Gone Dancin's Dilemma, 3

[christarn]

GD...stay strong...you can do this....PMA!!! We are all here for you!! I am heading to IC...hope she can help me out a bit!! Rember you have to stay strong for your little ones...they are what count!!(HUGS)

[Gone Dancin']

Thanks Nomo, still, Dave, waw, H, Kat, christarn -- I really appreciate the support.

I'm still in the funk and just struggling as D day nears. Yesterday put the reality of the sitch back on the table for me, and reminded me of what I'm really up against.

W called yesterday around noon and left a message, but I didn't get it until almost 2:00. In it she asked when I wanted her to pick up the kids (or when she could pick up the kids), and said to call her back and let her know. Usually she works on Sunday, so I was assuming it would be after work. I called her back at that point, got her vm, and told her that I thought she was working, but if not then she can pick them up when they're done napping, and to call me back and let me know what's going on.

She called back about a half an hour later and said she wasn't working and could get the kids anytime. Then, she asked if I would be able to drop them off vs her come get them. I've never once been asked to drop them off at her place (I think she didn't want me to know where she lived) in the 8 months we've been separated. I knew from the kids that she is now living with OM, and was curious as to where the drop would be. Keep in mind I had a decent tone and attitude, but it wasn't real upbeat.

Me: Okay, that's fine.
W: If you don't want to I can come pick them up.
Me: No, it's okay. I just talked to K & T (my friend and his fiance -- W's friend) and we were going to see a movie after you got the kids, so I've gotta come that way anyway.
W: Oh.
Me: So where do you want me to drop them off?
W: Well, I moved. (pause) Don't know if you knew that or not.
Me: (Unphased) Yeah, the kids kind of told me.
W: Yeah, I figured they did.
Me: So where am I bringing them?
W: (W proceeds to tell me the street and house #). It's not too far away from my old apt (I new her old complex, but not her building or #).
Me: Okay, I've seen that street before -- it won't be a problem to find the place.
W: Okay.
Me: So I'll wait until they're done napping, then get them ready and head out. It'll probably be around 4:00 or so. Is that okay?
W: Yeah, that's fine.
Me: Okay, I'll call you before we leave.
W: Okay.
Me: Bye
W: Bye

There was some other talk early on about what days she could have them this week and some more talk about the first two weekends in Aug I need free to go to Seattle and Orlando. She got a little snappy at one point, but I just played cool and let it roll of my back and the convo got right back on track.

So the kids wake up a little later and we play for a bit, then I get cleaned up and nicely dressed for going out with the friends (and of course for W to see) after dropping off the kids. The kids want to wear some dress up costumes to W's house, so I let them (this is a 180 because before I would've made them put on some nice clothes before going ANYWHERE). W has lots of extra clothes right now so that wasn't a problem.

On the way to the house S5 says, "Daddy, if Mommy and [OM] get married, then [OM's son] and I will be brothers." That obviously hurt to hear, think about, etc, and I just couldn't resist so I said, "Yup. Who told you that?" Hoping and praying that he's not going to say Mommy or OM, he says, "[OM's son] did." WHEW! Dodged that bullet! Still, pretty interesting thing to hear, even if it did come from a 7 yr old. I'm wondering where he heard it or why he thought about it...

We pull up to the house, and my son says, "That's not it, Daddy!" I'm confused because it is the number W told me (twice), but I'm also skeptical because it is a duplex (and a pretty small one) and not a house. I wait for about 15 seconds to see if W steps out, but she doesn't so I get out and go to the door and knock. W opens it and I said in an upbeat tone, "Oh, okay! Wasn't sure if this was the right place. S5 kept telling me it wasn't because it doesn't have 2 doors (i.e. duplex)." W says, "Oh, that's because we always come in through the back (there's an alley where they park apparently)." So I get D3 out while W gets S5 out. I then walk back around the truck and W says, "That's it? No bags?" I say, "No, there's stuff. It's just in the front seat here," as I open the door and grab everything. I tell her what is in the bags and whatnot, and I ask her about the week's schedule again. We discuss it briefly, then I ask the kids for hugs and kisses. I joke with them for a second and then tell them to be good for Momma. W and I then say goodbye, I walk back to my truck and leave.

From the moment she came to the door after I first knocked to the moment she went back in side, W barely looked me in the eye. This was particularly noticeable when we were talking about the week's schedule. Both when she listened and talked, W kept her eyes down and averted the entire time. It was very odd. She has struggled to look me in the eye throughout the separation, but I think this was the worst I've experienced. I'm sure it is the fact that she's feeling guilty, but I'm not sure where the guilt is stemming from at this point. Is she still guilty that she left me and has broken up the family? Is it because it's now out in the open that she's moved in with OM? Does it have to do with the settlement piece (the fact that she's getting so much $ to buy a new house for herself originally, but that it now might include OM and his kids too)? Heck, maybe it's all of it. I don't know, I'm just trying to figure out why she has so much guilt still if this is something she wants and is choosing to do? What does the guilt say about where her heart is? If I'm not doing/saying things to make her feel guilty, then why does she feel that way?

