Hi everyone, I just want to say what a great board this is. I found it last night and went and bought Michelle's "The Divorce Remedy" today. I can't wait to read it.
To give you some history, my wife and I seperated in November 07. We had a big fight about a month prior to that and things changed afterwards. I left feeling that a few weeks of being apart then all things would get better. Well that was 4 months ago and we are still seperated. We have two great boys, 6 and 10. I stayed with my family up until two weeks ago when I finally rented a place that is only 3 miles from my wife and kids.
Leading up to the seperation day, we discussed how we would do our own seperation agreement and we would put the house on the market as neither of us would be able to afford it by ourselves. Well that has all changed, I finally went to a lawyer to start the process of a seperation agreement as I can't get my wife to agree to sit down and do it, nor will she agree to put the house on the market. She doesn't know if she will keep it or sell it. Of course this is leaving me on the fence of what she wants to do. I want nothing more than to save our marriage, I see that I have been doing some things that I shouldn't which is constantly bringing it up to her and begging her which I can see that she has probably been driven away by these actions.
The reason for going to the lawyers is that she tells me that she does not want to work things out but she is not willing to let me see my kids equal time nor will she decide what she is going to do about the house. I had a hard enough time renting the place I'm in now because the house is on my debt to income which will prevent me from buying in the future if the house is not out of my name.
I want nothing more to save our marriage, I have started counseling for myself, reading lots of material and really have tried to change alot of the wrong that I have. She feels she is happier and that the kids are fine with everything. The bad thing is she won't even talk to the kids about this, I do and I know the kids are not fine, in fact they are building resentment toward her over this whole ordeal. Can someone help me out, do I keep trying? Our boys are involved in baseball so we go to practice, my wife and I walk around for exercise and have conversations, so it's not like we don't talk or anything like that, in fact the weekend that I moved closer to them, we as a family went out to eat 3 different times, I thought things were getting better but she had to tell me last week that "it was an ackward situation for her and she didn't want to mislead me.
I am beating my head against the wall on all of this. Do I start acting like I don't care? Do I persue with the seperation papers? Neither of us are involved in other relationships, she was my high school sweetheart, we have been married 14 years and together 22 years. Please give some advice from those who are going through this, I don't want to keep doing what I am doing because it obviously is not working.
Welcome to our community. The more you tell us about your situation, the more we might be able to help you. At least you can come here to vent your frustrations.
How old are you and your W? Do you see any other changes in her such as the way she is dressing or her hair & make-up? Is her personality different than usual?
Why are you so sure there is not another man in her life?
These are just a few things to start with and then we can go farther.
Keep posting on a regular basis b/c people here care and want to help.
Sandi
It is not about what you feel should work in your M. It is about doing the work that gets the right results. Do what works!
Two things that stick out at me. I am a GAL (Guardian Ad Litem) and I am concerned over the fact she won't allow equal access to the kids (what is the reason) and the fact that you two are discussing anything with the kids.
On the situation- I wish I could offer you advice, but I SUCK right now in my own mess.. so bad I really don't "need" to be giving advice! : - )
M: 39 H: 40 D: 12 S: 9 Married: 10 years Together: 11 years Dday- March 14th, 2008 Bomb-I don't love you-Easter 2008
Currently-living in same home, slowly working back towards a marriage.
Hi Sandi, I am 37 and W is 35. I have not seen any difference in her clothes, makeup or hair. As far as another man goes, I just don't see it although you would think that the way she has gone forward with this whole ordeal anything could be possible but I just don't think that is the case. If there is another man, I'm not sure when she would be seeing him, her only free time is every other weekend and that time she is at the house and her mother comes over most of the time.
My W said she lost herself in our relationship, she doesn't know who she is anymore. I will admit that all I ever focused on was the negative, not the positive and that is a big part of where we are at with the seperation today. She stated that if what we had in our marriage is what marriage is about then she wanted no part of it. She felt that when she came home and if I was in a bad mood then she and the kids would have to be walking on egg shells and she was tired of living that way. We never spent much time together just she and I. Once our kids came along, I spent so much time focusing on them that I forgot to focus on our marriage. We did go alot with the kids, but never just she and I. She has said that she thought she would miss me but she doesn't. Just two weeks ago when I told her I got a place to stay she stated "I won't happy married and I'm not happy now." I know from reading on this site that I have made many mistakes in my pursuit to save our marriage, I would send emails asking her back, call her trying to beg and plead and do the same when we are together. I am learning that was not helping my situation any, it may have been hurting me more than helping.
About 6 weeks ago I found lawyer papers in her car for seperation, she has yet to send them in or at least I have not received anything on my end. I was staying with my parents for over 3 months and felt like I had no life at all so I got my own place. My wife didn't understand why I needed my own place, she felt I should be able to have a life staying with parents. The weekend I moved in, my W came over and helped my put furniture together and we went to dinner with the kids. I told her I was lonely and she said she was also. We had a great time, even went to dinner 2 out of the next 3 nights due to kids baseball practices.
