Engagement

[fearless]

Fearless: Would it be okay with you if she stayed introverted and uncomfortable with phone calls IF she took on the responsibility of understanding her sexuality? Would it be okay if she called and scheduled the appointment but still was unable to figure out her issues with sex?

Solid Mechanic: I'm talking about seeing her show some active sign that my needs matter to her. That it is important to her that we make our marriage a success. One little phone call.

To be clear: The little PHONE CALL is the most important thing to you right now???

It's possible that she's confused about that because I know I am a bit. I thought figuring her sexuality out would be the most important thing.

I'm really not trying to be hard on you because I don't think you've taken this lightly and I know you have thought a lot about this. I'm just trying to give an outsider's POV and at least to me I would not understand that the phone call was every bit if not MORE important to you than the sexual issues so I just wonder if your wife knows this.

I'm talking about seeing her show some active sign that my needs matter to her.

And thinking a bit more about this. Didn't you say your wife was a bit flirtatious with you and rubbing your feet? Didn't she act "better" when you talked about being aroused? Didn't she apologize for being testy toward you?

I just wonder if those are active signs too that MIGHT be being ignored because now you are focused on the "one little phone call" as THE sign that making your marriage a success is important to her. She MIGHT be thinking that she is focusing her energy on the "right" problem and it would turn out that the phone call is the bigger issue.

Just wondering...

[Lillieperl]

Okay, I see your point. I misunderstood YOU.

[SolidMechanic]

SM, do you think she wants to work on the marriage? Maybe when you said you wanted things to improve, she suggested counseling because her experience with it before told her that a) it was pretty easy and she didn't have to confront anything she didn't want to, b) it didn't really make any difference in your marriage. [speculating now] IOW she didn't have to move outside her comfort zone. So she suggested counseling not because she thought it would help but just to get you off her back.

That's a pretty dark speculation, and I try not to succumb to that kind of negative suspicious thinking. I am trying to extend an assumption of good will to her. I am also trying to depersonalize the issues somewhat. I don't believe our nonexistent sex life is something she is doing to hurt me intentionally.

SM, I feel you're taking adversarial stance with me. Is that my imagination? I'm on your side. (I know, I know, there are no "sides"-- but I'm on yours anyway.)

Thanks, Lil, I know you are on my side. And my wife's side, too.

This is why I think "everything is great except the sex" cannot be true (unless both people aren't interested in sex). If one party is seriously dissatisfied and the other party acts like it doesn't matter one bit, THAT is a significant barrier to intimacy, friendship, love, trust, etc.

One thing that is disconcerting to me is that counselors tend to act on the assumption that sexual desire will reappear when all other relationship issues are dealt with. I think it is possible to do everything right and still come up empty in the bedroom.

SM

[Lillieperl]

that counselors tend to act on the assumption that sexual desire will reappear when all other relationship issues are dealt with

This is so true. We encountered this again and again.



My comment about her just getting you off her back comes from a time when I was still initiating with bf (about 3 years ago). I was looking forward to some action later in the evening and we were going out to dinner. He allowed as how we'd get to the bedroom after dinner. When we came home, he wasn't interested. I said, "What about what you said before dinner?" He said (I kid you not): "I had to say something to get you off my back." (Why oh why did I stay with this man for five and a half years?)

Is it any wonder I draw dark conclusions?

[SolidMechanic]

To be clear: The little PHONE CALL is the most important thing to you right now???

If she wants to go to a counselor, she should contact a counselor. What does it mean when someone says they want to do something, but then they don't actually do it?

Calling a counselor is not that big, in my mind. It is a single step. "A journey of 1000 miles begins with a single step." It is a step she said she wanted to take. I don't think it is asking too much to actually look to her to take that step herself. I'm not going to try to fix our problems by myself anymore. I don't think it's healthy for our marriage for me to be the only one holding the rope. We are both responsible for this mess and we both need to take action to fix it. So far, it has been 99% me.

It's possible that she's confused about that because I know I am a bit. I thought figuring her sexuality out would be the most important thing.

I don't know, is it? A counselor might say that first we need to learn how to communicate. Maybe my wife needs to learn how to forgive me for past sins, before she can open up to me sexually. All of these things are fundamentally for her to figure out. If I do everything to set up counseling, won't she get the feeling that I'm trying to change her? Or that I'm trying to fix her? Because I'm not. She is who she is. She may be able to change, but she needs to find the resources necessary to do so.

I'm really not trying to be hard on you

OK, thanks for telling me because you are doing a pretty good imitation of someone who is trying to be hard on somebody else. [;*}

I'm just trying to give an outsider's POV and at least to me I would not understand that the phone call was every bit if not MORE important to you than the sexual issues so I just wonder if your wife knows this.

OK, here is an insider's view point. We have had no sex in 10 years. Which is easier, having sex after not having any in 10 years, or making a phone call? She made a phone call just last week, so I think that is easier. It seems like we are so far from having a sex life, that it is not even on the horizon. Frankly, after so many years, I will be surprised if we ever have sex again. So you see, right now, I making a phone call to set up a counselor as a small, achievable milestone, and having sex with my wife as science fiction.

Didn't you say your wife was a bit flirtatious with you and rubbing your feet? Didn't she act "better" when you talked about being aroused? Didn't she apologize for being testy toward you?

