My Story

[JDOllie]

whateverittakes,
My PMA is a result of just realizing that I'm worth more! Problem I have is being desperately in love with my W.

I think that I may be a little lucky in this case. A is not a big passionate deal. It appears to be mostly a shoulder to cry on. OM is not good looking, not smart, etc - sort of insulting. Not a hormonal, crazed sex thing. Again, W has never really said anything great about him, except he's nice and shy.

Anyway, W's biggest complaint is that we have never been friends (obviously untrue, but gotta respect her feelings). It would be huge for me, but I'm not sure how to wing it - but I think the key is patience, patience, patience.

[JDOllie]

Luci,
You are dead on.

The only thing that is different for me is that IS how I usually answer. I say, "I'm sorry for the past, and I have asked forgiveness, and I'm sorry you're angry, and I can't change the past, but would like to do right by the future."

So, it was a 180 for me to stand up for the good things that we had. I have cards, paintings, poems, emails, collages, etc from her over the years.

However, you're right, and I did say to W, "I know you're angry, and I can see why you have those feelings, but what can we do about them if we can't talk about them, or receive counseling, or try to resolve in some way?"

[JDOllie]

Ok, my couple hours later review of my SECOND conversation, my own personal pep talk to myself.

1. I was calm and reasonable. I HAVE offered W dissolution and divorce, and she is the one being very weird about it, brings in OM to "defend" her. What the heck? I'm not pursuing, I'm asking for closure, and she gets mad about pursuing?
2. I made OM look really stupid, and although that will get her hackles up, I like it. Then, he made it worse, and came back with a REALLY lame and dorky response. One thing W likes about me is that I'm really funny, and this guy just shouldn't even try.
3. I stood up to her/him, and said I didn't want to hear him because he didn't know anything. Just like that I diminished his role, and I won't respond to anything she says about him again.
4. Discovered something very key: W said "You don't respect me". I don't know for sure why she thinks this, but it's good to her clearly and honestly state how she feels - she usually just clams up, and I need to find out why this is, and really show her its not true.

I read something in a post that I liked - it said most As aren't about looks or body - but about how OM/OW makes you FEEL. I need to find out what this A is about - it's definitely not looks, body, or personality.

Anyway, appreciate feedback, I'm mostly just journaling to myself - I don't expect anyone to make much sense of this!

[A in Ohio]

Remember Jon, this tool knows every negative thing about you and everything your W looks for in a man. He's playing the role. Now they are BOTH baiting you. Would a real man ask his girlfriend to forward a text, or, ask for the guys # to have a man to man conversation?

This dude is playing the game.. and doing it quite well. You need to step it up yourself.

PS - Work on your word usage while communication with your W.

[JDOllie]

A in Ohio,
You are right about OM.

What is funny is he told her to send me HIS # to call him. I was like, "What? What would I call him about." You're a moron, and you suck at being macho!

Anyway, I really nailed him tonight, and I'm loving it. W will never let on, but she noticed it. He doesn't seem to be the sharpest tool in the shed.

He said basically two things:
1. I demeaned W and was a coward (not true, ridiculous story from W - but I've heard this)
2. I had my chance, stop wasting her time.

He is married, separated/getting divorce, and has three kids 5,3, and 2.
What is great is that based on HIS situation, I replied,
"A man that can't handle his own marriage shouldn't be criticizing others. Also, a man that doesn't respect marriage (cheating with MY wife) is a coward."

The best thing is that I then zinged him on his lousy grasp of the English language.

And then the very best thing was his attempt at a response: "Oh, man, I'm getting misty." I had to ask W what that meant.
And she said, "Crying".
I was like "Why is he crying?"
She said, "Being sarcastic".
I said, "What? Wow. Well, he doesn't matter."

And then she never brought him up again. Bam, sometimes, you know you think of witty things like at 3 am, 6 hours too late? This was one time where I nailed one!

Also, she texted me and kids funny stuff later about Sound of Music.

Sometimes just when you're feeling really crappy, you actually get a little window. What is sad is that I offered to do NY Eve together to W, still trying to be nice, and she said no, but I'm fairly certain she will be with OM.

I'm not obsessing, but it is so sad. W used to be the most family-oriented, loving, kid-wrapped-up, best-mom-in-the-world person EVER!

[A in Ohio]

Sorry Jon but I'm going to kick ya around for a little while. I used to be in the exact same place. Read my saga of drama.

What is funny is he told her to send me HIS # to call him. I was like, "What? What would I call him about." You're a moron, and you suck at being macho!

Jon - Maybe the ladies on the board can comment on this quote a little better about what a 'man' should be. To me, he sounds like a high school hard a$$. To ask that you call him is a high school move. Acting 'as if' he has control, when in fact, it's a cowardice (sp) move. I would stop the pi$$ing match with OM. Not sexy or manly. At the end of the day, it's a waste of time as he's playing the game. It's not helping your M either.

