PDT - I guess I am trying to believe her when she tells me she is not flirting and doesn't see it that way.
But you witnessed it with your own eyes.
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Part of trusting her to me would be to believe that she has no romantic interest and is just wanting friendship from other adults right now.
You seem to want to harmlessly fold in the man with whom she's admittedly had an emotional affair, with the general group of "other adults". There are what now, 6.7 billion people in the world? There's only ONE (maybe two, if you count the wife) with whom it's not healthy for her to have a friendship with right now. That doesn't seem so unreasonable to us.
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If we are going to make this work again though, don't I have to regain that trust?
You have it backwards, Mules. SHE needs to regain YOUR trust, and hanging out in the yard and openly flirting with her shirtless next door neighbor is not a good way to do it EVEN IF you weren't insisting upon it!
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And if she sees that trust from me wouldn't it have a positive effect?
If her behavior is worthy of your trust, then yes, it probably would. If her behavior is NOT worthy of your trust, and if her and your neighbor are not being truthful with you about the nature of their relationship, then this would probably have a NEGATIVE effect: naivete isn't very attractive, nor does it command respect.
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I'm not afraid of her getting angry anymore. I was a month ago when I thought anything I did would upset her and make her want to leave.
You SAY that, Mules, but then even when presented with some pretty compelling stuff -- stuff to which you AGREE -- you keep saying "I don't want to mess things up right now." That sounds to me like someone who thinks:
a) If I do/say thus-and-such, she will get angry.
b) If she gets angry, it will screw up my progress with her.
What you SAY you understand, and the threats which you claim to understand, simply don't match up with your actions.
PDT - I guess I am trying to believe her when she tells me she is not flirting and doesn't see it that way.
But you witnessed it with your own eyes.
Quote:
Part of trusting her to me would be to believe that she has no romantic interest and is just wanting friendship from other adults right now.
You seem to want to harmlessly fold in the man with whom she's admittedly had an emotional affair, with the general group of "other adults". There are what now, 6.7 billion people in the world? There's only ONE (maybe two, if you count the wife) with whom it's not healthy for her to have a friendship with right now. That doesn't seem so unreasonable to us.
Quote:
If we are going to make this work again though, don't I have to regain that trust?
You have it backwards, Mules. SHE needs to regain YOUR trust, and hanging out in the yard and openly flirting with her shirtless next door neighbor is not a good way to do it EVEN IF you weren't insisting upon it!
Quote:
And if she sees that trust from me wouldn't it have a positive effect?
If her behavior is worthy of your trust, then yes, it probably would. If her behavior is NOT worthy of your trust, and if her and your neighbor are not being truthful with you about the nature of their relationship, then this would probably have a NEGATIVE effect: naivete isn't very attractive, nor does it command respect.
Quote:
I'm not afraid of her getting angry anymore. I was a month ago when I thought anything I did would upset her and make her want to leave.
You SAY that, Mules, but then even when presented with some pretty compelling stuff -- stuff to which you AGREE -- you keep saying "I don't want to mess things up right now." That sounds to me like someone who thinks:
a) If I do/say thus-and-such, she will get angry.
b) If she gets angry, it will screw up my progress with her.
What you SAY you understand, and the threats which you claim to understand, simply don't match up with your actions.
PDT - You're right. Thanks for staying on my a$$ about this. I have an hour train ride home to figure out how to handle. She got a new job today. Will start a week from Monday. Just called me all excited.
PS - The shirtless thing was in my favor - believe me, it was not a pretty sight!
M 43 W 44 M 17 T 22 S16,12,9 Bomb 2/05/08 I served her 1/06/09 S'd 3/15/09 D'd 12/21/09
"Tough times don't last, tough people do." --My Dad to me years ago, me to my boys now.
You take it back and run it through your own personal filter of BEING there and LIVING what has happened.
Neither of us want you to get burned and feel a fool.
But I'm pretty sure that neither of us want you to undo any positive progress that's been/being made either.
