Piecing or NOT....III

[WCW]

And until he actually comes to that realization you have a couple of choices.....

A. Do nothing. Just continue to live your life as it is now, and patiently wait with absolutely no expectations of anything changing.

B. Move out, and get yourself some councelling. Continue to date him, see him, but not live together as a Married couple.

C. Stay at home, and live in the same house with your Husband. GAL and do things to make yourself happy. Treat him as a roomie and accept that is all you have for now, but with the hopes that he will eventually come out of this MLC.

I've been doing option C for years, when is enough enough? How long do we exist on crumbs? Don't get me wrong, I'm all for patience and waiting out MLC and trying to get to the other side of all of this but there has to be a finish somewhere?

If H buys you a horse then he needs ows rent money even more. Do you see that coming?

[a new 2moro]

i guess ill take my fancy new horse and gal w/o h then...

[Jay Scott]

He seems to be making strides towards you, but he must show you the respect you deserve. Some here may not agree with that, but as a man I say that he must show you, his wife the respect of severing all communication with OW. He is lucky to have you as his W.

[Stillnlove]

a new 2moro:

charlyne cares
"Depending on your marriage, and God's wisdom and instruction, you may consider counseling, if you and your spouse agree. If it will cause strife, allow your Lord to be the perfect Counselor as in Isaiah 9:6."

Will it cause strife, or conflict and though such a thing may be uncomfortable, should it always be avoided--or may it be a part of the process?

he had a business dinner last nite....i asked point blank if he really did. yes he did oh and he didnt do that(lie)...to which I added you mean anymore? stuttered, stumble then something about "we had our problems but wee are past that now"

How does he see you as past you problems? Have you asked?

I think maybe it is time to not ask him a million questions. Like when he said he had a business dinner and you asked if he really did---he knows you do not trust him and he most likely expects you to ask him lots of questions.

This is one of the most difficult things to do. Sometimes they are deliberately trying to make you the jailer. The challenge is to maintain your boundaries and be firm without being the jailer.

Patti, are the two of you in marriage counseling together or have you been since he came home? If not, why does he refuse? What does he say? If not, are you in counseling alone?

I ACTUALLY DONT ASK HIM A MILLION QUESTIONS, I THINK THATS HOW I GOT CAUGHT LAST FALL BY KEEPING MY MOUTH SHUT.

We know. But to an MLCer, 2 questions may feel like a million. Steelers has a good point.
Your MLCer is not Acting If, but may be expecting certain behaviour from you. These expectations cause him to react to you before you act.

Why ask a person if they are being truthful anyway? It seems pointless since if they are lying you cannot trust their answer. Accept that his words may or may not be truthful.

I don't know that it is necessarily best to "be still" unless you can live with the way he is acting right now.
If you can't detach from it...then i don't think being still is the best thing.
I don't know that always doubting and questioning is the right thing either.

I guess it depends on how you define Be Still. For me it did not mean to sit back and accept his behaviour while on the sidelines. That may have been a part of it at ties or going on simultaneously. But for me, being still is internal. It is a stillness such as may be found in meditation. I do not think it is possible to Be Still in the absence of Detachment. I think Being Still is a place of Peace and Calm.

Doubting and questioning are not the same things. Doubting implies that a person is trying to have faith or believe in something.
When an MLCer returns while still deep in MLC it is better to accept that the MLCer may continue to lie and misbehave. He may TRY to stop, but addictions are harder to break than by simply desiring to do so.
Step into a more neutral place where rather than doubt, you accept that sometimes he is lying or misbehaving in some other MLC fashion.
By accepting, you release the wonder: is he or isn't he, does he or doesn't he...

Basically you have choice to make and only you an decide what is best for you.
1. be still and hope he starts acting like a real husband soon.
2. Take some big and drastic action to let him know you will not tolerate his behavior any longer.
I would suggest to pray about it... I knew when I found out that I was going to have to do something - even if that something was NOTHING. I knew I needed a game plan for when it happened.

I love BFM's comparison that this is like death to your marriage by a thousand cuts. And she's right about your choices--though there are usually more than two, we just don't know what they all are. And maybe you tried those unlisted choices already.

