Stillme's Chapters Continue Some More

[stillme]

And thanks, Donna, for the support & thoughts.

(The Pouf! reference is purely a magical thing - in no way means or implies that I effect the Pouf-ing. But thanks for the reminder.)

Yes, H applying my ideas to his R w/the kids is a pos. thing for the kids, and for his R w/them. He IS such a bettr father today than he was for the past 3, 4, 5? Does he see that he prolly wouldn't have thought of doing these things if left to his own devices? Prolly not. He (way pre-Bomb; as in the Original H) was always very caring & empathetic & thoughtful. The last few yrs his R w/the kids suffered as H got more & more concerned w/his OWN wants/happiness. Assuming he didn't continue on that way, he prolly would have come up w/something like these ideas on his own at some point.

Yeah, MAYBE he'll start applying Better-the-R things to me, too. Tho he DID (Feb/March) & I'm still confused about that. He was all about giving my LL (QT), talking w/me (not AT me), putting on movies that I would want, NOT being on his cell/laptop in the evenings, making "girl" drinks in the blender. . .Then he stopped. I WILL keep showing the way; I know he's still watching & learning from me (esp how to deal w/the kids/D/S thing now). It's just hard.

[Nomopo]

I think H picking up on the R tips and applying to the kids is not only a positive for his relat with the kids but for your sitch too. Still on blackberry.

[stillme]

SuperDad, your post hit very close to dead-on w/this sitch w/H.

Yes, H is taking my ideas & bettering his R w/the kids w/them. He has never (until lately) discounted my Mothering & was always pretty vocal about giving me the credit for raising the kids so well, 'knowing' how to do it best & following my lead.

It DOES hurt that he purposely excludes me, and intimates that he would have thought of/done these things (despite me) IF he'd not been working so hard (to 'support' the fam. - oh, no his ego/aspirations had NOTHING to do w/it tho); and I guaran-damm-tee he's doing it to prove what a Great Father he is/can be all by himself.

But, no. He is not detached from me. He is trying like heck to harden his heart against me and by focusing on his financial-based anger, he's successful.

The problem is that he is afraid to even crack open the door to a new R with you for fear that it will end back up where you were a year ago. This makes me want to cry, it's so true and I can't do a thing about it.

I've got patience still. I'm still w/my Ship. I still have Hope (tho the flame flickers weakly at times). I AM a good person, smart, self-aware (now!), happy (for the most part), healthy & getting Better every day.

As for the 'beautiful', ha! Thanks. (Today, when the guy in the truck stopped next to mine at a light did the chin-jerk eye-contact thing, my first (only) thought was "Oh cr*p! Do I know him??" (I've an AWFUL memory for faces/names!) so, lol, blinders still on.


PS~Found out today that H "doesn't let" the kids call their g'mom (his mom). Don't know what that's all about but it's another thing that's (a) not my business but (b) hurts my heart for my kids' sake.

[C_K]

j

good to read that you are getting better every day. The emotional shut out is tough to deal with.
Concentrate on what you are doing and try not to worry about him too much for a while.

Dave

[Reincarnated]

{{{J}}}

It hurts, I know...look back through not only some of your own work, but the postings you've made to the countless of us here. You really have a wonderful light and wisdom about these things. Sometimes it is hard to see that within ourselves, but you can see it in the way you help other people...

on the lighter side, when you mentioned "harden his heart," I had the very inappropriate vision of a Mentos candy--hard on the outside, chewy on the inside! So, he may still be an ol' softy, hiding it away ;0)

[Nomopo]

Hey j. Haven't forgotten about you but you've had some good advice and all I was hoping to do was to review some of your posts in the past two weeks to put these most recent exchanges in context. I still plan to do it, but it will have to be later today/tonight. I know you've bounced back, so it felt less urgent. Have a great day!

[Reincarnated]

J--
Making other connections so you feel less alone? Because, you know that you are wanted / appreciated / needed by so many...

Thinking of you,
D

[stillme]

So, I read a good book last night: James Dobson's Love Must be Tough (recommended by friend K who used it herself). Lots of parallels w/DB/DR on what to do when a spouse wants Out - but when I got to certain parts, I actually went "Yes! THAT's my H!! That's my sitch!" So, tho I know I shoulda implemented the 48 hr rule, the opportunity arose today and, well, . . . Let me back up a bit.

