Still hopeful for some pleasant surprises

[SteveInTN]

SPM,

Sounds like we went through similar circumstances to each arrive where we are today. While I did get my own place where I can house my four kids, she is staying in the big, expensive family home. I too feel that the only difference for her pre-sep and post-sep is the fact that I'm no longer there to crowd her. She hasn't had to endure not having the house, family, friends, and ammenities. Basically, I think she has had a cake walk.

I pay for all the bills but she must use the income from her 'job' to cover living expenses for herself and the kids when she has them. This is the ONLY pinch she has felt in the S so far, she doesn't have a bottomless pit to spend from. It makes the financial side tough in that I have to watch what I/we spend, but it was more than worth it in terms of giving me a breather from the stress brought on by her antics. Also, I've developed something of a separate life that helps me feel better about myself and where I am going.

Sounds to me like you need to start looking out for yourself a bit more. Having a place where you could KEEP the kids would be great and would give you a boost in the PMA department. A principle of DB'ing is if something is working, keep doing it, if it isn't, change things up. Do you see any movement on her part with the current arrangement? Doesn't sound like it to me.

Have you looked into cutting expenses around the current home in order to free up enough funds to get yourself an apartment? That is what I did in order to be able to afford my townhome. It can't go on too long as things are just too tight for comfort. We agreed that they could stay in the family home until the end of the school year. So, in Jan/Feb/March we will have to make a decision about what we are going to do and be ready to put that house on the market. It's just a house...

Think about all this... you really need to set yourself up in a situation where YOU can succeed in the things you want to accomplish. She needs to feel some discomfort from her decision and she needs to be able to see you as someone who is living life, someone attractive.

Steve

[Trixi]

Originally Posted By: Trixi
If she made a *choice* to remain married and work on creating a mutually satisfying marriage, then these financial issues wouldn't exist. Why should the savings be depleted?

Trixi, That is exactly the realization I am hoping she will have, though I don't know if I want to say the words to her. It's better if she figures that out herself.

How will she come to that realization if you are staying in someone's room and paying the bills and depleting your savings? In my opinion, I am glad if something is "painful" for her. This shouldn't be easy or pleasant. Is it easy or pleasant to have this thrust upon you? Are you trying to protect her from her own choices? That doesn't do anything for anyone. Do you see her as so weak that she can't handle the ramifications of her decisions and that you're so strong you can handle it for the both of you? If that is how you feel, then there is some other dynamic going on in the relationship that you might want to look at. (ie, parent/child dynamic.)
I hope I haven't been too harsh or accidentally insulted you. And I am by no means a pro-DB'er-so take what you can use and toss the rest.

[SirPrizeMe]

Trixi, Steve, thanks for the probing questions. I won't be insulted.

Am I trying to protect her from her choices? No, I don't think so. But I am not really excited about the idea of pushing a conflict. It is the tough love thing. I so much want her to do it on her own, to face the reality on her own. But she isn't, so I need to be more proactive.

You're right, my moving out was not pleasant at all for me. I regret that it is about to become not pleasant for her. I'm trying to not act rashly. I'm trying to be thoughtful and compassionate about it. Do I see her as weak? No! It's just that it's going to be unpleasant, and I don't wish that for her.

The problem I am having: she's accused me of being controlling and emotionally abusive in the marriage. Although I see I wasn't who she wanted me to be, I still don't see myself as abusive. In any case her accusations have had the effect of causing me to second-guess all my moves. So when it is quiet clear to me that we need to sell houses and drastically cut expenses, I hedge, because... that seems like a controlling act. Deep down I feel like it is just prudence and practicality. But the controlling thing is in my head.

Steve,

Think about all this... you really need to set yourself up in a situation where YOU can succeed in the things you want to accomplish. She needs to feel some discomfort from her decision and she needs to be able to see you as someone who is living life, someone attractive.

Exactly. That's where we are now. Her choices are forcing her to move, to get a job, to disrupt everyone. That's going to be uncomfortable. My biggest mistake is maybe that I have waited too long to get to this point. That I haven't pushed quickly enough to get to this stage. But we're here now.

I am really looking forward to having a home again, my own kitchen, my own bedroom, my own place.

[SirPrizeMe]

W and I are still in the middle of the exchange on how to share the expenses and income during the process of the divorce. So far the default plan is, I make all the income and she spends it all. Seriously. So I said, look, I need an apartment, which means we need to start sharing more equitably.

