send them via your myspace mail Rob.

Or I could go and simply stay in control...which I can do.

[galing]

So Scottie,

Are you going to go or wait for another time when you can hang out in a setting where you won't feel like it is "tempting" and "possibly dangerous?"

Whatcha gonna do?

[Rob1231]

Or I could go and simply stay in control...which I can do.

Well, ask yourself: What message are you trying to send here?

[Exiled]

Well...sitting at work drinking a beer...LOVE FRIDAYS!

Welcome to high tech

"I'll likely curl up in comfy clothes, have some dinner and watch a movie. You are more than welcome to join! "

hmmmm....interesting offer....from the recently divorced hottie!

I know the peanut gallery who saw the pictures will kick my a$$ for saying it...but just don't think I'm ready for anything to happen and I feel like I'm putting myself into a tempting and possibly dangerous situation.

Perhaps you can counter offer with just a long phone call?

Whatever happened to the the friend who introduced you two? They fighting with each other over you yet

[swashy]

Well I emailed her back and just kind of said...didn't want to crash on any "alone" time. We'll see what she says.

Dana - I actually have a lot of self control in situations like that and I if I don't want to do anything I won't...which I don't. Just not there yet. So I guess it's not really dangerous. Also don't want to set myself up for what could be an uncomfortable situation either though. Whatever, not going to sweat it.

[swashy]

[quote=swashy]

Whatever happened to the the friend who introduced you two? They fighting with each other over you yet

No..not yet.

Just fun! Don't worry guys. Totally in control.

[galing]

I need clarification. I thought it was your hs friend you were interested in? Or it is the friend of the hs friend?

[Exiled]

I need clarification. I thought it was your hs friend you were interested in? Or it is the friend of the hs friend?

Wasn't it both? The open question is at the same time or not?

[swashy]

Oh boy. I'm just having fun. Going out and getting to know someone new is all. I'm not ready for anything anyway...so I guess I don't see the harm...no?

I gave her the "don't want to intrude"...This sounds safe - right?

Not at all! As long as you don't mind me in my jammies. :-) If popcorn, movie, and beer/wine sound good, come on over. Was also considering catching a movie out tomorrow night - there are a bunch out that I've wanted to see. Why don't we catch up tomorrow and see what sounds good? I'll be at Dad's during the day but will have my cell.

[swashy]

ROFLMAO! Sounds like a plan buddy! You got it man.

[swashy]

You are one of the most selfless people I know my friend. Simply amazing.

[S_O_T_S]

you can go out with either one of them and if anything starts looking like a situation you don't want to happen, call me.

Day late, dollar short. Sorry man.

[swashy]

sorry speed...but he did have dibs...plus he's local.

runoff..dear God. Listen...they may just be being nice ya know!?!? Jeesh.

[swashy]

Speed at Fenway...that would be a treat.

Just found this on another thread. Found it pretty interesting. Don't think I can really handle it right now...but may need to try it at some point. Maybe once I'm in my new place, etc.

http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubb...&gonew=1#UNREAD

[swashy]

Yup..I feel like I've kind of been doing some of that...but that kind of deals with actually re-training your brain. Interesting I thought. Sounds a lot like what I've been saying about life being all about choices, etc.

[swashy]

Fair enough bud.

[swashy]

Ugh....so my D6 was in my room about an hour ago crying. Upset because mommy wasn't home. Upset because she doesn't get to see her as much as she gets to see me. Upset because "you and mommy don't get to see each other much and that's not fair". My D6 wanted to be a Nurse just like her mommy...well tonight she told me that she didn't anymore because that means she won't get to be with her family and that's not fair to them.

I know my W thinks the kids are resiliant and she has convinced herself that the kids will be better off, etc. Sucks. The boys seem ok...they seem to be rolling with it pretty well. D is always concerned about who is where. When one of us comes home or one of us leaves she overly showers us with attention. I told her tonight that if she ever had questions or if she was ever sad or anything that she needs to talk to me about it. She said "yeah, but you're not always here". So I said...well then you need to talk to mommy. I can't protect my W from it and my D should be able to talk to her mother about it.

She is such a great little girl and this is just ripping her apart inside. Fing sucks.

[galing]

I'm sorry Scott.

Are the kids going to counseling at all? Maybe would be good to be proactive and get them someone to talk to about all of this and to learn some coping mechanisms for it? I have no idea...just a thought.

The kids are going to be okay though. I just know they will be. As long as you love them and have a great relationship with them and a positive relationship with their mom, they are going to come out of this okay.