In one of my last pleas to save our marriage, she stated that she knew if she took me back and let me move in then things would go right back to where they once were in a years time. She thinks that this is a game for me and if she allows me to come home then I win the game, I would stop going to counseling and I am only doing all of the things to get better just to come home. She is on a power trip of being in control, I was a controlling husband, I will admit, she is now in control. W states that I am a manipulator and will do whatever I have to in order to get my way. I really want to save our marriage and our family, I know that I made alot of mistakes in our marriage and I would do whatever it takes to save it but she doesn't want to see it and I am lost on what I do next.
If you have been that controlling in the past, you may just have to let her control things for now. She will only believe that the changes you are making are not manipulative if you keep them up. That is just going to take time. Of course she is feeling like it will go back to the way it was. I think that is natural for anyone. You just have to continue to show her that the changes you are making are for YOU, not just for her. If you are truly changing for YOU, then you are more apt to continue those changes.
She may have just reached the "breaking point". By that I mean that she wants to be free to be her own boss to live her life as she wants to without somebody else in control of her.
Just keep posting and telling us all that you can from day to day. Read the DR book and follow it all the way. Work on yourself while you give her space and more freedome. Back away from her and focus on you and what you need to do to change for the better. Become the man she fell in love with. Go to the gym and work out. It helps get rid of a lot of frustration, plus it is good for your health and builds a sexy looking body. Take long walks to think clearly about your future and what goals you need to set. Get a life! Get out of the house and become a little more mysterious about yourself. Don't lie or mess around with other women.....just go out, drive around, go to the mall, buy new and different style clothes. Maybe you need a new male make-over. New hair syle, grow a beard...or shave it off...whatever. Something new. Get a professional to help you decide the best look for you. Get on a healthy diet. Get plenty of sleep. You don't want to look bad....you want to look good enough for her to want to gobble you up (lol). Wear good smelling men's cologne (no cheap stuff)......you would be shocked to know how that works on us women! Wear it everytime you start to go out and be sure you are wearing it when you know she will see you and how good you look and how wonderful you smell. If she asks what you are up to or where you are going.....don't lie, just tell her you want to get out a while. Do you like to bowl or some sports or hobby? In other words, stay busy! Have a life that does not include her. But, if she acts as though she would like to go along with you.....then you have the option of taking her or not. That is up to you.
I strongly suggest that you do not flirt with other women. I believe when men go to bars, they are asking for trouble. It looks as though you are going there to find sex with another woman. That will not help your marriage at all. Don't try to make her jealous b/c it will backfire. But you can do very innocent things as I have suggested and she can't get mad about that or accuse you of wrong doing. If you get dolled up to go out and get an ice cream cone......so what? Makes her wonder, doesn't it...lol. You can always invite her along,too. These things may sound silly to you (being a man and all that), but it works! You want to get her attention by changing not only your ways, but in how you look. Maybe you don't see anything wrong with how you look.....maybe you look like Brad Pitt.....If so, that's great, but most people could use a little sprucing up in reality, so it would get her visual attention and then she would start noticing the other changes.
When people have been married a long time, you go through a lot of changes and stages. You have to work hard at getting through these changes as they come. We all probably develop some bad habits over the years and get set in our ways and it is really hard to overcome that. Why not set some goals to work on for yourself. For instance, your number one goal should be to not be manipulative or controlling. You have to break it down into small goals that you can work on every day.
I hope you will have a chance to be a part of the kids' life. That is important and it will be a "lifeline" to your W. It will give you more opportunities for her to see you and the changes you have made. Plus, you need to pour your affection and attention on those kids. They are going to need it now more than ever before.
Even when a couple have S, it is not too late! She will see you and your changes. She will hear about it too. I hope that the S will be short termed. I know how it is to be in a MR that sucks. Just to run away to have freedome seems like a wonderful fantasy. Maybe it will do her good and you will have that time to make things better between the two of you. I think from what you said that you will have to prove to her that your changes are for life.....not just a game to win her back.
It's late and I need to go to bed. I want to talk to you more. If I can do anything to help, I want to be here for you. Please don't give up, okay?
Sandi
It is not about what you feel should work in your M. It is about doing the work that gets the right results. Do what works!
Thanks Edge and Sandi. I do not plan on giving up anytime soon. I am just going to change the approach that I have been doing that hasn't worked thus far. Yes I believe that my W has freedom that she has never felt before and is enjoying it to a certain extent.
I have recently started working out again, I need to drop a few pounds and feel better about myself. I did lose about 20 pounds when we first seperated but I have put about 10 back on. This will also help to relieve some unwanted stress.
