A lot of the post sounded similar to my life (St. Bernard) and situation but BB not being focused on the kids as much. I am not as far along the GAL road as you or have a SSM where it has been years of no nookie. Months, yes.
FYI, lots of St Bernard’s spend too much time working and getting an education. Almost every guy I know that is D or has a troubled M, played his St Bernard too seriously.
WTG on the GAL and the professional engineer license. I need an experienced pocket protector so if you decide to sell your old one, put it on eBay and I will bid on it.
Your W suggested the counseling, why isn't she finding the counselor?
Good question. Hmm..., W tends to be pretty passive, about a lot of things. I tend to jump in quickly in fix-it mode. She told me that she didn't know where to start. I might just work with her to get the ball rolling and tell her to pick one out that she thinks she can work with.
There is always a distinct possibility that she is just stalling. Progress delayed is a stone wall by another name.
Or something like that. Thanks. Keep asking hard questions.
SM
"If we will be quiet and ready enough, we shall find compensation in every disappointment." Henry David Thoreau
FYI, lots of St Bernard’s spend too much time working and getting an education. Almost every guy I know that is D or has a troubled M, played his St Bernard too seriously.
Yeah, I think I have focussed on work and career the last 20 years out of a sense of professional insecurity. After having such a rocky start and getting laid off a couple of times, I've felt I had to overcompensate. Plus, knowing how important it was for W to be a stay-at-home mom, I thought that by focusing on being the bread winner I was meeting her needs. Maybe some, but not enough.
BTW, I'm really not a fan of the Marriage Builder's site. Exchanging needs inventories always seemed like a cold act of horse trading. "I'll do x, y, and Z if you'll have sex with me." How erotic.
It's so common to see someone give their spouse a questionnaire to fill out. Of course it rarely happens because the spouse doesn't want to see the one that you've filled out.
Actually the one thing that makes a lot of sense is eliminating Love Busters. And they have good advice for people dealing with affairs.
SM
"If we will be quiet and ready enough, we shall find compensation in every disappointment." Henry David Thoreau
I've done this in a couple of relationships, and finally I figured out that it was a bad thing and don't do it any more and put a stop to it when when the other person does it.
What I figured out was that this kind of humor (when there's a bit of truth to it) is like looking at this thing that the two of you have created-- this R-- and joking about whether you are going to feed it or let it die of neglect.
I was thinking about this. W and I both have very dark and twisted senses of humor. One of the things that we both truely love about each other is that we both feel free to be funny in front of each other, because sometimes it's not to make those kinds of jokes in other people's presence. A humorous exchange after our discussion last weekend:
W: You know, if you try to take the kids from me I'll have to kill you.
Me: Yeah, you'll probably poison. I'll have to have the kids taste the food for me.
Of course, there's a grain of truth. In the preceding convo, W made it clear how hard she would fight me for custody.
In the future, I might use these kinds of jokes to pick out the uncomfortable grain of truth and use the joke as a starting point for a more serious conversation.
Quote:
ETA: congrats on becoming an engineer! Do you get to blow the whistle when the train comes to the crossing-- that's got to be the COOLEST part!
I've been working as an engineer 10 years, but didn't get an engineering degree until my MS in 2003, then wasn't allow to take the test until 2007.
I don't get to blow the whistle. I do get to attend meetings.
SM
"If we will be quiet and ready enough, we shall find compensation in every disappointment." Henry David Thoreau
SM I'm really not a fan of the Marriage Builder's site. Exchanging needs inventories always seemed like a cold act of horse trading. "I'll do x, y, and Z if you'll have sex with me." How erotic.
SM, lots of couples don't even know what their SO's ENs are. Filling out the questionnaires is a starting place, not an alternative of/to some type to a legal/binding contract.
Actually the one thing that makes a lot of sense is eliminating Love Busters.(LB) True. The site has lots of posts about why ENs don't get met when there are love busters in the R.
I earn a living with my LB. Guess I could drop some income, get a new job, or retire completely.
SM, if your W doesn't like child care so you can go out on dates, how about shorter dates, maybe only to coffee or something similar.
BB has a semi-self-imposed 4 hour limit away from the house and our kids are not living at home. The dogs replaced the kids and they need to be let outside every 4 hours. BB is big on staying home and has some dislikes about being away for a longer time.
I almost insist we go out to Abby’s, Taco Bell, iHOP, Wal-Mart, etc, every other day and most of the time daily. The trips are short, but it gets BB out of the house. Often she will say "Just bring something home". I tell her no, we are going out and I want xyz straight off of the grill. Sometimes I say if I bring the food home, the fries or sandwiches will already be soggy. I also say I want to have ½ a rootbeer, ½ a Coke, ½ this, and ½ that, and mix it myself.
I am not a picky eater. I don't mind a little soggy fries/sandwich IRL. I play it up to the point I do, to get a desired result. I get BB out of the house.
You might have to do something similar. Use a different destination and activity that fits your situation.