I just wish I knew her heart and what she is really feeling! I guess I might find out the answer to at least some of this during the "last stand talk" this coming Sunday, but even then I'm not sure if it will be much. I'd like to know how invested she really is in this new R with OM. Part of me says she moved in with him because life is really difficult right now financially for her to be on her own. This could just be something that is transitional until the D is final and the house is sold so she can get her own place. I really want to know the answer to this (and think I need to know) so I can decide on whether or not to give her the 50/50 split on the house. If she tells me that her and OM are going to live together after she gets the new place, I might tell her that that wasn't part of the previous discussion in mediation, and that I don't feel obligated to give her so much $ and have it go to supporting people that I didn't intend it to. I feel like telling her that giving her the money to buy a place of her own for her and the kids is one thing, but giving her the money to buy a place for her, our kids, AND OM and his kids is quite another. I know her argument would likely be, "So you don't think I'm entitled to that money if I'm with someone else? What's the difference if I'm with someone now or later down the road?" I think there's some validity in that line of thinking, which is what causes me to struggle with the idea of NOT giving her the money. I just wish I knew if she truly sees herself being with OM for the long haul. I'm just so confused on what to do right now.

Anyway, just to round off the journaling for yesterday, I then went from W's place to our mutual friends' house. We hung out and BS'd for a while, waiting until it was time to go to the movie (which was Transformers btw, and was totally AWESOME!). Again, I've maintained a position of being upbeat around W's friend and not mentioning W at all. However, at one point, friend's fiance and I were alone in the living room and she asked, "So, W asked you to drop the kids off at her place? That's kind of...(trailing off, but hinting that she felt this was in poor taste)." I just jumped in like it was no big deal and said, "Yeah, it wasn't a problem. I figured I was coming down this way anyway." She then added, "Oh, I guess she always comes out to your place too (implying that it is probably only fair that I do the driving and dropping off once in a while)." That was as far as that convo went, but it seemed like she was wanting to get a read on my feelings about this. I just played it cool and acted like I'm perfectly comfortable with the situation as it stands -- trying not to tip my hand whatsoever that I'm dwelling on it even a little bit. We then went to the movie and parted separate ways.

Okay, I'm gonna stop there and collect some more thoughts, and maybe post a recap of where the mediation agreement stands and how it got there (for those who either aren't familiar with my whole sitch or who have maybe forgotten).

GD

[waw1978]

GD

You must be a saint or something!

You didn't know where you W was living with your small children?! This is beyond mind blowing. I am wondering what kind of person keeps this a secret from the other parent? This is soo wrong. I am so happy for you that you at least have the address, have seen the place etc. I hope this puts your mind at ease. Also, your W never told you she moved?

Please, please, look out for yourself in the mediation! I know you love your W and want to reconcile but it doesn't sound like she is playing fair.

[Gone Dancin']

Thanks waw,

You didn't know where you W was living with your small children?!

I knew where her apt complex was (it was close to her work), but didn't know the specific building or apt #, and even when I got it for D purposes (paperwork and such), I never went there and tried to figure out exactly where it was. I think my backing off and not inquiring or pushing this was a 180 for me, because of how controlling I had been in the past. I figured when she was ready, she would tell me or have me bring the kids by, etc. As far as her moving in with OM, I think it has only been about 3 weeks or so since she's really been staying there every night. Her apt lease is at the expiration period, so I think the transition has been recent. I know that the OM is a nice guy and a treats my kids well (I hear about these kinds of things from the kids, as they consistently volunteer info along these lines), so I haven't really been concerned about that. I was surprised at the size of their place (from the outside, at least), and am not sure how many bedrooms it has or where the kids are sleeping. I think I'm going to ask about that at some point during the talk next week.

Please, please, look out for yourself in the mediation! I know you love your W and want to reconcile but it doesn't sound like she is playing fair.

Could you elaborate on this a little?

Given the recent events, I know I've got A LOT to kick around and think about regarding the mediation. I think I'm going to have to have the talk first and see what W's feelings are before I make any decisions on the mediation agreement though.

GD

[Atlas]

GD,

I like the talk prior to the mediation. Might stop it, but at the least you will know where you stand. Maybe someone else can give a take on why to wait until after, but it seems pretty logical to try it first. I just think you have more pro's then con's. But be careful to not let it heat up the fire so that mediation becomes hell.

[waw1978]

GD

It just sounds like she is taking advantage of you and manipulating you by not telling you where she was living and also by moving in with the OM. These are things that directly effect the well being of your children, nothing to do with the M or your R with her. This is not fair behavior. Not only should you have had all of this info upfront, you should have been invited over to check both places out before she moved!

