Make sure that you take some time-out for yourself.
Make sure that you take some "recreation" time to "re-create" yourself.
What you are going through right now is a marathon, so don't try to run it at a sprinter's pace.
If you place everything you have, 24 hours a day, 7 days a week, into salvaging your relationship, you're going to drain yourself down to nothing.
You'll be so deep into the forest, that you won't be able to see the trees. You won't be able to see some of the obvious solutions that are sitting right before your eyes.
You deserve a break today!
Don't work harder, work smarter!
Other veterans of the DB wars, please join in!!
JJ
Read about Divorce Busting® Telephone Coaching here!
Quote: You'll be so deep into the forest, that you won't be able to see the trees. You won't be able to see some of the obvious solutions that are sitting right before your eyes.
I think this is vital. I've only just discovered how difficult it is to distance yourself; these things come slowly and you are so close you just CAN'T see.
Another thing lots of DBers say is: "Patience is your friend." Then they say: "God, give me patience. And give it to me NOW!"
I've found that there will be positive forward movement and then they will retreat for a period of time. I think this is normal because they think if things get too comfortable the R will fall back into the old, negative patterns. Expect this dance and just enjoy the positive interactions and don't dwell on the withdrawal or negative aspects.
I agree LL and you must remember that although we're hurting, they pain is even greater!
Also, their points of view, feelings, thoughts, opinions and perspectives are all very valid even if we disagree. If that is how they feel or how they remember things, that is reality.
Go back to your books, and read them again. Focus on the solutions, and not the problems. Look at your situation like an outsider might. Look at it from a "third-party's" point of view.
If you were to read your story on another person's thread, what would you suggest to them? How would you see things from a different perspective?
If you were to cast all of your emotional involvement aside, if you were to go "strictly by the book", what would you say to someone else that was facing your same situation?
JJ
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Things I did to DB my H while he was living at home and having a MLC:
· I found more ways to focus on my children and myself.
· I forced myself to stop thinking about what my H was doing and how unfair it was.
· I realized there is really nothing I could do about my H’s behavior anyway.
· I learned to state boundaries in a friendly none threatening tone. And to pick and choose those boundaries very carefully. I stated those boundaries quickly and succinctly.
· I tried to process all my emotions in a healthy way that allowed me to stay calm just about 24/7. If I became angry I broke plates against a wall to get out the anger.
· I worked on my self-esteem.
· I started going out once a week and having H watch the kids.
· I tried to stay in touch with my emotions as best as I could and release them as close to the incident as possible even if I thought I felt fine.
· I "acted as if", I was going on with my life, I gave my H some breathing room.
· I tried different 180’s.
· I became more unpredictable. One fourth of July H said he was going out. (Not spending it as a family) So I had a barbeque and invited lots of people over and celebrated without him.
· I became mysterious.
· I stopped initiating any conversation.
· I went to my room as soon as he came home.
· I laughed a lot and enjoyed my kids in my room with the door shut.
· I never made plans that included him.
· I stopped interfering and/or helping along his relationships with the kids.
· I stopped keeping him informed on the kids.
· I avoided OR talks.
· I stopped confronting him.
· I left the room first and ended conversations first.
· I was always friendly but distracted.
· I stopped defending myself.
· I listened to him ad- nauseum.
· I sat in therapy sessions and let him express his anger at me until I couldn’t do it anymore.
· I took antidepressants
· Went to counseling by myself.
· Made a list of all of my good points and talents(To remind myself of my worth)
· I took stock of what about myself could be improved and took action.
. I realized that I didn't "blow it" every time I forgot to do one of the things I listed above or lost my temper or a myriad of other little "mistakes" that I made.
. I remembered that I am human and that we humans are imperfect.
· I prayed
· I became more focused on what I had to be grateful for.
· I gave the whole situation over to God.
Notes on detachment: Detachment is a process. We detach a little at a time. You may notice that you have a drop in PMA just before you gain a new level of detachment. When dealing with a spouse in MLC, you are detaching for yourself. It is not a technique that will bring your H back into the family (though in some cases it can have that affect). Those in MLC have to complete the process in their own time frame. What we do will not usually shift that course. But, it will minimize damage. Detachment is necessary for the LBS survival. We are normally so wrapped up in our spouses that we cannot function when they leave and they cannot separate from us enough to figure out their own issues and quit focusing on us.
I constantly try to imagine that my W is not my spouse with an obligation to me, but rather a person that is out there on her own.
At first I imagined her as a babysitter or a nanny (our only contact was to pick up and drop off D).
Then I imagined her as a confused neighbour who had a lot of things to figure out on her own
She became a friend who trusted me to listen and cared for her wellbeing. I had no other expectations other than offer a friendly shoulder to that woman and to hear her out
We have moved on to being friends who started being somewhat romantically involved. I still needed to think of her as a nanny and a confused neighbour and a casual friend, while catching glimpses of something more
We are currently dear friends, perhaps more, building a new relationship on the ashes of the old one that is no more. We are talking about reconciling - and that's why it is important to still treat her as a girlfriend, who hasn't fully committed to spending the rest of her life with me.
This visualization process has greatly helped me in coping with the situation and in putting things into perspective that allows more loving detachment and less expectations. It's the unreasonable expectations that hurt us the most as they are unfulfilled by our WAS's, perhaps unintentionally.
Take the emotions out of it and start looking at this thing as objectively and pragmatically as possible.
Do what it takes to stop focusing on what's wrong and start feeling good and human and happy - regardless of what's going on around you. Challenge your normal. Face some of your fears.
Get a goal - I'm not really good at all the organization involved in these parts but I've always had a big goal (which actually had nothing to do with my M) - It's been my distant beacon when things were extra rough.
Hang in there. There is no magic wand and you gotta override the huge desire sometimes to just give up.
The old screen that used to show before you got here - right off said "they know this isn't the place to come complain about their spouse" - yet so many people do just that. I find that a great many people come here as another outlet to pour out their emotions and I think most of us who try to turn it toward Michele's stuff have been rebuked pretty hard several times an then chided by others. Because they're still stuck in that mindset of the psychological standard - THAT IS NOT MICHELE'S STYLE!!! And I'm not speaking for the lady one bit - I'm just familiar with her work and have seen her in action here on the boards on occasion. She's told people to do things that have made my jaw drop! But I've tried a few of those very things and they really do work. She's on to something people and she's providing you all tools and an outlet to do it.
I know just how hard it is and can be. I understand the need for support and venting and tears and all that other stuff - just more people need to understand that a little of that goes a LONG way and too much/habitual any of it is just more of the same and gets in the way of getting anywhere or making change. For many of us, it's the busy work we do because we don't want to do the real work. And it's socially acceptable - but it doesn't make it right or good.
So get strong (and don't feel bad or guilty for it). Get happy as much as possible. And most importantly (to me) - pretend you are an outsider in this and the situation is happening to two other people that you don't know.
You will not fail if you do this stuff. Even if your R ends - you will not fail and your SO and any kids will most likely be better off as well, somehow. Really - any of us who have truly gotten to that point will tell you that. It doesn't mean we still don't cry or get angry or fall backward a bit sometimes - it just means that we aren't captive to it - we choose to live instead and have developed the skills and new habits to make it an opitmal choice.
I keep cruising through Newcomers just to see if there's any good stuff happening here... what a good thread. This thread was a godsend to me. I got so mired into this "forest" again that I was unable to see the trees with my sitch. You forced me to think again
Here's some stuff I've done that's really been helpful to me:
- I helped a friend who's husband recently passed away to paint her new home. Physical work combined with buddying up with someone else who's experienced a loss helped me a lot. She's gone through some tremendous experiences lately (tragic death of an spouse and cancer) and her attitude has really helped me along... it's infectious. She's a really positive person and doing something for her that she couldn't do (she's still having a hard time doing really physical work) was helpful to me. I'd suggest to anyone that they buddy up with a same sex friend to accomplish something together... it's a great feeling to know you can mutually support each other.
- Updating my appearance. I never believed I was unattractive, but I realized I probably looked like the geek I am. (I wear the label geek proudly -- hey... it puts food on the table and it's a great career.) So, slowly over time as my budget could handle it, bought new clothes, changed the makeup, decided to break the contact habit and change my glasses... I shake it up between wearing a couple of pairs of different glasses and my contacts... changed the hairstyle... made sure the DB diet weight loss stuck... small things like that add up to big changes over time.
- Made it a point to meet new people outside of my normal circles. Most of my friends were work related (coworkers and clients). But I learned ways of meeting people outside of geekdom too. It broadens your perspective a lot to do that, and forces you out of self-inflicted "caves."
- I've started to learn to meditate. That helps me a lot to focus myself... although I still would like to make it a good habit yet. When I get distracted or upset, I toss this aside and begin to flounder emotionally/mentally. This requires some discipline. But... the discipline slowly returns after I tell myself to snap out of the self-pity mode.
- I write. A lot. Even though it's my "real" job. It helps me focus my thoughts... even if what I write ends up being deleted. I guess the skills I've learned to present an idea or a thought and organize the materials professionally kind of helped me there... it's helped me to know that I have an outlet for venting, thinking, organizing my thoughts when I am alone and unhappy and need to communicate. I learned I am my own best listener
Here's a quote from Phoenix from another thread. I love this lady!!
Quoting Phoenix: I think mostly the big battle left for you is with yourself. Getting to the point where your R with him is your choice instead of your emotional need.
So, what does this mean to you? Do you know the difference between choice and need?
Have you really made the "choice" yet?
JJ
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I really love this thread! I have to come back and read it often. Kansha's post is particularly helpful in my sitch. It is so hard to back away, and let go of your WAS, but you HAVE to if you are going to survive. The part about the drop in PMA before you reach a new level of detachment is so true to. And knowing that helps you get through the down days. Keep adding nuggets of knowledge! I will be checking back! Josa
Hi Jamesjohn, sg; sorry to hijack this thread, but could someone take a look at Mica's thread and give some advice? I agree with Phoenix about what this BB is for and, although I do use it to vent and have received great support, the DB principles are still being applied here as much as I can.
I have tried directing Mica to Michele's threads, and asked her if she's read the books or set goals etc but nothing seems to happen. I don't know how to help this one!
is it wrong of me to ask what the status is of kansha just because i am curious? some of the stuff she is doing is really tough. i never regretted not having children but another person around here would be helpful. this is a great thread. i feel i made that decision about loving my h thats what gives me strength. jz
Hi JJ, Justed wanted to stop by and say thanks again. You are right love is a decision. I have struggled with that thought these last seven months--and I imagine I will continue to struggle with it at times. Still have along way to go--but starting to take those baby steps. Have to find a way to tell my w that love is a decision and not a feeling. Thanks once again. PKD
Would someone tell my H that, please? That his 'love' for OW is a choice? That he could have made a choice to stay with me and work on us? He thinks he had no choice.
Anyway - I stay with my first nugget - patience is your friend. Be patient with your SO, and yourself. Mary
Here's a quote from Soupman from another thread. This was so good I thought it should be shared with all.
If you go back and read the success stories here on the board you'll find they all contain the following elements...
-- successful DBers cherish their spouse and show a great deal of compassion. THey almost always keep their pain to themselves... they "act as if" things are normal in their life. -- successful DBers are outstanding listeners. They let their spouse do 80% of the talking when there is dialog. When they speak they speak 'lovingly' with candor and honesty. -- successful DBers validate their spouse's feelings even when they disagree with them. -- successful DBers have clarity about their life and their goals. -- successful DBers make a commitment to be in this for the long-term. They know that this will take time. So they become the master of patience. They make time their friend. -- successful DBers also make sure they focus on themselves in every way.
One of the thinhs that I have realized is: Never, ever argue with a WAS. Whatever they said, validate their feelings eventough you do not agree with what they say. Remember, you may win the battle with arguments, but you will lose the war. I will go far to say, you need to change the way you speak to a WAS. Speak softly as possible and talk less. Let them do all the talking, it's a good way for them to feel at ease.
Here's something from the most "wisest" of us all!!!
Quoting Michele: Thank you all for your kind words! As usual, I appreciate it.
Rjoin, I know it's hard to be nice when you're angry. First of all, if you haven't, you need to read the books everyone else has read around here. Start with Divorce Remedy if you haven't read it yet. It will help you understand what's happening and make it easier for you to behave in a way that is more likely to help you reach your own goal.
One of the biggest mistakes people make is to place too much emphasis on what you're feeling at the moment. feelings are just emotions that come and go. They are triggered by events and thoughts that you are having. It's important to be in touch with your feelings, but it's even more important to realize two things. First, your feelings often misguide you. They're not always right and shouldn't be your guiding light. Secondly, your feelings don't have to dictate your actions. YOu can feel a certain way and make a conscious decision to act another way.
We do this all the time. For example, when my kids were little, I didn't always feel like reading them bedtime stories because i was tired or preoccupied. But because i wanted to be a good mom, I ignored my feelings and read anyway. In other words, I had a goal- to be a good mom- and I made a conscious decision to ignore my feelings that would have led me off the path to my goal.
You can do exactly the same thing. You can feel resentment about your husband's bad choices but realize that your resentment will push him farther away and therefore choose to act differently. Yes, it's hard at first, but it gets easier with practice. So, practice. Practice makes perfect, well, not exactly perfect. But it makes DBing a whole lot easier.
Hang in there. Michele
JJ
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Larry and Jo Ann were an ordinary couple. They lived in an ordinary house on an ordinary street. Like any other ordinary couple, they struggled to make ends meet and to do the right things for their children.
They were ordinary in yet another way - they had their squabbles. Much of their conversation concerned what was wrong in their marriage and who was to blame.
Until one day when a most extraordinary event took place.
"You know, Jo Ann, I've got a magic chest of drawers. Every time I open them, they're full of socks and underwear," Larry said. "I want to thank you for filling them all these years."
Jo Ann stared at her husband over the top of her glasses. "What do you want, Larry?"
"Nothing. I just want you to know I appreciate those magic drawers."
This wasn't the first time Larry had done something odd, so Jo Ann pushed the incident out of her mind until a few days later.
"Jo Ann, thank you for recording so many correct check numbers in the ledger this month. You put down the right numbers 15 out of 16 times. That's a record."
Disbelieving what she had heard, Jo Ann looked up from her mending. "Larry, you're always complaining about my recording the wrong check numbers. Why stop now?"
