Been here for months - time to tell my story

[mulesqb]

Ok - I wanted to journal a bit. Went to MC on Thurs. My W asked me to start. I brought up neighbor's H and said it is still an issue for me. It led to a pretty heated discussion right in front of the MC. Somehow my W was saying that she can't trust me - so I said that it was unbelievable that she would say the trust issues were on her part when she is the one that decided to take our personal matters outside our marriage to another man. I said that I wasn't going to stand by and be humiliated anymore. I said that if we are going to work on our marriage that I was not going to share her with another man EVER. I told her that I will not tolerate her being alone with him outside even if his W or i am home. She got very defensive. Then she got in to the kids. Unfortunately, we ran out of time and didn't get too far into the kids. On the way home we discussed that we would do some couples things with them from time to time.

She was very good about it over the weekend. She didn't give him the time of day. We had a good day Sat at some other friends. Then yesterday, they invited us over. I said i didn't want to go because my son had a baseball game. The game ended up getting rained out and the neighbor's W ends up coming over our house. A half hour later, she was followed by the H. We ended up cooking on my deck. My wife was doing very good - she wasn't flirting at all. He was his usual self, trying to be funny. Finally he decides he wants to throw someone in the pool. His W went inside as he was saying that and my W comes out. After a few jokes he gets her to look at something by the pool and pushes her in. I was was furious and in a rage - but didn't want to do something stupid, so I helped her get out. I asked her if she was ok. She was trying to laugh it off but I could tell she was not happy. I walked her inside and told her to just say the word and i will throw this A**hole off our property. She asked me to be cool. I told her I would try. She changed and we ended up coming back out for dessert. She made a homemade dessert and he started busting her chops about it. I told her it was great and his W agreed. He started to talk to me but I couldn't take it anymore - in the middle of the sentence I stood up and went inside - I wanted to punch him in the face soooo bad. But it would be so far from what I would normally do. And my kids were there. I didn't want to let him bring out the worst in me. So I went and stood on my front porch. 20 minutes later they were leaving. He tried to make small talk with me, but i totally blew him off.

I spoke to my W last night. I think she is finally seeing his true colors and while he may be fun to hang out with as an escape from whatever she wants to escape from - he is still a horse's a$$. I told her how pissed off I was - and how disrespectful he was to both of us. My W was wearing a white shirt - so I told her that I thought that was part of the reason he did what he did and that he is just a sick bast@%#. She slowly agreed. I was hoping at some point that he would do something stupid enough to piss her off - I'm hoping this was it.

Yesterday was an emotional day at home. I called a family meeting because my oldest S has been lashing out at my W. He said it was because she was forcing everyone to hang out with the neighbors all the time even though nobody but her likes them. We had a long discussion which resulted in my W running upstairs crying. When I talked to her about it. She said that her family really wants her right now a certain way and that she can't be the way everyone wants right now. She said she thinks she is going through MLC - she said that on her own. (This was before the pool incident - so we discussed the neighbors). She said that she didn't want to be alone with them - that she wanted me to be with her whenever she spent time with them. I told her that I understood that and her need to have friends - but that these two people were taking up far too much of her time. I said that we never get to work on our marriage because of them. She said that she knows that but because of her depressed state and emptiness inside that she just feels like she needs to be around people and that will help her feel better about her situation at home. I said that sounded like she was avoiding the problems at home. We talked for a while longer and have MC this week on Wednesday.

Her moods were up and down all weekend. I'm so confused on what to do and how to do it. I am completely convinced she never had romantic feelings (I concluded that by our many talks this weekend)towards him ever. She said she just wants to be wild every now and then and feel free to have a few drinks and curse and not be what her parents wanted her to be. I told her that I like when she gets wild would like to be with her when she is. She said that she wanted me to be there. She sends me very mixed signals about being intimate. My gut is that she is not ready for intimacy (not necessarily sex). Any opinions on this roller coaster would be greatly appreciated. Please tell me where I am going wrong. I know everyone thinks I need to 86 the neighbors. It's not that easy. They are really the only friends she has right now. She told me that she has befriended them because they have no ties to our family and didn't know her before - so they wouldn't question her behavior. She asked me to please not take that away from her right now, but that she would definitely honor my wishes with her behavior. She apologized. Where am i ?? And where do I go from here?

