Bwrol has me thinking.. I am not sure if thats good or bad..
Anyway..
"Again I'll just say that to me, your heart is in the exact right place at this moment in time. Honestly."
I agree to a point. I think that your "heart" wanders because you just don't know what else to do. You become something that tries to "fix" the situation. I think even the WAS Syndrome is to be looked at the same way. They both tried. They both failed. One wants to try and stay together.. the other wants to create a new life. Either way they are fixing something within themselves.. the best way they know how. I am sure their hearts are still in it.. their focus has just changed dramatically.
"Once a spouse decides to leave, all bets are off. When they have set their minds to be done with the marriage, our ability to influence them directly is severely curtailed. At that point I firmly believe that we have one last shot"
Well lets not sugar coat this.. but she has said she was going to leave 3 times now. T has not really indicated that she ever has.. or I missed it. So that says to me 1 of 2 things.. either she is really trying to find herself.. or she dosen't follow thru on things. I tend to lean towards she is looking for herself. So that tells me I am missing something that she has been doing. While this is a odd situation T is in.. there are quite a few holes or gaps. Maybe she is perfect..
"This woman loved you once. She can be moved to love you again. You have an advantage - she has already fallen in love with you once, married you, had children with you. You are her history.
Show her what she fell in love with again. BECOME that man again, and never change from that, and I think your outlook is good."
That I will agree with. I say it a little different.. but the thought is exactly the same.
Again.. this is just my thoughts but I am really looking at the gaps.. or what she did. When someone stands up and says I did it all.. it was all me.. my ears tingle a bit.
Relax Eat Think Act normal React.. Smartly. Do something different. Emulate. Do Work.
Is it wrong to WANT to feel some assurance from her? I am NOT pushing and I am NOT pursuing...
I absolutely do NOT think it's wrong to WANT some assurance. But let's face it, if you ask her, you already know what she'll say. So what else is there? To me, you keep working at this better you, you strive for consistency in the new you, you continue to show how much you value her.....and, unfortunately, you do that with no real way of knowing if her intentions are changing.
I'll say this about what FG said, the fact that she has changed her mind twice before indicates, TO ME, that she held on strongly to the hope of a better relationship between the two of you for quite some time.
You may now be dealing with a woman who, INTERNALLY, has chastised herself into making the break, realizing that she has backed out of leaving twice before. And really, any time you've given someone MORE than one chance and the let you down, don't you dig your heels in a bit more on the next chance?
It's not a great situation for the one who has some making up to do. From my view you have to find a way to be comfortable in that uncomfortable position of loving a person knowing that they may choose to make the break at some point.
Really NDS, what is the loss? If you are truly treating her NOW the way you know you should have always treated her, there WILL be a positive payoff regardless. I know, the thought of divorce is incredibly devastating. But being on the divorced side of things, there is definitely something to be said for having made positive changes in ME that led to a peaceful and amiable post-divorce relationship with my ex.
I'm sure your wife is not perfect. I'm sure she has had some issues that weren't the greatest all the time. But I'm guessing that her "problems" were more of the little imperfection variety that our love is usually more than able to overcome.
I still see this situation as strongly positive right now.
Maybe it's up to you to move to the next stage. To move both of you back a bit towards normalcy, and show your wife that life will be good and rewarding there also.
Blessings,
Bill
"Don't tell me the sky is the limit when there are footprints on the moon."
Bill You have pretty much summed it up. Those have been my thoughts and goals all along. The crazy stuff we have been doing has gotten in the way, and has been fun, but I will move on to my goals and the things that I promised her. Whether I am with her or not.
I will be watching her as closely and she is watching me. I believe I can maintain without all of the "peak days", but I wonder how she will react to a more normal pace.
I am directing this to you guys because you had so much input the last couple of days.
I know during this whole process I am supposed to keep an eye out for positive signs...in my situation, I think you can understand there is that constant confusion for me. We go out, have fun and basically spend all of our free time together...and I get the occasional reminder about not getting my hopes up.
Your comments about trying to get back on track and be the one to initiate a return to normalcy were things that were already on my mind, as I said.