"No reason. I just wanted you to know I appreciate the effort you're making."
Jo Ann shook her head and went back to her mending. "What's got into him?" she mumbled to herself.
Nevertheless, the next day when Jo Ann wrote a check at the grocery store, she glanced at her checkbook to confirm that she had put down the right check number. "Why do I suddenly care about those dumb check numbers?" she asked herself.
She tried to disregard the incident, but Larry's strange behavior intensified.
"Jo Ann, that was a great dinner," he said one evening. "I appreciate all your effort. Why, in the past 15 years I'll bet you've fixed over 14,000 meals for me and the kids."
Then "Gee, Jo Ann, the house looks spiffy. You've really worked hard to get it looking so good." And even "Thanks, Jo Ann, for just being you. I really enjoy your company."
Jo Ann was growing worried. "Where's the sarcasm, the criticism?" she wondered.
Her fears that something peculiar was happening to her husband were confirmed by 16-year-old Shelly, who complained, "Dad's gone bonkers, Mom. He just told me I looked nice. With all this makeup and these sloppy clothes, he still said it. That's not Dad, Mom. What's wrong with him?"
Whatever was wrong, Larry didn't get over it. Day in and day out he continued focusing on the positive.
Over the weeks, Jo Ann grew more accustomed to her mate's unusual behavior and occasionally even gave him a grudging "Thank you." She prided herself on taking it all in stride, until one day something so peculiar happened, she became completely discombobulated:
"I want you to take a break," Larry said. "I am going to do the dishes. So please take your hands off that frying pan and leave the kitchen."
(Long, long pause.) "Thank you, Larry. Thank you very much!"
Jo Ann's step was now a little lighter, her self-confidence higher and once in a while she hummed. She didn't seem to have as many blue moods anymore. "I rather like Larry's new behavior," she thought.
That would be the end of the story except one day another most extraordinary event took place. This time it was Jo Ann who spoke.
"Larry," she said, "I want to thank you for going to work and providing for us all these years. I don't think I've ever told you how much I appreciate it."
Larry has never revealed the reason for his dramatic change of behavior no matter how hard Jo Ann has pushed for an answer, and so it will likely remain one of life's mysteries. But it's one I'm thankful to live with. You see, I am Jo Ann. --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
JJ
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While waiting to pick up a friend at the airport in Portland, Oregon, I had one of those life-changing experiences that you hear other people talk about -- the kind that sneaks up on you unexpectedly.
This one occurred a mere two feet away from me. Straining to locate my friend among the passengers deplaning through the jetway, I noticed a man coming toward me carrying two light bags. He stopped right next to me to greet his family. First he motioned to his youngest son (maybe six years old) as he laid down his bags. They gave each other a long, loving hug. As they separated enough to look in each other's face, I heard the father say, "It's so good to see you, son. I missed you so much!" His son smiled somewhat shyly, averted his eyes and replied softly, "Me, too, Dad!"
Then the man stood up, gazed in the eyes of his oldest son (maybe nine or ten) and while cupping his son's face in his hands said, "You're already quite the young man. I love you very much, Zach!" They too hugged most loving, tender hug. While this was happening, a baby girl (perhaps one or one-and-a-half) was squirming excitedly in her mother's arms, never once taking her little eyes off the wonderful sight of her returning father. The man said, "Hi, baby girl!" as he gently took the child from her mother. He quickly kissed her face all over and then held her close to his chest while rocking her from side to side. The little girl instantly relaxed and simply laid her head on his shoulder, motionless in pure contentment.
After several moments, he handed his daughter to his oldest son and declared, "I've saved the best for last!" and proceeded to give his wife the longest, most passionate kiss I ever remember seeing. He gazed into her eyes for several seconds and then silently mouthed. "I love you so much!" They stared at each other's eyes, beaming big smiles at one another, while holding both hands. For an instant they reminded me of newlyweds, but I knew by the age of their kids that they couldn't possibly be.
I puzzled about it for a moment then realized how totally engrossed I was in the wonderful display of unconditional love not more than an arm's length away from me. I suddenly felt uncomfortable, as if I was invading something sacred, but was amazed to hear my own voice nervously ask, "Wow! How long have you two been married? "Been together fourteen years total, married twelve of those." he replied, without breaking his gaze from his lovely wife's face. "Well then, how long have you been away?" I asked. The man finally turned and looked at me, still beaming his joyous smile. "Two whole days!" Two days? I was stunned.
By the intensity of the greeting, I had assumed he'd been gone for at least several weeks if not months. I know my expression betrayed me. I said almost offhandedly, hoping to end my intrusion with some semblance of grace (and to get back to searching for my friend), "I hope my marriage is still that passionate after twelve years!"
The man suddenly stopped smiling. He looked me straight in the eye, and with forcefulness that burned right into my soul, he told me something that left me a different person. He told me, "Don't hope, friend... decide!"
Then he flashed me his wonderful smile again, shook my hand and said, "God bless!" With that, he and his family turned and strode away together. I was still watching that exceptional man and his special family walk just out of sight when my friend came up to me and asked, "What'cha looking at?"
Without hesitating, and with a curious sense of certainty, I replied, "My future!"
Dream what you want to be.................. Make a decision where you want to go...................... Be committed to it and be what you wanted to be........ Because you have this precious life and chance to do all the things you want in life.......!
"The more you work the program, the more the program will work for you."
The situation that you're in right now, especially as a newcomer, is probably one of the most difficult, most emotionally-charged situations that you've ever faced. Although you may feel that you need to "react" and respond to this situation "right now", doing so blindly may only hold you back in your efforts.
When you first got your book, did you go back to the index pages, and look for advice on your particular situation?! I must admit that I did! Many "self-help" books that I've read are layed out so they have some very specific "answers" to very specific "problems". They work on a "one-size-fits-all" theory, which, although it might make them "popular" at the bookstand, it doesn't always help to make them "effective".
Even though all of us here have some things in common, each of our situations is unique. On the other hand, although our situations are unique, the answers to our problems will usually have one thing in common: learning how to be solution-oriented.
Take care to not skip over any of the "methods" here, or any of the chapters in the books, thinking that they don't apply to you. You might find something "hidden" in them that will give you some ideas on how you can help create positive changes in your relationship.
Don't work harder, work smarter!
JJ
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Here's some wisdom from Trying24now that she posted on JPDW's thread that I thought belongs here, too!!
Quoting Trying24now: JP
Quoting : I'm just afraid that I'll be going through what T2 went through when her H tried to come home too early. And that I have a LOT more pain and waiting to go through before H and I will REALLY get our marriage back together on a strong foundation
Then DON'T....
Here are some of the things I did during Hs and my 1st attempt to reconcile that RAN him back out of the house.
I was whiny (literally I cried over everything from a glance to a "cold hearted word")
I hounded him constantly about his whereabouts and no matter what he answered I'd 'act as if' he was lying. I was trying to show him that he couldn't be trusted.
I searched his car for evidence of a continued A. (found nothing but he knew I'd done it and of course resented that)
I checked his cell phone after he went to sleep at night and wrote down all the numbers into and out and then checked them on the reverse phone number web site. I made myself nuts doing this, never found another womans #, but did continued to make myself nuts doing it anyway.
I threw his A and my fear in his face on an almost daily basis.
I kept myself so paranoid and miserable that I BUILT a case against him even with no "proof" or indication that there really was a reason to.
I teetered between clingy and cold.
I pushed for "intimacy" in a way that made HIM feel like he had to prove something to me. (It made him nuts, but I kept pushing anyway)
I did everything wrong that you can imagine. I sabatoged my own reconciliation with my fear, neediness and need for "pay back."
So, if YOU'RE happy that he's back, and you're REALLY looking to renew your M...DON'T do any of the stuff that I did or your attempt at reconciliation will implode. T2
LOL PS: Just re-read my post and had to laugh, seeing that all in writing made me think...geez, no wonder it didn't work and no wonder he's gun shy about coming home again. I'd be gun shy too if I knew there was a chance that I'd have to endure all that crap for another 4 months.
JJ
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JJ, Good thread! Yes, it is getting easier. The more I keep doing it the easier it gets!
Quote: Don't forget to smile like you know something that no one else does.
I do feel like I know something that some people don't! That I'm making a decision,a choice to hang in there and wait for my H to go through the MLC tunnel. I now empathize what he is going through. And even though I have a few friends that think "I've lost it" I haven't. We all make mistakes and if my H is willing to forgive me for the bad choices I have made, I'm willing to forgive him for his. We have made the decision NOT to get a D, but we are still separated, I know I'm not ready for my H to come home until he is ready to make a commitment to our marriage. We are becoming friends again and are starting to feel comfortable around each other. There are times, things he does irritate me. But, I hold them down and talk them down inside me. Patience is something I'm going to get good at. And I'm learning to forgive now. I feel good about myself, because I'm learning to control my inner self (down boys!)My H still is seeing the OW, but now even this doesn't irritate me. I just think of it as "he has to do what he has to do" He has to figure this one out on his own. Deb
I don't seem to be having *any* luck DB'ing, and am starting to think the M is hopeless, and thinking about giving up. There are just certain things I don't know how to deal with. My W attitude has changed SO much.
My W wants a D, and wants me to file. EVERY time we talk, she brings it up. We've now agreed that I will file within the next month. But I'm clueless as to how to act between now and then. Any pointers???
A few things.
First, since you are aware of her EA with online guy, let that topic die. Unless she brings it up, just forget about OM. If she does bring it up, then sit back, let her talk, and listen. You might have to let the thing with OM play out in its entirety, so relax and be prepared to have your patience tested to its absolute limit.
Second, it might have been a mistake to tell her you will file for D. Your best bet would have been to have her do it under the pretense that you would like to see the marriage work out. Since you have already agreed to file, you might want to tell her that the communication needs to be better between the two of you if you are going to work out any differences due to the upcoming (hopefully not) divorce proceedings and the money issues. USE THIS TIME WISELY. View this as a window of opportunity to communicate with her and use some new skills for interacting with her without starting an arguement or fight. Be calm and poised, always.
Third, from an outside perspective, I don't think your sitch is as bad as it appears. Learn to control your actions and emotions. I've said it many times, but the person in the relationship who controls themself the best always has the edge even though it may not be apparently so.
JJ
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Poster: imalright12960
Subject: Re: Know what you want!
Quote: T2holding on, the sane1,
Thank you for all your support. Been reading the DR book and that makes a difference! You must picture a future with your spouse! That is the only way to be successful, picturing the final result.
I am doing wonderful and my goal is to keep my PMA up. I know I will have bad days, but I hope they will be less. I am in MLC and find I'm in the last stage, closing the doors one by one. I only have a couple left to close, thank God. I do believe my H is going through the last stages too. I am here whenever he feels the need to be around me. I'm going to sit on the curb and wait for him, but keep living my life too. We each had to go through this journey, the first part together and now on our own. We will reunite in the end as I know this is my destiny! So picture your destiny, breath it, dream it, the more you do the more you will believe it will happen. And then all of a sudden you will be there actually doing.
Deb
JJ
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An old Cherokee told his grandson about a battle that was going on inside himself.
"My son, it is between two wolves. One is evil: anger, envy, sorrow, regret, greed, arrogance, guilt, resentment, inferiority, lies, false pride, superiority and ego."
"The other is good: joy, peace, love, hope, serenity, humility, kindness, benevolence, empathy, generosity, truth, compassion and faith."
The grandson thought about it and then asked, "Which wolf wins?"
Yer spouse is looking for someone who will listen to them without trying to control them. If you don't, they will turn to someone who will. Don't offer fixes or try to coerce your spouse into leaving their relationship with OM/OW. And never badmouth the OM/OW.
The idea is to create as large of a 'safety zone' for your spouse as possible. A zone where your spouse feels comfortable talking to you about anything. A zone in which you can further fight for your cause by displaying the changes you have made to yourself. This is much easier to do if you are on good speaking terms with your spouse.
Stay away from saying things that give the walkaway the impression that its OK for them to f*ck around on you with OM/OW. Things such as: "I hope you have a wonderful life with him(her)", If you love him(her), then maybe you should be with him(her)", "Do you love him(her)?", etc... Avoid using OM/OW's name when you speak to your spouse. Basically, speak to them like OM/OW does not exist. I guarantee your spouse will find it very odd that you totally look past OM/OW.
Things you can say: "I hope you find the happiness you are looking for", "Anyone would be lucky to have you", "I appreciate you being so open and honest with me".
Peace,
Greg
JJ
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Here's something really great that MAL posted on another thread! "Solution-oriented" in action!!
Quote: Cathy, I had a similar experience with a coworker years ago.
He used to say things to irritate me, simply because he know he could get to me. I would respond with some smart comment. I tried ignoring him. I tried defending myself. I tried to put him down. Nothing worked, and he kept doing it...making me more mad and more miserable. He would always find something bigger or better to say. After awhile, work became miserable for me.
I didn't want to complain to my manager, because it seemed childish to do so. So the insults and ridicule continued.
During a Pyschology class one night, I mentioned this, and the teacher gave me some advice...
The next morning, this guy started in on me as normal.... Instead of ignoring him or saying something back, I got real quiet...walked across the room to his desk where he was sitting. I walked up to him, leaned over, and gave him a very big hug.
Then I said "G*****, I love you, and I'm glad you work here in our office."
He was speechless! All he could do was giggle this stupid giggle he used to have.
You know what? He never joked me after that day.
If I had known it was that simple, I would have done that long ago.
Do something different!
JJ
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Don't let your DB or DR books sit around and collect dust!
Make it a point to pick them up every once in awhile, and read through them again and again. As your situation changes, you'll more than likely find something in them that you may have missed before.
JJ
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you want advice from someone who is trying to figure out how to save their marriage themselves. DBing has saved already saved my marriage; my 14th anniversary is 2/24/04.
The point of this thread is this, read Michele's books and apply it. Read the best of threads that are at the start of the FOR NEWCOMERS in the Open Forums.
Read the threads bumped by the old-timers, they've seen it all before, same questions, same fears, same panic, same mistakes different circumstances.
I noticed that many of the threads that Michele and James John have fixed at the top of this forum have only 1000 or 2000 views yet their have been over 300,000 posts in this forum (probably 4,000,000 plus views as well in just this forum alone!!). Those threads should be among the most viewed threads on the boards but they are not.
