I know that I don't, not personally. But you remind me so much of someone.
His name is Jeff, too. And I hurt him terribly. In ways similar to the ways in which you have been hurt.
When I came back from my MLC and had to face him, tell him how wrong I'd been, he was in a place similar to where you feel you are at now. He was just so over it. He'd been hurt so deeply, jerked back and forth for so long, tried so hard...eventually he reached a place of disconnect. It was how he protected himself from any further pain.
We had to interract because of the children. Slowly, so slowly, one brick at a time I started tearing down the wall. It has taken two years. We are still living apart but he never filed for divorce. We are legally separated and neither of us are seeing others. We spend a good deal of time together. Over the past year in particular, we have grown closer. I have seen him take a risk here and there, letting me back in a little at a time. We are good friends now. Close. Sometimes he flirts with me, kisses me, we have "made out" if I may sound like a teenager for a moment. The biggest obstacles we face right now are the fact he's had two surgeries within the last 6 months and the last one, 2 weeks ago, has been really hard for him to recover from. I am the one that is there for him now. His family did not even call him for the first 5 days he was home from the hospital. I did. And I was over there making sure he was okay, had everything he needed. I'd have crawled up in the bed with him and stayed in that hospital room with him and he knows it. He KNOWS it. It has taken 2 years to get to that place. He had a lot of pain to process, then a lot of anger and bitterness. Then he had to allow himself to see the changes in me. And later still, he had to choose to let me be his friend again. If it never goes further than it already has, I have seen a miracle. But it has not been easy. I have swallowed my pride time and time again. That was a piece of cake compared to what he had to do though. He had to take a risk. He had to risk being let down again by me. Even in the smallest way and it was so hard for him. I saw it. I felt it. I appreciated his struggle. Then it became me that fought not to give up. The shoes always change feet, Jeff. Always.
I know this place you are in and all the words you use to try to convince everyone here that you're moving on and just feeling a twinge here and there for the good old days might actually fool a lot of people. Hell, you might even fool yourself, Jeff.
Maybe you need to be in THIS place of supposed detachment for now. It is you protecting yourself and it is a natural reaction.
But there is more coming.
When I was in the worst part of my MLC I had a very unique interaction with a feeble, old, black man I held a door for one day. Once he got outside, he turned and looked at me and said "as sure as the sun is gonna come up tomorrow, time changes things". That was it. Then he turned with his walker and started down the steps. When he said it I felt chills. It was eerie due to the timing - I was in my meanest phase of MLC and screaming for a divorce - But it was even more eerie because I just so happen to find a lot of wisdom in old, black men...they just know stuff, man...and I was riveted in that doorway when he opened his mouth. He might as well have stood there proclaiming the gospel to me. It moved me that much. It's a guarantee, Jeff. Time changes things. It also changes people. You can cocoon yourself up now and feel safe. But as sure as the sun is gonna come up tomorrow, time changes things. You have lost your hope. What you need in that engineers mind of yours, is a little faith.
Why is Jeff being bashed so hard for having big swings of emotions on a holiday, on his birthday, and when his W suddenly has a spurt of nice?
Bashed? I'm not bashing Jeff. I'm STRONGLY encouraging him to get UP, get BACK on his feet and look at the roses around him.
Some people call it 'the 2x4' but for some reason if I speak in these tones, it's 'bashing'. Ok, so be it.
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Frank, I know you care but what are you trying and expecting to accomplish? Jeff says he is done, he no longer cares. I don't totally believe that but it is what he says. Respect it.
I also do not totally believe that. I cannot respect something I don't believe to be true. That would be a lie, and I respect Jeff too much to lie to him, or with him.
I like Jeff. If I didn't I'd just watch him wallow in hurt and not care. Jeff is stronger than this. Sometimes a man just needs other men to observe that.
Thanks so much Amy. I have read your stuff in the past. I still remember you trying to talk that guy out of taking his life back in 2006 (I always wondered if he changed his mind). You are a special person.
Unfortunately you are not my xW.
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When I came back from my MLC and had to face him, tell him how wrong I'd been, he was in a place similar to where you feel you are at now.