Absolutely! The increase in physical responsiveness and emotional intimacy is a vast improvement and a great sign. I don't know how The Phone Call took on such great importance in this forum. Personally, I think counseling is secondary. We are taking small, concrete steps to improve our relationship without having to talk about it.

I just wonder if those are active signs too that MIGHT be being ignored because now you are focused on the "one little phone call" as THE sign that making your marriage a success is important to her. She MIGHT be thinking that she is focusing her energy on the "right" problem and it would turn out that the phone call is the bigger issue.

Just wondering...

I am not ignoring these steps at all. But almost all of the steps were initiated by me. She has gone from stonewalling me to being a good follower. Although it's progress, it's still not the actions of someone who wants to save her marriage.

And I'm not focussed on the "one little phone call." That's what everyone else seems to be most focussed on. I asked her about it twice in two weeks. FWIW, she can email the counselor.

SM

[LustForLife]

It's possible she doesn't understand yet that we are on the brink. Or she doesn't care. Or she's confused by my behavior. I don't act like I want to leave. I act like I love her, which I do. I guess it's hard for her to reconcile the seemingly contradictory ideas that I can both love her and leave her. I'm just not capable of following the "ILYBINILWY" script, or the adultery script, or the MLC script.

Well, what script are you following? I'm serious. I don't blame your W for feeling confused. You have not had sex in 10 years yet now you mean business? I would place big money on the fact that she doesn't believe you are serious. And until she does, I doubt you will see much change. You can't have it both ways. There is no "nice" way to do this. You just have to get brutally honest. If you "don't act like you want to leave", are you being honest with yourself? or her?

LFL

[Lillieperl]

What LFL said. How does your W know that this issue is any more important to you now than it was 8-5-3 years ago? How does it look different to her.

What does it mean when someone says they want to do something, but then they don't actually do it?

It means they don't want to.

[fearless]

OK, thanks for telling me because you are doing a pretty good imitation of someone who is trying to be hard on somebody else.

I've meant to ask you questions to help you figure things out. I know I don't have the answers. I just am kind of writing out my thoughts and hoping it might trigger some different thoughts from you. While I don't mean to be difficult, I know I am asking difficult questions.

So you see, right now, I making a phone call to set up a counselor as a small, achievable milestone, and having sex with my wife as science fiction.

But this is the question I have been asking. Does she know that the counselor appointment is THE step you are looking for versus the sex issues? I think you've made it clear to her that you have a problem with not having had sex. However I could understand that she MIGHT not connect that with getting to a counselor (even if she did say she would look into counseling). Maybe she does think she could sort it out herself??

Calling a counselor is not that big, in my mind.

I don't think it is asking too much to actually look to her to take that step herself.

Which is easier, having sex after not having any in 10 years, or making a phone call?

Although it's progress, it's still not the actions of someone who wants to save her marriage.

All of these are understandable feelings and comments.

Just out of curiosity, how relieved would you be if she just simply ignores the counseling and your requests so you can just go through with the divorce feeling like you gave her a chance and she didn't take advantage of the chance?

What does it mean when someone says they want to do something, but then they don't actually do it?

I completely understand those that say it is a clear sign that someone doesn't want to do it. Especially if the person is the type that seems to have a problem with ever saying no.

However I happen to be a woman that may say I want to do something, really do want to do it (if I don't want to do something, I have no trouble saying no) but don't immediately do it IF I'm feeling overwhelmed, tired, afraid, unsure, etc. By no means is this an excuse. It simply is what it is with me. (Feel sorry for Raven!!)

[Kettricken]

However I happen to be a woman that may say I want to do something, really do want to do it (if I don't want to do something, I have no trouble saying no) but don't immediately do it IF I'm feeling overwhelmed, tired, afraid, unsure, etc. By no means is this an excuse. It simply is what it is with me. (Feel sorry for Raven!!)

I tend to be this way too. Sometimes it's more a matter of "I want to intellectually, but other pressures and fears are also making me NOT want to emotionally." That's a fight that can go several rounds before it resolves one way or the other. That said, it's a fight that should resolve inside her, and I don't think "rescuing" her, *especially* prematurely, is going to be much help.

If she can email the counselor, the whole "phone call" thing is a red herring, unless she also has a passionate discomfort with email.....

And let me say I applauded your thoughts on "unsolicited rescuing as paternalism".

[SolidMechanic]

Well, what script are you following? I'm serious. I don't blame your W for feeling confused. You have not had sex in 10 years yet now you mean business? I would place big money on the fact that she doesn't believe you are serious. And until she does, I doubt you will see much change. You can't have it both ways. There is no "nice" way to do this. You just have to get brutally honest. If you "don't act like you want to leave", are you being honest with yourself? or her?

LFL

What do I need to do to prove that I am serious? I told her that I was thinking of getting a divorce. I also told her that I still love her. Those are both true. There is no threat there, even if it is implied. If she told me that there was nothing she could do then I would be filing now. The only way I know how to be more serious is to get a divorce. And if I do, I won't be doing it to manipulate her behavior.

If my wife genuinely wants to make things work, I don't want to constantly hold the Sword of Damocles over her head. I could say, "We better have sex by mm/dd/2008 or I'm out of here!" Is that conducive to rekindling a sex life? Has that worked for anyone?

SM