I have no plans on hitting the bar scene, that is not my style and I know it will only be asking for trouble for myself if I have any hope of saving R.
Do you ever feel like you are being put on a test to see if you pass or fail it? I can't help but to feel this way at times. Some days are better than others, some days my W is much nicer and easier going than others, some days you feel like there really is a chance that the M can be saved and other days you just believe its all a put on.
I can't help but to feel used at times, we agreed to sell our house when we first seperated, that has been 4 months ago and W won't commit to selling it or keeping it. I am paying the mortgage which is a substantial amount every month. This is where the used part comes in, I feel like I am only a paycheck. At times I feel that she is trying to hold on to the house because she has plans on saving our R and other times I feel that she is just using me to pay the mortgage. It drives me crazy not knowing.
I don't know what the future holds. I can not get her to MC as she doesn't feel that will teach her anything that she doesn't already know, we did go to one about 2 months after the seperation and she says she didn't get anything from it. She has had some tough walls built up around her, I felt that some of those walls were starting to drop but then I feel they may be rebuilding.
I really feel one of my biggest battles to win her back right now is that she made a comment to me about a month ago during one of my pleads to her that she didn't think her mother could ever forgive me. Her mother and I were really close but once my wife told her about our fight we had I guess she feels her daughter is better off without me. My wife is one that aims to please others, especially her mother and "me at one time," which leads me to believe I am fighting a no win battle as if she feels that her mother will not approve of our R then I am doomed.
Much of your situation is a direct reflection of mine: high school sweethearts , 2 kids, controlling/manipulative, likely no OM, W wants freedom, W doesn't want MC, you're doing IC, W says she lost herself in the R and doesn't know who she is anymore, W felt like she was walking on eggshells when you were angry, you focused on the kids and not your M, etc. Quite honestly, the similarities are uncanny.
As you can see in my signature below, I'm now D'd from my XW. We were separated for a litle over a year before the D was final, and we've been D'd for 4 months now. That being said, things are a hell of a lot better now than they were 17 months (heck, even 4 months ago). I can say with certainty that the reason for this is the hard work I've done to make much needed changes in myself. You see, I became the biggest ahole in the world in my M. I was rude, a jerk, manipulative, guilt-tripping, verbally abusive and belittling, controlling, etc. I also had a very bad anger problem. I never made our M a partnership, and always believed that I was always right about everything. Also, I was very insecure as a man, which I believe added to the forementioned actions on my behalf.
What helped me to fix these things about me was first analyzing myself (esp through my W's lenses). I whole-heartedly stripped myself bear to see who I really was and how I was behaving and why. Things that helped me to do this was IC, several self-help and/or M saving books (DB/DR, The 5 Love Languages, Rebuilding: When Your Relationship Ends, His Needs/Her Needs), and a huge dose of humility and acceptance. Ultimately, you and I can only control ourselves, ping, and that at the very best means that we can control our actions, choices, behaviors, etc. Yes, it is hard work because we pretty much have to re-wire ourselves, but I have found that the more you focus on doing this and the more effort you put into it, the easier it becomes (to the point of it really becoming who you are -- not just who you want to be or should be).
You said you have purchased DR (which is GREAT!) -- I hope you're reading it as I type this, and continue to do so with every minute of spare time until it is finished. I also recommend reading it at least 2 more times afterwards, as it helps to make it really sink in and become an internal reference that is always accessible.
There is still hope for your M, ping, I promise you. For me, my changes are for life, and I will continue being the rock for my XW in times of need, and will continue being the man that she deserved to have in the first place. Many people draw a line in the sand in terms of when they will give up and/or move on. My line is when someone else comes along that makes me feel alive, loved, appreciated, respected, etc. Until then, I will leave the door to reconciliation with my XW open. I always believed that we would have to get D'd before any chance or reconciliation was possible, and things seem to be much better between us since the D was final. We went from hardly talking at all (only about the kids when necessary), to laughing and joking -- even talking on the phone and sitting in the same room together BSing. I believe she is final beginning to see my changes are genuine and here to stay. I don't know if it will ever change anything between us, but I'll be happy even if it doesn't. It is important to make these changes for YOU, and if your W ever decides she wants to come back to you, then that will be the icing on the cake for you. Otherwise, you'll be happy as a new and improved man, and will be an excellent catch for someone else down the road. I believe DR says it takes an average of about 3 months of consistent change for a WAS to actually consider that the change is for real and possibly permanent. Of course, there is no real way to know if this is the same timeline for your W, but I always believed it was worth consideration.
I tell you these things about my own failed M in hopes that you will find some knowledge that is applicable to your own sitch. Our sitches are very similar, and I believe there is still hope for both of us.
If there is anything I can do to help you out regarding your sitch and/or DBing, please don't hestitate to ask. As for these questions you asked:
Quote:
Do I start acting like I don't care?