Yesterday she sent me a note full of worry that I would change my direct deposit, which would stop the mortgage payments, which would put us (her + kids) in trouble. She cautioned me against it strongly. I replied saying I had no intention of surprising her like that. But that we needed to get real with our finances. I proposed a plan to share housing expenses 50/50, and each of us would be individually responsible for personal expenses (haircuts, massages, manicures, clothes, dining out, etc). I asked her for her views on this plan.

Today she replied in email saying she is still "working out the numbers". with a "ps: the last manicure I got was from D5". I decided I could take that as a snotty, indignant reply, as if she was insulted by my suggestion that she might be getting manicures (or that spending money on a manicure was irresponsible). or... I could take it in fun. I decided to take it in fun. I replied back saying "oh yeah, I used to love those haircuts D5 gave me!" (She'd pretend, comb and cut and style my hair. I loved it.).

I don't know what it means that she is still working the numbers. Maybe she has to think about it. That seems positive. I'll wait. I'm cultivating patience in myself. Time is my ally.

We still have to figure out where we'll live; I had previously proposed that we get houses somewhere near each other so as to make school for the kids simpler. She liked that idea.

Called the house tonight a little late; W asked "are you calling to say goodnight to the kids?" We talked for a minute only, and only about the kids. 3 of the 4 kids were tucked in already. I talked with S12 a little, wished him a good night. Nothing more.

I'm going to read tonight.

I've been fantasizing about getting a guitar and some lessons for myself for Christmas (since I know no one else will get me a nice gift). Always wanted to learn to play.

[Baltoman]

Do you have a legal separation agreement that outlines that you are barred from the house? If not, it would seem to be illegal of her to change the locks and refuse to let you in. Although it may not be good DB'ing techniques, I would (assuming no legal agreement), announce that since you have no permanent place to stay and are depleting your savings that you will be moving back into the house on (pick a date not too far in the future). She is welcome to stay or to go but that you are no longer willing to be the one to sacrifice to help her accomplish a goal that you do not agree with. If she wants to be out on her own, she should know what it is like to truly be on your own. If she refuses to let you in, do not get angry but have a police officer accompany you to the house.

All this is assuming you can avoid being tagged with "desertion" for moving out in the first place. She is walking all over you and she will never reconcile with a man that does not show proper respect for himself by letting her do it. Don't get angry. Don't raise your voice. Do, however, be firm and strong.

Take this for what it is worth. I have not had great success as I am much better at relationship theory than I am at putting it into practice.

[SirPrizeMe]

We do not have a legal sep agreement.
I left the house because she was continuing to speak with OM, though she repeatedly promised she would stop.
I don't want to flip flop on this. I don't want to be back in the house if this continues.
If she wants OM, then I want my own place, and I'm pushing that.
It means we sell the house, she moves, kids all disrupted, etc.

On the surface, it seems that is the direction we are moving.

I get what you are saying about respect. I'll have to think about what you are saying. It sounds pretty provocative, which is not exactly what I want at this point.

[SirPrizeMe]

Some additional details on the circumstances under which I left the house...

Even after promising me she would stop, even after I calmly told her I would not accept the continued presence of OM in any way in our marriage, W continued to talk with OM and considered him her "friend". This guy has been into and out of alcohol rehab, and even after rehab has been arrested multiple times on DUI charges. (W told me in May 2007, "he's got it under control now." uh huh. right.) At the time they were "an item", alcohol was a major theme in their relationship. Every time they met, there was alcohol, even if it was in the morning. He'd drive 25 miles over from his house to mine, middle of the night, leaving his three young children, one of them under 2 yrs old. She allowed it. She knew there was an 18 month old baby alone with no parents, when he came to see her. She told me all this. Together the two of them broke up 2 families affecting 7 kids. Then the both of them blamed their LBS's. This is just bad behavior, bad parenting on both sides. Totally unacceptable to me.

I have zero tolerance for that behavior, and zero tolerance for her if she continues any relationship with him. Zero. If she wants a romantic relationship with that guy, or even if she wants to keep him as a "friend", she can have it, but I won't stay in that marriage. I told her exactly that before walking out the door, after she informed me that "he'll always be my friend."

That's where we are.

If she gets to the point where she can say "dang, I screwed up, I don't want him, I want you. I respect you as the father of my children, I respect your loyalty and good heart, I am thankful for what you have done for me, for the family for 14 years..." then I could go back.

ok, obviously that's dreaming. But if she could say, "dang, what a mess! I'm not sure I'm making the right decisions here. Maybe this marriage thing is worth another shot..." then I could go back.