For my part I would say to keep these thoughts in mind. I am convinced that if it were me, I would be minimizing contact with this guy, even if my wife bristled at it.
But I would be inclined to try to replace that couple with other couples that we could socialize with.
Do what YOU know is the right thing to do.
Bill
"Don't tell me the sky is the limit when there are footprints on the moon."
Bill - Thanks so much. I really can't believe how fortunate I am to have found this site. I was lurking for a while before I posted. Everyone here is really great. What an unbelievable support system for people going through such terrible events.
I understand what you guys are trying to do. I spoke to my W this morning and we have a pretty busy weekend planned, so contact should be pretty minimal. Today's posts + MC last night have given me a lot of food for thought.
My thinking was that if we improved our sitch she would gradually come back to the person that her entire family was in awe of. Her parents and aunt are devastated by this as she has completely shut them out. She says she can't take them because all they try to do is tell her how to do things. She has left a lot of carnage here and when she awakes from whatever she is in, she will be devastated. Our neighbors are people she would normally stay an ocean away from. That's what is so puzzling, but after reading the books it makes some sense. I'm not going to do anything drastic tonight. Thanks for talking me off the ledge. But you guys have made me aware that my tolerance needs to be at zero and that I will make her aware of.
M 43 W 44 M 17 T 22 S16,12,9 Bomb 2/05/08 I served her 1/06/09 S'd 3/15/09 D'd 12/21/09
"Tough times don't last, tough people do." --My Dad to me years ago, me to my boys now.
I don't have much to add here, except that much of what you write is what I wrote whenI was in your place:
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My thinking was that if we improved our sitch she would gradually come back to the person that her entire family was in awe of. Her parents and aunt are devastated by this as she has completely shut them out. She says she can't take them because all they try to do is tell her how to do things. She has left a lot of carnage here and when she awakes from whatever she is in, she will be devastated.
That bolt of lightening from above...that morning we wait for...when they wake up and say 'oh honey I was all wrong, I love you'....is not coming...or if it is, not the way we as men dream of. You must be prepared to accept something new and different should she decide to reconcile with you...or give your M a go again.
I don't want to beat a dead horse, but, as PDT quoted, it is SHE who must do the work to regain trust. Try new things..new places to go..etc...to find other places to be than near the neighbor next door. Unless you've seen it firsthand, people will do the most horrible things to 'cover their tracks' or make you think they are on YOUR side while they continue to do things that cross marital boundaries.
Keep the changes up if they are working. Don't advertise them. Re-invent yourself as a person/man. Don't trust the neighbor.
Stay strong. FIB
Me 55; XW 47; 2 kids (S13, D11) Bomb 05/19/06 Original thread http://tinyurl.com/yg2ou2t Last anniversary 04/25/10, Divorced 5/12/10 Status: Loving father of 2 beautiful children;
FIB - What a great post - thank you. Although she has given me that speech twice now - I have come to the realization finally that it is very possible that this is how my W will be for the forseeable future. That's ok by me. I am going to just keep working on the M as is. Our motto is and continues to be "Baby Steps". At times that's hard because I feel closer to her, but I know if this is going to work, it has to be slow.
We had a good weekend - all positives, just different levels of positive. The neighbor's W kind of invited herself over on Friday night when we were eating pizza. Saturday was the day. My youngest son had a night baseball game scheduled that he really wanted to go to. My W wanted to tell him it was canceled so we could go to dinner with the neighbors. It got to the point where I said that I don't want to do that. I told her that she should go with the neighbors to dinner and I'll take the boys to the game and then for dinner. Much to my delight, she said "no way, I'm not going without you". So I said if we could get her parents or Aunt over than I would go to dinner so my son wouldn't miss his game. So she called her aunt and she came over. Here's where it gets unbelievable.