Yesterday we had dinner with her relatives...a few beers, some good conversation......SHE texted me and asked if I wanted to go with her.
Keep in mind, previously I had passed up these family days so many times that she had completely stopped asking me if I would like to come along......one of her family members commented about how good it was to have me along for a change....I was the old me...joking, making people laugh....I can be a clown when I want....W was actually giggling at me..LOL
We were exhausted when we got home and she was quiet....went to bed before me. I let her have some space, but felt a little coldness.....just my imagination, I think, because she woke up this morning bright cheery. I made breakfast for the two of us and we relaxed and chatted for a while this morning.
I had planned all along today to just get out and do some work around the house, and let her go about whatever it was she was going to do with her day, and that is what I did.
Funny thing is, when she was done doing some laundry and housework, guess where she ended up?? Out with me, helping with the yardwork I was doing....she ended up letting the things go that she was doing and stayed out me with until I was finished.
Guess where she is now? Out getting something to make for dinner. She asked me what I wanted, because she felt like cooking us a nice meal.
Not that we have not been having fun, but today was different. Positive and normal.....feels good, but I am not getting my hopes up...LOL
While I still don't feel I have a firm grasp on why a WAS thinks leaving is a solution.. I will say this.
The WAS is twisting and turning just as much as the LBS. They have all the same thoughts and feelings that we do. With women and possibly men WAS they have for so long pushed the feelings down inside.. that it becomes natural to seem like they don't "feel" anything. This is where I think the "Alien" talk comes from. I noticed fairly early on in my stitch that the "Alien" talk never seemed to have any real meaning.. its not something you would normally say in a conversation. I think this is why DB says to ignore it.. it has a second impact if you ignore it.. in that you don't get caught up in it. You don't let it bring you down.
Any WAS is looking for "something" better. They don't really know what but they are looking. You becoming more like you were can bring back those feelings the WAS once had. In doing that your chances of changing things dramatically increases. The trick to it all is to make that change permanent and not fall back into what you were. This is where the Mind of a Beginner comes from. You really are starting over to a point. You have to start from scratch and build "something". The big key in my mind is communication. You have to open the lines up so you can talk openly. The hard part is you are still fighting all the stuff the WAS is holding against you. You are the only one that is starting from scratch. You starting from scratch we will call.. True Giving.
You with me so far?
"Yesterday we had dinner with her relatives...a few beers, some good conversation......SHE texted me and asked if I wanted to go with her."
Ok.. so she is seeking you out.. this is a good thing. What you need to pay attention to is why she is doing this.. and what you are doing to encourage it.
".one of her family members commented about how good it was to have me along for a change....I was the old me...joking, making people laugh....I can be a clown when I want....W was actually giggling at me..LOL"
So you notice that she is paying attention to you. She can see you and at the same time she might be asking herself.. Why can't he be like this all the time. Remember you have let her down twice now.
"We were exhausted when we got home and she was quiet....went to bed before me. I let her have some space, but felt a little coldness.....just my imagination, I think, because she woke up this morning bright cheery."
Now you see where you felt that coldness.. this is what I was talking about the other day. Even something on your mind can show up where the other person feels it. This is what I think you are fighting a little bit. I really think she can sense the "Craziness" going on inside your head. (Don't be offended.. I use "Crazy" to describe a lot of things)
I think you are on the right track.. Something you are doing is working. You really need to look at what is working beyond.. partying. You need to look at your mannerisms, your thoughts, your speech.. when things are going well and when they are not. Then compare how you were in each situation. To be honest my gut tells me just keep doing what you are doing.. then there is this little part that says be careful. This situation you are in could go bad quick. Its just really hard to give any solid advice in this situation because it does not fit the "norm".
I mean lets look at it this way.. maybe you read DB and have implemented 100%. You are doing it flawlessly.
Relax Eat Think Act normal React.. Smartly. Do something different. Emulate. Do Work.
You have to start from scratch and build "something". The big key in my mind is communication. You have to open the lines up so you can talk openly. The hard part is you are still fighting all the stuff the WAS is holding against you. You are the only one that is starting from scratch. You starting from scratch we will call.. True Giving.
