Okay, I understand the reasoning behind the separation papers so you can legally get more time with the kids. Honestly, the fact that she feels justified in keeping the kids from you this much is quite disconcerning. She is a typical WAS -- completely in selfish mode. You will find out all about the WAS habits and behaviors in DR (btw, how far into it are you?). If she will not budge on the sharing of the kids, then I agree that you should move along the separation papers. However, don't do it in hopes that she will "wake up" or anything of that nature. That's pretty much why I filed for D, and honestly it had quite the opposite affect.
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I am doing all I can to better myself, it just feels like its falling on death ears and eyes.
The focus is not to be on your W in regard to your changes. Don't do it for her -- do it for YOU. If you truly believe you need to make these changes, then you won't primarily concern yourself on whether or not she acknowledges them. And, btw, if she's noticing them, you won't know it for quite some time. She will keep these observations to herself. In addition, she probably won't believe they're genuine until you keep them up consistently for a very long period of time (at least several months, to be quite honest). Remember, prepare yourself for a marathon (4 months is a good start, but it is very, very likely you have much further to go).
Now, regarding your changes. What are the things about yourself that you believe you need to change? What did you do to contribute to the breakdown of the M? Most definitely, your W played a roll in this breakdown too, but since she won't acknowledge that right now (nor can you control that) we have to focus on your part. This is an extremely important step. The more honest you can be about this, the better you can do to work on the changes and the better other DBers can help you.
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How soon did you start DR after your seperation?
Unfortunately, 6 1/2 months (and 4 months after I filed for D).
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Do you think that your W has noticed any difference in you?
Without a doubt! I know this because a) she has briefly commented on it on a couple of occasions (1 recently), b) she is much more friendly with me and comfortable around me, and c) I haven't been any of the things I mentioned in my first post since I started DBing last May. I've been nearly 100% consistent with my changes since then. And, in all honesty, I think it took seeing me continue on with my changes AFTER the D for her to actually believe they are genuine and permanent. She now has a boyfriend and is living with him, but it is my understanding that she doesn't care for him much anymore (heard it through the grapevine). However, financially she is kind of stuck with needing him since she can't support herself and the kids (we have 50/50 custody) on her own. He is 12 yrs older than her, but really he isn't a very responsible guy (has 2 previously failed M's and doesn't do jack at home). She met him through work. I myself started dating right at the time of our D, and she knows I'm casually dating a few different girls. I have no plans of getting into a serious R anytime in the near future, and I believe she regrets getting into hers (they've been together for about a year now). Sorry, think I got off track there...
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I didn't realize what a jerk I was.
Can you explain?
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If I only knew 5 months ago what I know now I would probably not be in this situation.
It is almost certain that you wouldn't have realized this until your W dropped the bomb. It almost always takes a major crisis to fully occur before we are able to understand the magnitude of our previous choices, actions, and behaviors.
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She can't remember any of the good times we had together, in her eyes everything was bad.
This is exactly what DR will explain to you -- typical WAS behavior. It justifies their decision to walk away. What you need to do is show via your actions and behaviors why she should want to stay with you.
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I am hoping that putting the house on the market and having less time with the kids then maybe she will come around on her actions. This is probably wishful thinking.
Yes. Don't do it for that reason. Do it to protect yourself -- and make sure she understands that IF she becomes upset about it.
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I am going to try my best to stop talking about our M with her. I know it will be hard.
Yes it will be hard, but most likely it is the best choice to make at this time. You are at the Last Resort Technique (read up on it in DR). Stopping the chase and becoming attractive to her via your changes is what you need to do.
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By chance, during your seperation, do you think you could have done anything different that may have made more of an impact?
Yeah, before I found DR I could've not been an ahole, not filed for D, and not attempted to force an ultimatum on her. I actually tried to make her choose to either work things out or get a D a mere 7 weeks into our separation. Guess which one she chose? Once again, my attempt to control her and/or the situation reinforced her belief that continuing a M with me was the wrong thing to do.
Hope that helps, ping. Please let us know about the things you did to help facilitate the breakdown of the M, and the behaviors you know you need to change.
Do you ever feel like you are being put on a test to see if you pass or fail it? I can't help but to feel this way at times.