(SM) She told me that she didn't know where to start. I might just work with her to get the ball rolling and tell her to pick one out that she thinks she can work with.
You mentioned in another post that she needs to take co-ownership of the problems in your M so in that vein, here's an additional suggestion.
Tell her you're not sure where to start either. Tell her the two of you need to determine what the purpose of your counseling should be. I don't think it's terribly effective to walk into a counselor's office and ask them to save your M. So ask your W to sit down with you and come up with an idea of what issues in your M you'd like a counselor to help with first. Is it communication, is it intimacy, is it fusion, etc. What you actually come up with is probably less important than that the two of you come up with *something*. Don't let her off the hook for helping you come up with something.
After you two decide, tell her you'll pick out a counselor and she'll pick out a counselor, you'll go to both then pick the one you like best or go to both if they both seem useful.
Working together to get the ball rolling seems helpful. You taking the lead on coming up with a plan and keeping her involved seems helpful. You doing the follow up on her suggestions seems potentially unhelpful.
Stop WaitingFeel EverythingLove AchinglyGive ImpeccablyLet Go
W would make the joking comment "Well, we could do it this way, but you better not divorce me." We've been using this type of gallows humor on each other for years,
I've done this in a couple of relationships, and finally I figured out that it was a bad thing and don't do it any more and put a stop to it when when the other person does it.
What I figured out was that this kind of humor (when there's a bit of truth to it) is like looking at this thing that the two of you have created-- this R-- and joking about whether you are going to feed it or let it die of neglect. I don't have any kids, but it seems to me almost as if there were a baby lying there and the H and W are saying, "Well we could feed her," and the other jokes, "Naw, let's just see how long she lives if we stop feeding her." "Well, we could save time and just drown her right now!" [laugh, laugh, laugh]
When I looked at it this way, I was horrified. The R is a living thing that the two people bring into being, and joking about whether you keep it alive or let it die-- yuck!!
Of course in a very solid, loving marriage, the occasional D joke is a different matter. But in a rocky M or one where D is a real possibility, this kind of joking is cruel and destructive IMHO.
I find myself doing that sort of teasing a lot more than before. It's a good way for me to say "If you left, I'd hate it, I'd miss you like crazy, but I won't fall apart and I won't grovel at your feet begging you to stay." She seems to like that.
a fine and enviable madness, this delusion that all questions have answers, and nothing is beyond the reach of a strong left arm.
It's been a really busy couple of weeks. Between business travel, buying a car, selling a car, having way too much work to do, and helping kids with midterms, I've hardly had a chance to breathe. I've been looking for opportunities to connect with W, and have had some success. We've been able to spend a little more time together up in our room before bed time just talking, and engaging in some sort of physical activity - massage or something like that. We've been more openly affectionate with each other, at both routine occasions, like leaving and coming home. And we have increased our levels of affection at less typical times, too. It's not sex, but it's connection, and it feels nice for a change.
One thing I have told her is that I was not going to hide my sexual self from her any more. That it might have given her the false impression that I was OK with the way our marriage had become. This came up when we were in the bedroom and W was giving me a foot massage. She offered to do it for me, and I can't remember her ever having done that for me before (she may have and I just don't remember). It felt quite nice, and she even said that I have nice looking feet! As a joke, I told her I was getting aroused, and she joked back, "I didn't know you were into that kind of thing." It's nice to have light conversations about this kind of thing. Anyway, we were talking afterwards and holding hands. It was a warm, intimate moment, and lo and behold, I started getting aroused. And I told her so. And at this point I told her that I wasn't going to hide my sexuality from her any more. This is who I am, and we need to deal with this reality. She didn't react to my statement one way or the other, but that's OK.
We started looking at marriage counselors a couple of weeks ago and came up with a short list the previous weekend. I asked her to call the one that she liked best, and set something up. I suppose I could call the counselor myself, but a) she was not my first choice, and b) I am looking for my wife to take some ownership over our problems. Well, W is quite introverted and hates making phone calls (she's been putting off calls she needs to make to straighten out old medical bills), so it didn't surprise me when she didn't set anything up last week. So I reminded her this evening. She said "Yeah, I know, don't nag me." That's bull, really. I hadn't said anything in over a week. If I let it slide, nothing would happen. I didn't point that out to her, because I would just be setting up a father/daughter dynamic that I want to avoid. I hate being relationship cop, too.
It's possible she doesn't understand yet that we are on the brink. Or she doesn't care. Or she's confused by my behavior. I don't act like I want to leave. I act like I love her, which I do. I guess it's hard for her to reconcile the seemingly contradictory ideas that I can both love her and leave her. I'm just not capable of following the "ILYBINILWY" script, or the adultery script, or the MLC script.
Anyway, we'll see how the marriage counseling thing goes this week. She says that she doesn't know what to say to the counselor. How about something like "I don't feel like I can make love with my husband, and I'm afraid he's going to leave me?" That would make a good start. Unless you are afraid to talk about sex.
SM
"If we will be quiet and ready enough, we shall find compensation in every disappointment." Henry David Thoreau