(paraphrasing) Love Must Be Tough: Long before any decision is made to cheat/walk out, something basic has begun to change in the R. This is NOT, as many books claim, the gen'l 'falure to communicate' (which is a symptom of a deeper prob.). The critical element is the way one spouse begins to perceive the other & their lives together. One spouse begins to feel TRAPPED and, as time passes, thoughts follow that show the other spouse in more & more dim light (She's out of shape, not very interesting, no fun, bad w/money, doesn't love me enough, disorganized etc.) The [WAS] begins to chafe at the bit w/o revealing to the other how his perception has evolved (b/c a reasonably compassionate person does not sit down calmly & disclose those kinds of thoughts to someone who loves him) and his behavior begins to change - increased evenings out (or anything to keep him out of the home), becoming irritable, withdrawn or noncommunicative, a changed lifestyle that makes HIM more interesting, fun etc. (to himself) and, of course, he may move out and/or find someone else. While the trapped partner is thinking/doing these things, the other spouse most likely starts clinging & grasping, nagging, complaining or shutting down herself.

In most troubled M's, the basic problem involves the way one partner has begun to perceive the other - when one spouse's "value" (as ascribed to him/her by his own spouse) diminishes. That perceived worth is incorporated in the word "RESPECT" and it is absolutely basic to all human R's. The way we behave from day-to-day is largely a function of how we respect or disrespect the people around us. Employees/boss, children/parents, friends, family, strangers, and Nations. That's why marital discord ALMOST ALWAYS emanates from seething disrespect somewhere in the R! That is the bottom line of romantic confrontation.

If there is hope for a dying M, then it is likely found in the reconstruction of RESPECT btwn warring H & W.

How?
1 ~ The vulnerable spouse must first open the cage & let the trapped partner out! All techniques of containment must end imm.: manipulative grief, anger, guilt, appeasement, begging, pleading, hand-wringing & playing the role of doormat. (There may be a time & place for strong feelings to be expressed, and there may be an occasion for quiet tolerance, but these responses must not be used as persuasive devices to hold the drifting partner against his/her will.) Now let your partner marvel at your self-control in coming weeks. Only the passage of time will convince him that you are serious: that he actually IS free. He may even test you during this period by expressions of great hostility or insult. But one thing is certain: He will be watching for signs of weakness or strength. The vestigages of Respect hang in the balance.

If the vulnerable spouse passes the initial test & convinces the partner that his freedom is secure, some (typical/extremely common) changes occur in the R: (1) Trapped partner no longer feels it necessary to fight off the other, the strain btwn them eases; (2) The question the 'cooled' spouse has been asking himself changes from "How can I get out of this mess?" to "Do I really want to go?" Just knowing that he can have his way makes him less anxious to achieve it. (3) The mind of the vulnerable spouse changes in that she feels somehow more in control of the sitch, she has begun to respect herself, she has a plan/a program/a definate course of action to follow & that is infinitely more comfortable than the utter despair & powerlessness felt before. And little by little, the healing process begings.

(2 ~ ANY personal crisis, esp when it involves something as important as the stability of a family, should begin w/concerted prayer. There is something about great stress that takes us back int he direction of responsibility.)

3 ~ A deliberately conceived confrontation may take a M literally to the door of death. Precipitate a crisis of major proportions. Give a reason for the [WAS] to want to reroute his river, as he is unlikely to make the investment of energy & self-control to accomplish that task until he absolutely must. It is only when he becomes miserable that he will accept the responsibility for change. it is only when he sees everything of value to him (his home, his children, his wife, his reputation) begin to slip away that his choices will become clear. It is only when the well runs dry that he will begin to miss the water.

Tough love.

If a spouse is wavering btwn responsibility & irresponsibility, confused or conflicted as to which path he should choose, he needs a strong excuse to do the right thing and can almost seem to be asking for motivation.

Hang tough -- Diff. sitchs/diff individuals will respond more/less positively & take more/less time . . .

Remember that the basic marital problem usualy involves matters of respect, which are often generated during instances of confrontation. This is true of human nature. By having the courage to stand up for themselves, a spouse may regenerate a portion of the respect they have lost.