[Bworl]

I think you've taken your stand on the neighbors, particularly the husband.

I would not press the matter any further.

She sounds more fragile than I thought she was. Her comments definitely sound like a woman who is dealing with some identity issues, something that you might associate with a MLC.

By the way, did you ever look into the Sue Monk Kidd book I mentioned? She was going thru a similar time of confusion and uncertainty, and the book eloquently shares her journey back to wholeness and peace inside. It is definitely from a spiritual perspective, but if your wife reads and is not turned off by that, it may be helpful to her.

You have to be careful to not let a family meeting turn in to a gang up on Mom session. You may be better off talking to the boys on your own, while Mom is away, and helping them understand both what she's going through AND your love and devotion to her.

It would be nice if she would consider individual counseling with a pro-family counselor. I think it would help her alot if she could express her fears and uncertainties to someone removed from the family.

You may have to tolerate some interaction with the couple next door. If your wife will honor your wishes concerning her interaction with the husband, it is doable if you can keep yourself under control. Perhaps a man to man talk at some point would be in order again. Just don't come across as threatening or hateful, because you can be sure it will get back to her.

In the end I think you have to love her and help her to find her way. Learn to communicate with her and to read her feelings. Make sure that she knows that she can tell you anything without fear of condemnation. And mostly let her know that you love her and what her to be happy.

Let's see where it goes from there.


Blessings,

Bill

[Phoenixdeux]

So, it sounds like she's willing to sacrifice everything, even her kids, for these neighbors. She missed the whole take-home message...which was, "mom, we don't like them. Quit making us hang out with them all the time".

My advice is she will resist you if you try to force this issue. But that doesn't mean you can't do anything. Go out. Help her discover her wild side. Go have drinks with her. Get out of the house. And do stuff with the kids as well. Stay busy enough that the neighbors can't hang out with you that much.

[mulesqb]

She sounds more fragile than I thought she was. Her comments definitely sound like a woman who is dealing with some identity issues, something that you might associate with a MLC.

Thanks Bill - you are very perceptive. She had a few moments over the weekend where she was very depressed. I asked what i could do to help. She said to just listen - that's what I did. But I had a lump in my throat the whole time - I want to help so badly. She is in there - it seems like she's battling to come out.

By the way, did you ever look into the Sue Monk Kidd book I mentioned?

Yes I did - i actually picked it up last week but have been unsure on whether to give it to her. She seemed so reluctant to listen to anyone about her situation, I don't want her to fly off the handle at my suggestion - so I'm still feeling it out.

You have to be careful to not let a family meeting turn in to a gang up on Mom session.

Again Bill - you are spot on because that is exactly what happened. I felt like I had to go through with it because she seemed to be questioning where i was. I wanted to show her that we still stand together. I said to my S that we are in no way telling him who to like or dislike - but we do expect him to show respect for his parents' friends and elders in general until proven differently.

It would be nice if she would consider individual counseling with a pro-family counselor. I think it would help her alot if she could express her fears and uncertainties to someone removed from the family.

She brought this up - so i called our MC to see if she knew any that we could call. Then my W backed off and actually seemed mad at me.

You may have to tolerate some interaction with the couple next door. If your wife will honor your wishes concerning her interaction with the husband, it is doable if you can keep yourself under control. Perhaps a man to man talk at some point would be in order again. Just don't come across as threatening or hateful, because you can be sure it will get back to her.

Total agreement. This is why I haven't taken the hard stand. I told her last night that I really appreciate the way she addressed my concerns with her actions this weekend. She said it meant a lot to her that I noticed. It is so hard to be around him right now. I am so angry that he pushed her in. Don't worry about me, I will keep myself under control - I just wanted her to know that I was willing to fight for her. I'm actually ok with his W right now. I truly believe my W needs a friend outside the house right now. At least I know the neighbor's W is a decent person.

In the end I think you have to love her and help her to find her way. Learn to communicate with her and to read her feelings. Make sure that she knows that she can tell you anything without fear of condemnation. And mostly let her know that you love her and what her to be happy.

