I too could not read minds. I want to see what I did wrong. I do. I want to see where I could have been a better wife. But if I look at my ultimate situation, there was not a thing I could do.
If my X had been decent to me and told me what he needed, I would have done that. Hell, I tried my damndest to make things work after he FINALLY told me what he needed, but he did not care then.
If someone asks you to do something and you do it, and you do it for years, is not knowing that is NOT what they want a fault on your part? No! I did what my X wanted me to do. What he asked me to do. He had an affair with a Ho and decided I was the one who was wrong. After all these years, I am led to that one true fact. So, no, I do not take his responsibility for the demise of my marriage. I loved him with all my heart and I would have never done what I did if I had not done so.
He was weak. He wanted what he wanted and to hell with anything and everything else - INCLUDING HIS CHILDREN. I would not have done that. I would not have told his children to hell with them. Because they were mine too. That's the difference.
And for me, I just saw a decline in our marriage really from both sides maybe the last 5-6 years of the marriage. I did sweep a lot of stuff under the rug that I probably should have confronted a lot earlier. What I did neglect though through my years of kids, work, etc. was our friendship. I took for granted quite a few things...made the assumption he'd always be there.
Not blaming myself...I'm just at the point where I see the mistakes on both sides and have just been totally past that for a while now. It happened. It's done. It's where it belongs...in the past. I guess for me blame isn't a need here. I do know my ex has done things I think are totally unforgiveable. He chose to do them and has not shown an iota of regret for the hurt he caused. So for me, it's more like recognizing and knowing he burned my biscuits, accepting that, and just moving on now.
Doing what your X requested and finding out it isn't what he wanted isn't your fault. That's an example of the things that to me I just recognized and accepted. I guess too I just found it too burdensome to carry around the need to place blame, it was like an unsolveable puzzle to me. So I just realized over time it was something I didn't need to fully answer. I know my part in the situation. I'm more than sure my ex knows his, whether or not he ever expresses it.
Telling your children to hell with them is also wrong. My ex said that during the early stages of the game. I do know...without my "knowing" (if you get my drift...my kids do talk LOL...we can't let the ex "know" I "know" because after all he's been secret-agent man for ages now...if you can follow that loopy hillarious logic)...that he regrets that and he has been rebuilding his relationship with them as best he can. And it's a difficult road. We're all miles apart...spread from Pennsylvania to Nevada now.
I found that as time went on, as I let the situation go my life became infinitely better.
I'm also learning so much in the R I am in now. Ironically we implicitly trust each other. We talk and communicate so much better even though we are separated by 60 miles due to just practical stuff...work, family, etc. (He has daughters living near him, I have to remain in the Columbus are for work and because of my elderly mom.) And the odds are stacked against us: long distance relationships aren't great in the statistical odds for success. The fact that the distance requires us to communicate so much better and enforces us to really think "what is important here?" helps a lot. We know that a priority of each of our days is to make certain we have touched base, we give each other a run down of our day, talk a little bit about what's good or bad going on in our lives, and set the expectations each day. I guess one of the beauties of the 21st century is you can "communicate asynchronously" in the jargon of my industry...meaning if one of us can't reach the other by phone or in person, text and email have been godsends--although communication methods really aren't as important as really making sure you DO talk. One of the best compliments Dan's ever given me was "you're so easy to talk to."
But we took a very long time to get to know each other, we made sure we introduced ourselves early on to our family and friends, we asked each other a lot of questions...even the uncomfortable ones. There was more vetting going on there I think than with a vice-presidential selection LOL.
What an OUTSTAAAANDING thread! Us Winebutts need to drop and give you 50 pushups cause we were so stupid in not bringing this up in this manner.
One of the saddest things is many will refuse to take the cold anlaytical approach to our own toxic behavior (and I used to lead this sorry procession) Thus will * meet up with another person of the fairer sex * trade stories of how the former partner did us wrong * Decide to fix their problem not realizing we do not have the tools to do so * Sleep with them thus complicating and sealing the deal * Have the toxic behavior creep in and the new partner tells us things striking similar to what the previous X did * now have a new X-Wife, Girlfriend, whatever And the cycle begins anew. What lessons can we learn from this?
Anyone here can contribute here cause * If you are the LBS or WAS you can contribute * This fits into finding the toxic behavior you did that caused the problem so you can work on what to do a 180 on! * To know where you want to end up one must take an honest appraisal to where they been. Not covering up with excuses or anything. If you are 2% wrong then here you can look for the 2%. This is not to beat yourself up but a technical no BS analysis type step one to get yourself back on track. Again OUTSTANDING.
