Hey bud-- glad to see that you have calmed down and taken a deep breath. You asked me over, so I'm gonna give you my frank opinion, okay?
Stop thinking about it all so hard.
Yeah, I know, it's easier said than done for all of us, but you seem especially inclined to analysizing what your wife means and does and etc, etc. when the simple fact is, she doesn't even understand why she does what she does anymore.
I mean, she chose to act a certain way to minimize the pain she was feeling-- and she says it took 10 years for her to get to that point... I'll echo the others in saying that maybe your expectations that her perception of you would change, even in one year, might be a little high...
I'll also echo the others in saying that ya gotta look at the positive. She's not saying that she's going to leave... she just doesn't want to spend every waking moment trying to figure out how to make things better...
It might suck for you to hear this dear heart, but the truth is, she don't feel like she HAS to work at the relationship-- from her standpoint, she did her work the past ten years, so all things considered, it's YOUR turn. You hypothesize about her feeling guilt, but if she's like the average could be walk away-- if she's anything like ME, she's not feeling guilty cause she feels like she's given it her all when you weren't worried about the relationship. So now, it's not her problem.
I know-- it sucks to have the brunt of the work on you-- and it's gotta be worse for a man because ya'll don't normally have the brunt of the R work... but that's just the way it is right now.
My suggestion to you is to spend the next three months thinking about what attracted her to you in the very beginning of ya'lls relationship... the stuff she told you she liked, the stuff she seemed to enjoy, stuff she suggested ya'll do that maybe you did at first but slowly stopped doing...
Then slowly start introducing that stuff back into ya'lls life when you return. She has a close MF-- look at what she and he share together by way of interests... what do they talk about? If you want a return to intimacy and a return to the friendship you once had, you'll have to see what that friendship stemmed from... and then slowly reintroduce those things-- but not in a forceful way-- just casual, with no pressure the same way her friends would do it.
JJ
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I would not let others stress you out about your W. You know her best.. and you know what actions you can live with...Its amasing sometimes how other people will tell you what to say and how to handle things in your life. example ..the money thing.
My friends were giving me so called good advise daily, i would just listen and smile..without any real comment. If i would of listened to them i dont think i would of ever gotten my H back...so many were telling me to get on with my life and forget the past. So glad i was able to think for myself..i know they meant well, but they couldnt reliese i wanted him back and was going to work for it and at it.
Back to your question about your W...I just told lulu, on her thread too that when my H was gone, before he came back he was calling and coming over for reasons he never was before....sometimes they were just to tell me what was on TV..later, when he came back he told me it was because he missed me and missed talking to me so he would even make up reasons... Rememeber, what they say, actions mean more than words...and if she is finding little ways to keep in touch, thats a great step. You also have to be careful tho and not read into everything either or rush her into any talk about OR or D..right now that is taboo.....You want to remain being her friend and remain letting her set the pace, so not to pressure her. and dont be surprised if for a few days she seems really close and then out of the blue she is distant....this happens to all. Its our spouses trying figure out what there doing, there confused at this point. They made this decision and now thier heart is telling them something different..
Keep DBing and keep being the best you, you can be. and remember PATIENCE....it all comes in baby steps.. YOur doing great
Nancy
JJ
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Firstly try not to listen to friends and family. Whilst well meaning they AREN'T in your position and DON'T know how you feel. You will get totally conflicting advice, and end up more confused and panicked than you already are. You know what you want, don't be put off. Do what you need to do to have the best chance of getting your wife back, thats to stick to the DBing.
Get your advice from us here, we KNOW what you are going through and will give far better advice than family and friends.
Your wife is in total "selfish" mode at the moment. Nothing and no-one matters to her but her, this is normal. She will only want to hear from people who agree with her, its her way of justifying to herself what she is doing. By talking to people that think she's doing the wrong thing it will force her to face up to her actions, she isn't ready for that. It WILL come, but more than likely only once she has real space and time to sit and think about the situation she is in.
You HAVE GOT a REAL chance RIGHT NOW to prove you can change. Don't try telling her, she will not want to hear. Actions speak louder than words, so start working on yourself and let her see the new, real you. Make sure you have a real PMA, act happy around her, let her see that you are getting on with life. Start doing some things FOR YOU, things that you have thought about doing but never got around to. You will become far more attractive to her if she sees you getting on with and enjoying your life.