Our natural tendency is to come to this forum and write about our problem and seek help for our specific situation which, in and of itself is not bad. However, the more one reads Michele's written words as well as those threads that have volumes of lessons learned through agonizing experiences, the quicker that reader can minimize their own pain of learning the hard way like so many of us have.
It is good to make friends and get support on your thread, and I cannot emphasize that enough, BUT read those threads Michele and Jamesjohn have sitting at the top and you will not regret it. (If it helps, do like many of us did and copy and print the best stuff and reference it often).
As an fyi,I have pasted my link from last year as my wife and I celebrated our 13th anniversary just to share some thoughts which are not new or unique, but helpful to some, I hope. Celebrated 13 years of marriage this week!
JJ, thanks for the compliment. One way to become “good” at something is to make a lot of mistakes until they penetrate one’s thick skull- that’s how I learned.
I agree with you about the KLA group enough to change my signature line- I hope many get the tapes/CDs and join the group, they won’t be sorry.
Committed2Him- "C2H" All Things (Back from Spain!)...18
Pursuer/Distancer is a dynamic that is present in alot of relationships. My realization of this started in much the same way of alot of folks here.
As my relationship was deep sixing, I was pursuing W big time. I was after her about everything. I responded to all her comments quickly. Sexually, I was after her every night. I was sitting at home waiting around for her arrival. SHE HATED IT.
My realization that I was pushing her away came in waves. 1st thing DBing made me realize was to stop all the crap that was having a negative affect. Not slow it down, stop it! This realization came in the 1st wave. I pretty much retreated into my cave. I basically started leaving her alone until I could devise a new plan. This wave was the beginning of the end of my pursuit.
About the same time, other personal issues were coming to light for me. I harbored alot of anger and resentment in general. Some of it came from my past. Some of it came from my R with W. I resented her for not giving as much as I had given to the R. She was not what I thought a good mother should be. I did'nt say these things to her, but I guess it began to show in our daily interactions. Never forget, resentment begets lack of respect. This issue had little to do with pursuer/distancer but is important to show how seemingly small issues can build on each other and build on themselves over time. I had to let go of this resentment thing or all would be lost. It is impossible to save your M if your harboring resentment.
The next wave came after several angels started telling me the same thing. I may be slow but I'm not an idiot. The words I was hearing were that I was putting way to much effort into the R. I was trying to support it on my shoulders, thus releiving W of her responsibility. Even Michele saw it after a 30 second conversation with me and W. The lightbulb clicked on and I immediately started to back down on all fronts. I stopped iniating conversations with W that had anything to do with us. I started mysteriously going out at night or coming home late from work. I always let her know I was going out but remained dim about the details. If she pressed me I would stay dim and tell her I had some thinking to do.
The more I backed away, the more W stepped up to the plate. This realization was the final wave. Pursuer/distancer dynamic was a heavy duty tool in my DB tool belt.
This will not be true for all. However the process of discovery is the same for all. It's hard work to recover your wits and start experimenting with different techniques, but you gotta do it. If none of it works, don't presume your a failure. If your spouse has hardened their heart to you, you may have to wait for a while. Time usually changes things. Intense situations almost always return to calm. Patience is the greatest virtue one can adopt.
Sorry for being long winded.
kent
JJ
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You mentioned being laxed in the ILY department. I think you should casually bring it back into the relationship as a 180. Start simple. When he calls and you are saying goodbye (and "thank you for calling")simply throw in Love ya. (quickley at the end). Anytime he is leaving the home and says goodbye, do the same. Bring it up a notch as time goes by "Love ya babe". Then in time "Love you Honey" or whatever pet name you give him, until you get to where you want to be "I love you" (with good eye contact). Don't expect to get responses to your ILY's, but be consistant anyway.
He mentioned he cannot bear to be around you and stays away. You need to do something that will make him feel welcome and appreciated when he does come home. No nagging of time or places. Just "I'm glad you are home" and mean it. Try subtle touches in passing. (Even when he flinches) Rethink your behavior and what got you here. Have you acknowledged what he does instead of what he does not? Start picking out the positives, (like how wonderful he is with his son)and mention them to him. Try to make him feel important and needed and he is number one. The same way you would like to feel.
JJ
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Hi Jamejohn--Found this section very helpful. I am been DB on and off again for 18 months. Can see that I need to remember that this is a marathon and not even a 5K. Appreciate the hard work you put into the board. PKDII
Mallin,
You use the word "limbo", but it seems there is progress being made. You are making positive changes for yourself AND your R and she is taking noticeable, small steps toward your R. However, this waiting is driving you nuts, right?
Let me tell you what I hear from spouses that have decided to leave, but then see their partner make amazing positive changes. First, the WAW or WAH tend to believe the changes are just a ploy to keep them from leaving – they don’t believe these are real changes. Then after some time, they still don’t trust the changes but begin to get curious, maybe even hopeful that their spouse’s changes are real – but they are still very “on guard” with their feelings. At this point, they are usually not willing to admit they notice the changes or appreciate them. They need more time to believe in the changes. They may even distance or create conflict somehow to “test” the new improved changes in their spouse – to see if they're authentic. Or, this could be a time when the WAW or WAH respond in some positive behavior, but as already noted, are not yet ready to verbally acknowledge these changes.
Then, at some point, possibly many months, they begin to trust and enjoy the changes. They may verbalize their appreciation or simply be more hopeful and responsive in their actions.
Michele offers a great overview of how changes get put into place and progress is slowly made in the DR chapter called, “Pulling it All Together”. I believe those would be very helpful to reread. (Notice that “Carol’s” example covered of over at least one year.)
Mallin, I’d encourage you to be patient. And, I know there are many on this site that have gone through this and will verify how important it is to plan on changes happening very slowly and to hold onto your patience. I wish you well, Laurie
JJ
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Quote: If you place everything you have, 24 hours a day, 7 days a week, into salvaging your relationship, you're going to drain yourself down to nothing.
You'll be so deep into the forest, that you won't be able to see the trees. You won't be able to see some of the obvious solutions that are sitting right before your eyes.
YES, this is true. I am doing a lot of things for myself, BUT, often, without realizing it, I get myself into an 'obsess aabout the relationship mode' and next thing I know I am on thee boards almost 24/7 and the pain of the break-up starts hammering me without letup.
Then I read something like this and 'take' my life back'
Tonite, I started Ballroom Dancing and for the hour and 15 min. I was there I completely forgot about my sitch and actually enjoyed myself!
I can go to Ballroom dancing 3-4 times a week so I am going to do that for now. Tonite I learned to waltZ, Salsa and Swing. This is something I have wanted to do for years. Thank you JJ for the reminder to focus on me so as not to burn out. I was at the end today until I went to Ballroom class in the evening. I feel refreshed emotionally and I now have something that I look forward to rather than waiting for the 'ohone to ring' .
"Venting" can be a great release for your emotions, and can often help you to get things off your chest, and back to a place of calmness. The people on the board here are fantastic for listening, and can be very compassionate to you, as they can understand most of what you're going through.
However, TOO much venting ain't gonna take you to the place you need to be. Don't get too lost in your feelings, and don't dwell in them too long. They're bound to lead you astray, and you'll get nowhere.
Focus on using the basic techniques that Michele has taught us. That's what most of all the "success stories" around here have done. Vent as you must, but also ask yourself what you can "do" next to help you move forward in your efforts. Don't get stuck in doing the same thing over and over again. Concentrate on being "solution-focused".
JJ
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I saw this little nugget that midwest wrote, and thought that it belonged here!!
Quote: Think expectations for a minute. You know how H never meets them. Think about our expectations as preplanned resentments. HMMM. So if we let go of the expectations then we won't resent them. Or be unhappy with us for not meeting our own expectations. What do you think??
"preplanned resentments"
Wow, I like that! Sort of puts a whole different twist on things for me, how about you?!
JJ
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I agree. Excellent advice. I know I've been crushed when expectations are not met or become mad at my ex-W. Our spouse isn't required to meet our needs.
But on the other hand I think it does somewhat go with the DB territory. We "act as if" everything is going to go swimmingly and then if it doesn't we are bound to have some negativity about that.
In the end, it's not the years in your life that count. It's the life in your years. Abraham Lincoln
It is hard to fail, but it is worse never to have tried to succeed. Theodore Roosevelt
But on the other hand I think it does somewhat go with the DB territory. We "act as if" everything is going to go swimmingly and then if it doesn't we are bound to have some negativity about that.
"Acting as if" everything is dandy doesn't need expectations to be met. If everything was indeed going fine, then we wouldn't have to act as if they were, so when things don't go fine... that's a given. Whether expectations would've been met or not, one is still able to "act as if" everything's just fine.
If negativity sets in because expectations aren't met, that's where detachment comes into play so as not to have that kind of emotional reaction - and not having expectations, of course.
Great thread. About the venting. Well this place has helped me alot. But sometimes you let things sit inside of you for too long and then they can come out at you in a bad way. Now in my sitch I could yell at my WAW for a long time, and it wouldn't get me anywhere. But I really don't have an outlet to blow steam off.
So when I get angry I quickly right down what I'm angry about in my journal. Then put it aside. No long explanations. Then at night I go and type out a long rant letter to my WAW putting down all those stupid things you might say and could never take back from a moment of anger. When I'm done writing the letter I print it out. I read it, then tear it up, and then delete the file.
And after I do that it feels like a giant load has been taken off of my shoulders, and I feel mentally free. Just my .02
Quote: What is the difference in looking for answers than looking for solutions?
Looking for answers vs looking for solutions.
You driving your car and you get a flat tire. You get out and:
A. Stand there staring at the flat tire, looking for an answer. What caused the tire to go flat? The answer may not be so obvious. Loose valve stem? Picked up a nail in the road? Rim leak? Could be one of many reasons but you're wasting time and not moving forward.
B. Think of a solution that will enable to continue on your way. What can I do to make this situation better. The solution is obvious, change the tire and go on your merry way. You'll find the answer later at the service station.
JJ
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To listen – to actively listen and show that I care about what I’m hearing even if I don’t agree with it. If I don't listen, he'll stop talking.
To give space – he is not leaving me or cheating on me just because he wants to go and have a few drinks with friends and I am not invited.
To no be clingy – to give affection an attention is one thing, to NEED his company to make me feel better is not right.
To understand “my” schedule isn’t everyone else’s – if I need him to do something it does not mean that he is going to do it in the same time frame I would have done it in
To allow change and to change – at work I am in constant change, in a constant state of learning, my relationship should be like that too. Always learning and changing in new ways to make it better.
To let things go – does it really matter that he let the kids have desert even though they didn’t finish all their dinner? Does it really matter that he can’t seem to remember to throw the empty tissue box away?
Everything isn’t about me – if he’s upset, it doesn’t have to be because I did or didn’t do something and he’s mad. Even when he’s short with me, it doesn’t have to be about me. He’ll let me know when he has a problem with me, other than that I shouldn’t assume I’m at blame.
I should have a R and a life – they are not the same thing, a R is part of having a life, not life itself
Happiness comes from me – I am responsible for my happiness, not my XH, not my kids, not my family or friends. I am and it’s up to me to keep myself happy.
A happier me = a happier R – when I am happy and in a good mood it spreads to those around me, including XH. Therefore if I am happier, my XH will be happier, my R will be happier, my life will be happier. It’s a circle that I control.
It’s okay to have a bad day – Bad days happen. Bad things happen. All I can do is deal with them as they come the best I can.
JJ
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quote: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- One easy thing to start is to find a topic w likes to talk about that is not too personal or emotionally charged. For my w it was her office politics. Then you listen closely as she talks--really, really listen and you'll learn a whole lot about her emotional world--the things that piss her off and make her happy & you'll get to hear how she reacts to various things, but you have to really engage and be present in these conversations. When she mentions things that will happen in the future, make a mental note of them and ask her about them later on. Find strands of topics that you can bring up again to show your involvement in the conversation. Try to enter or "feel into" the feelings she describes. Don't try to solve anything and never even offer any advice unless it is very specifically asked for and don't ever correct her or tell her she's wrong. Just shut up and listen with your whole body and not just your head.
JJ
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(From Sheri) The distance is mostly why my H had an affair -- I wasn't there for him. So I'm starting to get confused on what I really need to do. On the other hand, I've always been available to him. I'm no longer available - I sometimes don't answer the phone, if I know he is calling, I take the phone off the hook, ect. But now I feel that he is drifting further away. I should do what my gut tells me, since every person is different. I just don't want to make this situation any worse then it is. Sheri
(From ILM) Sheri, it is not the distance why they have an affair. If you were, say, sick, or away from home ar work, or busy -- this is all what makes them/us see it as an obstacle and want the company even more.
You were available for him and he still had an affair -- perhaps, there was something else, like hostility, in you beeng there for him? And something more important than simply physical presence was missing?
What makes them feel abandoned, deprived of love, unappreciated is something else -- when you withold your love as a punishment, or abandon them when you have choice and when they say "please, stay, I need you now" -- but you don't care about it and go where it's more interesting. It is also when you don't talk as friends -- most of us seem to go throught the same, lack of time, kids, careers -- and all of a sudden we discover that we live in a house with a roomamate, noticing his.her presence only when he/she does something "wrong" -- then we open the moth to say something nasty.
What works to bring others closer is when you stay far enough to be not annoying and remain close enough to be there for them when they feel they want to talk or just be with you.
As one good friend of mine (and women, friends, children, dogs -- all always seek his company, and he is very warm and caring but never intrusive) put it once: "The secret is to show that you're interested but don't really "need" it".
In other words, when you keep the distamce, make sure it is a friendly distance: when you don't answer teh phone, he doesn't need to know that you did it on purpose, all he has to know is that you were not there -- what a pity!
When in doubt, always imagine yourself in his shoes: if you knew that he doesn't answer the phone on purpose, that when you try to reach out, he pushes you away -- would you continue your attempts to establish a contact, especially, it you were not very interested? And now imagine the opposite: when you are trying to reach him, there are obstacles, and very friendly he says that he would really like to get together (== he has no bad felings toward you), but what a pity! he has to be somewhere else instead. Keeping you in limbo -- if there is always a promise on the other end but obstacles to overcome, doesn't it make the desired things even more desired?