Not necessarily. You start acting like you will be okay no matter what happens. Your W knows you care and that you don't want this, but what you have to do is show her that you are strong even in the face of this devastating change you're up against. Show her a man that is strong, happy, confident, calm, cool, understanding, etc. Show her a man that understands what he has done wrong, and who is working hard to change those old ways (and notice I said SHOW, not TELL. The worst thing you can do to ruin your credability here is to TELL her you're making changes. Your ACTIONS will tell her a much better/realistic story than your WORDS will. Trust me). Answer me this: is an attractive man someone who begs, cries, pleads, sulks, etc, or someone who is happy, humorous, confident, strong, has his own life and is staying active, etc? Which would you rather spend time with if you were a woman?
So, don't act like you don't care, but act like you are strong enough to deal with the reality of where things are as of now. Does this make sense?
Quote:
Do I persue with the seperation papers?
I would strongly suggest you don't, but really it is up to you. Do you think it is necessary, and that it will bring you closer to your goals? Have you established what your goals are yet? There is a section in DR that is excellent for helping you with these.
I got impatient with my XW during our S and ended up being the one who filed for D (this was several months before I found DR and this site, unfortunately). I wish I never would've done that. Filing for D is much different than filing for legal separation, but I thought it was worth mentioning to you as food for thought.
Honestly, the first thing you need to do is forgive yourself for your failing M -- the past is the past, and you did the best you could with the tools you had at the time. End of story. You're learning now what tools work best in a M, and that is what counts and what you should be focusing on. That and studying DR like your M depended on it! Time and patience are your best friend right now, so as difficult as they are to embrace, please do so. Saving your M isn't a sprint -- it's a stinkin' marathon!
As for your MIL, that is something that is out of your control, so please don't focus on it (it takes energy away for the things you CAN control). If your W truly decides she likes your hard-earned changes and wants to try again, than her MIL won't be able to change her mind. Just focus on making your changes and practicing DR strategies and suggestions. Do you ever see your MIL? If so, I suggest DBing her too. Couldn't hurt.
One more piece of advice for now -- don't say anything about DR to your W or anyone else that could potentially relay this info to your W. It is your Ace in the Hole -- don't give it up. Also, don't say anything negative about your M, W, sitch, etc (basically, anything you don't want your W to hear) to anyone that might relay it to your W. This could prove to be very damaging and counter-productive to your efforts.
Best of luck -- I'll try to check in later. I'm not really on the boards near as much as I used to be.
Thanks GD for your comments. I am doing all I can to better myself, it just feels like its falling on death ears and eyes. I'm glad to see someone who is in my shoes with the sitch I am going through. How soon did you start DR after your seperation? Do you think that your W has noticed any difference in you?
My wife states that she feels that she has become independent, she believes since in her words that I was not there in the marriage that she became independant and she is fine on her own. I didn't realize what a jerk I was. I do know that I can change and will change but she will not be able to see those changes being apart which I believe is the hardest thing for me to accept. I felt everything was going fine in our marriage, I know we had our ups and downs but that is life. I just feel that she can't forgive me for the wrong I have done and is holding a grudge inside and will not let it go. We stand so much to lose if we go forward with this. If I only knew 5 months ago what I know now I would probably not be in this situation but I know I can't look at the past and dwell on it.
I have already started the seperation paper process in which to get the house on the market and trying to get my kids more often, she refuses to let them stay with me except every other weekend. These are the only two reasons I needed to start the process. I guess in some way I am hoping that putting the house on the market and having less time with the kids then maybe she will come around on her actions. This is probably wishful thinking.
She can't remember any of the good times we had together, in her eyes everything was bad. This is just not the case.
I went over to her house today to see the boys for Easter, we started walking the house to value some of the things we have, I made the mistake of trying to talk to her again about our M. I just don't understand how anyone can throw this many years away. We have two great boys that need there parents together. I just don't see that she will be coming around and accepting that our M can be saved. It's like the longer the S goes the more and more she builds up wrong doings that were in our M.
I am going to try my best to stop talking about our M with her. I know it will be hard.
By chance, during your seperation, do you think you could have done anything different that may have made more of an impact?
runswithscissors, the reason she says I can't have the kids is because she thinks I am to easy on them and that I can't take care of them myself. I feel the reason she won't let me have them is because then her life may change some and she wouldn't want that. She will tell you that I am the best father she could ever ask for but will not let them spend but every other weekend with me.
As far as talking to the kids about the sitch, we don't talk about it much to them at all, two weekends ago the kids brought it up to me that there mother doesn't want them at the house as she is always getting mad and crying. Now I know she loves them very much and this is not the case as I tried to tell the boys but they have this in there heads. They also stated the only reason you are not home with us is because momma doesn't want you there. The kids want to spend more time with me and they were upset when W told them they could only stay every other weekend.
