There is nothing wrong with all of your feelings. LOL at 45 minutes being enough time, you should double book for this week.
1) Even if H's feelings turn completely around, yours will take longer. I know what you mean. Of course you want it all!
2) I feel the way you do. H had the A (his actions and loss of control), but I very much let our M go, a lot of it at least. Nothing wrong with eventually telling H this. I bet it comes up during Ret weekend.
3) I do the same thing, trying to solve problems for H. Even little ones, but sometimes I end up in the way, or frustrating him. For example, I work all day Sunday and he makes a big Sunday dinner. I rush home, and try to help (by making salad, blah blah blah). Instead of him appreciating it, I was (in his eyes) in the way of him trying to do something nice for me, something he was completely capable of. Now I try to sit back and let him do things for himself. If he is frustrated with something, I step back and give him room.
4) Oh man, I know!!! I haven't read that book, but I know what you mean about not knowing how to show your love. H feels I abandoned him, by not supporting him this year. I have no idea how I did this, but I realized when I tried to help him, it wasn't the help he was needing. So he sees it as not helping him at all.
4) Oh man, I know!!! I haven't read that book, but I know what you mean about not knowing how to show your love. H feels I abandoned him, by not supporting him this year. I have no idea how I did this, but I realized when I tried to help him, it wasn't the help he was needing. So he sees it as not helping him at all.
I know that all too well! My h told me that he didn't feel respected in our marriage, but failed to elaborate on exactly what that meant. He didn't have too many concrete examples to offer, it's just a feeling he feels. It is difficult to fix behavior when there aren't any examples or instances in which you exhibited said behavior. So frustrating and of course there's always the temptation to think that he's speaking out of his ass because of the state of his A. Don't know what else to do but wait and see if he comes around.
Thanks for stopping by LWB! I appreciate your thoughts...
45 minutes...who am i kidding??!!
Me: 34 H: 39 M: 7 yrs H A 12/05-8/07
If what you say surprises me, I must have been assuming something else was true. - M. Wheatley
I began a course today at work re: communication. My heart wasn't in it at first, but I was so glad to be out of the house...I've been going stir crazy.
The first thing we looked at together was the following article. I couldn't help but think this might be useful to some of you all - it really has provided me with a different perspective on my sitch. Let me know what you all think.
Wheatley, Margaret, J. Turning to One Another: Simple Conversations to Restore Hope to the Future San Francisicso: Berret-Kohler Publishers, Inc., 2002
"Willing to Be Disturbed"
As we work together to restore hope to the future, we need to include a new and strange ally - our willingness to be disturbed. Our willingness to have our beliefs and ideas challenged by what others think. No one person or perspective can give us the answers we need to the problems of today. Paradoxically, we can only find those answers by admitting we don't know. We have to be willing to let go of our certainty and expect ourselves to be confused for a time.
We weren't trained to admit we don't know. Most of us were taught to sound certain and confident, to state our opinion as if it were true. We haven't been rewarded for being confused. Or for asking more questions rather than giving quick answers. We've also spent many years listening to others mainly to determine whether we agree with them or not. We don't have time or interest to sit and listen to those who think differently than we do.
But the world now is quite perplexing. We no longer live in those sweet, slow days when life felt predictable, when we actually knew what to do next. We live in a complex world, we often don't know what's going on, and we won't be able to understand its complexity unless we spend more time in not knowing.
It is very difficult to give up our certainties - our positions, our believes, our explanations. These help define us; they lie at the heart of our personal identity. Yet I believe we will succeed in changing this world only if we can think and work together in new ways. Curiosity is what we need. We don't have to let go of what we believe, but we do need to be curious about what someone else believes. We do need to acknowledge that their way of interpreting the world might be essential to our survival.
We live in a tense and tangled global system. Because we live in different parts of this complexity and because no two people are physically identical, we each experience life differently. It's impossible for any two people to ever see things exactly the same. You can test this out for yourself. Take any event that you've shared with others (a speech, a movie, a current event, a major problem) and ask your colleagues and friends to describe their interpretation of that event. I think you'll be amazed at how many different explanations you'll hear. Once you get a sense of diversity, try asking even more colleagues. You'll end up with a rich tapestry of interpretations that are much more interesting than any single one.
To be curious about how someone else interprets things, we have to be willing to admit that we're not capable of figuring things out alone. If our solutions don't work as well as we want them to, if our explanations of why something happened don't feel sufficient, it's time to begin asking others about what they see and think. When so many interpretations are available, I can't understand why we would be satisfied with superficial conversations where we pretend to agree with one another.
There are many ways to sit and listen for the differences. Lately, I've been listening for what surprises me. What did I just hear that startled me? This isn't easy - I'm accustomed to sitting there and nodding my head to those saying things I agree with. But when I notice what surprises me, I'm able to see my own views more clearly, including my beliefs and assumptions.
