And in any event, my main point was that regardless of where you come down on the whole "princess" thing, I felt that Bill's advice swung WAY too far into ndsm. not focusing on himself, and wasn't very "DB".
God, write it on the calendar: Puppy's preaching DB, lol.
And I couldn't disagree with you more, GIVEN the circumstances that nds has shared.
You did read the part about how he's been a perpetual [censored] to his wife and family for all these years.
Where in his story did you read anything about his wife abusing him?
No, in this case, ndsmhlp has some really abhorrent behavior to make up for. If he wants a shot and changing her mind, he better become the man who values his wife more than himself.
From a biblical perspective, MEN have a huge responsibility regarding wives and children. And it is certainly the case where we are to sacrifice to make sure that their needs are met.
If ndsmhlp (dang, you need a different name, that is TOO hard to type each time) had been receiving crap from his wife, if she was cheating on him, if she was leaving for selfish reasons, then I would be inclined to lean more in your direction.
Bill
"Don't tell me the sky is the limit when there are footprints on the moon."
That is, if a man treats his wife as a princess, that it, over time, may cause her to lose respect for him.
Again, in NORMAL circumstances I would agree that this is a concern.
Given NDS's treatment of his wife, as HE described, his current treatment of her is warranted and necessary.
Look, don't misunderstand me. Read some of my other posts around this board and you will see that THIS is not my typical advice to men who have wives who want to leave.
NDS's sitch very closely parallels mine in that I did not treat my wife like the gift from God that she was. I didn't quite treat her the way NDS is, but I did not show that I valued and cherished her.
I think that's what NDS is doing now.
And no, I don't expect him to literally sacrifice himself in the service of a woman who treats him like a doormat. That would be ridiculous and I'd be one of the first to stand in line and advise him to stop it.
She is NOT doing that.
She is LOVING their interactions.
Because he is being fun. Non-critical. Happy. Delighting in her.
All of these things are good.
And I don't see NDS suffering for any of this.
Yes, he would like some positive feedback right now. Frankly, I don't think he deserves to even ask for it right now. Maybe in a few more months. Maybe when things settle down a bit for them and life returns a bit to normal.
Right now his role should be to provide and serve. He must PROVE that he is really changing this time.
I think we actually are in agreement. Maybe the word "princess" bothers you and carries a conotation that I'm not thinking of.
I'm simply saying that he needs to cherish and treasure her, and that all his actions should scream out to her that he is doing just that.
His frustration and fear of her leaving is something that he just needs to find a way to deal with right now.
Bill
"Don't tell me the sky is the limit when there are footprints on the moon."
I think you've honed in on the source of our disagreement. I simply did not come away from his description of his past behavior with the feeling that he was anything much more than a little smothering or hypercritical. I see self-flagellation here that's largely of his own making, and I'll admit that that assessment could be entirely wrong on my part. If he truly has been a horrible husband, and a jackass, then I'd be inclined to lean more toward your approach, although I still think you take it too far when you say for him to TOTALLY focus on her, and I also still have a problem with "princesses" (but that could be my issue, I'll readily admit, since I'm married to a world-class Princess).
My approach is also one of efficacy, in that I think women, by and large, lose respect over time if their husband totally dotes on them and treats them like a princess. It can lead to some great, world-class FRIENDSHIPS, but I don't think it makes for a healthy marital sexual dynamic. (see "NMMNG" for a better description of this dynamic than I can give it).
I was, indeed, surprised by your advice, as I have read a lot of your other advice, which is strong and tough and yet loving.
I've just re-read all of NDS' posts on this thread, and I guess he'll have to elaborate further on his past behavior, because I'm still not seeing it. (Did his wife NEEDS not get met financially? He just said "wants")
I know that a LOT of betrayed spouses assign blame to themselves, and moral equivalency -- unfairly. I've been coming at this from the perspective that NDS is doing that. Again, I could be wrong.
I'm still also not so sure that there hasn't at least been an EA along the way, although I dropped that angle since NDS was comfortable that there was no infidelity.
Anyway, enough of the hijack; I hope that clarifies to you -- and more importantly, to NDS -- where I'm coming from.
First, my wife. Late 30's..a truly good hearted person, hard worker, wonderful mother.
Would give you the shirt off her back.
She will never try to be someone she is not.
Not a person who worries an awful lot about things, always figures somehow it will all work out.
Loves to entertain, but does not have the house to do it in.
A very social person that everyone loves when they get to know her.
A beautiful woman with a heart of gold.
His description of his behavior:
Quote:
mid 40's...early on being married and having the family responsibilities took a toll on me.
