Look out for the landmines ... KABOOM!

[ANS]

Hi KAW,

In the spirit of looking at things with a beginner's eye, I'm gonna take a different approach from jethro.

Sometimes what someone wants is not the same thing as what they appear to want. I agree with jethro that it appears that your W wants you to take the lead. I think that your W may think that's what she wants too, but...

You're very supportive of her. That's a great trait and speaks volumes about your love and commitment. I wonder, however, if somewhere deep down inside her she feels that you're acting a little paternalistic.

She doesn't want you to be her dad, KAW. Maybe that's why she's confused about appreciating your caring nature. It conflicts with something else that she wants.

Basically, I approached her with how she's been acting for the last week and she broke down in tears. I embraced her and told her to let it out. She cried for nearly a half-hour before talking, …

“I told her to let it out.” That is something my dad used to tell me.

Maybe you’re trying too hard, KAW. D’ya think there’s any way you can just go out and do something with her on an adult-to-adult basis? Maybe a date?

[KAW]

Wow ... seek and you shall receive. Thanks for all the support. Lee & rjd, thanks for dropping by and for the comments. Due to time restrictions, I haven't been over to Newcomers too much recently, but will have to swing by soon.
Floyd, yea she kinda of fooled me into believing she was beyond confusion about the R ... so I thought I could start asking for what I wanted ... hence, setting up expectations that led to my scorecard mentality. Eventho I knew it was wrong, I let my expectations get the better of me. She obliged to my requests, but that exactly was the problem ... she viewed them as obligations which began to burden her, so she started looking outwards again to escape the burden.

KAW, I pulled out these quotes because they tell me your W remains in this bout of depression. Maybe this is the source of all of the difficulties lately? She just seems so sad and unmotivated. How is she doing with her meds? I know that you made some mention that you wouldn't remind her anymore to take them or pick them up at the store, but... Also, it's interesting that only just a few weeks ago, you had a nice talk with your W and she seemed to be trying a little harder on your R. Then, all of a sudden, she's done an about-face. What's that all about? Depression? Counseling?

She's been pretty good about taking her usual meds, but hasn't accepted the new meds. She tried the Wellbutrin for a couple of days, then stopped because she didn't like the way she felt. I suggested a couple of variants to time of day to take it in order to try to minimize side effects, but just refuses to take it anymore. In fact, she back to not wanting to see any doctors or having blood work done. I think her recent bout of depression is a symptom of yet a deeper source of her difficulties. I think this is why she wanted to go to C. See went a couple of times, then stopped. I asked about this last weekend. She brought it up as part of not wanting to see anyone any more because they can't help. From past session, I interpret this as they didn't agree with her conclusions, so she doesn't want to see them anymore.

I'm convinced the source of her current troubles is purely guilt-ridden. As to whether the source of her guilt is from the past year, her feelings for OM, the burden of obligations to felt make M work or perhaps recent actions based any of the above, I don't have time to get into right now nor do I feel I'm ready to express my conjecture at this time, but I didn't want to press last weekend jethro because I got the sense, that in the frame of mind she was in, if it came out, she would have felt she could resigned from trying any further to stay in R. More for self preservantion, I wasn't going to give her that option. If I don't give the option to cave-in now, maybe she still might find the desire to fight for us once again.

You know, whatever it may happen to be about, you'll have to deal with it sooner or later. Wouldn't you rather address it now before things can potentially get worse?

So bringing it out in the open now, when she is overwelmed with guilt and looking at the world and her life with very dark colored glasses, is it really the appropriate time?

Actually, if I'm right about what I believe has transpired, then I wonder if I can ever bring it up? ... but that is a topic for later discussion... sorry Big-j, not sure if I can even discuss it on this forum, but I like to have you know I am getting some comfort from what you shared that your W has gone thru in the aftermath of her A ... the stress, the guilt ... I believe my W is going thru it now ...

Maybe that's why she's confused about appreciating your caring nature. It conflicts with something else that she wants.

Its because it conflicts with what she feels she is deserving of. This she did practacally say when she asked during our cryptic talk ... "How can you possibly be with me now?" ... "Why are you so good to me?"

Maybe you’re trying too hard, KAW. D’ya think there’s any way you can just go out and do something with her on an adult-to-adult basis? Maybe a date?

I've been trying, just to try to "shake" her out her funk even just for a little while. On the 16th, a comedian we both like was performing at a local club. I'd ask if she wanted to go, she replied, "I don't want to do that anymore." I said I wanted to do something special over the holiday weekend, she said she wanted to do absolutely nothing. I'd mentioned seeing Jim Carrey's (sp?) new movie for laughs. She gave me a raspberry. I may end up taking D9 and see if W decides to tag along.