Noticing what surprises and disturbs me has been a very useful way to see invisible beliefs. If what you say surprises me, I must have been assuming something else was true. If what you say disturbs me, I must believe something contrary to you. My shock at your position exposes my own position. When I hear myself saying, "How could anyone believe something like that?" a light comes on for me to see my own beliefs. These moments are great gifts. If I can see my beliefs and assumptions, I can decide whether I still value them.
I hope you'll begin a conversation, listening for what's new. Listen as best you can for what's different, for what surprises you. See if this practice helps you learn something new. Notice whether you develop a better relationship with the person you're talking with. If you try this with several people, you might find yourself laughing in delight as you realize how many unique ways there are to be human.
We have the opportunity many times a day, everyday, to be the one who listens to others, curious rather than certain. But the greatest benefit of all is that listening moves us closer. When we listen with less judgment, we always develop better relationships with each other. It's not differences that divide us. It's our judgments about each other that do. Curiosity and good listening bring us back together.
Sometimes we hesitate to listen for differences because we don't want to change. We're comfortable with our lives, and if we listened to anyone who raised questions, we'd have to get engaged in changing things. If we don't listen, things can stay as they are and we won't have to expend any energy. But most of us do see things in our life or in the world that we would like to be different. If that's true, we have to listen more, not less. And we have to be willing to move into the very uncomfortable place of uncertainty.
We can't be creative if we refuse to be confused. Change always starts with confusion: cherished interpretations must dissolve to make way for the new. Of course it's scary to give up what we know, but the abyss is where newness lives. Great ideas and inventions miraculously appear in the space of not knowing. If we can move through the fear and enter the abyss, we are rewarded greatly. We rediscover we're creative.
As the world grows more strange and puzzling and difficult, I don't believe most of us want to keep struggling through it alone. I can't know what to do from my own narrow perspective. I know I need a better understanding of what's going on. I want to sit down with you and talk about all the frightening and hopeful things I observe, and listen to what frightens you and gives you hope. I need new ideas and solutions for the problems I care about. I know I need to talk to you to discover those. I need to learn to value your perspective, and I want you to value mine. I expect to be disturbed by what I hear from you. I know we don't have to agree with each other in order to think well together. There is no need for us to be joined at the head. We are joined by our human hearts.
Last edited by ediemarie; 08/21/0701:49 AM.
Me: 34 H: 39 M: 7 yrs H A 12/05-8/07
If what you say surprises me, I must have been assuming something else was true. - M. Wheatley
That is a good perspective. It is very true, we go around looking for people who mirror our point of view, and reject those who disagree. She places value on the different perspective and says those are the people whose ideas we need to consider. I think that is true within our relationships too. We expect the spouse to be like us, and we reject his or her "otherness". I see that as a big source of conflict. The differences between how men and women think, and how our backgrounds influence our worldviews. In the past few months I have come to accept that my husband is not my twin, and it's OK for us to not see things the same way. But I have to fight a gut instinct to tell him that he's wrong.
In the past few months I have come to accept that my husband is not my twin, and it's OK for us to not see things the same way. But I have to fight a gut instinct to tell him that he's wrong.
LOL - yes...I hear you. That's where the "surprise and being disturbed" comes in during these conversations. I like what she says here, because her point is rather than point out where they are wrong (which is so easy sometimes) just notice your surprise and realize what you can about what you believe to be true...
But sometimes they are SO wrong!
Me: 34 H: 39 M: 7 yrs H A 12/05-8/07
If what you say surprises me, I must have been assuming something else was true. - M. Wheatley
The other day a friend who is getting divorced was encouraging me to join a club that meets at night, but just once a month. I said, "no, I'm getting along well with my husband now, and if I start going out at night, he doesn't like it, and he gets grumpy." She said, "he shouldn't get grumpy. He should want you to go out and do things. You should tell him that." And I said, "what he should do doesn't matter. I know that when I go out at night, he reacts by getting grumpy. So I don't want to go out at night."
I went home and thought, that's why I'm still married and she's getting a divorce. I am willing to accomodate someone else and his feelings, and she wants the other person to react the way she thinks he should react.
That is amazing Sara. I do think that it is important to acknowledge your spouses needs/desires and then act accordingly. I don't understand why some don't think that is important. I guess your friend would prefer to be able to do as she pleases and let her H know how to feel about it...:) How many times though, in the past, have I made THAT mistake?? I am learning so much through this process and I'm grateful for that. I just wish I could have learned it an easier way - like maybe learned by reading about it rather than experiencing it first hand!
Me: 34 H: 39 M: 7 yrs H A 12/05-8/07
If what you say surprises me, I must have been assuming something else was true. - M. Wheatley
Well, I'm the daughter of a man that has had 2 affairs (that I know of - he could have had more). My parents are still together, but neither of them are happy. While my father's affairs were happening, I was in high school and college and my parents did the best they could to keep the details away from me. We never had a full blown family discussion about any of it. I have made vague references to my Mom about some things, enough for her to know that I know about OW 1 (OW used to be my dad's business partner and it was pretty obvious stuff was happening). I inadvertently found out about OW 2 from an XBF of mine - and he spoke to me about it, thinking I already knew. I don't know if my mom even knows about OW 2.
