Engagement

[mrsc]

Burg,

When I was venting on here last year about how I felt that I was doing all the work and cac wasn't stepping up to the plate, EVEN though he was the one who had come here first to complain about our SL, several posters asked me if I wanted to be right or if I wanted to work on the marriage. I wanted to try to fix the marriage.

So, I'm going to duck and ask the same question of SM. (I'm ducking because I feel like I'm being confrontational and that makes me uncomfortable.)

[fearless]

I absolutely understand the idea of giving your wife the responsibility for accepting the issues of the marriage and following through with the counseling to show her willingness to solve the problem. However I think mrscac4 and Lillie make good points that IF she also has to overcome another issue of hers (introversion) aren't you just setting her up for failure? Or at least setting it up so she has to use a lot of energy getting over this particular issue and so this issue is additional to the sexual issues instead of keeping YOUR issue with the marriage clear.

I say this as someone that does not understand the phone aversion issue at ALL. My XH did not like to get on the phone or talk to strangers and he was not an introvert. Anyway, I think of it as if someone took my issue (fear of heights) and told me I needed to walk across a narrow suspension bridge over a 500' canyon before going to marriage counseling in order to PROVE that I wanted to fix my marital issues. I have to say that as much as I would have wanted to solve our marital issues, I am not sure I could have simply overcome the fear of heights that easily or quickly. And not overcoming that fear would NOT have meant that I didn't want to fix my problems.

You wrote:

This time around, I want her to think deeply about what she wants out of counseling. What problems does she have with how I behave toward her? Does she have deep wounds that need to heal before we can move forward? What are her feelings about sex in general? About sex with me? None of these are my questions. They are her questions, and she needs to own them.

You have laid out a pretty hefty list of things your wife needs to do. And on top of that you also want her to confront another issue with phone calls/introversion. I guess I would have to ask you which is the larger problem in your marriage – your wife's introversion or her issues with sex? Would it be okay with you if she stayed introverted and uncomfortable with phone calls IF she took on the responsibility of understanding her sexuality? Would it be okay if she called and scheduled the appointment but still was unable to figure out her issues with sex? To me, that is how I would decide what was critical in this process.

[Lillieperl]

I agree that in SM's situation the concept of "rescuing" does not apply.

She only suggested counseling. I'm not sure she wants to work on the marriage.

[Burgbud]

(fearless) You have laid out a pretty hefty list of things your wife needs to do. And on top of that you also want her to confront another issue with phone calls/introversion. I guess I would have to ask you which is the larger problem in your marriage – your wife's introversion or her issues with sex? Would it be okay with you if she stayed introverted and uncomfortable with phone calls IF she took on the responsibility of understanding her sexuality? Would it be okay if she called and scheduled the appointment but still was unable to figure out her issues with sex? To me, that is how I would decide what was critical in this process.

I know we always tend to overanalysis 'round these parts, but we're talking about a grown adult making a telephone call. SM hasn't indicated she's actually phobic so I don't think her using the phone is analagous to an acrophobic walking across a 500' high bridge.

I don't particularly care for using the phone myself. But c'mon. This is excuse making at its finest.

[SolidMechanic]

I hear ya, SM. I get that you making the call seems like "rescuing," but OTOH YOU'RE the one who wants her to do this. If person A wants person B to do something, I'm not sure person A rushing in to do it is rescuing. Rescuing is when person B won't do his or her own work and person A rushes in to do person B's work for them, kwim?

You're assuming that my wife does not want counseling. Maybe she does, maybe she doesn't. You are also assuming that I do want counseling. While I am quite open to the process, I also know it is not a panacea. She said she would make the call, and I'm going to give her the space and time to do it. She hasn't said to me, "I just can't muster the nerve to call. You'll have to do it." For me to call at this point when W said she would take care of it, is, IMO, rescuing behavior.

To rescue someone who doesn't ask for it and may not need it, I think, is the height of paternalistic behavior.

SM

[SolidMechanic]

I'm sure you realize that she is a classic avoider. And to channel Cobra, the root of that is a shame-based upbringing. I believe that the root of her fear is that counseling will confirm what she always has believed to be true -- that she is flawed, damaged, unloveable. She is terribly afraid of emotional intimacy because if she reveals herself to you, she fears that you will confirm to her what she has always believed to be true about herself. It's a tough nut to crack.

Yes, I think this is right. Her mom was very straight laced and kept a firm lid on any kind of sexual activity or conversation in their house. There are a lot of other indicators of this I don't have time to go into right now.

I would guess that when you went to counseling before she talked only about those topics that didn't feel threatening to her. Actually I'm curious to know what kinds of things she did talk about.

