Here's what I used to do when I would feel such a compelling urge to contact my H and seek some type of assurance: I would almost chant to myself that it was very possible (perhaps likely) that my inquiry alone could push my H further from me and make it a real possibility that he'd zing me further as I pushed for answers or some form of encouragement. It all really requires taking a deep breath and understanding that the walkaway often cannot handle being pushed on questions re. the status of things, whether there has been progress, what the prognosis of things is.... We feel like we need answers NOW and they don't typically want to deal with things until they are ready. It's not fair or easy, but do not attempt to "take her pulse" because it may push her away. Also, as Michele points out in her book, if we openly worry about the relationship and express it to our spouse, he or she doesn't have to worry about it (at least not as much).
I like Greg's suggestion to possibly stop responding to all of her e-mails. She might need to miss you and wonder what you are doing and thinking.
Hang in there--Jamie
JJ
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Hi Strat- Sorry there have been no respones to your post before now. The answer to your question of whether there is any hope is a strong YES! From what you have described, your present way of communicating with your W in a supportive and nonconfrontational manner is working. I would not suggest that you do anything significantly different because you've noted that she is warming up to you and expressing concern about your well being. I deem that change as a sign that what you are doing is allowing her to lower her walls and defense mechanisms a bit.
The danger that you face, in light of the improvements, is overzealousness in trying to have things happen even faster. It is likely critical that you move slowly now and not do anything to show that her friendly signals to you have triggered additional expectations. You need to strike that healthy balance of an abundance of positive mental attitude and being exceptionally alert to process new signals from your W. You've indicated that she will need to feel in control and it would seem that openly offering her continued support while you focus on your own issues will likely rebuild her respect and trust.
Letting go of any anger that may linger is also a must as you try to be her long distance best friend. The 6 month period she has mentioned is probably not carved in stone, but try not to let the idea of that separation dominate your actions or thoughts. It is unfortunately too easy to drag yourself down psychologically by looking at the negatives and feeling overwhelmed by the moment's stumbling blocks. View whatever length of separation that you may have as an opportunity to make changes that will, on the one hand, possibly result in a healthier marriage, but, on the other, guarantee a healthier life for you.
I would not press your W for a visit or for answers re. what she wants from the marriage now. Let her take the lead and let her know the measures you're taking to address issues that are your own and that need improvement. You know her best and perhaps there are little things that you could do that would remind her of the man with whom she fell in love. Wait as long as you think those things would be perceived as pressure for particular responses from her.
I'm not sure if you have read "Divorce Busting" yet, but get a copy and read it ASAP if you don't have it in your collection. You seem to be on the right track and know the caution that you need to use in your interaction with your W, albeit limited to the phone now. Best of luck--
Jamie
JJ
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The first thing that you must do though is decide if, you want your H back. I wanted my H back.
I gave him all the space he needed. He left me. During this time I tried my very hard to focus on myself. I had changed over the years and really wasn't happy with the turn our marriage had taken. I had stopped meeting his needs, it was kind of like tit for tat.
When I would see him I would try to act very upbeat. No one really wants to be around someone that appears down all the time. I would smile, smile and smile. I eventually learned not to discuss OR with him or the ow. This always turned into an arguement. The last thing I wanted to do was argue. When I did see him I looked my best. These are all the same things that I used to do early in our marriage and when we dated.
In an odd sort of way, I became the ow. I would laugh at his jokes and show interest in everything that he wanted to talk about. I didn't give him my opinion on anything, I only listened.
All the while I was doing this I could see that it was working. It took a very long time. Yes, he was having his cake and eating too. BUT, he also started to realize that maybe he may lose me for good. I think that it is very important to keep the lines of communication open.
JJ
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Well, I feel there are several reasons for going dark, and some of them are FRT (First Resort Tactics).
1) Because you cannot control yourself when talking to your SO. Maybe you get in arguments, maybe you beg and plead. So, you limit the contact and find peace within yourself.
2) Because they cannot control themselves. Why listen to someone berate you or try and control you?
3) To be mysterious. Make them wonder what you're up to. Works best with grey rather than dark. (Sorry I wasn't home last night to get your call. Huh? Oh, I was just out with some friends. Oh, I was out at the movies.) I actually did the movie thing - I'd go to catch a flick, come home to find a message. Then get the grilling - where were you? Who were you with?