You told him that you were wrong. My xW feels she is not wrong about anything.
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Then he had to allow himself to see the changes in me.
You changed. I saw it your words here. It has been some time since I read but I still remember certain posters who attacked you - you, the WAW, how dare you come here and expect the LBS to come back. I thought that so cruel b/c you were changing and everyone deserves a second chance. I am happy to see your R is improving - when I last checked I thought you had little chance.
The key is you changed. That gave your H something, SOMETHING to get hold of. SOME indication that this could work.
But my xW has not changed, is not changing, nor does she feel any need to. She has told me that, several times. I am to blame, not her. I have NOTHING to hold on to.
Her recent "baby steps"? Maybe she is changing? It takes more than a hug and a few interactions to show changes. No, she is just in an emotional spot right now, nothing more.
This is a diffficult situation but it takes two in a R. My xW chooses not to be with me. My xW refuses to see her part in this. My xW refuses to change or even reach out, as you did. This IS NOT my choice.
You see, it does not matter how I feel. I can stand and continue to hope but that does not change the facts here. Plus, it is just plain NOT HEALTHY. For me or my kids.
Love is a choice, that is in my control - I choose to spend my energy on finding new love - not wasting my time on a long-dead relationship.
Again, I appreciate you stopping by - more than you know.
I also do not totally believe that. I cannot respect something I don't believe to be true. That would be a lie, and I respect Jeff too much to lie to him, or with him.
I like Jeff. If I didn't I'd just watch him wallow in hurt and not care. Jeff is stronger than this. Sometimes a man just needs other men to observe that.
There are a lot of things in life that I don't believe. That makes it hard for me to support it but sometimes I must. For instance if my boss makes a decision that I don't believe is the best for the company I give my opinion and my reasons. If he still stands by his decision I have to respect that and support it, or quit my job. Same here, I respect Jeff's decision that he no longer loves and wants to to be back together with his W or I quit reading and posting in opposition. Jeff is the WAH now. You know what would be so great? if his W shocked all of us and said she wanted to try again. Never say never. We could all say 'told ya so'.
Of course there are exceptions to that - if Jeff said he was going to drive his truck into a telephone pole at 100 mph we would not respect or support that decision, try to talk him out of it, or get to Huntsville in time to pull his keys. I don't need a mans genitalia to observe that.
Anyway, this is Jeffs thread and he's a big boy, I'll quit interjecting before this turns into a thread like FIB gets.
Live your life while you are still living. Riding the trail less traveled.
Jeff isn't the WAH because he isn't married. Is that right? Or are you not legally divorced yet?
Interesting story Amy. I haven't read your thread so I didn't know that about you. Still sounds like there is a ways to go.
What I'm trying to understand is why the push for Jeff to try so hard. DBing is primarily about making improvements to yourself, for yourself, and seeing if that causes a reaction in the walk away spouse. If not, you have still gained something. So, if he maintains what he's learned in this process, he's still DBing. The only thing that is different is he isn't holding out hope that his XW will come back. Is holding out hope required to bring back your spouse? Amy, did your husband have to hold on to hope in order to get you to try again with him? You indicated he wasn't even holding out hope....he was done with you. The only thing that will truly ruin his chances of ever reconciling is if he remarries. If that happens, then apparently he found someone else worthy of his love and he isn't out anything if his XW suddenly took an interest in him. If Jeff's XW wants to try with him she has a mouth capable of saying so, and if she really wants to, she'll work to win him back, much as Amy did with her husband.
In the end, it's not the years in your life that count. It's the life in your years. Abraham Lincoln
It is hard to fail, but it is worse never to have tried to succeed. Theodore Roosevelt
Jeff, you did say the one thing which makes me advocate standing DOWN as far as "standing" for a marriage goes. When you realize you are trapped in an unhealthy cycle. If a person reaches that point, it is best they let go in my opinion, too. No one has a crystal ball though and no one benefits if there is unforgiveness in their heart. Make sure that's not you and do try to refrain from thinking you know what is going on in your wife's head. That includes when you would base those conclusions on what comes out of her mouth. Good luck to you.