You've hit my big thing here. Should I tell her I love her?? I haven't in months and it is killing me. At one point she said nobody here loves me anymore. I told her that was the farthest thing from the truth, that there was a lot of love for her in the house. DR kept me from saying what I really wanted to say - which was that no matter what has happened the last 5 months that I haven't stopped loving her for one second. But I was conflicted with what the books says. I also don't want to put her on the spot because I don't know how she will answer that.

Thanks for the advice on the neighbors, I think she understands now. I won't press any more, she knows how I feel.

This is so hard!!

[mulesqb]

So, it sounds like she's willing to sacrifice everything, even her kids, for these neighbors. She missed the whole take-home message...which was, "mom, we don't like them. Quit making us hang out with them all the time".

Hey Phoenix - thanks for stopping by! I don't think she missed the message. I think she is finally getting the message. She just finally heard it first hand and didn't like it. She is trying to figure out how to handle. I'm trying to be supportive to her. She is really clashing with S14.

My advice is she will resist you if you try to force this issue. But that doesn't mean you can't do anything. Go out. Help her discover her wild side. Go have drinks with her. Get out of the house. And do stuff with the kids as well. Stay busy enough that the neighbors can't hang out with you that much.

I agree and I think that is great advice. The hard part is the kids. I hate to say it, she just doesn't want to be around them right now. She feels like she can't have fun. This is where I struggle as lately we leave them home A LOT. She actually asked for just us and the kids to go out the other night for Chinese. We were all excited. On the way over to the restaurant - her cell rings and it's the neighbor's W. She invites herself to the restaurant and eats with us. That was one of the things my S14 brought up. I answered for my W (I felt like she was being grilled)and just said that it was unfortunate, but Mommy didn't want to be rude, but she didn't invite her. I would love to move so we didn't have them around - but I don't think my W would handle all that well. I like your point about staying busy. I wish this was before the age of cell phones. The W can always find us!

[Bworl]

You've hit my big thing here. Should I tell her I love her?? I haven't in months and it is killing me. At one point she said nobody here loves me anymore.

...DR kept me from saying what I really wanted to say - which was that no matter what has happened the last 5 months that I haven't stopped loving her for one second...I also don't want to put her on the spot because I don't know how she will answer that.

DB and DR offer us techniques and ways of thinking to handle the crisis our marriage is in. There is no "one size fits all" approach that works for everyone in every situation.


When a spouse has left and expressed a desire to leave the marriage, saying the "I love you's" can be detrimental because they guilt the person leaving. They will often respond harshly to that.


While you separated for a short period of time, you are living together now, correct? I think her comment in bold above tells you all you need to know about whether telling her you love her is ok or not.


In the end, expressing your honest feelings is always at least honest. Letting her know that even in the midst of her storm that you are there and will continue being there for her, well that HAS to be good, right?


You are the one who knows best what to do. Sometimes you just have to go with your gut.


You say those kinds of things because you mean them and feel them with all your heart. And even if she reacts negatively, she will remember, especially if your actions match your words.


Go ahead and put it out there. Don't go over the top with it. And watch how she responds. If she accepts it, then you know you can try it again in the future. If she recoils, then put it back on the shelf.


This is YOUR life, YOUR wife, and YOUR marriage. Be the man you are.


Blessings,

bill

[mulesqb]

Yes we only separated for a week. We have been back together for a little over 2 weeks now. She is is physically cold to me. That's ok I understand and will take very slow.

I guess I'm a little scared to tell her my feelings again. That ILYBANILWY speech killed me. But I think i have to do it because she may doubt it right now.

Thanks for the motivation - next open door I am going in! I think it's time.

One last thing. At the end of MC last week we were in a heated argument about trust and the MC asked if we both wanted to make another appointment. My W said yes, that she finally feels like we are getting to the crux of everything. I was floored - she pulled a Costanza on me!! Normally she would have said no and taken a month to come back. I was encouraged by that.

[iamlost]

Hi Mules! Glad to see you guys are making progress, like your wife said, it "finally feels like you are getting to the crux of everything."

I think that pool interaction with the neighbor is super weird, like every other interaction you've described. From the first post you were saying that your wife feels like she doesn't know how to have fun. As I mentioned to you earlier, I don't think her interactions with him have to do with fun, either. I think it's more that he treats her the way she feels about herself. Like your son says, nobody but her likes them, and I think that's only her own sadness that "likes" them. Misery, meet company.