4) You're done with them and would rather listen to Barry Manilow do Metallica then talk to them ever again.
5) You forgot to pay the phone bill.
JJ
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It's really difficult to stop pursuing someone you love. We think if we just find the right words, we'd be able to make our WAS see reason and come back to us. It doesn't work, does it? It didn't for me, that's for sure, and it makes them just that much more determined to get away from us.
Sit down with your DR or DB book in the section that talks about goals and "more of the same" behavior. Have you actually sat down and written this out? I found it very helpful. Being aware of self defeating behavior is the first step in eliminating it.
After you have done that it may be easier for you to deal with your WAW in a more constructive way. Keep asking yourself "is what I'm about to say/do going to bring me closer to my goal, or farther from it?" If the answer is "farther", stop and look for an alternative.
Your situation has some similarities to my own. My H didn't feel like either of us had our independance anymore, and that was really important to him. When I thought about it objectively, I had to agree with him. That's what we're working on now. Each of us is being more independent, which makes us feel more like PARTNERS, instead of people who NEED each other.
Giving her the space she needs right now doesn't mean she won't come back, or that you don't care. It's probably the most loving thing you can do for her. And it gives you time to take care of yourself too!
JJ
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I arrived on this bb in August 2001. I wasn't ready to post my story, so I started reading others' posts and went digging thru some really old threads. I read read read for a month I have learned so much by reading and then putting into practice what I've read. I don't claim to be an expert, far from it, but here is what I have learned so far.
#1- I learned most from the "oldtimers" who have been doing this DB thing for many moons. I've taken the opportunity to learn from their mistakes. Yes, each sitch is different but why repeat mistakes of others when they have already shown it does not work?
#2- Most (if not all) variations to DBing do NOT work. I don't know best and its part of listening to advise. Variations are a way of keeping to the old brain thinking. Start w/the beginners mind
#3- I needed to learn to shut up and listen! What a concept- listening. Was I able to do it?
#4- I had to really look at myself from H's perspective. He'd been telling me my faults- Why couldn't I accept them? Well, probably because I wasn't listening and was to wrapped up in pointing the finger back at him. What did I do to help in the R breakdown? Now, what can I do to change my faults? (Not only for the R if it is to be, but for possible future Rs as well)
#5- Learning to forgive. After hearing H for the 1st time, I had a lot of guilt in my own actions and reactions in the R breakdown. I needed to forgive myself first. Once I forgave me, I could then freely forgive H for what I felt was his part. He never asked for forgiveness, but I gave it freely anyway through my own free will.
#6- Acceptance. I've accepted that this is where I am.
#7- How to get out of the turmoil/drama- I was causing my own turmoil. By getting so wrapped up in trying to figure out what H was doing, thinking and feeling, I was keeping myself entangled in something I had no control over. He is him and I am me. I control me and make my own choices- he does the same for himself.
#8- Aliens. Hahaha. Its a nice word for someone who is/has becoming his own person and taken away our control. We call them aliens because we don't understand why they say what they say or do what they do. H stopped running with the "program"- my program- which made him different and in turn made himself out to be an "alien". He wasn't happy w/the program so he threw the wrench (No i didn't say wench ) into the works. Listen to the aliens and accept them for who they are and show patience.
#9- Making productive and noticeable goals is very important part of DBing. To see the baby steps and changes, write out goals. I look at mine often and have seen the baby steps and changes in H. SET UP GOALS!!!
#10- Taking things personally. Ugh, such trauma when H took off his wedding ring. I look back at it now and say "Why did this bother me so much?" I still wear mine- my choice. Preaching about marriage vows same difference. The WAS more than likely already sees some vow already broken by the left behind spouse (For better or for worse? in sickness and in health? etc) You get my point, so don't preach. A WA is going to do what they are going to do regardless of what you or I think.
#11- NOT Fearing the possibilities and unforeseen future... I was so fearful of losing H that I lost him in the process of fearing. Strange concept. Fear brought on some serious controlling issues from me- tried to control everything. Fear brought out anger and rage. Fear brought out desperateness and clinging. Why fear what could happen? I could die tomorrow, but I don't wake up every morning with the fear of dying tomorrow.
#12- Letting go/Detaching..... I learned 1-10 and was able to detach lovingly. I am H's friend because I know I am his friend and expect nothing in return. I wish him much happiness in everything he is and does.