[swashy]

Thanks Dana. No, no C for them..but maybe not a bad idea. I called new C for me today. She called me back but I missed her. Maybe I will talk to her about that or about getting them through this when I do finally get in with her.

I know that this will fall on me because my W can't deal with the fact that this does effect them. She called me a couple weeks ago all upset because my parents said something to her about it. "That's just the way she is. It has nothing to do with it". Ok...

So...I'll do my best. I know in the end, they will all be ok. They are not the first kids to have to deal with this.

But thanks Dana.

[galing]

Please know I wasn't trying to oversimplify it either. This is a HUGE thing and it will be hard for them and a big adjustment and it needs to be thought about, planned, and worked on. But I know you as their dad will do that.

[inspiredjulie]

Hey S2H... Sorry to hear about D6. She and my D are the same age and I worry about her. One thing that has helped my D6 is talking to another child her age whose parents are D'd. They were just shooting the breeze by themselves and it came it so it was pretty surreal, but she seems much better. I also know that my D4 has a hard time letting me out of her sight now, so I try to let her know what I'm doing if I'm going out of eyesight for even a minute. Don't want her to feel any more abandoned than she kind of does.

That all said, I am amazed at how well my kids are adapting. Sure we are going to have tough times. Sure it is hard and rips at my heart strings. But I just keep reminding them I have unconditional love for them and that the invisible string between our hearts has been there since they were conceived and will never break. Kids are amazing. But they do need to see parents who are ok with the sitch. They are taking clues from us. So although it can kill me sometimes, I make a point of being overly excited for their times w/ H.

Ok... just realized I'm rambling. Hope something here helped, if nothing else that I feel your pain. Have a great weekend and keep enjoying yourself!

[swashy]

Not at all hun. Didn't take it that way. But I probably have not been on top of it as much as I should have been. But now that she has really come to me about it...you better believe I will.

[swashy]

Thanks Jules! Very good advice as always. You really are an incredible mother. A C I talked to over the phone once back in the fall said that D6 would be the one to have the hardest time with it..middle child, female, etc.

The boys seem to be doing pretty well. I do ask them once in a while if they have any questions about anything that is going on, etc. But they usually don't...seem to be rolling with it pretty well.

Still hard for me to believe that my kids are going to "come from a broken family". Just blows my mind. Can't control that but I sure as hell can control being there for them.

[cliffy]

Swashy, thanks for popping over to my thread. Sorry to hear about where things have gone, but you are very fortunate to have learned the lessons along the way. You are definitely a great dad and person, keep at it brother.

[swashy]

Thanks Cliffy!

Yeah HS...I hear ya. Nope...not something that I wanted my kids to go through obviously. That said, I also didn't want them going through life with a mother the way she was...so incredibly depressed. She does seem to be doing a better job, so that is the good. I just wished that she could be happy WITH me...that is what would have been best for the kids. Unfortunately she never chose to really try that avenue. That's is why I get upset when I think about not going to MC or anything...if not for me or our M...then for our kids!

Oh well..can't control it right?

[swashy]

I'm gonna hit the sack everyone!

Have a great night and weekend.

[swashy]

Running around a lot today but wanted to put up a quick post. I feel great today! W, kids and I went to Ikea to grab the boys a bunk bed for the W's house. Then I had to get D6 to a birthday party. Then I went and set up the bunk bed and did some other loose end stuff. Brought her one of our grills, tv, etc. I think the kids are going to spend their first night there tonight.

What a difference a couple of weeks can make. Two weeks ago, I walked in there and left in tears. Today - no problem at all. I just really feel like I am truly starting to move on with my life. I'm happy that she has her little corner of the world over there for herself and the kids. It feels good. I'm excited to get to my place.

I guess...I'm just starting to realize that the way she is right now with her lies, cheating, etc....I really do not want to be with her. I do love her and I know that good person that I married is in there somewhere....but until she comes out again...I just have not interest in being with her. I mean I like to be around her, be friendly, etc...but I finally get it...I really do deserve better. I deserve to be with someone I can trust fully and with someone who doesn't hurt me. And I'm not bitter at all. And I know that seems weird...but I'm not. It's just like - ok go live your life, if you need me, let me know - I'll help you in any way I can...all is good.

I don't know...know I'm rambling...have a lot to do so I'll come back later and clean this up some more...but all is good in the world of swashy.

Just called my "friend's" friend...left her a message. Looking forward to getting out and having some fun tonight. Fishing in the AM. heehheee.

