PMA = Me

[lodo]

Hi login,

Thanks for stopping by. Unfortunately, she moved out yesterday, although it was a pretty rough back and forth of her trying to decide to do it or not. OM came up a lot. I didn't ask a lot of questions, just said that as long as she was devoting her emotional energy towards him, nothing could be fixed in our marriage. That was my consistent message, anyway. But you're right - I won't bring him up again.

She ended up saying she needed to talk to a professional - she didn't know what was wrong with her, why she had such a problem feeling trapped in the house with me and why she treated me so badly. She said she wanted to go see C a couple times before talking again. I said that was fine - we had known each other a long time and I wasn't going to give up on our marriage. I wanted her to take her space.

So, I'm still feeling pretty crappy and out of it right now, but I recognize that I'm finally ready to kick my GAL into high gear. I'm okay with her leaving and next time I won't let her come back until I know she's really committed to making our R work.

This is going to take a long time ...

lodo

[LoginName]

Lodo,
Sorry to hear it. I think the separation can give you the space you need to be strong though too. Reading your posts, it seems like you've kind of been pushing her out for a while (not out of the M, just out of the house). Maybe - although it hurt like hell - it was easier on me that my W left town with the OM. If you've read enough of Grasshopper's posts, you know he lived with his W while she was dating OM. Tough. Not for everyone, but probably something to be learned there.

Here's a thought for you. This is really tough on your W. You may be hurting too much right now to care, but this is really hard on her. To me, it helps to realize that she is hurting too. It helps me feel a little compassion, which makes it easier to love unconditionally, and oddly enough, to let go some.

The OM is a problem, but only a symptom. Listen to what she is saying - she doesn't know what's wrong with her, she doesn't know why she feels trapped. So she feels trapped. That's an issue. Not the OM. She feels something is wrong with her. That's an issue.

Yes, kick in the GAL, detach like mad, let go of what you can't control, work on PMA, and don't give up.

I'm still catching up with your sitch, but it sounds very hopefull right now.

I remember telling my W that she had enough stress with the PhD and that I would not bring up R stuff until later. Of course, I was only partially successful. But you asked me if my W's PhD had an affect and I think it did. She was under lots of stress. She felt trapped. She felt scared that it would be over. What do you do after all that work? I don't really understand this part, the PhD stress part. I'll do some research and see what,if anything, I can find out. Our MC has a PhD, so he kind of understood. He didn't talk about that stress in our sessions though.

Final thought for now: don't initiate conversations, listen hard (in other words, take youself and your pain out of it, just listen to what she is saying) when she does talk, give your opinion if asked but don't volunteer it, settle down for a long roller coaster ride. Oh, and stop telling her what she needs or feels - i.e. don't tell her she would be happier moving out, or even that she needs to end it with OM before anything can happen. Let her figure things out for herself. You telling her will just make her defensive and stubborn.

Good luck lodo.

OK, I'm still talkative. I guess the coffee is working. Reading your sitch is bringing back some of the feelings I had early on in my sitch. I can't believe how much of the pain I've already forgotten. You will too. I empathise with you, lodo, I know how much it hurts. But you can do this, you ARE Doing this, and you will succeed.

[lodo]

Hi login,

Thanks - you've said some really helpful stuff. I know it sounds like I've been pushing her out. I think it wasn't quite like that but maybe I'm wrong.

Before she left, W and I did talk about how much pain she is in. We didn't talk about it much, but I acknowledged it. I still don't think I've fully accepted it, but I think you're right - discussing that with her is helping me to let go right now.

You're right - she keeps giving me the answers but I don't fully understand them. She is very independent and I think that, combined with her PhD work, is making her feel trapped. She doesn't want to deal with the realities of living with another person right now. Had I been more supportive of her when this all started, that may have been different, but as it turned out, our failing M was an energy suck and now that's all she can see.

I don't know what happens after the PhD stress. I keep feeling like she's going to crash at some point and that's when she'll realize what it means to be alone and in the process of losing everything we had. But right now she's partitioned it away.

Yes, I need to stop talking so much and telling her what to do. I didn't intend that, but with her being back in the house I lost a lot of my DR techniques. Need to regain those.

Thanks for the suggestions and support! lodo

[LoginName]

lodo,
Can you affort DB coach? I think they really help, or can.

[lodo]

I can. Have been wondering whether they would be helpful or not. Have you ever talked with them?

[LoginName]

I did talk with them. It was very helpful right at first. It confirmed what I was doing was right and gave me some good advice. I had a male counselor. For my last session, because I was in a hurry and because I thought it might help, I asked for a female C. She was even better. They give good advice, very detailed, as to what you should do and say, what words to use, etc.

I would recommend them. Although, I got tons of help on these boards. I hope to heaven that I can repay Grasshopper and ToughLover by passing on some good advice to others.

In trying to think of what to say to you, I put myself back in that spot, wife with OM, not knowing what will happen, feeling rejected, out of control, scared - and it's scary. I'm proof that you can survive, over come, grow, find strength, and even restore your M.

Good luck.

[Starshyne]

The DB coach has helped me as well....if anything gave me confidence in what I have been doing.

*edited because I typed couch instead of coach..oops!

[lodo]

First off, let me say that I'm pretty much an impostor by posting in piecing when it was way to early for me to be here and now I'm not even piecing. But I think I'm going to stay until my thread locks because ... well, just because.

But I've been thinking about what login wrote and realizing that what I post isn't necessarily the way things happen, and it is certainly telling to see what I've focused on.