Again -- TWO steps forward, ONE step back -- not vice versa.
JJ
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Question: Do you love her & want to make things work?
If you do, I would not allow your anger (which is understandable that you have now), influence how you treat her at this time. I know it must be hard living in the same home, yet 'separate'. If you really love her & want to work things out, I WOULD NOT WITHHOLD SUPPORT from her. This would be an angry & retaliatory action. No way she could perceive it otherwise. Read some other threads on here. Read especially the success stories. See what has worked for others. From what I have seen, several key things that seem to have turned around others relationships are:
1. LOVINGLY detatch & give them space.
2. Work on yourself - treat yourself good. Go out & do things you enjoy, work out, get involved in a hobby or take a class, dress nicely according to your taste...on & on. If you feel you have things you need to work out - consider counseling w/ an SBT counselor in your area.
3. Read & practice DBing.
4. Offer your friendship, w/o expecting anything in return. Be there for her if she comes to you for help, or a shoulder to lean on.
5. After reading DBing, identify YOUR more of the same behaviors. Remind yourself of the results...STOP that & replace it w/ new behavior that works. Make a plan for how you will deal w/ situations as they arise.
6. Let her know you love her & want to work things out - but once you have stated that - leave it alone.
7. SHOW her - don't tell her - you are changing.
8. Continue to come to this BB.
9. Build yourself a network of support: this BB, family, friends - & use it!
10. Be thankful for 'baby steps' of progress.
11. Be consistent - when she starts to notice change, it's important that she gets a chance to see that it will be lasting.
12. Reward her efforts & good behavior, WITH A REWARD SHE WILL LIKE.
DON'T:
1. Push her to make a decision, let her come to that point.
2. Don't repeat yourself, or repeat requests for change.
3. Don't cry, beg, plead or do anything else to sound desperate.
4. Don't make unnecessary contact w/ her - she will interpret this as pushing / chasing.
5. Don't respond to her in anger, or w/ bitterness (instead respond in love).
6. Don't let her push your buttons (more of the same behavior) You will need to ID your buttons & how she pushes them, & be prepared w/ a NEW response.
7. Don't sit around & feel sorry for yourself (I know, easier said than done). When you do - pick yourself up & do something!
8. Don't expect results overnight, it took time to get where you are, & will take time to correct it.
9. Don't give up!
10. If you backslide (which I think we all do) don't let it get you down...just identify your mistake, make a new plan for how to avoid it in the future, & go on!
JJ
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A method I have used is to allot only a certain time each day to the "situation". I only think in a concentrated manner about my wife when I run. I try to limit my thinking to costructive thoughts only. You know, like how would I feel if I were her, putting myself in her place so I will be in a mental state to empathize with her rather than present my own needy feelings. Anytime during the day that my mind begins go to my situation I immediately switch to a part of myself that I am trying to develop. For instance, if my mind wanders to what my wife may be doing or thinking I try to take a physically active step towards something upon which I am working. I will usually go hug my son for no reason whatsover. I am working on showing more love. So instead of allowing my mind to go where it shouldn't, I take a physical (a physical activity occupies both the mind and the body) action in the direction of an area in which I wish to improve. If I can't do the physical action, I will always do a mental action.
This has worked for me very well but it has taken time to develop my mind to switch in such a manner.
You may wish to try this. Let me know if it works or share anything with me that you may come up with.
David
JJ
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Eliminate resentment and negativity from your life. Nothing will kill an R faster. If you spend your time focusing on the actions of others, such as your WAS, you have not accomplished this step. If you find yourself reactionary when dealing with your WAS, you have not accomplished this step. Obsession about why our WAS is doing evil things, is negativity, and it breeds resentment and contempt.
Think about it.
JJ
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When I first began this process in earnest my 180s were much like that of most of us. My one big thing was not following my wife around like a puppy dog. I gave her space and kept myself busy doing things I enjoy. I stopped talking about R in any way. No matter how much I wanted to say something, I didn't. I made sure to end all conversations, but in a nice way. If I was at work while we talked on phone, I simply said "I gotta go - customer.
I made sure to walk in the door smiling, I wore cologne every day, bought clothes I normally wouldnt, watched my manners (please and thank you), spoke slowly and softly.
Then, at one point, as noted in this thread I realized it was time to change things a bit. I kept up the aforementioned things, but added a different aspect. I started to "romance" her a little. Nothing upfront or pushy. Basically I acted as if she was a woman I knew and had interest in. I took nothing for granted and expected nothing in return. Much like you would in a new relationship. I watched her reactions and adjusted my actions accordingly.
That has brought us to where we are now. I think of her as my girlfriend now. I treat her as such. Always making sure to gauge and react and make sure she is comfortable. I make no demands (except once when I clearly made a sexual comment - which was a 180 at THAT moment). So...I think that is the "sweet spot". Somewhere between being unselfish and non pushy while being caring, supportive, attractive and yes, "sexy". The trick is to not seem too aloof but also not seem needy.
It really is a lot like the early stages of a brand new relationship. I still doubt this will all work out, but I am a far better person than 5 motnhs ago, and my relationship with my wife and kids is dramatically better.
Patience, and genuine thoughtfulness are my friends.
JJ
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As in: I am so grateful to have found this thread! I have read every post here and recommend all other newbies do the same! Make it mandatory reading for yourself! What a blessing!
Ask: "What am I grateful for today?" and "How does that make me feel?" Being sure to really tune in and associate to the powerful, loving feelings those questions may evoke!
I can relate so much to your feelings about your marriage. I started posting here I think last May. My original post, like yours was mainly about my stale marriage and I asked for help in "rekindling" the fire. I bought Michele's book "Divorce Busting" right off the internet. It saved not only my marriage, but ME!
I too asked my H if he was happy, but my H said no. He told me he loved me, but he didn't think he wanted to be married or a dad anymore. He felt terrible about these feelings but he needed to express them. Well after many long months and me working my butt off, we have "rekindled" the fire. Some very simple steps on my part I feel saved us.
1) I have made a deliberate decision to greet him at the door every day when he gets home from work. This was my first step and boy did it spark a light in his eye the first day I did it. I used to let the kids run to him yelling "Daddy's home, Daddy's home". I'd carrying on with what ever I was doing (cooking, cleaning, talking on the phone) and merely say "Hi honey". Sometimes a kiss, most times not! Greeting him at the door with a kiss, a hug and a smile, brought on the affection I needed from him as well. Key: Make the first move, show him you are happy to see him. Show him that coming home to you will bring sweet rewards.
2)I focused on only positive aspects of my day to talk about, knowing that he has very stressful days at work. I used to try to make my days seem more stressful than his, in hopes of relieving his stress and showing him that he is not the only one having bad days. I realized from my readings (Divorce Busting) that this was actually adding to his stress and making him more irritable and stressed and maybe even contributed to his coming home later, and later and later. (Sometimes not till 9:00 at night. Now he is home by 6:00 and that would be a late night for him. Many nights he is home by 5:00)Key: Create a comforting, positive environment for him at home. He needs to see you and his home as a safe place. Safe from stress and negativity. He gets that the minute he leaves starting with traffic, then customers, bills, employees, and all their issues. Be his safe haven and create a calm, comfortable positive home for him to come home to. Make him not want to leave. It will work.
3)Do or read or go somewhere new each day. It will help you to keep growing and blossoming and will get rid of the "staleness" in your own self. I have two young children and I am a stay at home mom. I am not a shopper so my days are not real exciting. I am content, but there wasn't much conversation to offer to my h when he would get home. So first I began to read. I got Divorce Busting first. At first it was awkward to talk about "relationship" stuff with him, but I found he was really open to the conversation and we started to rekindle our relationship and began to reconnect on areas of our relationship that we had taken for granted. Which brought me to number 4.
4) Spend more time away. We had stopped getting away alone. I had been getting a babysitter every weekend, but it seemed we were both bored going out on the same old dates. (Dinner, movie, home) So, one weekend a while back, I planned a trip to a hotel, got us both booked for massages (our firsts) and surprised him. He was so delighted. Since then we have gotten away alot. We went camping, went to Canada four-wheeling. We have been like two new people who just started dating. Remember when you used to go away together on little weekenders when you first met. Remember how great it felt to "get away". Well it still does. Make the time, surprise him, and get away. Key: Show him you want him now just as much as when you first met. Have fun, be playful.
5)The sex thing. In my situation, I, like many women, let him do all the iniating and foreplay. Well without going into graphic detail, when I changed this part of my marriage and became more creative and playful and iniated sex more, my H, needless to say was like a bee with his own honey pot. You want to see a sparkle in a man's eye, put on a sexy nighty and tell him you want him. And you start the back rub, and don't let him touch you until you have touched every inch of him with your hands and maybe even your tongue. Key: Put him into his most secretive fantasy, make him think only about you and the night before the next day while he is at work. It is possible, make it happen.
6)Send flowers, cards, emails, lunches with notes on the napkin. Anything little that will remind him you love him on a daily basis.
Sorry this got kind of long, but these are just a few suggestions. Once you start going, you'll surely have some of your own creative ways to put a sparkle back in his eye. And wait till you see how your changed behavior will affect him, it will make you want to come up with more and more ways to spoil him and you will have a great time doing all these new things. Have fun and I am glad your son is doing well too! You sound like a dedicated wife and mom. Make sure you take care of you too!
Glad to meet you.
Faith
JJ
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I thought I'd start a new thread devoted to the subject of writing letters to our WASes. I've been on this BB for over a year and I've seen countless Newcomers who are newbies desperately trying to get through to the wayward spouse that the M can be salvaged.
When I was new to the BB, I was in so much pain, turmoil, felt utter despair and was desperately trying to get my WAS to realize that our M can be salvaged through honest introspection and communication. It was through the wonderful support of other DB veterans such as Ellie, Sage, Eyesopened, StubbornDyke, and JJ that I realized that writing a letter to my spouse will only serve as a painful reminder of our fractured M. Actually, writing a letter to the WAS is classified as a R talk. I've discovered through time that initating any form of R talk early in the stages of separation will only backfire as it puts unneccessary pressure on the WAS.
Many WASes are extraordinarily pained people with raw and tender emotions from all the arguing, fighting, bomb dropping and feeling totally helpless in working on the M. Any letter writing to the WAS can be very guilt-inducing and it only serves to push them further away. When DBing, one must constantly stop and think: Will this action bring me closer to the goal? Personally, asking this question each time I consider undertaking any action and/or communication with my spouse has saved me countless times from making what could be considered destructive mistakes that could damage the marriage's chances of healing.
Many of us are anxious to convey our intermost thoughts on love, commitment, desire to really work on the marriage and get through to our WAS that we are willing to move heaven and earth to restore the marriage and/or family unit. The problem with this approach is that it only serves to reinforce the WAS' mind of why we didn't do that stuff earlier when they voiced their concerns and/or unhappiness with the M. They walk away with a huge bundle of resentment and wounded emotions.
The advice I've received from DB vets and I am going to pass it on to the newbies here is this: You can write a letter to your spouse and PUT IT away. As time goes on, you can go back and re-write it as many times as you can. It could be the expression and pouring of your anguish, hopes & dreams and desires. Or it could be a forgiveness letter to the WAS who betrayed and wounded you in unimaginable ways. Forgiveness is not a one-step process, but an on-going process as you reach for new, higher levels of understanding and awareness as you go further along on your path. It can be a very cathartic process that benefits only YOU.
The bottom line here is this: DO NOT send the letter to your WAS. Instead, utilize and implement the techniques outlined in the DR book. They are solution and action oriented in turning around the M. Actions speak louder than words. I have, personally, come to the conclusion that writing letters to our spouses is a form of control in a way that we have this set of expectations that they will come running back into arms if they could only understand the depth of our pain and anguish. We can only do one thing that can actually save the M which is a display of quiet courage in letting the WAS go and allow them to work through their pain and confusion. Our job is to support them on the journey through our own loving actions and words. They need the soothing balm of love which emanates from loving thoughts that translates into loving words and actions.
JJ
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I think before you can really find 180's that work, you need to spend a bit of time studying interactions. Here are few I found that might fit for you because we too, didn't seem to have things that annoyed each other.
1) Eye contact - I was the consumate multitasker - always doing 20 things at once. Now, I make conscious effort to stop what I am doing, look at H, make and sustain eye contact and listen to what he is saying. 2) I had a habit of finishing H's sentences. I now wait for him to finish his thoughts before replying. 3) I also had tendency to offer unsolicited advice and solutions to problems. I now try not to offer advice unless asked. 4) Here is a little one that I hung on to forever - don't ask me why. I would always greet H warmly at end of day and say " how was your day? Anything interesting happen?" It NEVER worked! He always would say fine and no and that was that. It took me a long time to give it up by I finally did. Now, I greet him with a hello and leave it at that. And you know what, after he unwinds a bit, he usually tells me about his day. I then practice the other things above which keep the conversation going. 5) I had stopped noticing all the small things that happen that should result in pleases and thank yous. I now try to treat spouse like I would a best girlfriend or stranger. I say thank you when he opens doors, does anything around the house, etc. I say please way more often too.
Those are just some ideas. Others for me were limiting outside activities (flies in the face of getting a life) but reality was I had too much of a life outside of marriage. Also, purposefully spending time in prayer and scripture became my means of getting a life. I have found tons of nuggets of wisdom in scripture and try to apply it daily.
JJ
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DR (Divorce Remedy) is a bit more of a systematic approach to the principles in DB....
Some thoughts... There's a lot in your post that you can work on. First, You mention that you don't have anything else to live for, and that you have little faith in the DB ideas of improving and taking care of yourself... That can be a lot of the problem. You've put your happiness and your reason for living on her, and she doesn't want the responsibility of both your and her happiness. What works it to make yourself attractive to her again, make her fall in love with you. Remember what it was that brought you two together in the first place. It wasn't neediness and dependence.
Another thing you've said is that you are an avoider. Well, that's another biggy you'll read about here. It's really a communication thing. A '180' might be to stop avoiding, to participate, to share your feelings and thoughts, even if you think they might sound a bit negative. Don't push them, don't defend them... just state them and if she resists, or ignores them, drop it. They're out there and she'll know what you think and feel and won't have to guess.