By making it clear that there are limits to what you can/will tolerate, you are showing self-respect and confidence and, strangely, that often draws the partner towards you.

The precipitated crisis must first be accompanies by an entire change of attitude. You must appear strangely calm & assured. CONFIDENCE is of maximum importance. Your manner (NOT your mouth!) should say, "I believe in me. I'm no longer afraid. I can cope, regardless of the outcome. I know something I'm not talking about. I'm thru crying. I can handle whatever life puts in my path."

Parallel DBing: Change! Don't do/say what you normally would. Be unpredictable. Be mysterious. Unless there is business to be conducted, don't telephone a S who has Separated. When you must talk, get right to business after a few words of small talk, then politely terminate the call. Do not take the bait as he may try to get you to divulge your 'hand'. It is uncomfortable for him to observe tht changes are occurring which he neither controls nor understand. Do not behave in unloving ways.

The partner who is threatening to leave is rarely convinced beyond a shadow of a doubt that he's doing the right thing. He's equipped w/a God-given conscience, after all, that is hammering him w/guilt. We can assume that some degree of self-doubt exists in a majority of the H & W's who are threatening to leave. Tho he appears resolute & determined, a tug of war is going on inside.

**Most important part of the face-to-face crisis experience.** Carefully organize your thoughts & rehearse what you plan to convey. Seek perspective. The central theme should not focus on what you hope your partner will do, but on your own conclusions.

*****************8

So that's the gen'l nut-shell idea. When H called today & (again) expected his "Secretary" (me) to accommodate accede to his wants/needs re: the sitch in gen'l & scheduling kid-sharing for July in particular, I,uh, precipitated a crisis.

To recap, I (we've) already done the beginning steps:
1. Crying, reasoning, OR Talks (initiated by me) ended Jan.4
2. DBing began Jan.5 when I told H I would not fight him anymore; he deserves to be happy; he can file the papers & I will sign
3. Dbing continued (180's, GALing, Detaching slowly but surely) w/pos. results until H latched on to Anger (job sitch/financial based) as a focus rathr than our (to then) good/better R (mid-March)
4. S since mid-March, tho H NOT detached (constant calls, stops by, frequent talks, escalating ugliness, consistent anger, blame, control issues
5. To date (7 mo post-bomb) no papers have been filed & H has admitted to not even seeing a L. For past few mo. he has been pressuring me to cooperate w/ or "mutually" D
6. I have remained (for most part) calm, detached, friendly (trying for Dim to avoid further Talks & ugliness, tho obviously w/o expected results)
7. My cooperation, accommodation, agreeableness is def. perceived as a weakness by H. His ugliness escalates; he has no respect for me; and expects Sitch/D & all it entails will go according to his Plan (to his benefit)

My DBing/Plan/Program has allowed me knowledge, personal growth, self-awareness, understanding, insight, empathy, compassion, foregiveness, confidence . . . and respect for and enjoyment in myself again.

More of the same behavior will allow H to continue his (pretty) comfortable perch on the top of his pillar of Anger, far away from thoughts of his responsibility for what-went-before as well as what-is-to-be. He is cake-eating this M/R - enjoying the benefits of it when it suits him or when he thinks to get something for his efforts. Expecting that it will continue; that I "want him back" so badly I will do anything for it.

Today I did a 180 in our scheduling. In a very controlled/pre-meditated way, I used anger (complete w/raised voice & 4-letter words) & allowed him to hear that I was "done" w/him & his "wants". (Ex. When I told him I'd registered the kids for Vacation Bible School Mon-Fri one wk; 6-8:30pm he imm. jumped on me for not clearing it w/him first. Even tho I said it was up to him whether/not to take the kids on whatever "his" nights were that wk, he still carried on. I can never be right. He wants/needs to be able to TELL ME what to do, when & how cheerfully.) It took almost an hr & a "time-out" excuse to hang up for a while for us to schedule 1 mo.