Don't let the new & improved GD pay for past mistakes, thats all. Look out for you & the kids first. W is an adult, can and should be made to fend for herself...do not make it easy for her move on with your $$$ and this new guy. I am not saying not to be fair to her but you can always give what you feel is appropriate down the road if its above & beyond what she is entitled to.

[Gone Dancin']

Atlas,

Mediation is over with (we did it in May), but the papers haven't been signed. I'll either find my previous post on what was decided on in that meeting, or I'll recap it here in a bit. What I was saying in my previous post is that I want to have "the last stand talk" first before I decide to either sign the mediation or ask to revisit it and make changes in my offer.

GD

[christarn]

Have you got your thoughts together yet on what you're going to say in the talk....let us know if you need some help!! Stay strong...keep dancing along!!

[Gone Dancin']

christarn,

Haven't put a second draft together for the last stand talk yet -- I need some more time to go through this thread and my last one to gather up everyone's input up to this point. Once I do that and compile some notes, I'll hammer out a new draft for DBer review. I have a DB coaching sesh on Wednesday afternoon, and I definitely want to have something to go over with her at that time (meaning I should have one put together real soon).

I'm getting ready to go have some coffee with a couple old colleagues, and then I'll be treating myself to dinner somewhere tonight before going to my Lindy Hop dance night. Chances are I might not be back on the boards until late tonight.

The following is from my post back on May 31st, and contains the mediation discussion and final outcome (though, again, papers have not been signed by me yet, so it is still possible to change things):


Originally posted May 31st:

"I just had my second mediation appointment today, and struggled a little bit on the staying happy and not being emotional (it's kind of hard though when you're forced to talk about the M or the loss of it, and are dividing up things). The big issue of course was my giving her the 40% of the net sale of our house once I sell it. As you know, this is what I offered her last week. However, when I reflected on it, I realized that I should've asked her what she thought was fair instead of making on offer (which I realized was me controlling the situation again).

So...today, I retracted the offer and asked her what she thought would be fair. She struggled with it a little, but felt that because her name was on the house, and she has paid all of the bills (for the most part) since we've been married and has worked the most of either of us but has nothing to show for it, that she should get half. She actually never said it, but she implied it and the mediator confirmed it. As I've said before, I always controlled my inheritance money, so we were never really equal in our 7 year marriage. She said during this discussion that all she ever wanted was for us to be equal, and I agreed that we weren't and it was my mistake for making this the case -- and that we should've been. I said that I felt guilty only offering 40% the first time, because it was like saying "you're only worth 40% of this marriage. I also said that I didn't want her to feel guilty in me giving her the money -- to feel like she owed me anything for doing so. I said that I just want the kids to be stable at both places (you know, good homes and lifestyles), and for her to not have to struggle if I don't. It just wouldn't seem right if that were the case. She then said that she wouldn't feel guilty if she used the money to buy a home, and promised she would. I said I believed her, and when the mediator asked if I wanted to put in the paperwork a stipulation that required her to use the money to buy a home, I said no -- I don't want to control any of her decisions anymore, and that her word was good enough for me. When then ended the mediation, we had a brief discussion outside about our son's B-day party arrangements and some other business, then parted ways.

So, question: Do you think I made a foolish choice in this offer, or do you think it was the right and/or noble thing to do? I don't expect it to bring her back (that would be foolish and selfish), but I do hope that she sees that it isn't about the money (or the control of it) for me anymore, and know that I do care about her and her future more than I do the money. This is a big 180 for me, and I think I can have more peace of mind from doing it. There is a part of me that feels like I shouldn't have to do it -- she is the one that left and didn't want to do counseling or try to work it out really, so why should she get anything? I don't know -- she has worked very hard for many years and has endured way too much emotional and psychological abuse from me during our M. I don't think money makes up for this -- nor should it -- but I think it gives her something to respect me for since I've lost it in almost all other areas."


Okay, just so everyone knows how much 50% is, it equates to about $250,000 to $300,000, and will be cash since the house is paid for in full.

Please give me honest opinions and what you think is fair, right, etc, and some reasoning too if you could. I need as many outside perspectives as I can get. I'm struggling with this decision so much.

Thanks everyone!

GD

[Heimlich]

GD,
That must be some house! Especially in Idaho!

Regarding the house, does splitting it 50/50 put you in any sort of financial bind? It sounds like you've got "leftover" inheritance money even after buying the house.

To me, if you feel like she was an equal partner in the M, financially, at least, then to me it seems fair that you split the house 50/50. Not necessarily for her, but for your kids. You want them to have a good quality of life when living with their mom. Splitting the sale of the house will go a ways toward making that happen. That's gotta make you feel good. I hear you on the OM thing. The idea of supporting, even indirectly, that guy has to gnaw at you. I can't remember what the stat is, but the vast majority of A "relationships" end. He ain't likely to be around for the long haul.

Plus, your long-term goal is still to reconcile, right? Is going back on the mediation going to help that goal?

BD