Your W forwarding that message is a sign of disrespect. Don't encourage bad behavior. Remember, you getting mad is a sign you're not in control of yourself. Indifference, on the other had, is a sign that your in control and it's attractive. A response of "OM is entitled to his opinion" is plenty. Then follow that up with "I expect no further communication from him, especially thru you". Strong, confident, honorable.

Anyway, I really nailed him tonight, and I'm loving it. W will never let on, but she noticed it. He doesn't seem to be the sharpest tool in the shed.

Jon, I'm not sure what your trying to accomplish here. Again, this is wasted energy. Remember, she sought out A because there was something you weren't providing her. Not saying it's right but this is FACT. Man up and work on you. As Gucci would say, "ducks back".

Your W is lost. Busting on OM will make you feel good but it won't help your W. Ego is a bad thing!!! Secure and strong my man. I know you're hurt and it's a huge blow to your ego and self esteem. That will fade. Get rid of the ego and work toward being secure and strong.

He said basically two things:
1. I demeaned W and was a coward (not true, ridiculous story from W - but I've heard this)
2. I had my chance, stop wasting her time.

Uh, need I remind you he's a married man who's banging your W. What does his opinion matter to you? I know how your feeling and STOP IT!!!! I know EXACTLY how you feel. Remember, he's just f*cking w/ your emotions now. Even worse, your ALLOWING him to do that. Is that attractive to a woman?

He is married, separated/getting divorce, and has three kids 5,3, and 2.
What is great is that based on HIS situation, I replied,
"A man that can't handle his own marriage shouldn't be criticizing others. Also, a man that doesn't respect marriage (cheating with MY wife) is a coward."

Jon, Focus. You know OM's sitch and that is a GOOD thing. Treat it as information, not some sort of "I'm better than him" validation. Again, your W left you for HIM because SHE thought HE was better than YOU. Reality, stats, tangible assets DO NOT MATTER ONE BIT to a WAS. This isn't your reality, it's your Ws. She is scared of the storm (you) and taking refuge in a poorly built shack (OM). You have to learn to not be a storm, then she won't need to find a crap shack.

The best thing is that I then zinged him on his lousy grasp of the English language.

Was that really the best? Maybe it was immature or demeaning? You know, the things that your W is afraid of. So a married man with two kids and poor grammar is still a better choice in your Ws eyes. Look at you bro. You have it in you. DBing isn't about "winning", it's about looking at you and correcting those things.

And then the very best thing was his attempt at a response: "Oh, man, I'm getting misty." I had to ask W what that meant.
And she said, "Crying".
I was like "Why is he crying?"
She said, "Being sarcastic".
I said, "What? Wow. Well, he doesn't matter."

I think you know how I'm going to respond to this. Look at some of Gucci's responses on my threads. Ducks back. EVERY interaction with your W is an opportunity to SHOW HER that you've made changes.

And then she never brought him up again. Bam, sometimes, you know you think of witty things like at 3 am, 6 hours too late? This was one time where I nailed one!

Did she drop it because you were strong and acted with honor, or, that she realized it was hopeless?

Sometimes just when you're feeling really crappy, you actually get a little window. What is sad is that I offered to do NY Eve together to W, still trying to be nice, and she said no, but I'm fairly certain she will be with OM.

Were you trying to be nice or pursuing? I would choose pursuing. Who cares what she's doing NY Eve? What's important is what you're doing. If you have the kids, toss a rockin kids NYE party.

I'm not obsessing, but it is so sad. W used to be the most family-oriented, loving, kid-wrapped-up, best-mom-in-the-world person EVER!

Mine too. It's the fog. WORK ON YOU!! You're guessing, making assumptions and what ever else. You have no idea what's in her head and she isn't the person you married. If you want to guess, then try: confused, scared, depressed, mad, sad, angry. You'll hit 3 of 5 each time.

You asked me this question on my thread "W refuses to deal with past abuse, STILL claims that anything she did wrong in the M was in reaction to me, etc. How do you deal with that? Well, I guess you gave me the answer."

I don't deal with it. I took FULL responsibility of OUR past. Some say not to do this but with past abuse issues, you can't place any blame on W or it will push her away and turn into a pi$$ing match. She's trying to justify an A. You'll hear 10 reasons why she left. Just agree or validate. Why argue about it? You expect a response from W saying, "H, your right. I was an a$$ too. I'm not sure why I'm with this dirt bag. Why don't you go out and score a supermodel, that way were even. ILY, H". Why was it easy to take full responsibility? Easy, it DOESN'T MATTER. No one can fix the past. I got over it in two seconds and put it away. I identified the things I needed to work on and did

I'm not kicking you around because it's fun... Ok, it's a little fun, like 5%. The truth is that you're so focused on W, OM, D that you're burning a lot of energy on cheese less tunnels. I was there. Believe me, I was there. I had many great DBers kicking my sad a$$ for 3 months now. W hasn't changed a bit and that doesn't matter. I am a different man. Make yourself a different man. Everything else is just noise that can distract you.