But I will not go back while she continues to transfer her self-anger and shame to me, while she continues to blame me for the muck-pit she has gotten herself into.

[SirPrizeMe]

Having stated those as firm boundaries... I still want to reconcile. I am willing to recognize there are things I could have done better in our marriage, and I am very willing to work on them. I believe in forgiveness and redemption. I believe in marriage. I believe everyone is human, everyone makes mistakes. I've made lots of em, and still do, every day, and I am thankful for all the forbearance and forgiveness my friends and family and even strangers have given me. It's a beautiful thing.

Toward that end I am DBing.

• I am continuing with my life. I'm getting a condo (which will force her to move).
• I'm hanging with old friends and making new friends. I am spending time with my kids.
• I am cheerful everytime I interact with her, though it took me a while to get to that point.
• I am developing courage. In the past, I had allowed the things she was doing affect my mood. I acted in fear. When I moved out, I was distraught (no house, no place of my own, much less time with kids). When she announced she was filing papers, I was worried and afraid. When I got the papers, again, I was afraid. Darn it, I don't like what a divorce will do to the kids, and I'm afraid of that. But it does me no good to react to her. I am acting as if I am moving on now. I am acting as if I'll be ok (and I will be). Everything will not be "fine" but it will be ok, I guess, regardless what happens.

I prefer to stay together but I have no control over her. I can only take care of me.

[Trixi]

I have zero tolerance for that behavior, and zero tolerance for her if she continues any relationship with him. Zero. If she wants a romantic relationship with that guy, or even if she wants to keep him as a "friend", she can have it, but I won't stay in that marriage. I told her exactly that before walking out the doorafter she informed me that "he'll always be my friend."

I just don't understand why YOU walked out the door. OMG. Her OM left CHILDREN at home 25 miles away?? And she is choosing him over working on your marriage?! WHAT?
I think you might want to read Love Must be Tough by James Dobson.

(shaking head) I am just so shocked; and even more shocked that she is getting to stay in the house and spend your income while you spend savings.

I know you want to reconcile your marriage, I know you want have your family restored, I know you love her and believe in redemption and that people make mistakes. But don't REWARD bad behavior.

I guess you didn't really ask for any advice or opinion, but from my point of view, focus on yourself, protect you and your children and let your Wife suffer the consequences of HER choices. She can't give up this idiot as a friend in order to save her marriage?? what does that say about her priorities?
Gosh, I'm sorry for going off. I am just sooooo shocked that a parent would leave children at home alone at night to go and have an illicit affair. YUCK

[SirPrizeMe]

Trixi, I appreciate your input.

I don't really invite opinions on the details of the affair any longer. Shock and outrage is entirely appropriate but at this point no longer productive.

The leaving the baby alone thing - this was a long time ago. As far as I know the physical affair is no longer happening. The OM is still "in the picture" - I believe there is regular communication, but I do not believe there is an ongoing physical affair. He is 3 states away at this point. W is no longer drinking. (All 2007, while I was in the house, she drank a lot).

When I walked out the door I said - we have to sell this house. The next day she called and asked me to go to MC. I agreed not to force the sale of the house on that condition. We got off to a slow start - she delayed selecting a counselor, she delayed on choosing a date. Finally the day came. I reacted emotionally in the first session. She never went back. 2 weeks later she advised me she was filing for divorce. 2 weeks after that I received the papers. Now (1 week later) I am again telling her we need to sell the house. Again she is delaying.

I Feel you. You're outraged. so am I. And I'm saddened. But on the other hand I am trying to be not vindictive. I don't think this is easy for her at all. This is not a reward for her. It's ok for me if the consequences don't happen instantly, or all at once like an atom bomb. In some ways it is better to have them coming like a slow train, coming, coming coming. Gives her more time to think. But they are coming. The consequences are pretty clear and they are coming inexorably. My bad for taking so long in forcing the issue, but it is happening now.

Yes, she refuses to give up this guy as a friend to save her marriage, and I totally understand that, because to do so would be to admit how wrong she has been for so long. She has refused to grant me any respite. When I moved out she changed the house around just to stick her finger in my eye. As if that matters! For now she is demonizing me. Whatever. She may never be able to admit she has been wrong. I hope that is not the case.

In some small ways I see glimmers of hope. She invited me to a family dinner the other night. First time in 2 months we ate together. She pointed out that she hasn't had a drink in 2 weeks (I hadn't asked).

other things too.

I am trying to be patient. Cheerful. Lovingly firm.