For instance, during the process of moving out, W mentioned many things. She asked what I needed from a relationship; what I would do to start building a new relationship between us; what I wanted for myself in the future. I didn't have firm answers for these - told her that the first two were things we needed to work out together.

then she said I was a wonderful person and she was impressed by the things I was accomplishing.

So there are a lot of positives that I'm not concentrating on. Those, combined with her actions and with her admission of pain should let me know that she is really conflicted. But she admits to concentrating on the past negatives rather than being open to future positives in the R. And she thinks this is because she is no longer attracted to me, even though we can sit and have long conversations and reach out to each other in comfort and cry on each other's shoulder. She needs time to end it with OM, plain and simple. She can't split her emotions between two people and right now her emotions are with him, not me.

But I would certainly benefit from not wearing my heart on my sleeve, being less forthcoming with my thoughts and opinions when talking with her, and moving on with my own life.

Just ranting a bit. Will schedule a DB session and see if that helps.

Thanks as always for checking in! lodo

[LoginName]

lodo,
I started in peicing. Kept feeling I really wasn't there yet, but was getting great advice and they asked me to stay.

Then, the advice dried up, I got lonely, moved to MLC and to Infedility. Got some good advice there but not as good as in peicing.

I don't think it matters much at this point where you post. We're all peicing in a way.

I think the OM can be an addiction, and one very hard to break. Best you can do is give her space, don't think about the OM, dont' talk about him. He is just a symptom of what she's going through.

The whole ILYBINILWY speech, the "lack of atraction", I don't know what to believe about that. I say, she believes it, so it's true for her. you can't control her reality. Let it go. What do you feel? Take care of you, while maintaining your vows. Don't let it hurt your pride. It's not about you. It's in her.

I can tell you that if (when?) she decides she's attracted to you again, it'll be incredible. And if she never is again, then by GAL and PMA, you'll be a better person than when this started. It's a win-win, even if it doesn't feel like it now.

Some here would tell you that the ILYBINILWY stuff isn't real and you should ignore it. I agree, ignore it. She is showing you in many ways she is still attracted to you, even through her confusion and pain. But I also feel you shouldn't be trying to tell her how to feel or what she is feeling. Know what I mean? It's true to her, respect that. And.... ignore it.

Focus on GAL, PMA, detaching and listening when you get a chance. Really listen. Try to take yourself out of it - your pain, your feelings, put them aside and try to really listen and empathis with her, then validate her without kow towing to her. Did that make sense?

It's a long ride. I still get strength by remembering how it's my choice to do this. I don't have to do this. I'm in control, and I chose to wait, give her space, listen, love unconditionally.

[lodo]

Hey login,

It's funny, it's taken the last 2-3 months for me to figure out the PMA & GAL stuff, which I'm doing pretty good at now. But in the process I lost my ability to detach from W. So, that's the next step. But I'm pretty confident in my ability to do that.

Have been thinking that I might take off to the mountains for the weekend - W is going to IC tomorrow and there's a good chance she'll call afterwards. I think it would help me if I just remove myself from the temptation of talking with her about it.

It doesn't surprise me that she says she isn't attracted to me. Her emotions are in upheaval and I represent the unhappy past. But she REALLY wants to have the things we have together - to be in the house, to entertain, to plan and execute house projects, etc. Otherwise, she only has her PhD work. OM certainly is a part of that, but he also does nothing but work, and who wants to sit at a computer on a beautiful spring day instead of planting things in the garden or walking in the hills? I think that's why she wanted to move back in. With time, she'll recognize that it's her that's keeping the unhappy past alive and I've moved on to create a happier future, with or without her. So the question facing her is, does she want to throw that all away to be alone?

That said, I realize that I've been smothering her, which hasn't helped. I was trying to make up for past wrongs and she just isn't ready for that. So, no more touching - by now she knows I'm capable of it. No more R talks - they don't do any good without her willingness to be involved. And I think, for a little while anyway, no more friendship - I need to detach enough from that to refind my life without her and without the connection we share. By her telling me she needs more space, she has already played into that, because now she only has herself to blame. As MWD puts it, the spotlight is moving off of me and my failings and back to what she could have done differently. Any choice she makes in the future will be more balanced if she is more appreciative of what she brought into the R too.

I certainly understand that OM is a symptom and I recognize everything I did wrong and want to work on it. But I think the biggest things we need to address are being intimate and doing things together, and until she is willing to do at least one of those, I'm not really going to get a chance for her to see my changes.

Her comment about my accomplishments and that I'm a wonderful person lets me know that she sees I'm not in a rut anymore, that I appreciate the grad school experience she's going through (I'm also in a graduate program and just got my thesis proposal accepted - that's what she complimented me on), and she recognizes that I've been working hard for the good of our M and that means I'm someone who could make things work long-term. By me detaching now, she's left with deciding what kind of person she is going to be. Right now she says she just sees herself alone - she doesn't know how to maintain a R. If that's true, it's sad and I'll be better off without her. But I think we've been together for 12 years because, despite her lack of relationship skills, our friendship works.

Also, her inability to choose between leaving or staying lets me know that, deep down, she knows this could work if she puts energy into it. But she's admitted to being rude and not putting energy into it, which is why she asks what's wrong with her. The fact that she asks that makes me realize she sees that we really can make the M work if both of us are involved. What I don't think she appreciates is the way her emotional attachment to OM complicates things. My job is to put that out of mind and not give it any energy.

Whew, long post. Now it's time for action!

lodo