Yeah, me to. After a few sessions, the counselor separated us so she could talk to each of us separately. W told me she mostly ended up talking about her mother. I'm afraid that I didn't have much patience for this, and I know I need to be more patient about it this time. I felt frustrated, though, that my needs weren't being addressed. It was pretty wrong headed on my part.

The fact that she suggests counseling at all makes me wonder if some part of her wants to get to the bottom of it. I think the other spouses on here who are avoidant types tend to want nothing to do with counseling.

I really don't know. The skeptic in me is thinking that she suggested counseling to placate me. I hope we can both be open and patient with the process.

SM

[SolidMechanic]

(Lil) ...OTOH YOU'RE the one who wants her to do this.

SM told his W their M is in serious trouble. Her response was that they should get counseling. SHE'S the one who wants to do this. HE wants more sex, not more counseling.

Well put.

Rescuing is when person B won't do his or her own work and person A rushes in to do person B's work for them, kwim?

That's exactly the situation SM finds himself in. He's doing well by not rescuing.

I don't understand how merely "suggesting counseling" is her work and setting it up is SM's work. It's not.

Ironically, it was the counselor that we saw last year who first pointed out my tendency to rescue my wife.

SM

[SolidMechanic]

...However I think mrscac4 and Lillie make good points that IF she also has to overcome another issue of hers (introversion) aren't you just setting her up for failure? Or at least setting it up so she has to use a lot of energy getting over this particular issue and so this issue is additional to the sexual issues instead of keeping YOUR issue with the marriage clear.

I may be wrong about this, but I think she needs to be able to handle her fears if we are going to deal with our marital issues successfully. That's just a theory. And she does use the phone. I would not classify it as a phobia.

You wrote:

This time around, I want her to think deeply about what she wants out of counseling. What problems does she have with how I behave toward her? Does she have deep wounds that need to heal before we can move forward? What are her feelings about sex in general? About sex with me? None of these are my questions. They are her questions, and she needs to own them.

You have laid out a pretty hefty list of things your wife needs to do. And on top of that you also want her to confront another issue with phone calls/introversion. I guess I would have to ask you which is the larger problem in your marriage – your wife's introversion or her issues with sex? Would it be okay with you if she stayed introverted and uncomfortable with phone calls IF she took on the responsibility of understanding her sexuality? Would it be okay if she called and scheduled the appointment but still was unable to figure out her issues with sex? To me, that is how I would decide what was critical in this process.

That was a long list. I didn't mean to imply that I want her to fix these things. I don't know what issues she'll need to work on before she can meet my needs in our marriage. I haven't brought up most of that stuff with her. I'm pretty sure W will have to come to some level of self understanding, but even that is a presumption. Maybe a therapist can convince her to "just do it", and "act as if", but she has told me in the past that she can't "just do it." What ever the issues are, she needs to own those that are hers.

One of my issues is that I want to see desire. I'm not even talking about sexual desire. I'm talking about seeing her show some active sign that my needs matter to her. That it is important to her that we make our marriage a success. One little phone call.

SM

[Lillieperl]

Sm & Burgbud-- I think you both misunderstood me. I'm saying that SM making the call is NOT rescuing Mrs. SM. I think he could make the call himself or wait for her.

SM, do you think she wants to work on the marriage? Maybe when you said you wanted things to improve, she suggested counseling because her experience with it before told her that a) it was pretty easy and she didn't have to confront anything she didn't want to, b) it didn't really make any difference in your marriage. [speculating now] IOW she didn't have to move outside her comfort zone. So she suggested counseling not because she thought it would help but just to get you off her back.


ETA: I didn't mention the phone call thing as a legitimate way of excusing her from making the call. I just idly mentioned it... of course, I'm perfectly capable of using the phone.

SM, I feel you're taking adversarial stance with me. Is that my imagination? I'm on your side. (I know, I know, there are no "sides"-- but I'm on yours anyway.)


ETA again: You want her to show that your needs matter to her. Amen. Very important.

This is why I think "everything is great except the sex" cannot be true (unless both people aren't interested in sex). If one party is seriously dissatisfied and the other party acts like it doesn't matter one bit, THAT is a significant barrier to intimacy, friendship, love, trust, etc.

[Burgbud]

(Lil) I'm saying that SM making the call is NOT rescuing Mrs. SM.

We disagree about that. I believe him making the call IS rescuing her.

I agree with what SM said earlier...if she came to him and said, "Honey, I really want to call the counselor and get us started on the road to repairing our marriage but I get so anxious and I just can't bring myself to do it", then maybe. As of now, though, she's said she'll make the call. For him to take over would be rescuing and enabling her to be passive-aggressive, whether she's actually being P/A or not.

Maybe she doesn't actually want to work on the marriage and that's why she doesn't call. If that's the case, him calling for her isn't going to accomplish anything.