Laurie
JJ
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Today I was going to attach links to some of my old threads but I decided that my time would be better spent relflecting on what has worked for me. Besides, one of my best threads has vanished into cyberspace. It's too bad because it was the thread where I think I did some of my best DBing.
What worked:
-Don't argue about anything...period. Take a break. Don't overreact. If something is important enough, then it will still be important in several hours. Otherwise just let it go.
-Don't take ANYTHING personally. Check your pride at the door. The WAS will say things that are crazy, untrue and hurtful, but it's not about you...it's about them. They say ugly and hurtful things because they feel ugly and hurt.
-Act "as if". This was my biggest weapon! I even taught my sister how to do this when her BF dumped her and now they are back together. This works at so many different levels that I may have to devote an entire post to this alone. There is a post that keeps getting recycled that defines the "special as if attitude". I read this every night before I went to bed. We must not overreact. We must not get sucked into their pathology. We must act as if everything is fine around us. My H accused me of being delusional. He said that everything in our lives was a mess (it was only in HIS life where everything was a mess...my life was fine). Gradually, H stopped fighting the "as if" attitude and started acting kinder towards me. I think he felt guilty about how bad he was treating me while all the time I was so nice.
-Don't make a fuss over the OP. I kept reading over and over that these infatuations will run their course and eventually fizzle out. I decided to have patience and it did fizzle.
-Decide to have an A with your S. I bought about a thousand books and CDs during my crisis and on one of the CDs the author said, "If you don't have an affair with your H, then someone else will."
-Always take the high road. Don't do anything that you will regret later.
-Be positive. Nobody likes to be around a depressed person. I decided that I had control over my own environment so it was going to be a positive environment and no one had the power, H or anyone else, to destroy it. H could be in his negative space, but I would not allow it to affect my space. I decided to fill up my environment will love an positive energy. It is truly amazing how attractive this makes a person.
I will post more later as they come to me. Everything that I did was not easy. I had to be strong. Stronger than I ever thought possible. There were times when I thought that I was going to crumble under the pressure. I had to be in absolute control of my emotions. No reacting to his antics. In the end, I gained so much self-respect and even if H did leave me, I knew I was going to be allright. He was the one whose life was in turmoil.
Christine
JJ
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Dim Vs Dark. Stop entering into OR talks with him. I don't think you give any of your strategies enough time to determine if they will work or not.
If he starts an OR talk, stop trying to seize control of it. Listen, and answer his questions with short breif sentences. Ask no questions of your own.
His first reaction is gona be withdrawal. He does this to figure you out. Then you panic and change back and whamm, your back to square 1.
Whatever your plan is, you need to implement it consistantly and give it at least 2 weeks to a month to see if it works. Unless there is a severe adverse reaction, stick to it.
I'm not an advocate of darkness. Not for you. Instead, start your detatchment in stages. This is what dimness is about. Never totally detatch. Just go far enough to make it look like you are moving forward in your life regardless of H. Let H see that his crisis is his problem. Do it with actions, not words.
Never make it appear that you don't care. However, make it obvious that you refuse to let his crisis and his choices pull you down.
Ya gotta be strong darlin. Don't know what else I can offer to you.
K
JJ
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The way I see it anyone trying to restore their M whether a "newbie" arriving here on their first day to already D'd and still believing in the possibilty of getting back together again are all trying to put the pieces back together again. So if you're comfortable here ... welcome!
Quote: I just dont see how I can get beyond all that has happened and ever be happy w/him again.
Ironic how the perspectives reverse themselves. This is exactly the way the WAS view the R when they decided to turned away! It is only with being consistant with our changes over time that we were able to convince them it can be turned back around again for the better.
... and that is exactly what will need to happen to change your current outlook of the future ... by showing consistantly over time in his actions from here on out that he can be trusted.
Take it one day at a time ... keep you mind open to the possibilty that one day it can happen ... for now act "as-if" you're giving him the benefit to the doubt because one day the trust will be there ... give him time to convince you with his actions that you can trust and respect him again and it will take a lot of time for you to become convinced, so it will take lotsa patience from you that he will have to repeatedly prove it to you before you will accept it.
Just as it took time for your 180's to seem real to him, it gonna take time for you to trust his "new" changes are real too.
'til later, KAW
JJ
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