Keep in mind that DBing w/ an active A is different than traditional DBing.

I'll be following your sitch... post often... post your thoughts... keep telling us your plan.

[gucci loafer]

And then the very best thing was his attempt at a response: "Oh, man, I'm getting misty." I had to ask W what that meant.
And she said, "Crying".
I was like "Why is he crying?"
She said, "Being sarcastic".
I said, "What? Wow. Well, he doesn't matter."

Actually, THEY are making fun of YOU here. She is telling you that she GETS his humor and it went right over your head. He is calling you a crybaby in a nutshell.

You will NEVER win her back with this type of childish nonsense.
Mature, confident men don't act this way. You are telling both of them that you don't respect him for interfering in a marriage, and yet you are telling her that you DO respect her, even though she is doing the same thing. This is making YOU look weak. Weak men are NOT attractive to women.

The actual facts here point that she doesn't respect YOU. It is coming across like you will take anything disrespectful from her EXCEPT if this is a PA. ????... (So you will take this from her if it is only an EA? You will take this from her when she will go out with him and refuse to go out with you?

That is not wise.

Jon, this IS an affair. PA,EA, or whatever else you want to call it. You won't earn her respect back until you show her that you won't tolerate a PA an EA or any type of intimtate relationship with OM. End of story.

[JDOllie]

Thanks, AIO, I need the kicking around. I will get over and catch up on your story.

This part is sort of new to me, and very confusing because W just hints around that it's a PA, when it seems to be more of a buddies thing. She has been VERY open and honest about starting to date, so why get all secretive?

However, I decided after that interchange that I wasn't going to do it anymore, and I told W this:

"Do not forward me any more texts from him. He does not know you or me or our kids or our lives."

And I wrote before that he ceases to exist to me at this point - W knows I think he's scum, and she knows I hate the A. I don't need to drive it home.

Any bonus points for that?

[JDOllie]

Gucci,
W gets me - she may be in a really bad place, but she gets my humor and stuff. We have always had inside jokes, and she will pick up on it - that's why I was so happy. Maybe I'm fooling myself, dunno.

I have very clearly stated to W that it IS an affair with a married man, and that marriage deserves respect at the least. Actually said we could get a dissolution in 30 days to do the "honorable" thing. I told her it was wrong in so many ways, and told my kids about it (making her mad). I tried to do the right thing, she refused, it's now on her conscience, and I don't worry about it any more.

You described why I'm so torn:

You won't earn her respect back until you show her that you won't tolerate a PA an EA or any type of intimtate relationship with OM.

My catch-22 is that W says our problem is that we haven't been friends - so my 180 would be just being a nice casual friend. But how do I balance that without approval? Do I just completely ignore her? Wait til the A fizzles out? File divorce?

My Christian beliefs mean that I can only get a divorce for adultery - I know some people say that EA is same thing, but I don't know, would rather be sure. And, I don't know that OM isn't just a shoulder to cry on - I honestly don't believe it's a PA, because W would absolutely rub it in my face.

Now, I'm not going to accept an EA at all - I took of my ring (a 180). But what do you do? Just patience?

Anyway, I'm wide open to suggestions. I am NOT going to mention OM again.

[JDOllie]

I have been doing a lot of thinking, and more reading, especially on the infidelity boards, and some other materials on affairs.

I do know that W went 2.5 years without even looking at another man - turned down guys that I know for sure that asked her out. I'm not sure that she feels what she is doing is "wrong" - although the attempts to justify it are a little extreme. OM just happens to have been married when she met, and they both played guitar, etc - so it might've started "innocently" - but don't they all start that way?

Anyway, I'm seeing so much conflicting advice that I'm still pretty dadburn confused. Lots say stay "friends" and you'll maybe win them over - others say put your foot down and don't tolerate it. Is it a personality thing based on W? Or is it a combination of both - make clear how wrong A is, and then be courteous when interaction is required because of kids?

I know it's patience - W will have to run out of things to say to OM, and right now OM is a shoulder to cry on. That's fine, and understood.

I guess I feel like there are only two options, and believe there's gotta be a better third option:
Option 1: Be hard-core: do not accept it, file divorce, take down all pictures, take off ring.

Option 2: Smile, and get shat upon, and just be there through thick and thin (smells like cake-eating?)

Option 3: ???

More ramblings!