Why can't you make the appointment yourself? If you want to see a counselor and your wife has agreed to go, then make the appointment. By putting the responsibility on your W, you're setting up a power struggle between the two of you, and actually putting yourself in the role of parent. IMO.
Usually one person in the R has to take the lead at first and you're it.
BTW, I totally understand your W not wanting to make phone calls because she is introverted. I am the same way. I was interested in seeing an individual counselor a couple of years ago and it took me about 6 months from when I got a referral from a friend to when I actually called for the appointment. And this was something *I* was interested in doing, not something my H wanted me to do.
(mrs.cac) By putting the responsibility on your W, you're setting up a power struggle between the two of you, and actually putting yourself in the role of parent. IMO.
I see it exactly the opposite. SM told her their M was failing and her response was to suggest counseling. Then she dropped the ball and wanted him to do all the work of setting it up. That doesn't ring true for someone who sees the problems in their M and is committed to working on them, that smacks of someone reaching for the pat answer to buy themselves time. "Yes honey, I agree that we have a lot of work to do. Why don't you get started doing it?"
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When we went to a marriage counselor last year, I took the initiative the whole way. I asked for the counseling, I identified and set up the appointment, I led the discussion. It felt to me like I was pushing the whole time. My wife's attitude was grudging, at best. She actually liked the counselor, mostly because she focussed completely on talk, and was not interested in setting goals. My wife is very averse to sexual matters, so an approach where we can talk about our relationship without talking about our sexual relationship, or without changing our behavior outside the counselor's office, suites my wife just fine.
Something W said to me this time is telling. She doesn't know what to say to the counselor. When it comes time for me to talk to the counselor, I know what I want to accomplish and what I am looking to get out of the process. This time around, I want her to think deeply about what she wants out of counseling. What problems does she have with how I behave toward her? Does she have deep wounds that need to heal before we can move forward? What are her feelings about sex in general? About sex with me? None of these are my questions. They are her questions, and she needs to own them. You have described the process that you went through in discovering your own sexuality. My wife will need to go through the same kind of process. If she is not interested in formulating the problem from her own POV, won't the process be one-sided on my part?
I am dubious about the value of marriage counseling. Of course I want change, but I am also ready to accept things as they are. My wife is the one who said she does not want a divorce. She can back that up with action. She is naturally inclined to think that if we don't talk about it, the problem will go away, just as it always has before. I won't let that happen again. I am open to seeing if she is reaady for change. But with as much as I've done to make things better for us, to become a better and more functional person, I really think it's her turn to pick up the rope.
FWIW, I think she is more willing to act this time than last time (or I could be deluded). This morning she apologized to me for snapping at me when I brought up couseling. Last year, I did plenty of leading and just didn't see much following on her part. I don't want to push. I am trying to pull, gently. If she drops the rope, I want to see why, and get her to look at the obstructions, and reach a consensus on how we can break through together.
Thanks for your input.
SM
"If we will be quiet and ready enough, we shall find compensation in every disappointment." Henry David Thoreau
SM, I get that you want her to make the call, but isn't the important thing right now just to get you two to counseling? You're choosing the C she wants-- maybe that's enough for now?
I do definitely see your point, but you are making this into a test for her. Is that what you really want to do from the outset? Don't you want to change the adversarial stance?
Counseling can certainly be valuable in some situations, maybe in many situations, but it's by no means a magic bullet. It's funny to me how people put it off and put it off (not referring to you BTW) as though it were the most drastic, dangerous thing they could do... like appealing directly to the Pope or the Wizard of Oz or something. The Court of Last Resort. The phone call to the Governor to stop the execution. And yet they call in plumbers when they need help, they go to someone to cut their hair, groom their dog, teach them to play tennis, or paint their house.
A counselor is a professional who may have some tools to help you solve your problem. Nothing more, nothing less. A good counselor is an artist... like a good orchestra conductor, or a good coach or teacher. A bad one is bad and can ruin people on the process forever.
A counselor is not going to humiliate you or scold you or shame you, which, I think, are some of the reasons people avoid going. Counseling/therapy can certainly fail if the C doesn't lead you to face your issues or if the client doesn't want to work.
I don't know why the extreme aversion... counseling is usually the first thing I think of, not the last.
I didn't recall the backstory of your sitch, but after reading your post, I understand what you're saying.
But what Lil wrote is what I was thinking but didn't articulate:
Quote:
SM, I get that you want her to make the call, but isn't the important thing right now just to get you two to counseling? You're choosing the C she wants-- maybe that's enough for now?