• step back and do Nothing
• Take Action

And she's right about the Game Plan. Take time to pray, this is part of Being Still, but when you make your decision, act swiftly and decisively.
What did you tell him when he came home? Did you say that certain behaviours would bring consequences from you?
If you did this and if he is involved in those forbidden behaviours, you need to follow through.
If you merely suspect the behaviours, what can you do? Research, pray...?
If you know he is involved in forbidden behaviours and he doesn't know that you know, you have some reprieve. Take some time to pray about what to do.
If he knows that you know, ACT.

You now seem to be in the state of mind that has you not believing anything he says or does. Not passing judgement, just observing.
If that's the case, this co-habitation is serving no useful purpose.
Your comments will become the ammunition for an escape on his part at some point. He will be able to point back to your questions and implicit accusations and say that you would not forgive, you would not move past the past.

I agree. But having LBS experience, I want to design some comments to the you wouldn't forgive me comment.
We have not moved past what happened, it is still part of the present. I'm still scared. The issue is not a lack of Forgiveness, but the nature of the process of rebuilding trust. Your actions destroyed my Trust and it will tale Time and Actions to rebuild. Words and praises are not enough.
I forgive you, but since I do not want to repeat the past, I refuse to forget it. If you want me to trust you, you need to earn new Trust from me, you need to take the time to build it.
Validate him. MLCers do not understand the LBS's point of view. They may not be able to empathize. Because h may not get it doesn't mean he is not trying or that he is insensitive. If he is being honest and he knows it, then it frustrates him that you cannot trust what he knows to be genuine.
The irony is that if he is misbehaving but is absolutely certain you cannot know, he may feel the same frustration. He may feel that your suspicions are because of his past behaviours and unfounded. And maybe he is hiding things well and you still sense his misbehaviour. MLCers don't understand that LBSs need reassurances.

Michelle herself states that the returning spouse MUST be prepared to sever ALL ties with their adulterous partner.
That's ALL ties. Not just the convenient ones.
You NEED to make a choice.
You CAN go back to giving him what you promised him in the beginning. 45 days to get rid of the other woman from the apartment. And if that is not met, then you really need to make him leave.

What do you feel he will learn if you do not follow-through?
Will not following through benefit your relationship?
Considering those questions, what have you learned?
Do you feel you need to change the consequences?
What should you do NOW? And what should you do when the count down is up?
What are your goals?

He is still in MLC.
We are not their saviours, but we can help. What actions from you would facilitate his growth and development through the MLC tunnel?
Will he be more likely to grow while home with you, or if he is away?
There is not a right answer.

Personally, I feel like you gave him a condition in offering the 45 day window to get rid of her, and you should stick to it. But I also think you should not tolerate ANY excuses for not meeting this deadline.
And maybe this needs to be re-addressed with him.

I feel this way too. But what are your feelings about it? It's your decision.

You have to get to a place where you no longer fear it if you get a divorce.
Where you no longer fear him moving out again.

How do you feel about yourself?
What level is your confidence?
Will it be his loss if he leaves (on his own or because you ask him to leave)?
Do you feel that your life requires him for fulfillment?
If so, how does this affect your confidence and self-esteem?
What and Who are you without him?

If you feel that you are less without him, you will be projecting something completely different than if you feel that he will be the one losing.
You are not sliced bread, but you are God's Gift; you are prize.

I rarely questioned my H about what he was doing and where he was going...I didn't feel threatened for some reason...when I did feel doubt I would ask him...or we would talk about my feelings...he seemed to appreciate that I wasn't accusatory and snoopy.

I also did not feel threatened. And that is what I was trying to get at above. Being vulnerable is part of being Human; it is okay. But feeling threatened is indicative of something more. It reveals your self-doubts--is she really better or more fill-in-the-blank than me?
I have not felt threatened or like a jealous woman. I also have Faith and Forgive while giving my Trust as it is earned.

This isn't piecing.
This is tolerating bad behavior and not setting boundaries.
This is living in eternal hope that something will change on it's own IF you can only be patient enough.
This is living in fear of pushing him into facing his issues and making him leave again.
This is settling for second best, and being fed the crumbs when you deserve the whole pie.
Can I please ask you to be terribly selfish right now, and do something that makes YOU happy?
Can you stop worrying about him and start worrying about you and your mental health and how all of this BS is affecting you?
Can you make a decision as to what YOU are going to do at the end of this month when nothing has changed and you are still in the same place having the same conversations?