With that said my bads. 1. PROFESSIONAL VICTIM. It's always the other's fault. 2. PRAISE JUNKIE. Always looked to be the hero or the guy whom the ladies would sneek a peak. Never cheated but was short in this area. 3. NOT MAKING AN EMOTIONAL CONNECTION. Unless you are willing to do that don't get married. Reguardless of trust, fear, or what then do not do that. 4. HUMBLE UP. Sometimes after being backed in a corner you do not care and never admit fault. If the other is hyprocrytical and never admits no worries "YOU CAN ONLY CHANGE WHAT YOU DO" 5. EXPECTING A CERTAIN REACTION: You do actions reguardless of what the other persons reactions are. Like pushing out a vehicle from a snowbank and they do not thank you. The thanks then becomes a payment and the action was a transaction not a gift cause you expected something in return though it was not much. 6. NOT BEING THERE. Sorry for the Military, police, FF, and such folks. If you get married the travel jobs and such no matter how much you try are not enough and that extra money will feed the court system. OUCH. Time is your most valuable asset and your best gift. If you cannot give it your partner and kids will take note. 7. NOT MAKING A SPIRITAL CONNECTION. Statistics from all faiths 1st Marriage 50% fail rate 1st Marriage of Professing Christians 50% fail rate 1st Marriage of people of any faith who pray together at least 3-4 X weekly. .04% 2nd Marriage fail rate 60% 3rd Marriage fail rate 75%
(Stats From a Men's organization dedicated to making men do the right things with family, kids, and such and stop attempting to satisfy themselves first.)
My X did take us off the cliff but I ran us up to it then tried to pull back. I've been told with many ladies once they make that decision to leave the men are just dancing with a dead relationship. I do hope for many's sake that Michelle's tatics do work and change that but I feel it is a steep uphill battle. I believe even if the spouse's decision is made one must try them. How hard and how long you try is up to you, spouse, and your maker.
This is independent of abuse and illegal activities which was not present in my case.
DO I want to do this in order to have a successful relationship in the future. No I'm lazy and I've got used to being alone. There are other things occupying my time that trip my trigger more than a committed connected relationship. However most of you folks do wish on and that is a good thing but and please post here as step 1. It's like doing your homework. OUTSTANDING THREAD
"All I want is a weeks pay for a day's work" Steve Martin
7. NOT MAKING A SPIRITAL CONNECTION. Statistics from all faiths 1st Marriage 50% fail rate 1st Marriage of Professing Christians 50% fail rate 1st Marriage of people of any faith who pray together at least 3-4 X weekly. .04% 2nd Marriage fail rate 60% 3rd Marriage fail rate 75%
(Stats From a Men's organization dedicated to making men do the right things with family, kids, and such and stop attempting to satisfy themselves first.)
No_hill_for_a_Swimmer,
I believe those stats based on their statistical sample. However, I believe the number .04% number is way too low in general.
At first, I blamed a lack of "spiritual connection" for a big part of the demise of my M. My sister said over and over that was my fault for not fostering that. That is a lie from the pit of Hell. Satan wants us to believe we were ALL POWERFUL to change the situation. In fact, we are not; the other person has free will.
As I went out looking for a new W, I found MANY Christian women who had that connection...and they were Ded. It simply came down to if that other person really upheld Christian beliefs.... NOT whether they looked like a Christian by attending church, Bible study, praying, etc.
One VERY disturbing case was a cute as a button brunette mother of three. She was attractive, smart, feminine and engaging. Both she and her H were Marriage Mentor leaders. Her H was a church Elder. They went to church, Marriage Mentors AND Bible study. He blazed off with some woman he met at work. She was dumbfounded.
One rather funny saying was told to me by my Ded friend, Terri. About people "pretending" to be Christians. Her father, a minister, said, "Just because a mouse is in the cookie jar it DOES NOT make it a cookie."
RMG
Last edited by RMG; 10/10/0807:59 PM.
"The bad things in life open your eyes to the good things you weren't paying attention to before." from "Good Will Hunting"
RMG Good point. My Clarification and expounding God uses good men. Bad men use God. You will know them by their fruits. (usually a mixed bag)
You took statistics probably in College and it shows. I tend to agree with your premise on the data and I did not challenge the stats or the methods collected at the time. I still believe personal gain was not the speaker's goal. If the stats were incorrect by mistake even by a factor of 100 the message was the same. Am I a geek or what?