He held tight to his "Reasonable Boss talking to the Low-IQ-Underling" tone for the most part, but did spew a bit about how I was out to "bleed him dry" (child support) b/c he knew I was trying to make sure I got more than my "fair" 50% of the month w/the kids (when he was wanting 16 days). How I "HAD TO" put his needs/wants first b/c, after all, HE was the one paying the bills. . . I said that no judge would require me to accommodate him on a month-to-month, week-to-week & day-to-day basis like I had been; and that after the D it would be set up much differently.

He said, at one point in response to something I'd said, "Yu think I have a CHOICE in this? (referring to D) You think any of this is MY FAULT?!" I said, "We all have choices, J. Stop thinking like a victim & a martyr & you'll see that."

When the last date was set, I said "15 days. Wonderful." and hung up.

He called back an hr later.
I didn't answer. He didn't leave a message.

He called at 5:30pm WHEN HE KNOWS WE ARE AT JIU JITSU!

H: "Hey"
Me: [nothing]
H: "Are the kids there?"
Me: "J, come talk to your father."
[We have to take phone calls outside the (small) studio. H knows this. I go outside on the sidewalk w/D as she talks. H knows I don't leave the kids alone on the street. At one point I hear her say "Yeah, she's right by me." I'm not listening.
THEN HE TELLS HER TO PUT ME ON & I couldn't think of a way to get out of it w/o putting D in the middle, so I take it.

Me: Yes?
H: How much advance notice do you need for me to borrow the Yukon?
Me: What? -- When?
H: (his friendly, buddy voice) I don't know. X is still working on the engine, but it'll be done soon, and I'll have to pick it up, and I'll need the Yukon to get it.
Me: So, you're asking to borrow my car.
H: I NEED to use it. I just need to know how much time in advance I need to tell you.
Me: [dead-air]
H: Do you have anything planned - any trips or anything where you'll need it?
Me: Look. How 'bout you figure out when exactly you'd like to borrow it, and I'll see then.



It's awfully Dark in here. . .

I realize this sounds like I've shot my own - well - HEAD, but I surely think this is the right track. I've followed DBing and, as y'all have seen, H is holding strong to his position and increasing the ugliness and disrespect. He has his Plan, his wants & is convinced I'm no match for him. By continuing to allow this, I will have only myself to blame when our R dies a wimpering death & I roll over in a last-ditch effort to "make him" [whatever], or it all blows up in our faces during the D negotiations. H truly believes I am not worth anything - even the time, effort or money needed to D me. He "knows" me. My "value" in his eyes is nill. Yes, I know Believe Nothing He Says..., but I also know that HE BELIEVES what he is saying! His ANGER will not let him consider the possibility that he might be [anything else], that HIS WAY is not the Right or Best Way (for anyone but himself). It was said, he cannot sustain this anger indefinately - but he CAN re-flame the damm thing constantly (which is what he's been doing w/the frequent spewing & OR talks & blame) & I believe he has been re-convinced that I am NOT-WORTHY of Respect every time he goes unchecked in his words/actions.

So, surely, give me your thoughts & opinions. I'm open to it. But I'm committed to Dark now - NO contact (What's to talk about? The schedule is done.) and Mystery (non-date, anyone?); taking a page out of Sunny's book & Dressing to Impress on my evenings out (whether/not H will be around to witness it or not); etc

He thinks he doesn't want me?
He could only HOPE to catch me!

[Reincarnated]

He thinks he doesn't want me?
He could only HOPE to catch me!

I love this!!!

J, I have to tell you, I JUST read the same thing you posted...someone over at Separated sent me the link. Here:

Donna, here is an article you may want to read, I think it could give you a lot of insight into what OT has been telling you about the pursuing. Opening the cage door, think about it..

http://www.family.org/marriage/A000001322.cfm

Dafty

Please, go over and see the response I wrote to her on my thread when you get a chance.

It is a respect thing. But not only respecting their decisions to leave (just as we respected their decision to marry us). But we have to respect OURSELVES!!!! I think that you did a fair amount of that today.

If you really want to throw him, the next time he gives you any hateful words (which I know he loves to throw)...don't say anything. But either 1) get up and leave the room or 2) quietly hang up.

You have me humming Aretha Franklin...

R E S P E C T......

[Nomopo]

I dunno Bwana. I just read your post pretty quickly on my BB, but it sounds pretty damn good to me!