Some big strides (at least to me, if I'm interpretting them correctly) were made last night! When I got home, my W turned into a chatter box! Everything about her day, how she was feeling at the moment (including a comment that maybe what she needed was a good cry). I just sat there and listened. When it came time for D9's bedtime, I mentioned I need to put my lunch together for tomorrow and asked, I wonder what I would want? She said, peanut butter & jelly. Then added, I could go for one right now. I said OK, I'll make you one with mine. When I got up, she looked at me and ask for a hug! Except for Monday's "mistake", this was her first request for physical touch in two weeks!! During the embrace, she said going to cry again. I just kept embracing for as long as she held on. She woke up in the middle of the night (nightmare?) with a jerk that woke me up. I embraced her from behind, to which she held onto my arm, snuggled in closer and wrapped her legs around mine.

Sudden about faces, twist & turns, loop-de-loops, will the ride ever end?

Oops! Spent all the time today writing about myself ... but I promise to get around to you swell folks soon...

Thanks again for all the support...

'til later,
KAW

[jethro]

Hey KAW.

I don't have time to get into right now nor do I feel I'm ready to express my conjecture at this time, but I didn't want to press last weekend jethro because I got the sense, that in the frame of mind she was in, if it came out, she would have felt she could resigned from trying any further to stay in R. More for self preservantion, I wasn't going to give her that option.

So bringing it out in the open now, when she is overwelmed with guilt and looking at the world and her life with very dark colored glasses, is it really the appropriate time?

Okie-dokie. I understand a bit better now. I guess I needed a few fill-in-the-blanks. Makes sense.

sorry Big-j, not sure if I can even discuss it on this forum, but I like to have you know I am getting some comfort from what you shared that your W has gone thru in the aftermath of her A ... the stress, the guilt ... I believe my W is going thru it now ...

Ohh...I see... Well, I'm glad my sitch has offered some insight. You know, I do think that our S's guilt can become so overwhelming that it is easier for them just to give up. It does take an act of bravery on their part to make the necessary changes to move forward with the R... I pray that your W was shedding the last throes of her "funk" and will now "return" to you...as may be the case given how well last night went... Hopefully, there are far more of those nights to come, KAW.

jethro

[KAW]

Last eveining was a very neutral night as she remained quiet most of the time, so I let her be. For the first time since last June, I noticed W had her journal out again in plain sight on her nightstand. As she fell asleep, I couldn't help but that a peek. She had written four pages, but with W being a light sleep I was only able to read the first. It comfirmed my theory's. She hid the book this morning, so now I'm going to have to paraphrase.

Basically, she said she can't get over her feelings for OM. In fact, her feeling's for OM are far stronger than any she has for me and she can't understand why that is, because he hasn't returned them back, meanwhile I am willing to move mountains for her [her words] and many women would kill to have what she has here ... but she wants to be Mrs. OM! However, he has made it clear its not what he wants. She's sees herself in a no-win situation and that is reason for her depression.

It sucks that I was right about this. DB Master, I've been called here. Don't think so. If OM ever shows a remote glimmer of interest in her, she would leave me in a heartbeat. The fact that he doesn't want her, is what has kept her here, not anything that I have done. She knows if she leaves me, she still would not be happy and won't accept what she has here will ever be good enough for her because of how she feels for him. How do I compete with a fantasy ... a phanthom she chases? The title of this thread should have read seamines instead and now I feel my boat is taking on water.

Sorry guys, just don't know what to do now .. what direction do I take?

'til later,
KAW

[rjd5974]

Well, first things first. Don't read her journal anymore!

As far as your sitch, I would say to just keep being the person that will "move mountains for her". This thing with the OM will fade in time, and if you're still there standing tall she will start moving towards you again. At that time you can think about dealing with the issues that led her to this A. This guy is obviously not interested in your W so just be strong and wait for her to come out of her funk. I know it sucks, and I know it's frustrating, but there is definitely hope if you just have the patience.

[Jamesjohn]

meanwhile I am willing to move mountains for her [her words] and many women would kill to have what she has here ...

KAW, what might happen if you didn't move quite so many mountains for her ALL of the time? What if you were take take a break from doing this, for even just an hour or two? Maybe even a day or two?

Have you tried this lately?

[KAW]

what might happen if you didn't move quite so many mountains for her ALL of the time? What if you were take take a break from doing this, for even just an hour or two? Maybe even a day or two?

For what means? Not sure I see where you are going with this? To be more attentive to her needs was one of my biggest and first 180's. Wouldn't that be like Andy's 180 + 180 = 360?

rjd, last summer my W was hoping that would be true ... that feelings for OM would fade and she could nuture the ones she has for me and she has tried!! In March, she started contacting OM again. Last weekend, she told me, she can't fight it anymore ... I feel she maybe has given up.

'til later,
KAW

[jethro]

Ahh...crap, KAW!

I know it's a bunch of psycho-babble, but perhaps she is drawn to OM because he is unavailable? I don't know, KAW, it's a difficult one. I do have to agree with JJ in that it might do you some good to pull back a bit. Not only will it likely do you some good, but who knows, maybe it will force your W to sort some things out on her own. It seems very clear you are the rock in your R, and she does lean on you for support. Maybe the rock needs to roll downhill a little?