I get ready for dinner and my W is running a little late, so she asks me to call the neighbors to see if they are ready. I call and the W answers. I ask her if she is ready and she says no. I ask her if everything is ok and she says no and that they wouldn't be coming tonight. I asked her again if everything was ok and she said it was a tough day. So I hang up and tell my W and fully expect her to cancel. She matter of factly said ok, we'll still go. I was very excited and went out to the car. She comes out to the car and she really looked beautiful, in the old days I would have gushed over her and she would have been smiling ear-to-ear. I just made a point of telling her she looked very pretty and she said thank you. Anyway we are driving about 6 or 7 minutes and my cell phone rings. It's my neighbor. He is practically in tears. He tells me he is going to divorce his wife, he can't take it anymore. He said she keeps disrespecting his family and that now she talks to him like one of her inmates (she works in a prison). He said he just called his lawyer. He said that he is filing on Monday. I told him to calm down and don't make decisions like that when he is so angry. While I am talking to him - his W calls my W on her cell (I thought I have seen this in a movie!). She's telling my W the she knows her husband is bad mouthing her right now but there are 3 sides to every story (I guess she meant her side, her H's side and the truth!). My W tells her not to worry that I (meaning me) would never judge them and that i was just listening and trying to calm her H down. We both get off the phone and I look at my W. She says - that maybe we should go back and try to help. So we did. (I still can't believe I did - I was out and now i get pulled right back in!). I go in and try to make them both laugh. I end up going upstairs with H and talk to him. I got him laughing and convinced him to get dressed so the 4 of us could go out. He ended up doing that. We had a decent time - he got drunk and was his obnoxious self. I noticed that my W was trying to be very careful with any kind of flirting. When we got home she asked me if I thought she was good with that. I asked her what she thought and she said she thought she was appropriate. I said that I agreed. When we went to bed she apologized that we went back as that was 2 nights in a row with them. I told her it was ok, they really needed our help. She thanked me. Throughout the night the N kept telling me that he wanted to have us over on Sunday for ribs. My W said no that she was going to cook for our family. I will give my W credit she stuck to her guns and cooked. The neighor's W called on Sunday and said she bought a bunch of ribs for all of us. My W turned her down and said that she was making sauce for her family. So there were a lot of positives. I'm sure there are some negatives in there too, that I don't see right now. My neighbor called me yesterday to thank me for coming to help them. He said if I didn't come back he was going to file and kick her out of the house.
Anyway, that's where we are. i still feel very strong and hope I am making good decisions. I will continue to work on myself, and hope this works out. If it doesn't I will be ok...I think!
M 43 W 44 M 17 T 22 S16,12,9 Bomb 2/05/08 I served her 1/06/09 S'd 3/15/09 D'd 12/21/09
"Tough times don't last, tough people do." --My Dad to me years ago, me to my boys now.
FIB - What a great post - thank you. Although she has given me that speech twice now - I have come to the realization finally that it is very possible that this is how my W will be for the forseeable future. That's ok by me. I am going to just keep working on the M as is. Our motto is and continues to be "Baby Steps". At times that's hard because I feel closer to her, but I know if this is going to work, it has to be slow.
We had a good weekend - all positives, just different levels of positive. The neighbor's W kind of invited herself over on Friday night when we were eating pizza. Saturday was the day. My youngest son had a night baseball game scheduled that he really wanted to go to. My W wanted to tell him it was canceled so we could go to dinner with the neighbors. It got to the point where I said that I don't want to do that. I told her that she should go with the neighbors to dinner and I'll take the boys to the game and then for dinner. Much to my delight, she said "no way, I'm not going without you". So I said if we could get her parents or Aunt over than I would go to dinner so my son wouldn't miss his game. So she called her aunt and she came over. Here's where it gets unbelievable.