You know waht else...I feel like I am finally being ME around her....because I AM moving on. I feel like we're not really on the opposite sides of the fence anymore...that tension isn't there for me. It was Memphis Scottie today....almost. Not as wild...but happy and fun. AND IT FELT GREAT! YAY ME!

[delia]

Where you going fishing? It's a little off-topic, but I was just curious. my kids keep fishing and fishing, and they never catch anything.

Best wishes--

Delia

[Trip]

For what it's worth in coming from me. I think you are doing great, Scott!

[swashy]

Thanks Guys! Trip - "coming from me"??? What gives girl? I hope you realize how much I appreciate and respect your advice...seriously.

Speed...yup, feels pretty good. I fully realize, that I'll have my ups and downs during this ride..but today was an up. Feels good to be letting go and focusing on me, etc. And I do still love her with all my heart and I am sure I always will on some level...but at some point, you begin to realize you deserve better than that. Is the female attention I have been paid? Maybe a bit. That has certainly helped my confidence. Not sure...but whatever it is...I feel good.

And on that note...she had to cancel...she warned me that she might...so no biggie. Asked for a raincheck. She went out and bought one of those new VW Eos today...sweeeet. Maybe we can take a ride with the top down some day.

Anywhoooo...at my buddy's getting up early and going fishing. Delia - going ocean fishing out of a small town south of Boston. We fish for Stripers. Starting to slow down..but the spring was good....so I hear...haven't done nearly enough.

Oh yeah..ran over and brought some stuff to the new place. Felt good to be in there walking around. I pulled up and just felt a sense of peace.

[Krylos]

Swashy, sounds like you are doing well. I haven't had time to check in for a while, sorry abouth that, things are still pretty busy here. Keep up the good work!!!

[Matt-14]

Swashy,
Sounds like your doing good. I'm glad to hear that. You never know what the future holds. As far as Striper fishing goes, I hope you catch a monster, you deserve it. I live not far from the Chesepeke and have a 17' boat that I take down there sometimes to fish for flounder or croaker. Good luck!
Matt

[swashy]

Hey Krylos - thanks for checking in. You sound good too buddy.

Thanks Matt. I could use a nice keeper tomorrow. That would make my day. I had a 19' CC that I had to sell this fall...broke my heart. But in the end...it is just a boat.

Just a note to all the newcommer's. I know what I'm writing may be confusing to some of you and may not be what you are looking for. Please realize that i've been at this for almost a year now and things have progressivly gotten worse and worse as far as my M is concerned. BUT...I have really managed to save myslef in this process. I am such a different and better person that I was a year ago. So I could imagine that a lot of newcommer's may come to my thread now and say...jeesh that is sad. Don't. I am a success story.

[Matt-14]

Swashy,
I think you are a success story also. If you are happy and a better person, what more can you ask for. Sometimes I wonder why I hang on...but I do love my W and I don't really think she knows what she wants right now. She said that she has to be happy with herself first. I'm in no hurry to do anything so will see what the future holds. The pain of those initial words ILYBINILWY has lessened a little. I hold out hope but I know I would be okay without her. It just seems like it would be 14 years down the drain sometimes. I'd do it again though because I got 3 graet kids out of it! I guess I would sell my boat also if we decide to split. Do you like basesball? Boston Fan? I can't stand Boston or New York! I like the Orioles.....well that is another depressing story

[confuseddude]

swashy,

just letting you know i was around updating myself on your sitch...lookin good.

[swashy]

Yup Matt....if my W wanted me to...I'd probably hang on as well but my W does know what she wants and that is to divorce me. So be it. Not a big baseball fan...but I am starting to get into the sox.

I went fishing this morning. Had fun. Caught a bunch of stripers but no keepers. On the way back I texted W and asked if she wanted me to grab some dunkin donuts. I knew she didn't have any food at her place and the kids were there. She texted back and said "sure". So I did. Got there, hung out with my kids for a bit. We were sitting on the deck and she was just really quite. I asked what was wrong and she said nothing (of course). I then said that I felt like I was intruding. I got something like "Well they want you here now anyway, so don't worry about it". If she didn't want me to come by she should have just said that she was all set as far as breakfast. She doesn't stand up for what she wants, expects me to read her mind and then resents me when I don't. Whatever. Then she suggests that I stay there with the kids because they were having fun and that she'd go groccery shopping. Well I hung out for a bit with them but then decided to leave. I have a lot to do today anyway...but I certainly didn't want to hang out somewhere that I wasn't wanted.

Guess we just need to set out boundaries moving forward...but she won't because she won't want to hurt my feelings or something...but then I'm the bad guy for not just knowing. Whatever! Same behavior that gut us here.