Don't try to figure her out. Don't try to convince her that her feelings are wrong. Don't plead with her to love you again. She's confused and she's sorting a lot of stuff out. She says she doesn't love you.... Well join the club. We have all heard that and much worse. It's her confusion about what she wants, what she needs. What she doesn't need is any more negative feelings toward you.
Take care of you. Get out, do things for you. Invite her, be her friend, but if she refuses to join you, don't take issue, but go anyway. Find things to do for you, and try to do them away from the house. Create a little mystery about yourself. Don't hide things, just don't volunteer things unless she asks, and don't resent her if she doesn't ask. Take care of you, and make her curious about you, and make yourself attractive to her.
z
JJ
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180's are really just doing something differently than you have in the past. Everyone's story here is different, but I can tell you what kinds of 180's worked for me. I started out doing 180's that I thought would make my H act toward me in certain ways. That approach didn't work and I got discouraged. Then I realized that the 180's were really for me and for stopping the patterns/ruts we were in.
As for what will make her feel less neglected, it really depends on her. My C showed me that looking at our arguments was a clue to what H needed. H needed for me to "do" things for him. As unnatural as that is for me--I just don't think of washing a car as an act of love--I did. Michele calls this real giving. A book that helped me with that was The Five Love Languages by Gary Chapman. (You can also do an internet search and get the idea of the book.) Yes, gift giving could be perceived as pursuing, especially if she is not open to that.
JJ
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Dear Stay Calm, I encourage you not to think in terms of "fatal mistakes". That perspective only adds fear to your thinking, which can cause some pretty reactive responses. Instead, try to learn something about your relationship with that last interaction and use it to move in a positive, forward direction.
What do I mean by that? Ask yourself, "What could I take from this episode that will help me next time"? It appears that at this time in your R, sharing previously undisclosed secrets only verifies to your wife that she can't trust you. So, now you know not to do that again. Be gentle with yourself...you will not do everything perfectly, but keep watching what does and doesn't work and keep making adjustments!!
Also, as others have, I encourage you to pull back on the questions, as hard as that is. Your questions may feel very intense to your W which will cause her to pull away. I know you have a need for some response from her...but it does not appear this is the right time to pursue it.
Calm, it's hard to stress enough at this point how important it is to allow space in the R. I have seen many relationships where one spouse wants to do everything to "fix it" (except "backing off"), and it almost always distances and moves the relationship closer to D. However, you sound like someone who is able to make the necessary and painful changes needed. I wish you well and hope you had a productive counseling session!
I highly encourage you to read DR - especially Chapter Two: "Start with a Beginner's Mind". Take care, Laurie
JJ
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The Last Resport Technique does not equal stopping all contact. A lot of times you will get that idea from the way people are applying it, but that is not true, especially if you have not been communicating well, or at all, recently.
Here is a summary of the LRT, which is in Chapter 6 of Divorce Remedy:
1. Stop the chase. This means do not act desperate. Do not cry, beg, pursue, buy gifts or flowers, or say I Love You. If you do, you will make her feel guilty and angry, which is not pleasant, and she will not want to be around you. This does NOT mean you totally leave her alone, especially if that was one of the main problems that led to her leaving.
2. Get a life. If you are too obsessed with the breakup, you will be depressed, moping, and not a lot of fun to be around. Why should she want to be with you when you are like that? Besides, you are miserable, which is no fun for you. Go out with friends, join a class, go to the movies, start a hobby, do whatever it is that you enjoy. Stay busy. Try to think of what attracted her to you in the first place, and do that. Did you go to museums together? Were you a good cook? Make yourself attractive to her (not just physically), and make yourself as happy as possible, which is also attractive. Plus, throw in a few things that are totally out of character. Never been to an art show? Start going. Never been interested in water skiing? Time to take it up. Shake things up a little, do the unexpected.
3. Wait and Watch. This is where patience comes in. Watch to see how she responds. If you are doing the right things, it will make her curious as to what you are up to, and will make her more interested in being with you. If you are not catching her attention after a few weeks, try doing something different. Once you get her attention, talking to her is fine, but don't get grabby or overexcited, stay cool, be vague about what is going on, and DO NOT talk about your relationship. DO NOT talk about the divorce. Sooner or later she will initiate talks, but for a while, if she starts to, steer the conversation to other topics.
Think of this like reeling in a fish. If you don't set the hook just right, if you panic and try to reel it in too fast, it will get away. Move very slowly, and you will be fine.
One trick that has served me well is to act with total unconditional love. Be a friend, be non-judgemental, act out of love and consideration for her best interests. She will probably be angry and grumpy at first, but keep at it, don't get discouraged, don't believe all the negative stuff that she says, and eventually she will start responding to you.
Do not do anything to encourage the divorce or help it along. Once you get the book, start working on setting out some goals. This is very, very important. And above all, it is not too late until YOU decide it is!
I hope this helps explain WHY you need to get on with your life. You need to become attractive and pleasant to be around, so she will want to be with you.
JJ
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Bill: Real quick note while I'm at work. I remember reading your first post around the same time as I started posting. We have shared alot of this journey. My opionion, for whatever they're worth is:
1. Separation is not a bad thing. It has helped my w and I a great deal. We are moving very, very slowly toward reconciliation, but whether we'll make it all the way there or not I don't know. We could not have even started the slow movement back without the last 3+ months of separation. In retrospect, I should have detached way more, way quicker. LRT done with love and compassion would have helped my situation a lot. A day or two after a I really profoundly released my wife emotionally and spiritually, she made the first overture toward reconciliation she has made since she dropped the bomb in March. I don't know if the two are related or not, but I believe they are.
2. I know this is a really hard one, but patience, patience and more patience. I think these things have a time frame completely of their own. What has absolutely struck me is the suddenness of my wifes change. On December 5th she gave me the long version of your 5 minute talk. On January 1st it looked like she had a happy relationship with Om that she was sharing with my kids. I truely thought she was completely gone on 1/1/01 and that night, in profound pain, I released her from her vows and took off my ring. On 1/5, pretty much on a lark, I sent her a fax that said she could move back and that I still wanted to reconcile. I expected either no response or a very negative response to the fax. She responded very positively and I learned that she has been slowly moving toward me, even when things looked hopeless. I have no idea what happened. There was no hint or suggestion that she was at least still open to reconciling.
3. The fact your w is still "on the fence" even after all these months is probably a very, very positive sign and I'm sure you are a much more attractive man than you were when you wrote the first post.
In retrospect, I wish I had acted "as if" the marriage were over early on while remaining simply open to the idea of reconcilation, gone much darker during the early separation and done all of this with very loving detachment.
MF
JJ
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I posted this on my: "Long Journey Home Thread" but it occured to me that it might be useful, all on it's own.
I am planning to start a thread soon in the forum: "Piecing Our Marriage Back Together" See ya there!
Here are a few things I did to DB my H while all the craziness was going on:
·I found more ways to focus on my children and myself.
·I forced myself to stop thinking about what my H was doing and how unfair it was.
·I realized there is really nothing I could do about my H’s behavior anyway.
·I learned to state boundaries in a friendly none threatening tone. And I stated those boundaries quickly and succinctly.
·I tried to process all my emotions in a healthy way that allowed me to stay calm just about 24/7. (If I became angry I broke plates against a wall to get out the anger.)
·I worked on my self-esteem.
·I started going out once a week and having H watch the kids.
·I tried to stay in touch with my emotions as best as I could and release them as close to the incident as possible even if I thought I felt fine.
·I "acted as if", I was going on with my life, I gave my H some breathing room.
·I tried different 180’s.
· I became more unpredictable. One fourth of July H said he was going out. (Not spending it as a family) So I had a barbeque and invited lots of people over and celebrated without him.
·I became mysterious.
· I stopped initiating any conversation.
· I went to my room as soon as he came home.
· I laughed a lot and enjoyed my kids in my room with the door shut.
· I never made plans that included him.
· I stopped interfering and/or helping along his relationships with the kids.
· I stopped keeping him informed on the kids.
·I avoided OR talks.
· I stopped confronting him.
· I left the room first and ended conversations first.
·I was always friendly but distracted.
·I stopped defending myself.
·I listened to him ad- nauseum.
· I sat in therapy sessions and let him express his anger at me until I couldn’t do it anymore.
·I took antidepressants
·Went to counseling by myself.
·Made a list of all of my good points and talents(To remind myself of my worth)
·I took stock of what about myself could be improved and did so.
·I prayed
·I became more focused on what I had to be grateful for.
·I gave the whole situation over to God.
The above are a "few" of the things that I did.
I hope this helps someone!
JJ
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I got angry at myself too. I think you're passing through some very normal stages. I thought the begging, pleading, pursuing actions were the right things to do as well. If it wasn't for people like Michele, I think everyone would still be trying the things that come naturally that don't work! Thank heavens for DB'ing solutions.
It takes time to get past the anger and the guilt and the hurt--but once you're on the other side, and I'm largely there right now, it feels wonderful. It feels so incredible to have control back--but not the illusion of control I had before--the illusion that I could control many aspects of my life and my relationship.
I now realize that I can control how I choose to respond to situations and I can at least control in some measure my own happiness and that is why I am so happy right now and so settled.
My W has commented on how much calmer I am and how much happier I am.
I think you're on the right path, praying and trying to find inner peace--it will come. It takes time and patience--lots of patience and lots of time--however your situation is resolved.
Invest a major amount of time working on yourself and your happiness right now and you'll have the strength and calmness to accept whatever happens.
Don't be too hard on yourself for too long. Many others, most definitely including myself, have walked the torturous path you're on right now and let me promise you that there is a better path once you find your sense of self again.
Hang in there and keep DB'ing as you lovingly detach,
Cliff
JJ
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When doing the LR, and your spouse sparks some interest, the rule of thumb is NOT to be overly responsive. Michele Weiner Davis says: --Be loving in return, but NOT overly excited or enthusiastic. --Accept some invitations to spend time together, but not all. --Do not ask questions about your future together. --Be vague when asked questions about the changes in you. --Continue to be upbeat. --Do not say, "I love you." --Resist getting into conversations about your marriage. --Beat your spouse to the punch when it comes time to leave an activity.
You need to continue to stay cool until you're absolutely certain that your spouse wants you back. You may get overly excited with your spouse's sudden interest in you. However, don't show it. Continue the LR, and stop pursuing behaviors. If you don't, it will backfire.
Good luck. /Tia
JJ
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Since your contact is limited, maybe start with some physical changes that will catch her eye right away. New haircut, dressing one step sharper than normal, getting in super physical shape, etc...
One thing you don't want to do is verbally broadcast your changes or ability to change. "Hey W, look at me, I'm changing". Actions speak much louder than words, and the consistency of those actions is what will really have her believing you have/are changed/changing.
Don't worry if she doesn't say anything about noticing your changes. You need to change your strategy though if you get negative feedback from her 'cause what you're doing is most likely having a negative effect.
If it's good for you in a positive way, and helps you become a better person, then keep doing those things. How you're feeling about yourself can sometimes be as or more effective than how she presently feels about you. Feelings change, and rather quickly at times.
G
JJ
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Keep in mind that 'labels' tend to generalize and group problems together -they (labels) make it very 'easy' to discuss and focus on problems rather than solutions AND the 'labels' also tend to generalize and group THE specific solutions for the 'label'... One size fits all solutions are not realistic as all people and situations are different -some stuff may work BUT some may backfire AND some may not even be tried because it does not 'fit' the 'label'...
It is good that you may be realizing THIS now -'LABELS' are a solution limiting trap that many fall into...
Here is a recent quote from Michele I found on Bellis' thread -it talks to one aspect of DBing regarding not being afraid to experiment (test the waters)and find what works ...
Quoting Michele:
It's also important for you to remember that the proof is in the pudding. By this I mean that no approach is good or bad in and of itself, it's only good if it leads to good results. And oftentimes, you won't know or be able to predict the results until you try something. don't be afraid to test the waters. If something you're doing doesn't work, just quit promptly and shift gears. that's not failure, it's simply DBing.
JJ
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Tim, I share your feeings about the "I love you but I'm not in love with you anymore," or something like that syndrome. It's exasperating.
But I don't think it's as confusing as you do. Love is a decision. It's not just a feeling. In order to maintain love over time, you have to decide each morning to do the things that will bring you close to your spouse and stop doing things that push you further away. You need to spend time together. YOu need to listen to each other, talk, make love, show interest in your spouse's life. Love is a decision to do all these things even when you aren't feeling crazy about your spouse. Love is a commitment.
So when one person says, "I don't love you anymore," what s/he is saying is "I don't feel like putting energy into this marriage." "I'm going to focus on all the bad times we've had and that will make me feel distant from you." "If I feel distant and separate from you, I can focus on me and make myself happy." It really is a decision to cut oneself off from positive feelings about the marriage.
If you've had good times together in your marriage, those memories don't just disappear. They live within us. However, sometimes when people burn out in a marriage, they bury those good feelings and memories so deep, it almost seems as if they're not there anymore. People convince themselves that the loving feelings have evaporated. They sometimes even tell themselves that they never loved you in the first place. This allows them to pull away. IT's a rationalization. But it's a rationalization that really hurts when you are the receiver of it.
So I understand your feelings. But you need to remember that whatever you feel in your heart about your marriage is real. Your wife's current perspective is colored by her need to pull away right now. Don't over-react and whatever you do, stop trying to point out to her that she isn't thinking clearly or seeing things accurately. That will only make her more certain she doesn't love you. And I know you don't want that.
Keep DBing and hang in there. Michele
JJ
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You know, sometimes you just gotta talk! If you think this is the right time, do it. But if it seems to go off track, stop.
I did a 180 on showing affection - like you, I did not show H enough affection, it was like a cold war going on - he believes that physical attention demonstrates affection, so I learned to touch more (stroking shoulder when talking, putting my hand on his arm, massaging his feet when he would let me). Made a HUGE difference.
You say you basically tolerate each other. Another 180 would be for you to break out of that stagnant way of dealing with each other. Don't just tolerate her, act as if you are happy to be with her, blast her with friendship and unconditional love, do not expect anything in return, but I betcha if you make the first moves to thaw things out, she will follow.
JJ
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Hey JJ - long time no post ! How are things? I just wanted to say hi to you & SG because it's been so long. Still miss you guys sometimes.
I really like this particular thread. What I keep going back to is - what was it that got you into that person in the first place? And how did you behave when you didn't think you could live without them?