In your case, it probably is a test b/c you said she fears that you would just revert back to your old ways in a year or so. Therefore, you will have to go for a lenght of time in order for her to be convenced that you will remain the improved man.
In rare cases, I think S is good for some M. By that I mean that some couples reach a point that they just get tired of each other. They start to get on each other's nerves and the other one's bad habits are harder to endure. It's like you need a vacation from each other. When the R begins to break down, I wish couples would S before they just jump into D. When I was a kid, that is what people did. D was the very last straw. Of course, you didn't hear of as much back then as you do now. But couples now, sleep together one night and file for D the next day....I just don't get it.
As long as she doesn't file for D then you still have time on your side to show her your changes. Even if she did file for D....if she doesn't remarry, you still have that chance, so don't give up.
It is not about what you feel should work in your M. It is about doing the work that gets the right results. Do what works!
Thanks Sandi, we are starting the seperation paper work. In NC you have to wait one year and one day before divorce is final so I still have 8 months to maybe show some changes.
Here is a question that I have for others, in DR it states that I need to start the dark side, my W and I still have a talking relationship. Our boys are both into sports and we go to those functions, in fact at many of them we walk around together to get exercise. The other problem is my W works with the same company that I do so we do have some contact through work also. I guess my question is this, what do I do about our time together? I can not stop going to my kids events. We still have to communicate some due to work. I guess I am somewhat thankful that our marriage hasn't ended to the extent that we don't talk at all or see eachother.
I do have a problem of bring up our R with her. I know this is wrong and I have to stop as I know it is probably only pushing her further away.
I asked my W last night if she would consider watching Michelle's DVD set she has for sale in her store about why divorce is not the answer. Is this a good idea to purchase these and have my wife watch them? She said she would maybe watch them, at least it's a start. Any opinions on this?
I can tell you that when I got my own place 2 weeks ago and was happy about finally getting out of my parents house, I saw a softer woman in her that I felt walls may be starting to come down. I was talking to her about what I plan on doing to the yard and other things. She actually helped me put beds together and move things in. We went to dinner that night and a few nights afterwards. I thought I was making progress but stupid me I had to bring our R up and I got shot back down. Now she is back to where she was for the most part.
My W is a giving person by nature, she has stated on many occasions that we can keep this professional while going through with D. So part of me feels that she is only doing all of this because she can be professional and being the type of person she is and other parts of me just hope that maybe she is coming around. Who knows? It's like everytime I bring up trying to save our marriage she has another reason for why we shouldn't. Yesterdays reason was we didn't see eye to eye with the kids, she is the one that disciplines and I am the easy one with them which bothers her. Of course I told her we could work that out but the more we talked the more she would shut down and ask how much longer I planned on staying there.
So what do I do now? We have to communicate due to the kids. Any advice for what I should do from here on out?
Hi GD, the changes I am working on are to control my actions more, I am in counseling now and have been for about the last 3 months. I was put on an anxiety medication which has really helped. I was always one that had a short temper, I seemed to never be happy no matter what I was doing. I am a very competitive person and I feel that hurts me alot in my everyday life as I always strive to win at whatever I do. It's funny I mention that because just yesterday again while talking to my wife she made that comment again, "this is a game to you for you to win by trying to get back home." Although I am very competitive and I want to go back home, this is not the case, this is my life I'm dealing with but I can't make W see that, she only wants to believe this is just a game. I guess she does have her reasons as I have told her in the past that I would change only to go back to being an A_ _. I really am working hard on trying to be more positive, all I ever saw in our M before was the negative and I wasn't shy about telling her about them. I brought her down to my level you could say which is why I am in the situation I am in today. She feels with all of this negative that we had in our M that she was the one that changed and she lost herself in doing so. She didn't like the fact I was always on the computer at home and never spent time talking to her. I can see her point on that now. We did not have much communication other than about the kids. We stopped communicating a while back. W has made the comment that we have better talks now then we did when we were together. Of course I tried to tell her that it would be that way if we were to R but again she didn't want to hear that.
So to make a long story short, I am working on becoming more at ease with myself and others, not to worry about every little thing. Start seeing more positives and less negatives. More communications skills. Better control of my temper and anger.
Like you stated in one of your above posts, I was insecure about myself and I was always afraid someone would come along and sweep my W off her feet and for that reason instead of being a better person to her, I became more in control and negative. Who knew it would be pushing my wife away instead of someone taking her from me.