I do definitely see your point, but you are making this into a test for her. Is that what you really want to do from the outset? Don't you want to change the adversarial stance?
Even though it would great/right/fair if she would step up to the plate, I don't see what you have to gain by trying to nag/push her to do so. She'll likely only dig in her heels and be even more resistant. It is a power struggle.
In your post, you said you weren't sure that counseling would help. Yet you're trying to get her to make an appointment. You can't make her step up to the plate, and I completely get the frustration that goes along with that, having been in your shoes myself.
So, I say, never mind testing her. If you want to go, make the appointment. If you don't want to go then don't. You're prepared to accept things as they are. So do that. And when you wife starts making noise about counseling just tell her to let you know when and where and you'll be there. And leave it at that.
SM, I get that you want her to make the call, but isn't the important thing right now just to get you two to counseling? You're choosing the C she wants-- maybe that's enough for now?
I do definitely see your point, but you are making this into a test for her. Is that what you really want to do from the outset? Don't you want to change the adversarial stance?
Actually, I don't think going to a counselor is the most important thing. What I'm doing looks like a test - I suppose it is. My wife has told me before that she wants to make things work. But in terms of action, I've met with a lot of stone walling. So, I guess when she says that she wants to make things work, I don't believe her. Not until I see some concrete action.
I've seen small things. Mostly that she has been more responsive to me, to my approaches at affection. Contacting a counselor is a whole different thing. W is a very anxious person. She is likely to complain about how something is "outside her comfort zone," and so rather than having learned how to hold onto herself and act in the face of her fears, she just pulls away. Her comfort zone has become the size of a postage stamp.
She tells me she will contact the counselor, and I'm going to give her a chance to do it. I used to rescue her every time she got stuck, but I think she will be able to unstick herself.
Quote:
Counseling can certainly be valuable in some situations, maybe in many situations, but it's by no means a magic bullet. It's funny to me how people put it off and put it off (not referring to you BTW) as though it were the most drastic, dangerous thing they could do...
A counselor is a professional who may have some tools to help you solve your problem. Nothing more, nothing less. A good counselor is an artist...
A counselor is not going to humiliate you or scold you or shame you...
I don't know why the extreme aversion... counseling is usually the first thing I think of, not the last.
End of soapbox. :rolleyes:
I think the aversion my wife has to counseling is that she is ashamed about her problems. She tends to think of these things as basic flaws, and that she is damaged. She would rather cover up or hide her - or our - problems than face them. She has also told me on many occasions that people can't change. From that standpoint, counseling is a waste of time if your goal is to change.
SM
"If we will be quiet and ready enough, we shall find compensation in every disappointment." Henry David Thoreau
I hear ya, SM. I get that you making the call seems like "rescuing," but OTOH YOU'RE the one who wants her to do this. If person A wants person B to do something, I'm not sure person A rushing in to do it is rescuing. Rescuing is when person B won't do his or her own work and person A rushes in to do person B's work for them, kwim?
I think the aversion my wife has to counseling is that she is ashamed about her problems. She tends to think of these things as basic flaws, and that she is damaged. She would rather cover up or hide her - or our - problems than face them. She has also told me on many occasions that people can't change. From that standpoint, counseling is a waste of time if your goal is to change.
I'm sure you realize that she is a classic avoider. And to channel Cobra, the root of that is a shame-based upbringing. I believe that the root of her fear is that counseling will confirm what she always has believed to be true -- that she is flawed, damaged, unloveable. She is terribly afraid of emotional intimacy because if she reveals herself to you, she fears that you will confirm to her what she has always believed to be true about herself. It's a tough nut to crack.
I would guess that when you went to counseling before she talked only about those topics that didn't feel threatening to her. Actually I'm curious to know what kinds of things she did talk about.
The fact that she suggests counseling at all makes me wonder if some part of her wants to get to the bottom of it. I think the other spouses on here who are avoidant types tend to want nothing to do with counseling.
I know that it's not your job to psychoanalyze her. But I've found through my experience that it helps me if I have some understanding of the root of the behavior. Then again, unlike the you and the rest, I'm not sex-starved.
(Lil) ...OTOH YOU'RE the one who wants her to do this.
SM told his W their M is in serious trouble. Her response was that they should get counseling. SHE'S the one who wants to do this. HE wants more sex, not more counseling.
Rescuing is when person B won't do his or her own work and person A rushes in to do person B's work for them, kwim?
That's exactly the situation SM finds himself in. He's doing well by not rescuing.
I don't understand how merely "suggesting counseling" is her work and setting it up is SM's work. It's not.
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