I get ready for dinner and my W is running a little late, so she asks me to call the neighbors to see if they are ready. I call and the W answers. I ask her if she is ready and she says no. I ask her if everything is ok and she says no and that they wouldn't be coming tonight. I asked her again if everything was ok and she said it was a tough day. So I hang up and tell my W and fully expect her to cancel. She matter of factly said ok, we'll still go. I was very excited and went out to the car. She comes out to the car and she really looked beautiful, in the old days I would have gushed over her and she would have been smiling ear-to-ear. I just made a point of telling her she looked very pretty and she said thank you. Anyway we are driving about 6 or 7 minutes and my cell phone rings. It's my neighbor. He is practically in tears. He tells me he is going to divorce his wife, he can't take it anymore. He said she keeps disrespecting his family and that now she talks to him like one of her inmates (she works in a prison). He said he just called his lawyer. He said that he is filing on Monday. I told him to calm down and don't make decisions like that when he is so angry. While I am talking to him - his W calls my W on her cell (I thought I have seen this in a movie!). She's telling my W the she knows her husband is bad mouthing her right now but there are 3 sides to every story (I guess she meant her side, her H's side and the truth!). My W tells her not to worry that I (meaning me) would never judge them and that i was just listening and trying to calm her H down. We both get off the phone and I look at my W. She says - that maybe we should go back and try to help. So we did. (I still can't believe I did - I was out and now i get pulled right back in!). I go in and try to make them both laugh. I end up going upstairs with H and talk to him. I got him laughing and convinced him to get dressed so the 4 of us could go out. He ended up doing that. We had a decent time - he got drunk and was his obnoxious self. I noticed that my W was trying to be very careful with any kind of flirting. When we got home she asked me if I thought she was good with that. I asked her what she thought and she said she thought she was appropriate. I said that I agreed. When we went to bed she apologized that we went back as that was 2 nights in a row with them. I told her it was ok, they really needed our help. She thanked me. Throughout the night the N kept telling me that he wanted to have us over on Sunday for ribs. My W said no that she was going to cook for our family. I will give my W credit she stuck to her guns and cooked. The neighor's W called on Sunday and said she bought a bunch of ribs for all of us. My W turned her down and said that she was making sauce for her family. So there were a lot of positives. I'm sure there are some negatives in there too, that I don't see right now. My neighbor called me yesterday to thank me for coming to help them. He said if I didn't come back he was going to file and kick her out of the house.
Anyway, that's where we are. i still feel very strong and hope I am making good decisions. I will continue to work on myself, and hope this works out. If it doesn't I will be ok...I think!
Good lord. NO, you're NOT making good decisions, Mules!
LOSE THE NEIGHBORS -- WORK ON YOUR MARRIAGE. Do ya THINK that maybe it might've been a better decision to go see your own son's baseball game, and not LIE to him about it being canceled, than to get caught up in your neighbor's drama???
Sorry for the sarcasm -- I'm just at a loss for words here.
I don't think they lied about cancelling the game, unless I'm misreading this. The Aunt came over so son could go to his game.
And while I share your concerns with all this wonderful involvement with a set of neighbors who are CLEARLY bad for your marital health, Mule has made it clear that they are going to continue being socially involved with the. He is confident that there is nothing to be worried about.
We'll cross our fingers and hope that he is not sadly surprised one day.
Mule,
You still need to get your wife on board with your sons.
I consider it extremely selfish to value plans for the two of you over a ball game that your son was already commited to.
Ball games take a couple hours. You two could have gone out ANY time before or after.
Your wife wants the FUN stuff. She doesn't want the WORK of the relationship.
By the way, that's why the neighbor was appealing. FUN stuff, no responsibility.
Don't for a minute be deceived into thinking everything is just jim dandy at your house.
Bill
"Don't tell me the sky is the limit when there are footprints on the moon."
Puppy - In trying to shorten the length of the post - I wasn't clear. We didn't lie to him. My W's aunt took him to his game. I told my W the only way I would go to dinner was if he went to his game and we had a family member there with him. I ended up asking him if he was ok with that and he said it was fine. He asked me to take him to his game on Sunday. That's what I did. I would never lie to him so I could go do something for myself. Never.
M 43 W 44 M 17 T 22 S16,12,9 Bomb 2/05/08 I served her 1/06/09 S'd 3/15/09 D'd 12/21/09
"Tough times don't last, tough people do." --My Dad to me years ago, me to my boys now.