Pheonix's advice is great, can you take over the social calendar and help her rediscover actual fun?

I think when she discovers some genuine happiness for herself, she'll gladly leave the neighbors behind.

[faithisbelieving]

Hi Mules...I agree with Bill. We all read 'no R talk' and no "I love you's" and, what Bill says is true: many times WE, the LBS's say these things at inopportune times or in attempts to try and get across 'betterer' how we feel. It comes across to them as pressure and pushes them further away.

However, there ARE times when it is appropriate and when said or done in the right milieu. As above, if your W said "no one loves me anymore"..that might translate into 'I would like to hear you say I love you". Only you can know because we are all not there to see her eyes or hear the inflection in her voice.

A funny or 'attractive' response might have been "I know some hot hunky guy who does and would say it in heartbeat." If she smirked when you responded 'me', you could just give a 'man' smile and say nothing and walk quietly away...leaving it open and not applying pressure. Just a thought.

Finally, I find that incident of your neighbor pushing your W in the pool HIGHLY offensive..dangerous...and inappropriate 'flirting'. We did that to our g/f's in HS. I won't beat you up on this.....I think you need to set a boundary here for good....it's a N.U.T.

FIB

[mulesqb]

Hey guys - thanks for taking the time to respond. I had a terrible day yesterday. My W woke up with a very depressed look on her face, so I asked if there was anything I could do. She said she's just not happy and it's not getting better. She said it is something inside her that she is going through. She said she is trying to work through it but it's not getting better. I said I really thought she should see a doctor.(She has been through two bouts of depression in her life)I told her i would go with her. She said she doesn't need to and that she can't trust me anymore. She said I am not the same person I was and that she feels strange around me and in her house. I said that I don't understand why but if that the way she feels I must have done something along the way and wish she could tell me what it was. I told her that we can't keep living like this - that it is affecting our children. I said that when she called to reconcile she told me that she was ready to recommit to the marriage but that she really doesn't seem like she is ready and hasn't done a thing in 3 weeks to make me think that. Our MC told us not to reconcile unless we both were 100% into recommitting or we would just end up separating again. i said it looks like she was right. I asked her if that is what she wants and she said yes, that we should look into a legal separation. I told her that if she had checked herself out and was thinking clearly and felt this way that I would have no problem with this, but in her current state of mind without knowing what's going on inside her this seems like a backwards decision. She could end up blowing up our family but still feeling the exact same way (she ended our first separation because she told me that she felt the same way with or without me). She said that is what she wants and that I should contact a lawyer.

I called a lawyer to set up a consultation for tomorrow. My W came upstairs and asked me what I am doing and I told her I setup a meeting. She started to cry and was mad and said ok that is what I am going to do then. I just don't understand - she told me to do it and then got mad when i did. The rest of the day was terrible. We got into a couple of arguments - and out of frustration I said some really bad things about the neighbors.

Last night was even harder. My son is graduating from 8th grade and they had his academic awards last night. He won 6 awards. I am so proud of him, as he accomplished this while all this crap is going on. He said that he was holding back tears all night. The other thing is that being at the awards put us in front of all our real friends. My W has kind of divorced us from them the last few months while all this has been going on. Well my W was so phony there last night it made me sick to my stomach. But there is no doubt in my mind that they now all know what is going on. They haven't seen us in a while and were all trying to talk to us, but it is so strange with me and w now, that I noticed a lot of them were looking concerned.

Bottomline is now I am back in no man's land. I am so angry at her right now I don't know what to do. I am angry because she has called ME to reconcile twice and both times really didn't mean it. I feel like a complete punching bag. I also am hurting real bad because I feel like I have lost her again now for a 3rd time - each time tougher than the last. The ironic thing is that yesterday she went over to the neighbor and told him that she thought the R was inappropriate and needed to stop. I had told her in one of our arguments that on Sunday the kids looked her right in the face and asked that she stop putting the neighbors before them and stop forcing them on the kids, and that she completely disregarded their feelings.

For the first time in all of this I really feel like this R is over. Anyone have any suggestions on the next step. I have felt so strong lately, but my son got to me last night when he told me how bad he was hurting on what should have been the greatest night of his life. It is also so hard to be around our real friends with their families.