If I may hijack for a moment...
J_M ~ I don't keep a running thread right now. At least not with up to date reports. I have too much other stuff going on. I did recently post a summary of my story on my thread. It's in separated but it may have been on the one that was recently locked. See how well I keep up?! I just don't.
Further J_M, it is no secret that you and I sit on opposite sides of a well-worn track. Knowing my story isn't going to change that so I don't expect you'll be reading and having any lightbulb moments. Keep on keepin' on.
Just to clarify, my final D-settlement is done and should be signed next month. We will file it after Jan 1 for tax reasons. I now consider former W my xW.
The key is you changed. That gave your H something, SOMETHING to get hold of. SOME indication that this could work.
But my xW has not changed, is not changing, nor does she feel any need to. She has told me that, several times. I am to blame, not her. I have NOTHING to hold on to.
Her recent "baby steps"? Maybe she is changing? It takes more than a hug and a few interactions to show changes. No, she is just in an emotional spot right now, nothing more.
The only observation I have here is that you've skipped the entire part of Amy's story where she talks about how she was in this exact place with her H, blaming, angry, etc. just as your STBXW is.
You know what would be so great? if his W shocked all of us and said she wanted to try again. Never say never. We could all say 'told ya so'.
If that were to occur, I would still move on. I would not subject my children to this again; getting their hopes up only to result in another breakup. And that would be the outcome b/c xW has not done the work, nor does she feel that she needs to do any work here.
So failure is certain.
That may sound angry, but it is not. I am simply stating a fact.
I cannot do this all by myself. And any desire I once had is no longer there.
The WAH or WAW is a very negative label here. Why am I now the WAH?
I thought the final goal of all of this is acceptance; to accept my role in this and forgive me and to accept her role in this and forgive her. To understand that this is finished and that there is nothing I can control. To understand that moving on is the healthy thing to do. To understand that it is really unhealthy for everyone concerned to pursue this any further.
To no longer be stuck.
Why is that so hard for this BB? Maybe b/c they do not want to hear it? Maybe b/c they do not want to believe that this can be their outcome? Or even that they may have to admit to themselves that this should be their outcome?
I read those strong positions on FIB's thread all the time. If only everyone had a chance to talk directly to FIB. They would realize how those discussions affect him, really impact him.
I post all this only to record what I am feeling. My path is my path and it may not be right for others.
Lesson learned: I will always recommend standing at first. I like the one month per year rule. But after that time I will then say to ask yourself what the chances are and are you happy. If your assessment at that time is objective and positive in that you SEE results - stay the course. If you see no results or things are indeed worse, I would then advise moving on. To do otherwise is wasting your life away. I waited too long.
And another lesson learned is that the *detachment* stuff is a buch of bull. Early on it is IMPOSSIBLE to detach. Sure, the DB and GAL stuff helps a lot, but that does not equate to detaching. I don't care what anyone says.
Only after that one month per year mark can you start the detachment process. And IMHO you cannot detach unless you make the real commitment to move on without her/him. A REAL commitment. Only then does the focus shift from *them* to *us*. Only then do we behave without expectations in return. Only then is when the GAL stuff pays off b/c we do it for us, not for them or to escape the situation.
Unfortunately, as Michelle points out in her books, we are not the clingy little boy/girl any longer and our spouse sees that they may indeed lose us. We become attractive again and/or they become the ones who want to continue the control THEY had over us for months, even years now. So they get close - or try to, to see if we are still "in love" and totally dependent on them.
But we pass the test; we have moved on. Their loss. Or if trying again is an option ....
In either case we continue to move on and forward, with
Yes frank, you see "signals" and so do I, to be honest. It is how we look at those signals. What do they really mean? Do they really mean anything?
Wish I knew. But I do not, so I look at the risk (as you say). And the odds look none too good for her having any second thoughts.
And even if she did - as they say "too little, too late". She is no longer right for me. Time to think of what is best for me and the kids here.
BTW, thanks for caring; I enjoyed this discussion. You and I have had heated exchanges. But real men rise above that sort of thing. Heated exchanges are needed for growth.