I know you don't bring up certain issues with your W for a variety of reasons: how you used to overdo it in the past, reminding her about the guilt from her A, her depression, etc. But maybe it's time? Thing is, KAW, it takes two to actively work on a R and get things straightened out. I have this feeling from your posts and some of your other responses that you guys REALLY haven't dealt with the A...only in an ancillary way. You seem to hold back on telling her how you feel because you are concerned with the affect it may have on her, and frankly, are unsure whether it would do any good anyway. And when you try to talk to her, you allow her apprehension to govern whether the conversation continues. What about the affect it's having on you? What about the affect it's still having on her?

Heck, I don't know. This stuff is hard, dammit! Are there any things that maybe you could do differently to change the dynamic here? Another 180? Maybe backing off is the answer here and not trying to talk to her. I'm just trying to throw a few things out there...

Stay strong, my friend. You still are a DB Master. Just because your W has chosen to remain locked in her internal battles is not a reflection of your efforts. I wish I had something a bit more insightful to add...

jethro

[Jamesjohn]

For what means? Not sure I see where you are going with this? To be more attentive to her needs was one of my biggest and first 180's. Wouldn't that be like Andy's 180 + 180 = 360?

I'm not really talking about a total 360 here. I think that your being more attentive to her needs was a great 180, and has taken you a long ways. In some cases, not all, the 180's can become, for lack of a better word, "stale" after a period of time.

Doing a total 180 is a great way to break patterns, and to get the momentum flowing in a different direction. After awhile, though, a good 180 usually finds it's way to being maybe a "135", or even a "90". It's like the Karate Kid deal, trying to find your balance, grasshopper!

I'm almost wondering if, at times, you might be paying TOO much attention to her needs. Or are doing this too "non-stop". If you're not taking a break every once in awhile, you run the risk of draining the life-forces out of yourself, and you might not be allowing her the opportunity to grow.

You don't have to kick the chair out from under her, but you can move it every once in awhile, or maybe stick something under one of the legs so it rocks a bit, and she has to balance it on her own.

I'm kinda rambling here, so I don't know if I'm making a lot of sense! I guess my point is it's ok to shake things up every once in awhile. To "do something different", and see what the results are.

[BRIDGET]

KAW:

Oh, KAW, I feel for you. I know how much this hurts.
It feels awful, but it's good when you can make
sense of odd behavior, isn't it?

Let's take this apart a bit, shall we?

You know, I too have resorted to
reading my H's private writings (email)
to confirm the O-chick was back on the scene.
Once I knew what was up with that, I
didn't have to pry anymore. "Aha, so that's it!"

It's a low thing to do and I feel bad about it
-- human, tempted, upset and relieved too.

Now you know.

But what do you know? That she still has
feelings for the jerk. That he dumped her.
She's pining. It's drama.

Drama plain and simple. Nothing more.
And drama will pass. You gotta wait it out.

I know how hard it is not to get caught up in it.

My H wrote similar things -- called me "the Mighty
Bridget" while his chick couldn't read and chew
gum at the same time -- still he pined for her.
It's human nature to long for something just
out of reach.

But pining fades away.

It fades FASTER if you get a daily dose of your dreamboat and find out they fart and fail, just like the rest of us.

I wish it were easier to put aside MY FEELINGS (longing
for H to come to his senses) and speed up the process
by shoving him toward the silly twit, knowing the
predictable outcome is she's just toying with His Baldness and he's gonna tire of beer-busts-till-you-puke.

You could tell your W to pack up and take a hike.

I guarantee it would get results. Of course,
you're way too nice for that.

But heck, why not imagine the scenario?
"Honey, I want you to be happy. I love you
but I can see you're miserable here, and I
understand. You would be happier alone.
So here are the apartment listings. I'll be
happy to help with the first month's rent."

Smile.

God, I wish it was possible to really do this.
Shake them up while gliding happily along.

Well, back to my lecture -- here's the crux --
her feelings are JUST FEELINGS.

Feelings are NOT THE TRUTH, KAW. Feelings fluctuate.
You cannot base anything on her feelings.
Repeat that. You cannot base a foundation on sand.

(Repeating to myself, too.)

So detach. Do not obsess. Yep, our WAS wanted other
people. They've been petty and cheap toward us.
Mine cut roses from our anniversary tree to give
that ungrateful coed. Ouch. It's not fair. We don't
deserve this. But that's what we got, and we
even kinda understand. It's sad, but it's liveable.
Love is strong stuff.

Love is not what you do when the sun shines.
Love is what you do when it gets dark.

Sez my C. Who is proud of me for demonstrating
unconditional love while my H behaves like a
punk.

I want to stop rambling now, taking up so much
space here. Just want you to know we all feel
for you and are here for you through the whole
ride.

I'm here for ya. Singing the blues with youse.

Will keep checking in on you. And he, sing the blues,
but also go out dancing. Make that woman wonder
where YOU are!

I'll be thinking of you, right next door,

Bridget