Can I tell you something that is strange and even funny about women? I will use the story about my son when he was a teenager. There was this beautiful girl that went to our church and he really had a crush on her (as they say now, he had the "hots" for her, big time....lol). But, when he tried to win her over enough to even get a date ......she walked all over him. I am sure she could just look in his face and see the "hound dog" look in his eyes. But, she was enjoying making him miserable! That little twit was using all her female whelms to make him do tricks! Finally, he woke up and realized the game she was playing with him. So, this is what he did.....and I was so proud of him...I didn't even have to tell him how to handle this...lol.
Everytime there was a group standing around talking, he made sure that he got in the group and talked to somebody. Or manybe it wouldn't be a group....maybe just another guy. My son was never rude to her, but he just didn't pay her much attention at all. It was like he did not have the time of day for her. So guess what happened? She started coming around to him and trying to get his attention! She would walk up to him while he was talking (or listening) to another person, and he would look at her.....smile that charming smile of his and say, "Hi", and then immediately turn his attention back to the other person and really ignored the girl.
It is kind of hard to explain, but it is like he was always charming and polite....nice and friendly....but the secret was that he did not treat her or show that she was any thing special to him. First thing you know......she is all over him (lol). it was so funny to watch b/c I knew exactly what was going on.
The thing is that women are still like this girl even after they grow up. It is that particular man they think they can't have that they want. The man that doesn't give them the time of day that they want to force him to notice her! It is the challenge! That is why some women can really end up making a fool out of themselves. We have all seen that happen.
Okay, how do you do this in your stitch when you are married with children? You said something that made me think that the two of you see each other at work? If so, you can really show her that she is just another employee......nobody special to you. You treat her like you treat everyone else there.....professional.....polite.....throw in a tad of charm and a warm smile......but do not linger around her.....do not talk to her except when necessary and strickly business or something to do about the kids games, etc. Then, keep the same type of personality.....a little distant, but warm and charming.....you know, like she wants...professional!
Make yourself unavailable!! Stay busy all the time....at least appear to be busy. Learn how to be friendly to others at the work place so you don't appear to be a loner. Make a point to stop and chat a little bit with others around her.....but not chat with her. If she comes up to you as if to join in the coversation, do like my son did.
At the ball games for the kids.....do the same thing. I bet you know some parents there that you can talk with and sit with. Of course you will speak to your wife and appear to be friendly....but don't linger....move on quicly. Keep all the talks about the kids, house, everything professional.
This is detaching! You have to have a certain amount of contact with her, but in your manner and actions......you are showing you are detaching from her. This is when she will start to notice you. Let you charming self show to others. She may pretend not to notice.....but she will. Regain the qualities that drew her to you when you got that first date with her.
She may resist at first b/c of not trusting or trying to convince herself she wants her freedom, but if you are really making the physical, mental and overt changes that you claim......she can't help but notice.
The biggest thing now is do not pursue her. Everything is pressure to her. Don't ask her to watch the DVD or read the books or anything like that. I know how badly you want her to, but it is pressure. Everytime you bring up the subject of the R, it is like poison to her. You might as well shoot her down b/c you will have to start this thing all over again from the beginning. Keep that in mind whenever you are tempted. It shows weakness, and women hate that in their H's.
I think one thing she needs to learn about being on her own and having her "freedom", is the responsibility that goes along with it. If she is going to live on her own, you should not be expected to support her. The kids, yes, but not her. Women don't realize they can't live on child support only.....it is just for the kids. And, I've learned by reading a lot of post here on the board that some H's think they are suppose to continue to make the house payments, etc. That is bull. If she can't make the payments.....she should downsize to what she can afford. Some men say they don't want their kids to have to live with less (talking about nice homes, etc.), but I think the woman has to see how it is going to be without her H in the picture. Man, if I could have stayed here in my home and my H leave and yet pay all the bills.....I would have thought I was in hog heaven! That is not what you want for her.
Okay, enough of that for one night. Take care.
Sandi
It is not about what you feel should work in your M. It is about doing the work that gets the right results. Do what works!
Thanks Sandi, I have to say that I was just like how you described your son when she and I first started dating and I thought the more I acted as I didn't want her the more she wanted to be with me. It's funny how things turn on you, now I am the one wanting her and she is the one not wanting me. So you do make a great point.
