I think before you can really find 180's that work, you need to spend a bit of time studying interactions. Here are few I found that might fit for you because we too, didn't seem to have things that annoyed each other.
1) Eye contact - I was the consumate multitasker - always doing 20 things at once. Now, I make conscious effort to stop what I am doing, look at H, make and sustain eye contact and listen to what he is saying. 2) I had a habit of finishing H's sentences. I now wait for him to finish his thoughts before replying. 3) I also had tendency to offer unsolicited advice and solutions to problems. I now try not to offer advice unless asked. 4) Here is a little one that I hung on to forever - don't ask me why. I would always greet H warmly at end of day and say " how was your day? Anything interesting happen?" It NEVER worked! He always would say fine and no and that was that. It took me a long time to give it up by I finally did. Now, I greet him with a hello and leave it at that. And you know what, after he unwinds a bit, he usually tells me about his day. I then practice the other things above which keep the conversation going. 5) I had stopped noticing all the small things that happen that should result in pleases and thank yous. I now try to treat spouse like I would a best girlfriend or stranger. I say thank you when he opens doors, does anything around the house, etc. I say please way more often too.
Those are just some ideas. Others for me were limiting outside activities (flies in the face of getting a life) but reality was I had too much of a life outside of marriage. Also, purposefully spending time in prayer and scripture became my means of getting a life. I have found tons of nuggets of wisdom in scripture and try to apply it daily.
JJ
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DR (Divorce Remedy) is a bit more of a systematic approach to the principles in DB....
Some thoughts... There's a lot in your post that you can work on. First, You mention that you don't have anything else to live for, and that you have little faith in the DB ideas of improving and taking care of yourself... That can be a lot of the problem. You've put your happiness and your reason for living on her, and she doesn't want the responsibility of both your and her happiness. What works it to make yourself attractive to her again, make her fall in love with you. Remember what it was that brought you two together in the first place. It wasn't neediness and dependence.
Another thing you've said is that you are an avoider. Well, that's another biggy you'll read about here. It's really a communication thing. A '180' might be to stop avoiding, to participate, to share your feelings and thoughts, even if you think they might sound a bit negative. Don't push them, don't defend them... just state them and if she resists, or ignores them, drop it. They're out there and she'll know what you think and feel and won't have to guess.
Don't try to figure her out. Don't try to convince her that her feelings are wrong. Don't plead with her to love you again. She's confused and she's sorting a lot of stuff out. She says she doesn't love you.... Well join the club. We have all heard that and much worse. It's her confusion about what she wants, what she needs. What she doesn't need is any more negative feelings toward you.
Take care of you. Get out, do things for you. Invite her, be her friend, but if she refuses to join you, don't take issue, but go anyway. Find things to do for you, and try to do them away from the house. Create a little mystery about yourself. Don't hide things, just don't volunteer things unless she asks, and don't resent her if she doesn't ask. Take care of you, and make her curious about you, and make yourself attractive to her.
z
JJ
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180's are really just doing something differently than you have in the past. Everyone's story here is different, but I can tell you what kinds of 180's worked for me. I started out doing 180's that I thought would make my H act toward me in certain ways. That approach didn't work and I got discouraged. Then I realized that the 180's were really for me and for stopping the patterns/ruts we were in.
As for what will make her feel less neglected, it really depends on her. My C showed me that looking at our arguments was a clue to what H needed. H needed for me to "do" things for him. As unnatural as that is for me--I just don't think of washing a car as an act of love--I did. Michele calls this real giving. A book that helped me with that was The Five Love Languages by Gary Chapman. (You can also do an internet search and get the idea of the book.) Yes, gift giving could be perceived as pursuing, especially if she is not open to that.
JJ
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Dear Stay Calm, I encourage you not to think in terms of "fatal mistakes". That perspective only adds fear to your thinking, which can cause some pretty reactive responses. Instead, try to learn something about your relationship with that last interaction and use it to move in a positive, forward direction.
What do I mean by that? Ask yourself, "What could I take from this episode that will help me next time"? It appears that at this time in your R, sharing previously undisclosed secrets only verifies to your wife that she can't trust you. So, now you know not to do that again. Be gentle with yourself...you will not do everything perfectly, but keep watching what does and doesn't work and keep making adjustments!!
Also, as others have, I encourage you to pull back on the questions, as hard as that is. Your questions may feel very intense to your W which will cause her to pull away. I know you have a need for some response from her...but it does not appear this is the right time to pursue it.