Try that. I don't care if you think it's killing you or if they don't seem to appreciate it. Try it.
I think many of us get to know our SOs to the point that we don't remember that spark (or we don't want to admit it). Pretend you DON'T know how they really are.
The other thing (again) is...we forget how we were when we "bagged" our SOs. Like me. I forgot I was a cheeky girl who didn't take much of anything and I turned into a pleaser type. Not workin. When I went back to my orignal ways....this stuff works guys. Really, it does.
The only drawback I can still see is that you may find that you don't want it to.
Whew...that's it for now. Yikes - I gotta get up in the morning ! Good to type at ya JJ - as always. You know I loves ya madly. And SG...well, you know I loves her too. Until next time....
Hi Carl- Let me give you my read on why perhaps so many walkaways need space and time. It took me a long time to really accept that my H was angry with me and, perhaps on one level, hated me for having in his view alienated him and shattering his dreams of what our marriage would be like. I believe that most walkaways really wanted a happy marriage and, at the time they leave, feel that they have essentially done everything they can to improve things and let their unmet needs be known. It is fair to say that many of us who have been left wish that our spouses' level of dissatisifaction and unhappiness had been communicated better to us. Did they do a poor job communicating or did we do a poor job listening? My guess is that most often it is a dangerous combination of the two.
It is critical to realize that the walkaway feels very wronged and entitled to do essentially whatever he or she chooses. Their seeming selfishness hits us like a brick along the side of the head and can push us into great depths of anger too. The time and space element allows you to do several things. First, it shows the walkaway respect for his or her wishes (remember they feel like the one left has shown little respect for their needs...) Second, it gives them time to cool down and reflect on what has happened with a clearer frame of mind. Third, it gives the walkaway an opportunity to potentially crave the companionship of someone who has been with them for years and at least at some point was likely their best friend. Fourth, the space and time is healthy for the one left behind to make any needed changes and to get his or her life in order. Fifth and related to number four, is the fact that the walkaway is terrified that any words or changes that are from the one left are temporary and just part of a "win you back strategy." The walkaways fear that they will walk right back into the circumstances that led them to leave or into a situation that is even worse.
Bear in mind that none of the above means that the one left is taking full responsibility for all of the marital problems, but it does mean that for the purpose of saving his or her marriage he or she is able to leave the "blame game" behind and move forward into a new and improved marriage when the walkaway is ready. None of this process is easy per se, but it is "easier" when you are able to say to yourself that you truly want your spouse to happy even if that means that being without you.
This whole process is filled with ups and downs and it typically only moves to a different level when you can try to just be friends with the walkaway again. When the walkaway senses an implicit list of expectations from their spouse the uncontrolable fear kicks in as do their doubts about meaningful possibilities. That is why you'll see so much advice re. keeping things light and fun. Granted, light and fun is no simple endeavor when you feel like your heart has just been torn out and trampled upon!
Of course every situation is different and what works for one person may need to be finetuned or abandoned by another. You know your history and relationship better than anyone, but being a good listener to what your W is saying and perhaps not saying is important. It is likely that we all share the reality that the anger and fear have to subside before meaningful longterm progress is likely.
Hoping for the best--Jamie
(continued)......
Good morning Carl and everyone else- One other thing I want to add re. the walkaway's possible frame of mind while they are still on the fence as to whether to try and return is that during their confusion and uncertainty they seemingly would welcome their spouse ending it all. I say this from reading so many stories on this board, but also from personal experience with my H. On a few occassions during my separation my H has almost jumped at the opportunity to end it all instead of listening to my complaints re. being in limbo. When I have initiated talks about the lack of progress or his slow pace (I've learned now to just really back off and process to myself) he has said that "we could always just end this." I have not been a doormat through any of my separation, but I have been clear that I want my marriage and family back together and, in a non-threatening way that my life is moving forward in healthy ways.
So, I guess what I'm saying is that your W may be consciously or subconsciously testing you to see whether you can give her what she needs right now (space, time...). She also is likely somewhat fearful that she is making a mistake by staying away, but feels that she really is unable to change the situation right now and needs to do what she is doing. She is willing to risk losing it all because she cannot have it together yet. I can say that I do believe that my H is still fearful that things will revert to the unhealthy condition they were in immediately prior to him leaving.
The best way to show your W that you are capable of forgiving your W for the affair and perhaps other things is to be her friend. Again, this is not always easy and you need to put her needs ahead of your own for it to work. A friend is there to listen and not to criticize during the other's pain and confusion. There will be moments when internally you backslide and think "wait a second, I'm the one who was left and she is being comforted by the new beau! When do I get comforted?" You need to keep those thoughts to yourself or with a support network (here, close friends, supportive family...). Avoid contact with people who will predictably say your nuts for putting up with her or should date and slam the door in her face. These people know nothing about DB and are projecting re. a topic they've never likely delved into. It's a personal journey and others' opinions are to be taken with one very large grain of salt.
The "act as if" approach not only will probably help your W feel more comfortable around you, but also has the effect of making you feel more like the way your striving to be. It is all about deciding how you will react to things and feel. Until all of this I never really believed or grasped the concept of choosing how we feel and respond to events. It always just seemed to be an uncontrollable reflex. Mellowing out and relaxing is a learned process and we can all change when we are ready.
I hope this makes sense Carl. My mind is moving a little faster than the fingers on the keys, but there are certain topics that just really strike a chord with me.
Have a great weekend--Jamie
JJ
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I had a similar situation in my relationship. Through the methods described in Divorce Busting it was possible for me to change myself to the type of person that my wife now adores ( and of course, my feelings for her are mutual). Basically, my wife always loved and admired the good things about me but chose to not live with me due my clouded alternate side, which, over time, showed itself more and more. I was grumpy, short sighted, given to temperamental outbursts, self-absorbed (actually, I was blatantly selfish) and totally given to making money. I don’t blame my wife for leaving me. When I look back at the way I was, I would have left me too!
My wife and I have been back together now since August, 1999 after being separated for eight months. During the eight months that we were apart, I made numerous, positive, consistent and, ultimately, permanent changes. These were changes that I wanted to make. I began to feel better because I was a happier and better person. It took my wife leaving me to get me to realize what and who I had become and that, no matter what, I needed to change.
I learned to change my tactics of contact with my wife. The toughest part of being apart from my wife was keeping my cool around her when I had the chance talk to her or be with her. I was probably in a similar emotional state as you are now.
I believe the most important and useful method of getting your wife back (as your wife)is to pull yourself away from the relationship as a husband and become a complete and total friend. This is incredibly hard to accomplish but, if attained, will set you apart from nearly every other man I know(at least among those who don’t access this site). Most men do what comes naturally, initially……..we let our self-absorbed emotions become the driving force in trying to get another chance. If you can show your wife absolute friendship and support and put your selfish emotions in the closet when you are in contact with her, your chances of another relationship with your wife will be greatly enhanced. Becoming a friend when you really want to be a husband can be an arduous task. Right now, your wife won’t trust you as a husband, but she will trust you as a friend, if you truly are a friend. It is very tough to be unfriendly to someone who is friendly. Think about friendship. Not just casual friendship, but sincere, true, unconditional friendship. What a great place to begin a new and better relationship.
My wife told me that my pledge to unconditional friendship was what brought back the first feelings of love. My wife was looking for parts of the man, to whom she was originally drawn, to be manifested. I tried to allow her see the good part of me that I knew was buried deep within myself. I tried to present myself in the finest light possible while continuing to work on becoming that person for real. Sometimes I would ask myself if it was worth the effort. Changing oneself, permanently, is a long, hard process. I knew, in my heart, that my wife was the person with whom I wished to be for the rest of my life…..and this made the effort so worthwhile.
Now, after being back together for nine months, my wife and I have the most incredible friendship, partnership and marriage. We both look back on the separation as a time of learning and growth rather than a dark period.
The possibilities of getting back together with your wife are very good. I believe that much of the burden of the getting-back-together-process will, however, be on your shoulders. You will have to pull strength from within yourself when you feel you have none. You may feel like venting. When you feel like letting go make sure you do it at home or somewhere away from your wife. The times you spend at home crying in the shower alone may seem terrible. It is much worse to vent in front of your wife. Believe in yourself and in your mission. Make your changes consistent and permanent. Start immediately! Don’t give your wife another chance to validate the reason that she left. Give her reasons to come back.
As long as there is a small burning ember of care for you in the heart of your wife, I believe you can start the fire again. Take it slowly, be patient and give yourself plenty of time. Time is always on your side whether is seems to be or not.
Don’t give in and don’t give up.
David
JJ
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Well, (leaning back and cracking my knuckles), I consider myself an expert on the topic of snooping.
It's not a good thing. It colors your judgement. It doesn't allow you to be the best you can be. In my case, where there is actually a torrid PA going on, it kept the OM in my head, where he ran my life. Snooping makes you believe you are in control, but in fact, your are totally controlled by things beyond your control. Snooping is an addiction. It is a drug. And worst of all, it's a drug that only makes you feel worse. And even worse than that, if you really find any proof that your W is having an affair, and she finds out you have violated her privacy by snooping, guess who is considered to be the more untrustworthy????? YOU ARE!!!! Yeah, the logic is dumb, but the logic of an affair is ridiculous.
Stay out of her email. I know, that's hard. You probably won't follow that advice, but it's best for you if you do. Then, you will be able to "act as if" there is no affair, and "act as if" your wife is truly trying to get back together. If you snoop, and you learn that she's having an affair, it will likely color you judgement, and not allow you to "act as if". You will be simmering under the surface, and the OM will be running your life.
As for showing her the emails, think about it, what good would that do???? Probably none, since you would only show her you don't trust her, and show her you don't respect her privacy. This is beyond backsliding. I know. I'm there. If it caused you to, as you say, plan your own walk-away, is that what you really want?????
Stop obsessing about W and her maybe EA/PA. Be good to you, make yourself the man your W wants to be with. Make you the man your W wants. Make you the best you can be, and if W goes away, you will still be the best you can be. Leave her alone. Respect her. Love her. Love you. Be the best you can be.
Good luck. Read this board. You'll learn you are not alone, and you'll learn ideas that will help you. But, the most important thing is that if you are not the best you can be, you can't help anyone.
Good luck z
JJ
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HEre is what I posted a day ago on another thread (reply to a woman): *********** No fire for fire. Fire is a clean and noble essence. Use it for a good purpose.
No snooping. Everyone can excel in it -- but just imagine how every step in this direction is ruining the trust (whatever is left). Imagine what wil you feel if you really succeed and learn something? There won't be anything really new -- but for sure there will be may little things that can take you to a deeper level in hell (or whatever hierarchy they have there). Until you learn it, you have a tremendous advantage which you will lose instantly: whatever lucid picture comes to your mind about them, you can always tell yourself that this is your imagination, that in reality it's different, that this is your mind playing tricks on you. But if you're seeking proof -- you'll get something. Not necessariy what you expected, but the least wanted nevertheless.
The most terrible thing that can happen -- you can find "something" and interpret it your way, in light of all other events - while in reality it can be something diferent. And it will grow as a snowball. remember Otello?
And if you find something, you'll have a choice of either going insane over it yourself or discussing it with your H. The first is unbearable, the latter can be the end of everything. Unless you're looking for a weapon to use in the war you declared, don't do it.
I stand by every letter of the following:
no matter what terrible things they are doing, no matter how insensitive they seem, they have their share of guilt, and it's not too little. If you give nothing but love, it can grow so big that it will become unbearable. If you begin demanding and accusing, they are relieved and feel more even. Your H's life is not easy. His relationship with the OW is not heaven, while he knows that you're suffering but still above it, but still want to understand and forgive him, still love him. The minute you begin acting as an enemy (snooping, playing games, accusing him) you change it for him: the situation is no longer under his control, he is threatened with an enemy, the war is declared, he has to protect himself, the Ow is an ally.
Don't ask me how to bear this uncertainty, this every day pain of thinking about them, the lies, the complete unpredictability of the future, the fear of making a wrong move... I wish I knew it myself... Perhaps, antidepressant drugs can do you good (I am inclined to begin this again myself)... The cooler and stronger you are, the better are the odds. How else can you be atractive and respected, unless you retain your dignity and love as the highest values?
And kindness... It matters...
JJ
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Sol, Do me a favor. Go back and re-read the posts in your two threads. It seems that there is a theme to them. The message is pretty much the same from a number of people. I see the message as:
Stop wondering what is wrong with W and how messed up she is to do this to you and your child. It is a given.
I consider this wallowing in self pity and the harboring of resentment. It is a first class ticket to divorce. You need to release these feelings and free yourself to be happy. Let W and her antics go for now. Focus on your personal life with your child. Act "as if" you would like W back in your life some day after she gets her sh## togather.
Try to find the strength to forgive W for her activities and yourself for helping to push her away. Don't kid yourself, forgiveness takes strength. Keep in mind that W's confusion comes from hurt and pain that was caused by her past and inadequacies in your relationship. Yes, her expectations may have been unfair to you. However, expectations not addressed turn into resentment and hurt.
You are not wrong for your feelings and W is not wrong for hers. You need to find a way to meet W in the middle. Don't worry about W's lack of effort to come to the middle. Focus on your efforts. Maybe even a wee bit of extra effort (not toooo much though). When you get to the middle you can wait for her.
If you do this in baby steps, you can handle it. If you can kill the resentment, you will find the strength to keep moving towards W rather than away.
Resentment kills respect which once lost, kills love dead.
Kent
JJ
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Hey bud-- glad to see that you have calmed down and taken a deep breath. You asked me over, so I'm gonna give you my frank opinion, okay?
Stop thinking about it all so hard.
Yeah, I know, it's easier said than done for all of us, but you seem especially inclined to analysizing what your wife means and does and etc, etc. when the simple fact is, she doesn't even understand why she does what she does anymore.
I mean, she chose to act a certain way to minimize the pain she was feeling-- and she says it took 10 years for her to get to that point... I'll echo the others in saying that maybe your expectations that her perception of you would change, even in one year, might be a little high...
I'll also echo the others in saying that ya gotta look at the positive. She's not saying that she's going to leave... she just doesn't want to spend every waking moment trying to figure out how to make things better...