Do you really not think that purchasing the DVD set of why Divorce is not the Answer is not a good tool for her to watch? I was just hoping that maybe something would be in it that she has not clearly thought out and would make her think about her actions more.
I am not one of those type that believe in letting W stay in the house and I keep paying the payments like nothing has changed. We recenlty purchased this house back in July 07, this was my dream house on a golf course. I find that my worst days going through this are the days I have to go to the house. I love that house and if she does not want to save our M then the house must go. I'm sure I will be paying child support and probably alimony. Don't know how much yet but that is what the lawyers will figure out I guess. One of the clauses I will have in the seperation papers are to either put the house on the market by a certain date or to buy me out by a certain date. W hasn't stated what she will be doing yet, my guess is she is waiting to find out how much she will being paid each month and then make that determination.
Either way thank you for posting. What is your circumstance? Do you have a link to your sitch?
I asked my W last night if she would consider watching Michelle's DVD set she has for sale in her store about why divorce is not the answer
Since you have already brought the subject up to her and she sort of considered it, but didn't give a definite answer.....I would just leave it out where she can see it and then leave it up to her. She may not feel comfortable and even resent watching it with you thinking it is going to point to her as being the bad guy for wanting the D. However, she may watch it while she is home alone. So, since the subject has been approached, that is what I would do. But, please, do not ask her if she has watched it yet or what she thought about it or anything about it. Where ever you put DVD's to watch.....leave it there for her to see, or maybe she will be the one to get it. Anyway, let the choice be hers b/c this is certainly pressure on her. To you, it is hard to try to understand why she is not trying to put more effort into saving the M. To her.....everything you do that brings up the subject is pressure. So, stop talking R.
As you said, you see that when you back away.....it causes her to come closer. Play the mating game. Humans are as strange a creature as any other animal.
Keep posting, reading......oh BTW, I do have a thread over in the Piecing forum......"Sandi's in Piecing from Almost a WAW". Won't be hard to find me....lol. I started out in the MLC forum, went to Newcomers (I think) then to Piecing, then to SSM and now back to Piecing. Been all over the place. But, plan to stay in Piecing now. Mine is a long story b/c I've been married a long time. As I told one person, I couldn't tell everything at once.....tooo long (lol), but I answer a lot of other people's posts and I give bits and pieces of more of my stitch along the way.
Best wishes to you and keep talking to us.
Sandi
It is not about what you feel should work in your M. It is about doing the work that gets the right results. Do what works!
Thanks for replying Sandi. I have another question that I need answered from others here. Do I just start the dark side or do I let her know via email, talking or a letter that I am moving on with my life? Not quite sure what to do with this, part of me wants to let her know that I am no longer going to try and just move on. Is this smart?
One other question, has anyone watched Michelle's DVD set, if so, what did you think about it? I have yet to purchase them, if they can help at all then I definitely want to get them and see what may come from it.
Ping, you probably are getting tired of hearing from me so much, but I don't think you should do the dark thing at this time. For one, your kids, and second....don't think the timing is right and you said you two are still talking, and third....I just don't think you are emotionally ready to go dark.
That is just my take on it. Someone else can chime in.
It is not about what you feel should work in your M. It is about doing the work that gets the right results. Do what works!
I know this because a) she has briefly commented on it on a couple of occasions (1 recently), b) she is much more friendly with me and comfortable around me, and c) I haven't been any of the things I mentioned in my first post since I started DBing last May. I've been nearly 100% consistent with my changes since then. And, in all honesty, I think it took seeing me continue on with my changes AFTER the D for her to actually believe they are genuine and permanent. She now has a boyfriend and is living with him, but it is my understanding that she doesn't care for him much anymore (heard it through the grapevine). However, financially she is kind of stuck with needing him since she can't support herself and the kids (we have 50/50 custody) on her own. He is 12 yrs older than her, but really he isn't a very responsible guy (has 2 previously failed M's and doesn't do jack at home). She met him through work. I myself started dating right at the time of our D, and she knows I'm casually dating a few different girls. I have no plans of getting into a serious R anytime in the near future, and I believe she regrets getting into hers (they've been together for about a year now). Sorry, think I got off track there...