I worried about our future, money etc., so much that I think I never focused on the present.
I became this critical over bearing husband / father...never letting up.
She just could not do anything right.
Got us into a house that I knew she did not like because it was the easy way out.
I know now that most times she wished I would not come home at night so she didn't have to listen to the griping and complaining...whether it was about something she or my daughter did, or work or something else.
I have always been a some what insecure person and I felt insecurity in our marriage. I blamed her.
Somehow I thought the fact that I worried about these things every minute of the day and wanted to know where she was and where she was going and when she would be home proved my love.
All I was doing was smothering her.
She just closed up and put up with it...maybe drank a little too much to ease the hurt, which I was constantly on her case about.
Even when I was better and not such a "bastard", I was still so critical of her every move. Constructive Criticism I called it.
His own acknowledgement after his wife's 3rd request to end the marriage:
Quote:
It has been about 4 weeks since she opened up to me, and when she told me, a sort of calm came over me. No crying, no begging for another chance, no apologies. I knew it was the wrong thing to do. How could I keep putting her through this? Maybe it really was time to just let this poor girl go and be happy, away from me??
NDS, you tell me. Maybe I misinterpreted because of the connection I feel with your sitch.
The picture I got was of a man who was overbearing, overcritical, rarely happy, but thought working his job and paying the bills was fulfilling his role as father and husband.
You made it seem as though your home was not a happy place to be in when you were there.
The impression I got was of a broken woman, who simply could no longer tolerate being beaten down by a man who could find little good in anything.
So my advice was what it was.
If I was wrong, let me know.
Bill
"Don't tell me the sky is the limit when there are footprints on the moon."
What a discussion. I LOVE this kind of discussion......because it's respectful and USEFUL....and describes the different perspectives for an ACTASIF.
I kind of agree with both of you (omg)---
I think Bill has honed in on ndsm's WORDS and Puppy is honing in on the connotation, the SENSE we get from him. We don't know what the actual case is from his W's perspective.
Men are called not to love their wives unconditionally (that's agape, God's love), nor to treat them like princesses, but to LOVE THEM AS CHRIST LOVES THE CHURCH, even to the point of laying down their lives.
"25. Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her 26. to make her holy, cleansing her by the washing with water through the word, 27. and to present her to himself as a radiant church, without stain or wrinkle or any other blemish, but holy and blameless. 28. In this same way, husbands ought to love their wives as their own bodies. He who loves his wife loves himself. 29. After all, no one ever hated his own body, but he feeds and cares for it, just as Christ does the church- 30. for we are members of his body. 31. “For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and the two will become one flesh.” 32. This is a profound mystery-but I am talking about Christ and the church. 33. However, each one of you also must love his wife as he loves himself...
....
Colossians - Chapter 3:19
19. Husbands, love your wives and do not be harsh with them."
So be really GOOD to your wife. Take care of her. Treat her sweetly, don't be harsh. But, Puppy has a great point about the princess thing. There's a sillyness about that, something that lends itself to worship of the wife.
NDSM---
What can you tells us about what your WIFE thinks about some of these things?
sg
sg Love is PATIENT, love is KIND, LOVE never fails / DB since 2001
I do think some of our disagreement centered on the use of the word "Princess."
Let me be clear that I certainly was not advocating that NDS begin exalting his wife over him as some type of object to be worshipped.
I was writing, albeit perhaps too passionately, about the exact verses that SG just quoted. We ARE called to love our wives as Christ loves the church.
That means their well being is considered, even before our own occassionally.
That means there is certainly a bit of self sacrifice involved at times, much as Christ was willing to give His life to save ours.
That means we have a strong desire to edify and build them up, helping them to become all that they can be.
In my interpretation, NDS felt as though he had done little to none of this through much of their marriage.
Now, realizing the type of man he had been and what that did to this woman that he now knows he treasures, he seemed to indicate that he desired to show her just how deep his love for her was.
I think that's what they've been doing together with all these nights of fun and passion. And I think it's an amazing and wonderful thing. Just look at how she is responding to being FED spiritually and emotionally by her husband.
He's rightfully worried still about where all this is leading. Are his changes having an effect? More importantly, are his changes causing her to reconsider?
And my response to that is, can you just walk a while longer with that attitude of "who cares?" I think he's doing wonderful things for his wife. Yet he's still scared that he will lose her eventually, and I understand that.
My advice would be to proceed as though she means what she says. And yet proceed as a man who is driven to convince her over how ever much time they have left, that he has found his problem, fixed his problem, and is determined to not take her for granted again.
Then we'll see what happens.
Bill
"Don't tell me the sky is the limit when there are footprints on the moon."