Calm, it's hard to stress enough at this point how important it is to allow space in the R. I have seen many relationships where one spouse wants to do everything to "fix it" (except "backing off"), and it almost always distances and moves the relationship closer to D. However, you sound like someone who is able to make the necessary and painful changes needed. I wish you well and hope you had a productive counseling session!
I highly encourage you to read DR - especially Chapter Two: "Start with a Beginner's Mind". Take care, Laurie
JJ
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The Last Resport Technique does not equal stopping all contact. A lot of times you will get that idea from the way people are applying it, but that is not true, especially if you have not been communicating well, or at all, recently.
Here is a summary of the LRT, which is in Chapter 6 of Divorce Remedy:
1. Stop the chase. This means do not act desperate. Do not cry, beg, pursue, buy gifts or flowers, or say I Love You. If you do, you will make her feel guilty and angry, which is not pleasant, and she will not want to be around you. This does NOT mean you totally leave her alone, especially if that was one of the main problems that led to her leaving.
2. Get a life. If you are too obsessed with the breakup, you will be depressed, moping, and not a lot of fun to be around. Why should she want to be with you when you are like that? Besides, you are miserable, which is no fun for you. Go out with friends, join a class, go to the movies, start a hobby, do whatever it is that you enjoy. Stay busy. Try to think of what attracted her to you in the first place, and do that. Did you go to museums together? Were you a good cook? Make yourself attractive to her (not just physically), and make yourself as happy as possible, which is also attractive. Plus, throw in a few things that are totally out of character. Never been to an art show? Start going. Never been interested in water skiing? Time to take it up. Shake things up a little, do the unexpected.
3. Wait and Watch. This is where patience comes in. Watch to see how she responds. If you are doing the right things, it will make her curious as to what you are up to, and will make her more interested in being with you. If you are not catching her attention after a few weeks, try doing something different. Once you get her attention, talking to her is fine, but don't get grabby or overexcited, stay cool, be vague about what is going on, and DO NOT talk about your relationship. DO NOT talk about the divorce. Sooner or later she will initiate talks, but for a while, if she starts to, steer the conversation to other topics.
Think of this like reeling in a fish. If you don't set the hook just right, if you panic and try to reel it in too fast, it will get away. Move very slowly, and you will be fine.
One trick that has served me well is to act with total unconditional love. Be a friend, be non-judgemental, act out of love and consideration for her best interests. She will probably be angry and grumpy at first, but keep at it, don't get discouraged, don't believe all the negative stuff that she says, and eventually she will start responding to you.
Do not do anything to encourage the divorce or help it along. Once you get the book, start working on setting out some goals. This is very, very important. And above all, it is not too late until YOU decide it is!
I hope this helps explain WHY you need to get on with your life. You need to become attractive and pleasant to be around, so she will want to be with you.
JJ
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Bill: Real quick note while I'm at work. I remember reading your first post around the same time as I started posting. We have shared alot of this journey. My opionion, for whatever they're worth is:
1. Separation is not a bad thing. It has helped my w and I a great deal. We are moving very, very slowly toward reconciliation, but whether we'll make it all the way there or not I don't know. We could not have even started the slow movement back without the last 3+ months of separation. In retrospect, I should have detached way more, way quicker. LRT done with love and compassion would have helped my situation a lot. A day or two after a I really profoundly released my wife emotionally and spiritually, she made the first overture toward reconciliation she has made since she dropped the bomb in March. I don't know if the two are related or not, but I believe they are.
2. I know this is a really hard one, but patience, patience and more patience. I think these things have a time frame completely of their own. What has absolutely struck me is the suddenness of my wifes change. On December 5th she gave me the long version of your 5 minute talk. On January 1st it looked like she had a happy relationship with Om that she was sharing with my kids. I truely thought she was completely gone on 1/1/01 and that night, in profound pain, I released her from her vows and took off my ring. On 1/5, pretty much on a lark, I sent her a fax that said she could move back and that I still wanted to reconcile. I expected either no response or a very negative response to the fax. She responded very positively and I learned that she has been slowly moving toward me, even when things looked hopeless. I have no idea what happened. There was no hint or suggestion that she was at least still open to reconciling.
3. The fact your w is still "on the fence" even after all these months is probably a very, very positive sign and I'm sure you are a much more attractive man than you were when you wrote the first post.
In retrospect, I wish I had acted "as if" the marriage were over early on while remaining simply open to the idea of reconcilation, gone much darker during the early separation and done all of this with very loving detachment.
MF
JJ
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I posted this on my: "Long Journey Home Thread" but it occured to me that it might be useful, all on it's own.