Naturally, to discover your parent's infidelity is shocking and even scarring. I was very careful in who I chose to marry - very careful - and made the decision with my heart as much as my head. I didn't want to end up like my Mom and certainly didn't want my H to end up like my Dad. Does anyone believe in self-fulfilling prophecy? Anyway, my H is well aware of my Dad's past behavior because I spoke openly about the pain it has caused me and the importance of faithfulness in marriage. But, as far as I know, my Dad is unaware that I know of any of his misdeeds. Not healthy on any level, but it is what it is, and I got too much goin on at home to worry about it.
Now that the stage is set: Last night, H decides to through himself a little pity party because several people know about his affair; his boss, his co-workers, the church people, all of our old friends, and our families. His frustration is that noone knows about my Dad's situation and none of us (me and my 2 brothers) are willing to confront my Dad because we all feel it's their relationship and we are not in any position to upset the apple cart. Well I couldn't take his complaining last night. I was so annoyed that I let him have it...yikes. I don't even remember what was said between the two of us. I remember being annoyed because he hasn't quit his job yet, but I didn't bring that up directly. Instead I said I don't even know if we'll be together in 2 months because I don't know if you can get your act together. (Nice, I know.) He said something like, I shouldn't even vent to you about anything and I said, you're right, don't vent to me about how much pain YOUR affair has caused YOU. I don't want to hear it.
Needless to say, he slept on the couch
I wasn't pleased with how the situation unfolded, but at the same time I don't know how to listen to him express his displeasure about this. He wasn't expressing that he never should have the affair. He isn't even upset that people know - he claims to like it better because he has nothing to hide - but what he's upset with is that noone knows about my Dad's affair and everyone knows about his. I'm also getting the impression that he wants me to call my Dad out on it - which is not going to happen! I don't know how to nip this in the bud or the best course of action if it happens again. Do I just listen to him and let him vent - and if so, what do I say to myself while he's doing this so that I can maintain PMA? Or do I say, "While I'm sure this is frustrating for you, I don't feel like it's my place to involve myself in my parents business"? I don't know...thoughts?
Me: 34 H: 39 M: 7 yrs H A 12/05-8/07
If what you say surprises me, I must have been assuming something else was true. - M. Wheatley
Yikes! I guess your Dad was better at hiding the affair than your husband. Is that really better?
This is a totally different topic, but it's in my head and maybe it relates. My son, 24, is driving back to New Orleans tonight, where he grew up, for the funeral of the 4th friend in less than 1 year. The boy, 26, father of 2 children, died of a drug overdose. My son ran with a pretty wild crowd, but they were all suburban kids who were raised in pretty well-to-do families. Everyone agrees that if my son had not been busted for drugs when he was 19, and spent three years in a recovery/rehab program, he would be among the dead. When discussing it with my younger son,18, tonight, S18 said it seemed like the ones who were wilder younger, and got caught were the lucky ones. The ones who never got caught did drugs until it killed them. Perceptive kid.
Which leads me to the question: Is it better to get caught? If you get caught and you have a huge blow-up, then you do something about whatever was making you so unhappy to begin with. But if you get away with it, then the marriage doesn't change, and you get to stay in an unhappy relationship for life.
So does that mean you should out your father at this late date? I think that the existential moment is long gone. It's no longer a crisis. At this point, maybe your Mom would be happy that he came back to her and never felt a need to say anything. Maybe he'll laugh about sowing some wild oats. Would your siblings really care now, if there is no threat to the relationship? Or would your Mom lose it, and hate him for life? Would it cause her everlasting anguish over something she could have lived happily without knowing? Doesn't seem valuable to bring it up at this late date.
I would never "out" my Dad. For all I know he and my mom have hashed things out and they just didn't tell us kids about it - it really isn't any of our business and I see that many parents on these boards do the best they can to hide their situations from their children. I'm so mixed about that. I knew something was happening with my folks and neither of them said anything to me about it, and even though I was a teenager/young adult, it was a very difficult time in my life to see their marriage crumbling and no one talking about it. But that was YEARS ago...and not worthy of conversation with them now.
I think it is tons better to get caught. I think living a life of transparency is so much better than living a life in the shadows. I know my H would agree with that. I guess my question is, how do you affirm or even listen without reacting to what someone is saying when it annoys the hell out of you? Is it just a matter of good ol' fashioned self control to zip the lip? Do I think about something else entirely?? Just looking for strategies, I guess.
Sara - thanks for your insight here. Wow! You guys really have been through so much as a family. Your strength is inspirational!
Me: 34 H: 39 M: 7 yrs H A 12/05-8/07
If what you say surprises me, I must have been assuming something else was true. - M. Wheatley