Now is the time for you to work on YOU. Let her be for a while, let her wonder what you are up to. Go and have some REAL fun, might just make her think differently about you.
Relax.
TONY
JJ
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Dave, I have not followed you story as I am rarely on these boards these days since rebuilding a life with my wife takes most of my time. One thing you said really jumped out at me.
"Her new attitude can be best described as deeply angry. she is tired of being taken for granted and disrespected. from now on you'd better believe, she is not going to be pushed by anyone."
Was your wife taken for granted and disrespected, and if she was it bet she is angry. Her actions and reactions are very normal. If she felt that way in the past she probably got to a point she felt she didnt even know who she was or why she even tried. Now she is in a position where she feels she has to rediscover who and what she is. Many times WAW's totally detach to do this. Whether it be conscious or subconscious they feel the need to focus on them selves with little regard to the world around them to get back on track and feel good about them and the world once again.
From someone who has been through it all and is finally coming to the end of the tunnel this is what you need to do. Never talk about your relationship. Keep talk about your D to only necessary things since she sees you as "always talking about your D". Talking about kids can be a double edged sword. Yes, it may evoke some sense of family in them but usually if the time is too soon they feel you are smoothering them with family talk, and kid talk usually ends up turning into emotional talk they dont want to deal with. How does she act when you just talk to her, ie light chit chat? As for the date question it was not a bad thing, but she gave her answer so let it go for now and give her some time to let it sink in. Now just have some pleasant light contact with her when possible and dont pressure her, judge her, or blame her for anything. See what happens just keeping things light and friendly.
JJ
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No one person can hand you a win (if win is defined as reconcilliation). A win depends on three things. You and your attitude, your W and her attitude and the grace of god. I realize that unlike many friends on this board, I was very lucky. I actually saw what was happening before the bombs started falling. My W did'nt want to talk about anything as she was lost in her own personal crisis. I found Micheles DB book about a week before the S talk bomb fell(again luck).
I had been struggling with my R with W for a year and the DB book was the first time I had some tools to use (you know guys and tools). Our first C told me it was hopeless and to prepare for W to leave me. I was losing everything I cared about and I was desparate. I chose to follow her advice to the best of my ability. Did I backslide? You bet. Did people on this board help pull me out of despair? you bet. Are things improving? Yep. Could my situation turn about and take a dive? possibly.
I'm rambling as I'm a little confused on the jealosy comment. I guess I always looked at my battle as a personal one. I asked advice and processed the info and made my own decision wether to apply it or not. I listened to alot of good advice from this board. Most of it consistant with Micheles principles.
In the end it was my W who made the final choice to work on reconcilliation. Her choice, which I had no control of, is what has brought us back into a positive relationship.
My head is pretty much cleared out at this point. I can see my struggle in others on this board. My advice to all is stick to Micheles principles. Use the board when you are confused as to whether you are applying it properly. Don't rely on any one person (except yourself) as having the answers. After all, it's your M and your life.
Kent
JJ
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I never had to resort to LRT's per say. Instead, I performed a number of 180's that worked like magic.
1. I stopped pursuing W with whining, crying, begging and pleading.
2. I stopped snooping into her personal business. I stopped calling suspected OM's, friends, parents. I stopped hiring tele number traces.
3. Here is the biggy. A big part of my problem was associated with general resentment and disatisfaction with my job. With the help of some personal counseling, a job change and a genuine decision to change my attitude, I pulled it off. This is why I have been saying I am happy and feel pretty damn good. It's because I really do. The tough part was pulling this off while W was talking about separation. This was the big change that made the real difference. It affects everything and all your relationships.
4. We found a better counselor. After the first C told me to throw in the towel, I became very depressed. However, I did not give up. I went to my Dr., got some medication and continued to push myself into a growth mode. I interviewed my new C and explained what we had been thru and what my expectation was in regards to the kind of help she would provide. The new C has stuck to the deal.
As I said before, alot of my success had to do with luck and timing. The other ingredients were Michele's guidance and shear determination on my part. For me it fell into place and worked quickly.