It might suck for you to hear this dear heart, but the truth is, she don't feel like she HAS to work at the relationship-- from her standpoint, she did her work the past ten years, so all things considered, it's YOUR turn. You hypothesize about her feeling guilt, but if she's like the average could be walk away-- if she's anything like ME, she's not feeling guilty cause she feels like she's given it her all when you weren't worried about the relationship. So now, it's not her problem.
I know-- it sucks to have the brunt of the work on you-- and it's gotta be worse for a man because ya'll don't normally have the brunt of the R work... but that's just the way it is right now.
My suggestion to you is to spend the next three months thinking about what attracted her to you in the very beginning of ya'lls relationship... the stuff she told you she liked, the stuff she seemed to enjoy, stuff she suggested ya'll do that maybe you did at first but slowly stopped doing...
Then slowly start introducing that stuff back into ya'lls life when you return. She has a close MF-- look at what she and he share together by way of interests... what do they talk about? If you want a return to intimacy and a return to the friendship you once had, you'll have to see what that friendship stemmed from... and then slowly reintroduce those things-- but not in a forceful way-- just casual, with no pressure the same way her friends would do it.
JJ
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I would not let others stress you out about your W. You know her best.. and you know what actions you can live with...Its amasing sometimes how other people will tell you what to say and how to handle things in your life. example ..the money thing.
My friends were giving me so called good advise daily, i would just listen and smile..without any real comment. If i would of listened to them i dont think i would of ever gotten my H back...so many were telling me to get on with my life and forget the past. So glad i was able to think for myself..i know they meant well, but they couldnt reliese i wanted him back and was going to work for it and at it.
Back to your question about your W...I just told lulu, on her thread too that when my H was gone, before he came back he was calling and coming over for reasons he never was before....sometimes they were just to tell me what was on TV..later, when he came back he told me it was because he missed me and missed talking to me so he would even make up reasons... Rememeber, what they say, actions mean more than words...and if she is finding little ways to keep in touch, thats a great step. You also have to be careful tho and not read into everything either or rush her into any talk about OR or D..right now that is taboo.....You want to remain being her friend and remain letting her set the pace, so not to pressure her. and dont be surprised if for a few days she seems really close and then out of the blue she is distant....this happens to all. Its our spouses trying figure out what there doing, there confused at this point. They made this decision and now thier heart is telling them something different..
Keep DBing and keep being the best you, you can be. and remember PATIENCE....it all comes in baby steps.. YOur doing great
Nancy
JJ
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Firstly try not to listen to friends and family. Whilst well meaning they AREN'T in your position and DON'T know how you feel. You will get totally conflicting advice, and end up more confused and panicked than you already are. You know what you want, don't be put off. Do what you need to do to have the best chance of getting your wife back, thats to stick to the DBing.
Get your advice from us here, we KNOW what you are going through and will give far better advice than family and friends.
Your wife is in total "selfish" mode at the moment. Nothing and no-one matters to her but her, this is normal. She will only want to hear from people who agree with her, its her way of justifying to herself what she is doing. By talking to people that think she's doing the wrong thing it will force her to face up to her actions, she isn't ready for that. It WILL come, but more than likely only once she has real space and time to sit and think about the situation she is in.
You HAVE GOT a REAL chance RIGHT NOW to prove you can change. Don't try telling her, she will not want to hear. Actions speak louder than words, so start working on yourself and let her see the new, real you. Make sure you have a real PMA, act happy around her, let her see that you are getting on with life. Start doing some things FOR YOU, things that you have thought about doing but never got around to. You will become far more attractive to her if she sees you getting on with and enjoying your life.
Now is the time for you to work on YOU. Let her be for a while, let her wonder what you are up to. Go and have some REAL fun, might just make her think differently about you.
Relax.
TONY
JJ
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Dave, I have not followed you story as I am rarely on these boards these days since rebuilding a life with my wife takes most of my time. One thing you said really jumped out at me.
"Her new attitude can be best described as deeply angry. she is tired of being taken for granted and disrespected. from now on you'd better believe, she is not going to be pushed by anyone."
Was your wife taken for granted and disrespected, and if she was it bet she is angry. Her actions and reactions are very normal. If she felt that way in the past she probably got to a point she felt she didnt even know who she was or why she even tried. Now she is in a position where she feels she has to rediscover who and what she is. Many times WAW's totally detach to do this. Whether it be conscious or subconscious they feel the need to focus on them selves with little regard to the world around them to get back on track and feel good about them and the world once again.
From someone who has been through it all and is finally coming to the end of the tunnel this is what you need to do. Never talk about your relationship. Keep talk about your D to only necessary things since she sees you as "always talking about your D". Talking about kids can be a double edged sword. Yes, it may evoke some sense of family in them but usually if the time is too soon they feel you are smoothering them with family talk, and kid talk usually ends up turning into emotional talk they dont want to deal with. How does she act when you just talk to her, ie light chit chat? As for the date question it was not a bad thing, but she gave her answer so let it go for now and give her some time to let it sink in. Now just have some pleasant light contact with her when possible and dont pressure her, judge her, or blame her for anything. See what happens just keeping things light and friendly.
JJ
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No one person can hand you a win (if win is defined as reconcilliation). A win depends on three things. You and your attitude, your W and her attitude and the grace of god. I realize that unlike many friends on this board, I was very lucky. I actually saw what was happening before the bombs started falling. My W did'nt want to talk about anything as she was lost in her own personal crisis. I found Micheles DB book about a week before the S talk bomb fell(again luck).
I had been struggling with my R with W for a year and the DB book was the first time I had some tools to use (you know guys and tools). Our first C told me it was hopeless and to prepare for W to leave me. I was losing everything I cared about and I was desparate. I chose to follow her advice to the best of my ability. Did I backslide? You bet. Did people on this board help pull me out of despair? you bet. Are things improving? Yep. Could my situation turn about and take a dive? possibly.
I'm rambling as I'm a little confused on the jealosy comment. I guess I always looked at my battle as a personal one. I asked advice and processed the info and made my own decision wether to apply it or not. I listened to alot of good advice from this board. Most of it consistant with Micheles principles.
In the end it was my W who made the final choice to work on reconcilliation. Her choice, which I had no control of, is what has brought us back into a positive relationship.
My head is pretty much cleared out at this point. I can see my struggle in others on this board. My advice to all is stick to Micheles principles. Use the board when you are confused as to whether you are applying it properly. Don't rely on any one person (except yourself) as having the answers. After all, it's your M and your life.
Kent
JJ
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I never had to resort to LRT's per say. Instead, I performed a number of 180's that worked like magic.
1. I stopped pursuing W with whining, crying, begging and pleading.
2. I stopped snooping into her personal business. I stopped calling suspected OM's, friends, parents. I stopped hiring tele number traces.
3. Here is the biggy. A big part of my problem was associated with general resentment and disatisfaction with my job. With the help of some personal counseling, a job change and a genuine decision to change my attitude, I pulled it off. This is why I have been saying I am happy and feel pretty damn good. It's because I really do. The tough part was pulling this off while W was talking about separation. This was the big change that made the real difference. It affects everything and all your relationships.
4. We found a better counselor. After the first C told me to throw in the towel, I became very depressed. However, I did not give up. I went to my Dr., got some medication and continued to push myself into a growth mode. I interviewed my new C and explained what we had been thru and what my expectation was in regards to the kind of help she would provide. The new C has stuck to the deal.
As I said before, alot of my success had to do with luck and timing. The other ingredients were Michele's guidance and shear determination on my part. For me it fell into place and worked quickly.
There are others on this board that have been thru much more than I. There are many on this board who have not experienced the luck and good timing that I had. There are others on this board who's WAS's have alot more personal problems than my W has.
I am not one to question about LRT's. I think there is probably alot more 180ing to do before you resort to this step. This is individual choice. Take ILM for example. She has been divorced for at least 3 years and has still not moved to LRT mode. I say if you are to the point where you can't take it anymore, 1st back-off take a long break and come back at it rested rather than exhausted. Save the LRT's for when you are really at that point where you can't go on.
One last thought. The big change caused alot to happen for me. The change in my attitude has opened my eyes to many things I never saw before. In a previous thread, I mentioned that I am being hit with new realizations several times a week. I am just beginning to understand what real change has done and how it feels. What am I trying to say? When you have accomplished real change, you know it.
As, I said, my situation seemed to hinge on recognizing that my attitude was bad, why it was bad and really change it. There were some other pieces that may warrant more explaination.
My W was having trouble dealing with our two lil ones, boys 5 and 3 (now). I kept the lousy job because I felt i needed to be home as much as possible. I came home from work every night to take the kids off her hands. Weekends were the same story. I cooked, cleaned, dry walled, framed, mowed and just about everything else.This on top of being the bread winner. Over time I built resentment for W without really realizing it. It would come out in little snips as well as in my eventual withdrawl which was a result of her withdrawl from the family. This is what I meant when I had to give up the resentment. Saying it was not good enough. I had to prove it with my actions.
I think the 180's Michele speaks of in reference to off the wall are not just crazy stunts. They are changes that W will have a hard time beleiving that are part of you. For me giving up the bad things I spoke of was an off the wall 180. What things would your W have trouble beleiving were true if you told her. These are suppose to be good changes, not just crazy crap. They also need to be real.
Another off the wall 180 would be a discussion I had with Cliff a while back. He was seeing twinges from W that seemed to indicate she was communicating with the mother ship again. Cliff had to pull a 180 as a maintenence issue. He had to stop being so reliable and do something unexpected to get her attention. Something that showed he was concerned about recent events and that he was his own guy. His move was to not come home sometimes. He would act mysterious, go out kinda breaking the Mr. reliable bubble. I tried a similar move and found W to take notice. It is very similar to the pursuer distancer syndrome. Unfortunately, W needs to be around for these moves to have an affect.
When W is not home or even when she is still home and just not interested, the 180's need to be big and real and obvious. She will also need to see that you are going to be happy and strong and get on with your life with or without her. You make yourself into the strong happy guy you were when you originally met.
JJ
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My situation began to turn around when one night when I had been reading to my two little ones I felt this overwhelming rush of knowing that no matter what happened everything would be alright. I continued to love my H thereafter, but was able to say, "he has to go through what he has to go through on his timeline." I became more confident again and I think that ultimately was more appealing to my H as he realized I still wanted him back, but did not need him back--life would go on. It seems pretty universal that walkaways hate or, at least, are not equipped to deal with, neediness and will crawl deeper into their caves when they sense it in their spouse. Perhaps it's mostly subconscious, but they really very often seem to have so much on their own plates to contend with that anyone else's needs puts them over the edge. None of this justifies their conduct, but it does possibly help to understand it when you detach from the patterns.
As always, best of luck--Jamie
JJ
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Usually, the first few months of separation are very tough. Both parties are suffering the results of the separation. Sometimes, I think our partners have (in a different way) as difficult a time facing the separation as we do. They are caught in a position that is as strange and new as the position in which we find ourselves. In confusion, despair, hurt or whatever……….they simply lie because they have no answers or don’t know what to say to us. They make up what they think we wish to hear to buy more time, salve their conscience, etc. It’s not the right thing to do, but I’m not sure that they have not, just now, become "liars" by nature. If they weren’t liars prior to the separation, they probably aren’t really liars now. They’re dealing with their current problem by lying.
Time and patience are, I believe, the two very important ingredients in attempting to save your marriage. Time is necessary to change. I changed aspects of myself immediately after my wife left me. These were changes that anyone could see. I immediately became aware of my tendency to become angry over inconsequential matters. I ceased the outward appearance of anger immediately, but the inner tendency remained for months. Now, I can handle any situation without getting angry. The inner tendency is very nearly gone and no one knows it’s there but me. I know it will take quite a bit more time until the tendency, that only I know exists, is gone. Even then, I’ll always be watching for it, just in case it rears it’s ugly head like a monster that’s been, supposedly, killed near the end of a grade B Sci-Fi movie. You’ve given up smoking and drinking and have begun to work out regularly. These are a lot of changes to have been made in a very short time. Sometimes, I believe, it’s easy to make a lot of changes in the beginning. We have a lot of adrenaline running and a very strong desire to show that we are changing. Time will allow you to test yourself on your changes. Thank goodness for time. Keep using time to improve yourself and to make sure that your changes are there to stay.
Patience is needed in huge portions. I think of how I treated my wife for the six years that we were married, prior to our separation. If the roles had been reversed and my wife had treated me as I treated her for six years, then she presented herself to me as being changed, how long would it take for me to believe she had really changed? We, as humans, are probably the most cynical when it comes to believing that someone has really changed themselves. We all know how tough true change is to come by. Think about how hard it is to stop a habit like biting your nails or yelling at people while driving in traffic. We’re attempting to make some major changes here. Our partners are, simply, not going to believe that these changes are permanent until they witness these changes for awhile. It will take some longer than others to recognize the changes. The reality is that some will be sidetracked and may not return to us in spite of our changes. This makes it even harder to exercise patience, but we have no choice. We must give time a chance and be, almost blindly, patient.
The good news…………..when YOU can appreciate your changes, irrelevant to how you believe your wife perceives you……………you will have become self-assured in your changes. This means that you can carry on for YOU. If your wife wishes to join you, as the changed, self-confident, courageous and loving man that you’ve become, great. Extend yourself to your wife as a genuine friend and as a progressively changing man. She will, over time, come to a decision to come back, or not. YOU on the other hand, have already made your decision to be a changed individual irrelevant to her. Relish and enjoy the new person that you are becoming. Explore all the benefits of having a body that will perform better for YOU. Explore the benefits of optimistic thinking and self-confidence. Explore the ability to be emotionally supportive to your wife even if she isn’t supportive to you. Be a better friend to her than she is to you. Feel the inner power of knowing that you have something few other men, even your wife’s friend, have. You have the power to walk through this situation with confidence, dignity and self-control AND continually change for the better. Give yourself the time to change and be patient with your situation. I maintain that miracles can’t happen, when involving a relationship, unless time and patience are specific partners to that miracle.
Keep coming here for support and to glean information from us who have been or are going through similar situations. If you haven’t read Divorce Busting, I strongly recommend that you purchase the book and read it as soon as possible.
I wish you the best in your DB’ing future.