That was so well said.
Patti, I felt your MLCer came home WAY too early and thus it has not seemed like Piecing to me either. I don't think you can be Piecing until you get yourself to a place that is without Fear--until you realize that you the reward in all this is You. The reward for you is for your Self. Once you get that and absorb into your being, you will project it and others will feel you are a reward also.
Piecing takes two. We know he's not ready, but at this point, neither are you.

Set or re-set your boundaries and stick to them. Don't be afraid of the outcome just do it.

Or do it in spite of your fears.

It is the greatest mark of respect that I can give to my former happy marriage - to continue to strive to be the best person I can be.

Your marriage is worth that. You are worth it and you MLCer deserves it as well.

When others post calm and patient words, you embrace those as well. But you continue to fuss and fret and feel agitated inside.
This unrest and sadness in you will persist until you choose a path to head down and DO IT. And that's why it must be YOUR decision

I know it is not easy. We all know. But the longer you avoid deciding upon your action (even when the actions is to do nothing), the more the difficulty lingers.

Think about the doing nothing by not making a decision and fretting over the possible actions to take versus making a decision to do nothing.
What do you think is confidence level of a solid decision maker versus a worrying waffler?

I too believe my H returned too soon...

Do you really? That is interesting. I think that even those who do no return too soon may appear to have done so at times. It may be the nature of Piecing. His personal recovery and your relationship rebuilding are a new journey of Takes and Mis-Takes.

As for my time dealing with an MLC'er? Well, I guess it's been nearly a year and a half, since, despite my divorce, I still have dealings with my ex because of our boys. I'm not really sure what the significance is anyway Angelica, unless you're suggesting I'm not qualified to be dispensing advice here.

Bworl, I don't think that's what Angelica is saying at all. She walked a tightrope trying to be diplomatic while possibly expressing something others also feel. But we think you are great.

Angelica is right, there is a great disconnect when dealing with an MLCer. But I believe that disconnect is increased when the LBS lacks self-esteem and confidence, when she feels threatened and allows her Fear to be her Leader. This causes disconnection from both sides.
Is that what is happening here?
I don't know, Patti, that is something for you to consider rather than for us to answer.

Are you pushing your own buttons on any of this?
So I am curious, how much of this is your doing to yourself.

That is an excellent way to say it. I think it may be what Bworl (and others) have been saying, but this was more direct.

taking a tough stance seems like against everything i tried to change.

Tough Love is Kind. At times, stepping back and doing nothing may also be kind--but at other times it is doing an unkindness, though the intention may be kindness. Watching someone misbehave and mistreat you while doing nothing to change or stop it is not Love.

putting up with it well it hurts, i just want him to want me thats all. I want him to want to close that chapter. sometimes i think i want to tell him i love him but i cant be in love with him like this.

In MLC they may want these same things, but in the midst of the crisis, the confusion, guilt and addictions overwhelm. MLCers need to dedicate their energy to their own Selves, to their own growth, and they do not have enough left to dedicate to the relationship.
So is there something wrong with telling him that though you love him, you cannot be in love with him like this?
And think about it…is it cannot or will not? Are you able to choose? It's okay if you are if you choose to not be in love, and it is okay if you tell him.

maybe i will find a place to stay.

Just out of curiosity - why would YOU leave?
Not saying that you should, just wondering why you would.

I don't think you should even think about leaving.
If you plan on a course of action, remember actions speak louder than words.

I also cannot understand why you would even consider leaving. If someone leaves, it will be him. He needs to figure himself out and the act of leaving will help feel that the issues are his; if you leave he may feel the issues are yours.

If you plan on a course of action, remember actions speak louder than words.

Good point. When there were 20 of 45 days left, it was barely over halfway through the allotted time. I can see how it would seem nagging. And some people when nagged slow progress, which is the opposite of the nagger's desire. The nagging can make a person feel manipulated and as though you do not trust him to take action.
This is a different trust than the sort I discusses previously. This is not an emotional Trust, but trust in competence.
Since actions speak louder than words, what should you DO?
If the consequence is that he leaves if the OW is not evicted, pack a small bag for him now and put t by the front door. If he asks why you are doing it, you can tell him. But be sure to say that it is Preparation in CASE rather than Expectation. Let him know that you believe in him, you trust his judgment (whether true or not) and that you expect he will follow through with the plan.
If he claims that you are showing a lack of trust, show him that only a small portion of his belongings are packed and the vast majority are still in the closet.