There are others on this board that have been thru much more than I. There are many on this board who have not experienced the luck and good timing that I had. There are others on this board who's WAS's have alot more personal problems than my W has.
I am not one to question about LRT's. I think there is probably alot more 180ing to do before you resort to this step. This is individual choice. Take ILM for example. She has been divorced for at least 3 years and has still not moved to LRT mode. I say if you are to the point where you can't take it anymore, 1st back-off take a long break and come back at it rested rather than exhausted. Save the LRT's for when you are really at that point where you can't go on.
One last thought. The big change caused alot to happen for me. The change in my attitude has opened my eyes to many things I never saw before. In a previous thread, I mentioned that I am being hit with new realizations several times a week. I am just beginning to understand what real change has done and how it feels. What am I trying to say? When you have accomplished real change, you know it.
As, I said, my situation seemed to hinge on recognizing that my attitude was bad, why it was bad and really change it. There were some other pieces that may warrant more explaination.
My W was having trouble dealing with our two lil ones, boys 5 and 3 (now). I kept the lousy job because I felt i needed to be home as much as possible. I came home from work every night to take the kids off her hands. Weekends were the same story. I cooked, cleaned, dry walled, framed, mowed and just about everything else.This on top of being the bread winner. Over time I built resentment for W without really realizing it. It would come out in little snips as well as in my eventual withdrawl which was a result of her withdrawl from the family. This is what I meant when I had to give up the resentment. Saying it was not good enough. I had to prove it with my actions.
I think the 180's Michele speaks of in reference to off the wall are not just crazy stunts. They are changes that W will have a hard time beleiving that are part of you. For me giving up the bad things I spoke of was an off the wall 180. What things would your W have trouble beleiving were true if you told her. These are suppose to be good changes, not just crazy crap. They also need to be real.
Another off the wall 180 would be a discussion I had with Cliff a while back. He was seeing twinges from W that seemed to indicate she was communicating with the mother ship again. Cliff had to pull a 180 as a maintenence issue. He had to stop being so reliable and do something unexpected to get her attention. Something that showed he was concerned about recent events and that he was his own guy. His move was to not come home sometimes. He would act mysterious, go out kinda breaking the Mr. reliable bubble. I tried a similar move and found W to take notice. It is very similar to the pursuer distancer syndrome. Unfortunately, W needs to be around for these moves to have an affect.
When W is not home or even when she is still home and just not interested, the 180's need to be big and real and obvious. She will also need to see that you are going to be happy and strong and get on with your life with or without her. You make yourself into the strong happy guy you were when you originally met.
JJ
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My situation began to turn around when one night when I had been reading to my two little ones I felt this overwhelming rush of knowing that no matter what happened everything would be alright. I continued to love my H thereafter, but was able to say, "he has to go through what he has to go through on his timeline." I became more confident again and I think that ultimately was more appealing to my H as he realized I still wanted him back, but did not need him back--life would go on. It seems pretty universal that walkaways hate or, at least, are not equipped to deal with, neediness and will crawl deeper into their caves when they sense it in their spouse. Perhaps it's mostly subconscious, but they really very often seem to have so much on their own plates to contend with that anyone else's needs puts them over the edge. None of this justifies their conduct, but it does possibly help to understand it when you detach from the patterns.
As always, best of luck--Jamie
JJ
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Usually, the first few months of separation are very tough. Both parties are suffering the results of the separation. Sometimes, I think our partners have (in a different way) as difficult a time facing the separation as we do. They are caught in a position that is as strange and new as the position in which we find ourselves. In confusion, despair, hurt or whatever……….they simply lie because they have no answers or don’t know what to say to us. They make up what they think we wish to hear to buy more time, salve their conscience, etc. It’s not the right thing to do, but I’m not sure that they have not, just now, become "liars" by nature. If they weren’t liars prior to the separation, they probably aren’t really liars now. They’re dealing with their current problem by lying.