My question there is when and how do I open those lines of communication? I am still, at this point, waiting for her to give some positive verbal communication that she is willing, correct?
Now you see where you felt that coldness.. this is what I was talking about the other day. Even something on your mind can show up where the other person feels it. This is what I think you are fighting a little bit. I really think she can sense the "Craziness" going on inside your head. (Don't be offended.. I use "Crazy" to describe a lot of things)
I do believe that was my imagination. This just goes back to my being so insecure about this whole mess.....and greedy. I want it all....
Look at all the time spent together and all we have been doing. I give her the time when she wants it, as little as she does ask.....but in my mind it's grudgingly.....I AM crazy, so no offense taken. I want to be with her 24/7....never let her out of sight....and if she senses that, she is not fighting it very hard, is she???
She had the chance to go with a girlfriend the other night and stayed with me. I am at a point where I would like to see her do more without me so that I can prove to her that the smothering, insecure person I am...was?...won't be anymore??...is going away.
I forget where she was going one night, but she asked me if "I was going to be mad if she went?"....sad, but that was how things were for her all those years.....smothering.
Well.. the rule for DB ing is for them to come to you on it. Again the general idea behind it is you make your self more attractive by working on the bad things and fixing that within yourself. When the other person starts moving closer.. you build on that.
So if we apply that rule to your stitch that is why you have been hearing.. "Go with the Flow."
Usually what happens is that people start the R talks after the other person "comes home".
Your case is way different.. she never left.. she is just saying she wants to.
So.. Once people start down the road to reconciling the general thought is you try and move things forward. For me it was sitting down with my W and trying to figure out how things should work. We did a lot of talking about what went wrong. Or what things should be different. The big thing to look for here is when the other person starts feeling uncomfortable or attacked. That would be a sign for you to slow down and rethink what you are saying.
All I can show you is things that worked for me. I question whether to do that right now.. simply because she is still saying don't get your hopes up.
Bworl.. agrees with that statement by saying this..
"I absolutely do NOT think it's wrong to WANT some assurance. But let's face it, if you ask her, you already know what she'll say. So what else is there? To me, you keep working at this better you, you strive for consistency in the new you, you continue to show how much you value her.....and, unfortunately, you do that with no real way of knowing if her intentions are changing."
Once you see a change in some way you need to look at it again. I really think your focus would be better spent at changing the critical you. For the long term. To me.. stop worrying where she might be going.. and see where she is.
"I am still, at this point, waiting for her to give some positive verbal communication that she is willing, correct?"
Sometimes.. actions speak louder than words.. most of the time actions are much more clear than talking. She has to decide if she is WA or not. The only thing you can do is make it more appealing so that she dosen't. If she was truly done.. she would be gone.
Relax Eat Think Act normal React.. Smartly. Do something different. Emulate. Do Work.
I think you are on the right track.. Something you are doing is working. You really need to look at what is working beyond.. partying. You need to look at your mannerisms, your thoughts, your speech.. when things are going well and when they are not. Then compare how you were in each situation. To be honest my gut tells me just keep doing what you are doing.. then there is this little part that says be careful. This situation you are in could go bad quick. Its just really hard to give any solid advice in this situation because it does not fit the "norm".
Forrest, that has been the source of my confusion all along. There are some moments where I sense she is thinking about us and wants to say "don't get your hopes up", or I hear her say "I" and "me" in reference to a future.....but I am hard pressed to pinpoint down times or what I would call bad times.
I believe I have been very consistent in my mannerisms, thoughts and speech...and that is where she has noticed the biggest change. I talk a lot about the fun and partying, but every day I think about what I am saying and how it is being heard by her....and yesterday for me was the start of a return to some form of normalcy....I need to find out if that is what she is looking for, also.
If all she really wants to do is party every chance we get and let the truly important goals slide, then I have a bigger problem on my hands than I had imagined.
The beginning was hard, but as I "own" this personality again it becomes easier each day.
...and tell me your thoughts on why "This situation you are in could go bad quick"...I know there is nothing solid right now, and she has not given me any verbal indications that she is changing her mind....is that why you say that?