I am planning to start a thread soon in the forum: "Piecing Our Marriage Back Together" See ya there!
Here are a few things I did to DB my H while all the craziness was going on:
·I found more ways to focus on my children and myself.
·I forced myself to stop thinking about what my H was doing and how unfair it was.
·I realized there is really nothing I could do about my H’s behavior anyway.
·I learned to state boundaries in a friendly none threatening tone. And I stated those boundaries quickly and succinctly.
·I tried to process all my emotions in a healthy way that allowed me to stay calm just about 24/7. (If I became angry I broke plates against a wall to get out the anger.)
·I worked on my self-esteem.
·I started going out once a week and having H watch the kids.
·I tried to stay in touch with my emotions as best as I could and release them as close to the incident as possible even if I thought I felt fine.
·I "acted as if", I was going on with my life, I gave my H some breathing room.
·I tried different 180’s.
· I became more unpredictable. One fourth of July H said he was going out. (Not spending it as a family) So I had a barbeque and invited lots of people over and celebrated without him.
·I became mysterious.
· I stopped initiating any conversation.
· I went to my room as soon as he came home.
· I laughed a lot and enjoyed my kids in my room with the door shut.
· I never made plans that included him.
· I stopped interfering and/or helping along his relationships with the kids.
· I stopped keeping him informed on the kids.
·I avoided OR talks.
· I stopped confronting him.
· I left the room first and ended conversations first.
·I was always friendly but distracted.
·I stopped defending myself.
·I listened to him ad- nauseum.
· I sat in therapy sessions and let him express his anger at me until I couldn’t do it anymore.
·I took antidepressants
·Went to counseling by myself.
·Made a list of all of my good points and talents(To remind myself of my worth)
·I took stock of what about myself could be improved and did so.
·I prayed
·I became more focused on what I had to be grateful for.
·I gave the whole situation over to God.
The above are a "few" of the things that I did.
I hope this helps someone!
JJ
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I got angry at myself too. I think you're passing through some very normal stages. I thought the begging, pleading, pursuing actions were the right things to do as well. If it wasn't for people like Michele, I think everyone would still be trying the things that come naturally that don't work! Thank heavens for DB'ing solutions.
It takes time to get past the anger and the guilt and the hurt--but once you're on the other side, and I'm largely there right now, it feels wonderful. It feels so incredible to have control back--but not the illusion of control I had before--the illusion that I could control many aspects of my life and my relationship.
I now realize that I can control how I choose to respond to situations and I can at least control in some measure my own happiness and that is why I am so happy right now and so settled.
My W has commented on how much calmer I am and how much happier I am.
I think you're on the right path, praying and trying to find inner peace--it will come. It takes time and patience--lots of patience and lots of time--however your situation is resolved.
Invest a major amount of time working on yourself and your happiness right now and you'll have the strength and calmness to accept whatever happens.
Don't be too hard on yourself for too long. Many others, most definitely including myself, have walked the torturous path you're on right now and let me promise you that there is a better path once you find your sense of self again.
Hang in there and keep DB'ing as you lovingly detach,
Cliff
JJ
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When doing the LR, and your spouse sparks some interest, the rule of thumb is NOT to be overly responsive. Michele Weiner Davis says: --Be loving in return, but NOT overly excited or enthusiastic. --Accept some invitations to spend time together, but not all. --Do not ask questions about your future together. --Be vague when asked questions about the changes in you. --Continue to be upbeat. --Do not say, "I love you." --Resist getting into conversations about your marriage. --Beat your spouse to the punch when it comes time to leave an activity.
You need to continue to stay cool until you're absolutely certain that your spouse wants you back. You may get overly excited with your spouse's sudden interest in you. However, don't show it. Continue the LR, and stop pursuing behaviors. If you don't, it will backfire.
Good luck. /Tia
JJ
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Since your contact is limited, maybe start with some physical changes that will catch her eye right away. New haircut, dressing one step sharper than normal, getting in super physical shape, etc...
One thing you don't want to do is verbally broadcast your changes or ability to change. "Hey W, look at me, I'm changing". Actions speak much louder than words, and the consistency of those actions is what will really have her believing you have/are changed/changing.
Don't worry if she doesn't say anything about noticing your changes. You need to change your strategy though if you get negative feedback from her 'cause what you're doing is most likely having a negative effect.
If it's good for you in a positive way, and helps you become a better person, then keep doing those things. How you're feeling about yourself can sometimes be as or more effective than how she presently feels about you. Feelings change, and rather quickly at times.
G
JJ
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