Warning: Having a bag packed and available may serve as a reminder and an excuse…making it easier for him to choose to leave. He may need to leave and perhaps such a thing would be for the best. But it may not be it should play out--him choosing to leave.

Anything has got to be 100% better than continuing in this self imposed limbo.
I know you think its all conditional on what H does and that is what is keeping you in limboland.

She is right. This is a sign of attachment. You are allowing his behaviour to determine your actions or inactions rather than acting of your own accord.

it seems that when you are truly in that stage, complete openness and honesty is needed, even to the point of encouraging the betrayed spouse to snoop. The returning spouse has to PROVE that they want to win you back, not just say the words.

he did say he was sorry, he was scared...he did NOT encourage snooping and he really didn't feel that he needed to PROVE anything or that he needed to WIN me back...he said, "I wouldn't be here if I didn't want this to work."...for some they really and truly want to put what they did behind them and not recall it because of the guilt they feel...

Very few will give you a "Hollywood" ending.
Most will do very little begging and pleading.

But if they are not open to that, if pride or not wanting to feel "controlled" or whatever gets in the way, then it seems to me that they are not fully committed to re-earning your trust and building a new R.

It seems this way to you, but this is YOUR perception of someone else's behaviours. The behaviours might make perfect sense to you if you understood it from their view and were privy to their internal dialogue.
Each LBS and MLCer needs something different and will respond differently. But I want to make a comment about snooping.. I don't encourage snooping because that implies viewing without the other person's knowledge or awareness. I encourage openness instead--to the point of making it a condition of Piecing for some--officially allowed to monitor email, cell phone etc. I also think that if a person is allowed to monitor, they are also less likely to do it.
This does not work for everyone. An LBS needs to determine her threshold, because some may demand privacy. Is that a breaking point or not?

he doesn't want to talk about the sex part. all i can get is "I'm afraid" and "I'm not having sex with anyone"
we did try once last fall...it was a flop...literally.

And how do you think that affected his confidence?

We are all throwing reasons for his behaviour into a jumble. We're guessing and if wrong it could be dangerous to act on our assumptions--or perhaps it's simply normal marital communication misfires--but normal does not mean healthy. We are making assumptions based on our perceptions, our emotions, and our personal foundations.

Would any of these guesses change if you take his fears regarding potency at face value?

THE LYING IS WORSE THAN THE BETRAYAL.

So what would be different if you told/asked him to leave?

He is lying which hurts you. MLCers lie; it's going to happen. Would it be better for you if he were lying from a distance--if he went somewhere else so he could fix himself without damaging you further?

I think the more that is brought up by you, the more he will want to rebel

I agree with this because I think he is feeling nagged.

WELL IM NOT NAGGING HIM JUST STATING THE FACTS, I HEAR HIS WORDS AND SEE NOTHING HAPPENING.

And how is that not nagging?

If he feels nagged, it doesn't matter that you don't think it is nagging.

it has been stated that it takes well over a year to get over the other person.

And this timeline likely depends on the conditions. A year (approximately) from when?
When he says it's over and leaves the OW, or when he is truly out of contact with her?

Personally, I would not kick my husband out over that because I would be thankful that he is home. I would be in that prayer closet every day praying about this.

There have been times I would and times I would not--I've done both. The underlying dynamics and foundation of the situation are important factors. Kicking him out need not mean you are or were not thankful he was home. It does not mean you regret letting him move home. Tough Love has different and sometimes opposite responses.

Expect that there will be calls in the beginning but he must be very open with Patti

Great if he were honest - but he wasn't.

So let's rephrase what Steelers said then.
In the beginning, expect there may be lies and he may not be ready for openness.
MLCers often return broken, and testing the LBS is part of the return process.

I totally agree that Patti has to do what she thinks is right - but this is no where near piecing - it's more like H taking the piss.

No, he is not Piecing.
A Returner who is Piecing may not apologize or even openly admit sin. BUT there is a recognition that the damage will not be repaired merely through his presence. There is a recognition of the need for healing and that such a thing takes Time. The pain is not simply forgotten, and tossed in the closet that has an entrance and no exit, where all the skeletons are stored. Burying such pain yielded this crisis, doing the same thing again will not resolve the damage.

WELL THATS THE PART THAT BUGS ME...ALL THESE OTHER H'S DONT SEEM TO HAVE THAT PROBLEM, WHEN THEY COME HOME.