Time and patience are, I believe, the two very important ingredients in attempting to save your marriage. Time is necessary to change. I changed aspects of myself immediately after my wife left me. These were changes that anyone could see. I immediately became aware of my tendency to become angry over inconsequential matters. I ceased the outward appearance of anger immediately, but the inner tendency remained for months. Now, I can handle any situation without getting angry. The inner tendency is very nearly gone and no one knows it’s there but me. I know it will take quite a bit more time until the tendency, that only I know exists, is gone. Even then, I’ll always be watching for it, just in case it rears it’s ugly head like a monster that’s been, supposedly, killed near the end of a grade B Sci-Fi movie. You’ve given up smoking and drinking and have begun to work out regularly. These are a lot of changes to have been made in a very short time. Sometimes, I believe, it’s easy to make a lot of changes in the beginning. We have a lot of adrenaline running and a very strong desire to show that we are changing. Time will allow you to test yourself on your changes. Thank goodness for time. Keep using time to improve yourself and to make sure that your changes are there to stay.
Patience is needed in huge portions. I think of how I treated my wife for the six years that we were married, prior to our separation. If the roles had been reversed and my wife had treated me as I treated her for six years, then she presented herself to me as being changed, how long would it take for me to believe she had really changed? We, as humans, are probably the most cynical when it comes to believing that someone has really changed themselves. We all know how tough true change is to come by. Think about how hard it is to stop a habit like biting your nails or yelling at people while driving in traffic. We’re attempting to make some major changes here. Our partners are, simply, not going to believe that these changes are permanent until they witness these changes for awhile. It will take some longer than others to recognize the changes. The reality is that some will be sidetracked and may not return to us in spite of our changes. This makes it even harder to exercise patience, but we have no choice. We must give time a chance and be, almost blindly, patient.
The good news…………..when YOU can appreciate your changes, irrelevant to how you believe your wife perceives you……………you will have become self-assured in your changes. This means that you can carry on for YOU. If your wife wishes to join you, as the changed, self-confident, courageous and loving man that you’ve become, great. Extend yourself to your wife as a genuine friend and as a progressively changing man. She will, over time, come to a decision to come back, or not. YOU on the other hand, have already made your decision to be a changed individual irrelevant to her. Relish and enjoy the new person that you are becoming. Explore all the benefits of having a body that will perform better for YOU. Explore the benefits of optimistic thinking and self-confidence. Explore the ability to be emotionally supportive to your wife even if she isn’t supportive to you. Be a better friend to her than she is to you. Feel the inner power of knowing that you have something few other men, even your wife’s friend, have. You have the power to walk through this situation with confidence, dignity and self-control AND continually change for the better. Give yourself the time to change and be patient with your situation. I maintain that miracles can’t happen, when involving a relationship, unless time and patience are specific partners to that miracle.
Keep coming here for support and to glean information from us who have been or are going through similar situations. If you haven’t read Divorce Busting, I strongly recommend that you purchase the book and read it as soon as possible.
I wish you the best in your DB’ing future.
David
JJ
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Generally you have to give any new technique at least a couple weeks to see if it works. The concept of "going dark" for some doesn't work as well as going "dim" - that is, to have some limited contact and keep in touch in a friendly manner. Don't worry too much that your darkness/dim will give the impression that you want a D. If anything, you can say you are busy working on yourself and want to give your S some space. One of the goals of going dark/dim is to make the S wonder about you, and initiate contact and become the pursuer instead of you. Generally when we pursue, the other feels too much pressure to make a decision about the R and doesn't know what to do. You know you want your M and not a D, so give them time to see that the grass isn't greener on their side.
Always be friendly and upbeat when around your S or talking to them. It may seem as unfriendly to cut up credit cards, but you need to protect your own financial interests at this point. It still doesn't mean you want a D.
Try to recognize your level of dark/dim and what works. This level may need to be adjusted over time too. For example, if you email her and she emails back, that is good, and it's positive if she initiates them too. Then from there you wait to see if she initiates phone calls. Over time the level of trust and comfort builds as you have successful communication. That means talks/emails w/o conflict, bringing up A or OP, or talks about OR. Be like a good friend, someone who doesn't pressure them.
Our goal is to eventually get our S to fall back in love w/ us and recognize that we are able to change and are worth staying in the M for. While dark we try to recognize what we did wrong in the R and improve/change ourselves. Then our S notices these things.
JJ
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