Since I am single I have a choice * Either be a hermit or a monk since I did make the vow of death do us part. * Drive the fairer sex crazy with flirting and poetry * Jump back into another committed relationship
Since the world is neither black or white I'll take the middle road. And yes that sometimes makes me wrong in my own eyes. No worries it's a harsh life. I'm a Cub Fan since 1967.
"All I want is a weeks pay for a day's work" Steve Martin
No_Hill.... holy shnit hommey!... what a text-blast! I'm lost in the first bit.... yet your list I totally relate to... and this bit....
Quote:
My X did take us off the cliff but I ran us up to it then tried to pull back. I've been told with many ladies once they make that decision to leave the men are just dancing with a dead relationship. I do hope for many's sake that Michelle's tatics do work and change that but I feel it is a steep uphill battle. I believe even if the spouse's decision is made one must try them. How hard and how long you try is up to you, spouse, and your maker.
Particularly the part about when women are done with an R, they are done. I would agree that I do not see much probability of a turn-around using DB methods or whatever once the woman has made up her mind. No matter if her reasons are legit or contrived. My experience has convinced me that a when a woman is done, she is done... with very few exceptions.
I think you and I have dialogued in past about the likelihood of turnaround. Frankly, if you look at the message board thread counts.... there seem to be lots on the "trouble has started" newcomer boards..... a lull in those that are doing the doing.... then a whole schwack for us post-D'ers.
Frankly, I think it will take a lot to turn the tide of the D trend. We are in a culture of disposable relationships.... particularly marriages. Christians no exception. I have heard directly from many staunch Christians that they feel "he should leave her" or "she should leave him" who I cant imagine them saying that years ago.
Mind you, their stance years ago would have been a narrow-minded pat-answer about divorce being an abomination without any understanding of how hellish a bad marriage is and what it really takes to turn it around.
Praying together... ya.... I will say that the last positive thing my ex said directly to me was that she was happy when I prayed for our family every day (first few years of M). Man! for it to go from that to where it went though! Whew!
There are few predictors in life. That is why I mainly live a day at a time now.
However most of you folks do wish on and that is a good thing but and please post here as step 1. It's like doing your homework.
Good response.
It's knowing what you want AND digging deep into your own soul to know thyself before proceeding. Unfortunately, for many folks when the going gets rough, it's easier to bail on the M. Divorce laws, OP, etc. HAVE NOTHING TO DO WITH THE DIVORCE RATE. It starts and ends with you and me: what is your level of commitment and how far are you willing to go the distance to make that commitment? All too often, I see an attitude "it's about me me me me me and what I'm not getting here or what I want..."
I'm so pleased with the responses here. Looks like we got some people thinking.
Again I would like to say even if you are not responsible for the end of your marriage, that doesn't mean that on some level, perhaps a tiny level, you didn't contribute. In order to recover and have a successful relationship in the future, it's really very necessary to figure out this contribution and work on the issue.
When I told my BF (R2-yes we meet on this forum) about this thread, he agreed that he clearly contributed to his marriage failure. when I asked how, he said - "he asked her to get married"!! Ok, a very funny answer but in fact R2's marriage was such a disaster that he did contribute by asking her to get married. He didn't see the signs that must have been there!
Keep it up guys!
Gigi
"It's not what happens to you, it's what you make of it." Zig Ziglar
Both she and her H were Marriage Mentor leaders. Her H was a church Elder. They went to church, Marriage Mentors AND Bible study. He blazed off with some woman he met at work. She was dumbfounded.
RMG, Hill, Everyone....
Do we not see this kind of situation often? I do. So once again my point that I have not experienced church culture to be meaningfully aware of the true state of marriages and R's in this day and age. The guy described had a title as a marriage mentor but it does not appear he was one in practice. Is this not common?
Was Brittany Spears not a professed Christian at one point? All it took to propell her to behaviour that kept her on the font of the tabloids for the past couple years was a bit of spotlight, attention, and money. It does not appear her Christian faith kept her grounded in her choices or relationships.
I have observed the same thing first hand with my sitch and many, many others. We went to a church that was founded on family-building teaching. Yet many of my generation from that exact church are divorced! Many of them with lots of drama and betrayal.
What is my point?