Not ALL.
Though I said No because we needed to be tested and to have time to Heal, sex was slow to come (Oh man, I didn't mean to say it that way!), and infrequent after that.

That's the one thing that makes me think he still sees the OW

ME TOO BUT HE SWEARS UP AND DOWN HE ISNT...HE SAYS WE ARE GONNA MAKE IT. NO HES NOT LEAVING...HE LOVES ME WITH OUT A DOUBT.

It's cause for wondering, I agree.
But have you talked to him about being intimate? And what was his reaction?
He's afraid
But have you expressed how the lack of intimacy affects you and is hurting your relationship?

Maybe he is ashamed at not being able to perform sexually, so he came home where it was "safe?"

An interesting insight.

If E.D. is the problem, he could get help for it. But if he hasn't worked through MLC, then what?

Personally, I feel he is still in MLC. But MLCers can have ED. (I bet we wish more of them did.)

But whether it's E.D. or not being finished with MLC or being a cake-eater, the bottom line is that it seems he's not being completely honest.

Shame may override honesty. He stated very directly that he was afraid.

most men would want to satisfy their partner in some fashion.

We focus (naturally) on how things affect us and feel to us--on our perceptions and then we interpret events and behaviours accordingly.

he has proven himself dishonest more than honest so far. I have seen no effort by him to try and show Patti in any meaningful way that he is being above board; all he does is get defensive- that just stinks to me.

It stinks to me too. But that is TO ME--from my perception.
I'm not trying to defend him--really. But what we do not know is why he is being dishonest. It may be due to Shame/Guilt or to hide cheating or something else.
As for getting defensive, he said he is afraid. Why? Suppose it is a combination of Guilt and Shame which may be yielding some ED. I'd get defensive too; Shame can yield such a reaction. It is a reminder of his embarrassment.

Try and take the focus off what you do not have and build on what is good. Do you have more positives than negatives?

Well said.
Patti, You've said that his resolve to stay is strong and that he so doesn't act MLC, except for this issue..the rest of the time he's as normal as can be.
That SOUNDS as though the positives are good. But you don't sound as though things are positive. You do not sound happy, you sound more frustrated.
His resolve to stay: is this referencing his physical presence and nothing else?
If so, he's an MLCer who is living out the crisis from home. In such a case, you are expectations are WAY too high and you are not Piecing. But you may have an MLCer who is no longer physically cheating (maybe). Look for threads by wishingitwasover in the archives. If this is the case, I vote with Steelers (if you can handle such conditions).
But whar if he's MLC and in a physical relationship--or continuing the affair emotionally? What if he acts out more and tests you?
How should your responses differ?
How should your responses differ if his lies are out of shame versus to hide cheating/contact?

When he can tell her it was a horrible mistake and never should have happened well then well have something.....

But understand that CAN does not mean WILL. And he may never be able to tell he that; instead use his feelings as your measurement.
Future: Does he feel it was a mistake even if he could not bring himself to tell the OW.

I say that he must show you, his wife the respect of severing all communication with OW.

Must is an way of saying should with an absolute. I don't think it's that people will disagree. We all think he should, but will leads the way.
Where there's a will there's way, where there's a should some will stray.

Patti,

I don't have an answer to what you should do. I printed this thread last week and have been reading and writing in my spare time (what spare time!). I don't want to give my opinion directly, but then when I think about it, I've flipped as I read the responses. My opinion varies according to the true nature of the situation--the conditions minus all of our perceptions. But my opinion I also irrelevant.

What are you able to handle? It doesn't make you a bad wife if you feel you cannot handle him at home and ask him to leave. If you cannot handle it, the situation may become worse whereas it may eventually improve with distance. If you can handle it, should you? There are no correct answers here. Both scenarios have lead to reconciliation.

But I do feel you've got to take care of yourself first. A marriage cannot thrive otherwise. If this means you need to change the conditions and boundaries, then do it. But you need to be able to explain your reasons to him, otherwise he tested you and you caved.

You are in my prayers.

[sgctxok]

My goodness what a long post!

"Warning: Having a bag packed and available may serve as a reminder and an excuse…making it easier for him to choose to leave. He may need to leave and perhaps such a thing would be for the best. But it may not be it should play out--him choosing to leave. "


This could be construed as an act of war as well. Don't do it.

You have received sooooooo much advice here. Whatever you do, it should be of YOUR design, YOUR style and YOUR conviction.... if it is to WORK.