David
JJ
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Generally you have to give any new technique at least a couple weeks to see if it works. The concept of "going dark" for some doesn't work as well as going "dim" - that is, to have some limited contact and keep in touch in a friendly manner. Don't worry too much that your darkness/dim will give the impression that you want a D. If anything, you can say you are busy working on yourself and want to give your S some space. One of the goals of going dark/dim is to make the S wonder about you, and initiate contact and become the pursuer instead of you. Generally when we pursue, the other feels too much pressure to make a decision about the R and doesn't know what to do. You know you want your M and not a D, so give them time to see that the grass isn't greener on their side.
Always be friendly and upbeat when around your S or talking to them. It may seem as unfriendly to cut up credit cards, but you need to protect your own financial interests at this point. It still doesn't mean you want a D.
Try to recognize your level of dark/dim and what works. This level may need to be adjusted over time too. For example, if you email her and she emails back, that is good, and it's positive if she initiates them too. Then from there you wait to see if she initiates phone calls. Over time the level of trust and comfort builds as you have successful communication. That means talks/emails w/o conflict, bringing up A or OP, or talks about OR. Be like a good friend, someone who doesn't pressure them.
Our goal is to eventually get our S to fall back in love w/ us and recognize that we are able to change and are worth staying in the M for. While dark we try to recognize what we did wrong in the R and improve/change ourselves. Then our S notices these things.
JJ
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Here's what I used to do when I would feel such a compelling urge to contact my H and seek some type of assurance: I would almost chant to myself that it was very possible (perhaps likely) that my inquiry alone could push my H further from me and make it a real possibility that he'd zing me further as I pushed for answers or some form of encouragement. It all really requires taking a deep breath and understanding that the walkaway often cannot handle being pushed on questions re. the status of things, whether there has been progress, what the prognosis of things is.... We feel like we need answers NOW and they don't typically want to deal with things until they are ready. It's not fair or easy, but do not attempt to "take her pulse" because it may push her away. Also, as Michele points out in her book, if we openly worry about the relationship and express it to our spouse, he or she doesn't have to worry about it (at least not as much).
I like Greg's suggestion to possibly stop responding to all of her e-mails. She might need to miss you and wonder what you are doing and thinking.
Hang in there--Jamie
JJ
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Hi Strat- Sorry there have been no respones to your post before now. The answer to your question of whether there is any hope is a strong YES! From what you have described, your present way of communicating with your W in a supportive and nonconfrontational manner is working. I would not suggest that you do anything significantly different because you've noted that she is warming up to you and expressing concern about your well being. I deem that change as a sign that what you are doing is allowing her to lower her walls and defense mechanisms a bit.
The danger that you face, in light of the improvements, is overzealousness in trying to have things happen even faster. It is likely critical that you move slowly now and not do anything to show that her friendly signals to you have triggered additional expectations. You need to strike that healthy balance of an abundance of positive mental attitude and being exceptionally alert to process new signals from your W. You've indicated that she will need to feel in control and it would seem that openly offering her continued support while you focus on your own issues will likely rebuild her respect and trust.
Letting go of any anger that may linger is also a must as you try to be her long distance best friend. The 6 month period she has mentioned is probably not carved in stone, but try not to let the idea of that separation dominate your actions or thoughts. It is unfortunately too easy to drag yourself down psychologically by looking at the negatives and feeling overwhelmed by the moment's stumbling blocks. View whatever length of separation that you may have as an opportunity to make changes that will, on the one hand, possibly result in a healthier marriage, but, on the other, guarantee a healthier life for you.
I would not press your W for a visit or for answers re. what she wants from the marriage now. Let her take the lead and let her know the measures you're taking to address issues that are your own and that need improvement. You know her best and perhaps there are little things that you could do that would remind her of the man with whom she fell in love. Wait as long as you think those things would be perceived as pressure for particular responses from her.
I'm not sure if you have read "Divorce Busting" yet, but get a copy and read it ASAP if you don't have it in your collection. You seem to be on the right track and know the caution that you need to use in your interaction with your W, albeit limited to the phone now. Best of luck--
Jamie
JJ
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The first thing that you must do though is decide if, you want your H back. I wanted my H back.
I gave him all the space he needed. He left me. During this time I tried my very hard to focus on myself. I had changed over the years and really wasn't happy with the turn our marriage had taken. I had stopped meeting his needs, it was kind of like tit for tat.
When I would see him I would try to act very upbeat. No one really wants to be around someone that appears down all the time. I would smile, smile and smile. I eventually learned not to discuss OR with him or the ow. This always turned into an arguement. The last thing I wanted to do was argue. When I did see him I looked my best. These are all the same things that I used to do early in our marriage and when we dated.
In an odd sort of way, I became the ow. I would laugh at his jokes and show interest in everything that he wanted to talk about. I didn't give him my opinion on anything, I only listened.
All the while I was doing this I could see that it was working. It took a very long time. Yes, he was having his cake and eating too. BUT, he also started to realize that maybe he may lose me for good. I think that it is very important to keep the lines of communication open.
JJ
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Well, I feel there are several reasons for going dark, and some of them are FRT (First Resort Tactics).
1) Because you cannot control yourself when talking to your SO. Maybe you get in arguments, maybe you beg and plead. So, you limit the contact and find peace within yourself.
2) Because they cannot control themselves. Why listen to someone berate you or try and control you?
3) To be mysterious. Make them wonder what you're up to. Works best with grey rather than dark. (Sorry I wasn't home last night to get your call. Huh? Oh, I was just out with some friends. Oh, I was out at the movies.) I actually did the movie thing - I'd go to catch a flick, come home to find a message. Then get the grilling - where were you? Who were you with?
4) You're done with them and would rather listen to Barry Manilow do Metallica then talk to them ever again.
5) You forgot to pay the phone bill.
JJ
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It's really difficult to stop pursuing someone you love. We think if we just find the right words, we'd be able to make our WAS see reason and come back to us. It doesn't work, does it? It didn't for me, that's for sure, and it makes them just that much more determined to get away from us.
Sit down with your DR or DB book in the section that talks about goals and "more of the same" behavior. Have you actually sat down and written this out? I found it very helpful. Being aware of self defeating behavior is the first step in eliminating it.
After you have done that it may be easier for you to deal with your WAW in a more constructive way. Keep asking yourself "is what I'm about to say/do going to bring me closer to my goal, or farther from it?" If the answer is "farther", stop and look for an alternative.
Your situation has some similarities to my own. My H didn't feel like either of us had our independance anymore, and that was really important to him. When I thought about it objectively, I had to agree with him. That's what we're working on now. Each of us is being more independent, which makes us feel more like PARTNERS, instead of people who NEED each other.
Giving her the space she needs right now doesn't mean she won't come back, or that you don't care. It's probably the most loving thing you can do for her. And it gives you time to take care of yourself too!
JJ
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I arrived on this bb in August 2001. I wasn't ready to post my story, so I started reading others' posts and went digging thru some really old threads. I read read read for a month I have learned so much by reading and then putting into practice what I've read. I don't claim to be an expert, far from it, but here is what I have learned so far.
#1- I learned most from the "oldtimers" who have been doing this DB thing for many moons. I've taken the opportunity to learn from their mistakes. Yes, each sitch is different but why repeat mistakes of others when they have already shown it does not work?
#2- Most (if not all) variations to DBing do NOT work. I don't know best and its part of listening to advise. Variations are a way of keeping to the old brain thinking. Start w/the beginners mind
#3- I needed to learn to shut up and listen! What a concept- listening. Was I able to do it?
#4- I had to really look at myself from H's perspective. He'd been telling me my faults- Why couldn't I accept them? Well, probably because I wasn't listening and was to wrapped up in pointing the finger back at him. What did I do to help in the R breakdown? Now, what can I do to change my faults? (Not only for the R if it is to be, but for possible future Rs as well)
#5- Learning to forgive. After hearing H for the 1st time, I had a lot of guilt in my own actions and reactions in the R breakdown. I needed to forgive myself first. Once I forgave me, I could then freely forgive H for what I felt was his part. He never asked for forgiveness, but I gave it freely anyway through my own free will.
#6- Acceptance. I've accepted that this is where I am.
#7- How to get out of the turmoil/drama- I was causing my own turmoil. By getting so wrapped up in trying to figure out what H was doing, thinking and feeling, I was keeping myself entangled in something I had no control over. He is him and I am me. I control me and make my own choices- he does the same for himself.
#8- Aliens. Hahaha. Its a nice word for someone who is/has becoming his own person and taken away our control. We call them aliens because we don't understand why they say what they say or do what they do. H stopped running with the "program"- my program- which made him different and in turn made himself out to be an "alien". He wasn't happy w/the program so he threw the wrench (No i didn't say wench ) into the works. Listen to the aliens and accept them for who they are and show patience.
#9- Making productive and noticeable goals is very important part of DBing. To see the baby steps and changes, write out goals. I look at mine often and have seen the baby steps and changes in H. SET UP GOALS!!!
#10- Taking things personally. Ugh, such trauma when H took off his wedding ring. I look back at it now and say "Why did this bother me so much?" I still wear mine- my choice. Preaching about marriage vows same difference. The WAS more than likely already sees some vow already broken by the left behind spouse (For better or for worse? in sickness and in health? etc) You get my point, so don't preach. A WA is going to do what they are going to do regardless of what you or I think.
#11- NOT Fearing the possibilities and unforeseen future... I was so fearful of losing H that I lost him in the process of fearing. Strange concept. Fear brought on some serious controlling issues from me- tried to control everything. Fear brought out anger and rage. Fear brought out desperateness and clinging. Why fear what could happen? I could die tomorrow, but I don't wake up every morning with the fear of dying tomorrow.
#12- Letting go/Detaching..... I learned 1-10 and was able to detach lovingly. I am H's friend because I know I am his friend and expect nothing in return. I wish him much happiness in everything he is and does.
Laurie
JJ
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Today I was going to attach links to some of my old threads but I decided that my time would be better spent relflecting on what has worked for me. Besides, one of my best threads has vanished into cyberspace. It's too bad because it was the thread where I think I did some of my best DBing.
What worked:
-Don't argue about anything...period. Take a break. Don't overreact. If something is important enough, then it will still be important in several hours. Otherwise just let it go.
-Don't take ANYTHING personally. Check your pride at the door. The WAS will say things that are crazy, untrue and hurtful, but it's not about you...it's about them. They say ugly and hurtful things because they feel ugly and hurt.
-Act "as if". This was my biggest weapon! I even taught my sister how to do this when her BF dumped her and now they are back together. This works at so many different levels that I may have to devote an entire post to this alone. There is a post that keeps getting recycled that defines the "special as if attitude". I read this every night before I went to bed. We must not overreact. We must not get sucked into their pathology. We must act as if everything is fine around us. My H accused me of being delusional. He said that everything in our lives was a mess (it was only in HIS life where everything was a mess...my life was fine). Gradually, H stopped fighting the "as if" attitude and started acting kinder towards me. I think he felt guilty about how bad he was treating me while all the time I was so nice.
-Don't make a fuss over the OP. I kept reading over and over that these infatuations will run their course and eventually fizzle out. I decided to have patience and it did fizzle.
-Decide to have an A with your S. I bought about a thousand books and CDs during my crisis and on one of the CDs the author said, "If you don't have an affair with your H, then someone else will."
-Always take the high road. Don't do anything that you will regret later.
-Be positive. Nobody likes to be around a depressed person. I decided that I had control over my own environment so it was going to be a positive environment and no one had the power, H or anyone else, to destroy it. H could be in his negative space, but I would not allow it to affect my space. I decided to fill up my environment will love an positive energy. It is truly amazing how attractive this makes a person.
I will post more later as they come to me. Everything that I did was not easy. I had to be strong. Stronger than I ever thought possible. There were times when I thought that I was going to crumble under the pressure. I had to be in absolute control of my emotions. No reacting to his antics. In the end, I gained so much self-respect and even if H did leave me, I knew I was going to be allright. He was the one whose life was in turmoil.
Christine
JJ
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Dim Vs Dark. Stop entering into OR talks with him. I don't think you give any of your strategies enough time to determine if they will work or not.
If he starts an OR talk, stop trying to seize control of it. Listen, and answer his questions with short breif sentences. Ask no questions of your own.
His first reaction is gona be withdrawal. He does this to figure you out. Then you panic and change back and whamm, your back to square 1.
Whatever your plan is, you need to implement it consistantly and give it at least 2 weeks to a month to see if it works. Unless there is a severe adverse reaction, stick to it.
I'm not an advocate of darkness. Not for you. Instead, start your detatchment in stages. This is what dimness is about. Never totally detatch. Just go far enough to make it look like you are moving forward in your life regardless of H. Let H see that his crisis is his problem. Do it with actions, not words.
Never make it appear that you don't care. However, make it obvious that you refuse to let his crisis and his choices pull you down.
Ya gotta be strong darlin. Don't know what else I can offer to you.
K
JJ
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The way I see it anyone trying to restore their M whether a "newbie" arriving here on their first day to already D'd and still believing in the possibilty of getting back together again are all trying to put the pieces back together again. So if you're comfortable here ... welcome!
Quote: I just dont see how I can get beyond all that has happened and ever be happy w/him again.
Ironic how the perspectives reverse themselves. This is exactly the way the WAS view the R when they decided to turned away! It is only with being consistant with our changes over time that we were able to convince them it can be turned back around again for the better.
... and that is exactly what will need to happen to change your current outlook of the future ... by showing consistantly over time in his actions from here on out that he can be trusted.
Take it one day at a time ... keep you mind open to the possibilty that one day it can happen ... for now act "as-if" you're giving him the benefit to the doubt because one day the trust will be there ... give him time to convince you with his actions that you can trust and respect him again and it will take a lot of time for you to become convinced, so it will take lotsa patience from you that he will have to repeatedly prove it to you before you will accept it.
Just as it took time for your 180's to seem real to him, it gonna take time for you to trust his "new" changes are real too.
'til later, KAW
JJ
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Many "self-help" books that I've read are layed out so they have some very specific "answers" to very specific "problems". They work on a "one-size-fits-all" theory, which, although it might make them "popular" at the bookstand, it doesn't always help to make them "effective".
-some stuff may work BUT some may backfire AND some may not even be tried because it does not 'fit' the 'label'...
! How are things? I just wanted to say hi to you & SG because it's been so long. Still miss you guys sometimes.