Predominant western church culture (as I have experienced it) does not create an environment of honesty/openness for people to recognize and deal with truth and reality of where they are at in life. Issues often remained hidden behind the ambient pressure to conform and look a certain way so we don't taint the Christian image.
Our Church culture does not work for relationships. There are too many distractions to honesty. Too many interwoven agenda (ie: money, fame, prestige, egos, property, titles, positions, empire-building).
Lets face it, if the marriage mentor guy we are looking at as an example is anywhere near typical of the average guy, he has been inundated with sexual messages from hollywood, entertainment, news and the internet that tell him he can and perhaps even has the right to go out and boink his workplace colleague or anyone else. Its ok because our culture is accepting of this kind of behaviour. He may very well know an example of someone else who did this very thing and that guys life seems ok now.
I can tell you this.... when divorces started happening in my peer group from church, they spread like wildfire. My XW felt justified by the one before her. A buddy of mine came to me last year and said that his W (now XW) justified her D from him because my XW left me and coached his XW through the same rationalizations. This thing has a life of its own!
The slope is a lot steeper and slipprier than it is perceived to be. Nothing surprises me anymore. Come on! Bill Clinton does his thing with Monica Lewinski 10 years ago, lies about it to the world, and is now a societal legend helping his W's political career. Monica becomes a spokesperson for Weight Watchers or whatevr it was. Society says it is ok. Church says its ok.
Even Anthony Robbins had a "mid-life celebration" and left his W for someone younger.
In the church, we have high-profile situations from the 80's like the Bakkers and Swaggert. A man I admired, Larry Lea, who has an amazing story of spirituality, recovery from depression and pastored a mega church in Texas is divorced and remarried. And these are just the high-profile ones. What about "Christian" artists like Amy Grant or Country singer Sara Evans who was a professing "Christian". Examples are everywhere and examples justify others to do the same.
We as a society accept and frankly want what is going on. Church society included. This does not mean every individual.... people in this room are cases in point.
For me, I have accepted that we are in a "Second-Marriage" and "Blended-Family" culture. I have no wish or plan to divorce ever again. I sincerely hope we do not become a "Third-Marriage" culture but the tide will go where it goes.
The only thing I can do is be the best I can be and let my own life be an example and help others going through the pain of what divorce. There are very few cultural icons that have influenced humanity on a great scale and I do not believe I am one of them anyway.
Jesus (arguably the most influential man in history) was explicit. Divorce is wrong. Yet our culture goes where it goes. I do not understand why. So I have resigned to do the best I can and let that influence who it does.
Another person of widespread influence, Bill W, did not try to change society. He did not try to prevent alcoholism. He simply discovered a way to deal with it once it showed up. One alcoholic at a time. People are not drinking less, they are drinking more and expanding to many, many other substances. Yet AA (and all other 12-step fellowships) help people when they are ready for it and help mitigate the damage to society. But they do not endeavor to stop the spread of the disease of addiction/alcoholism.
I love my wife and kids the same way I stay sober: A day at a time. I believe in marriage a day at a time. I hope to stay married forever the same way I hope to stay sober forever. What works for me is making sure to the best of my ability that I do to for today what is best for today. If I do that, I find that my tomorrows show up in better shape than they would if I worried about them.
This is my way of not participating in the divorce culture. Its working so far. Only time will prove it out. Thats how I see it anyway.
My friend, Becky's situation was sad..... Her exH is an a$$.... Many guys would have loved to have a W like her....
WOW!!! Amy Grant...... Talk about rationalization..... Yes, her husband was an addict.... AND had other problems...... I am still looking in the Bible for the chapter and verse were she is justified... If you find it first, please post it here...
BTW, I am TOTALLY straight... But, Vince Gill is rough on the eyes compared to Gary... Just a fact.... We all know it is NOT about looks....
Hey, what about Sandi Patti?
I cannot believe your exW's behavior.. Actually HELPING people do someone that is wrong.... WOW!!! She needs to really look at herself... Then, again, my "Christian" former BIL and SIL "helped" my exW... I guess the whole thing about "Christians" sharing what the Bible says is out of style.... They just "help" people feel better (or so they think)....
I, too, am like you.... Nothing shocks me..... People do WHATEVER the he!! they want...... I FIRMLY believe many people are "Christians" when they want to be....
RMG
"The bad things in life open your eyes to the good things you weren't paying attention to before." from "Good Will Hunting"
