Is the answer blowing in the wind?

[NikB]

Trixi - you are a strong and capable woman.

This is most definitely worth repeating.

[Loving_Life]

Hey Trixi,

Oh wow.... Yeah, I basically agree with everything that's being said here. The sitch won't change until you change. Right now, it's self-perpetuating. You'll be "stuck" in this, until you do something different(pull away). I think it's a lot harder for you to cope with this when you keep seeing him and talking to him all the time. It's obviously hurting you a lot! It will be a lot easier for you if start seeing him less, adding mystery, getting a life- doing all the DB tactics. DB is not about giving up or planning your divorce, DB is designed to help save your M (unless you decide you want to move on, then it is helpful in that way too-like for me-but it can work either way). Here's a question for you. What are you afraid of? What do you think is keeping you from following DB right now?

You've just got to trust that DB may work for your situation and give it a real, honest try. You will be ok- it's you who is charge of making the happiness for yourself, right!

From an outside point of view, it's kind of clear he's in a fog (drugs/alcohol) and he's probably got no intentions of commitment for your M, but of course he enjoys things how they are. He's been acting this way for a year, right? It's cake eating, no other way to say it. And as long as you're still available in this way to him, there's no reason for him to change. That's why DB is necessary.

Here's the final question- do you want your R to continue to be like it is right now? If the answer is no, I want more! (which I'm pretty sure you do)- then you have to act differently with him. You need to LRT, GAL, etc. Nothing will change until YOU change. And yes, one person changing can affect a relationship for the better. That's the entire premis behind DB.

I hope we're all encouraging here!

[Trixi]

Hey all. Well, H saw me on messenger yesterday and asked me to dinner and a movie last night-and I went. No worries- nothing happened. We did hold hands. At dinner he told me he was kept checking messenger to see if I was on after our big blow out on the 1st. He said if he saw me he was going to say "hi" and see how I was doing. (It's news to me to find out that he was essentially seeking me out.) I said "if you wanted to talk, why didn't you just call?" He said he didn't know and said again how he kept 'looking' for me. I said "Yeah, well-"Shun on"." (If you have seen The Office where Dwight 'shuns' Andy, you'll get the reference.) He sort of looked at me funny- like 'you would shun me??'

Saw Slumdog Millionare. That's a good movie. Got a little long in a couple spots, but I liked it.

After the movie, drove him back to his house, dropped him off. No big deal.

So, first let me address this:

When did "Game over" become "feet to the fire" though? And why?

They are actually the same thing, to a degree. (I acknowledge I was not successful in carrying thru with the Game Over/Feet to the Fire plan.) The 'Feet to the Fire' is an extension of Game Over. I have to hold his feet to the fire and make sure he actually brings something to the table for ME, instead of the old 'game' of living with the status quo of him cake eating.

What are you afraid of? What do you think is keeping you from following DB right now?

First-let me preface this with this is how I feel at my weakest moments. I don't always feel this way, but I must feel it often enough to keep me stuck. I know that since he already has survived one divorce, that he doesn't get stuck "crying in his beer" so to speak. His mindset is sort of "yeah, it sucks to lose that person, but I'm not going to get all depressed over it." So, I'm afraid if I walk away completely, he will forget about me and say "well, I didn't really want to lose her, but I'm not going to get too bummed out. I guess I'll just find someone else." On the face of it, I guess that's the "right" way to feel-- 'sucks to lose someone, but oh well...next!' but I have a hard time embracing that philosophy. I think that philosophy makes it easy for people to walk away from their commitments and to treat people as replaceable objects. I don't know. I am not articulating it very well--it's more of a feeling. I feel a little vulnerable even trying to explain it here because of how weak it looks. I keep re-reading what I have written and it looks so obvious that I should embrace that view--why do I buck it? Something seems out of focus and blurry. I am missing something. ....Maybe I don't like how cavalier the "oh well....next!" point of view is. When did people become so disposable?

H starts chantix today;quit day for smoking in a week (or less). My GF quit early because by day 3 she just didn't feel like smoking anymore. I am quite interested to see how this all plays out since it will impact RM, SS, me(potentially).... Ok, here's another "admission". When he said that the dates/flings he had were when his head was 'in a bad place', that concerns me that he is trying to get his head 'in a good place' so that he can go have "better" dates and flings. Like "Well, sure you're not easily replaceable when I am screwed up... but once I'm not screwed up, I'll find someone better." No, he didn't exactly say this, but he didn't NOT say it either.

Tonight I may go out to dinner and bowling; depends on how my showings go today and what I need to do to get ready for open house tomorrow and how tired I feel. The bowling thing will go to midnight and right now I just want to go to bed around 10. Yeah, I'm such a party animal.

I will finish this post saying that I hope that my disclosures don't make you give up on me. I don't *always* feel those ways. In fact, I often feel like I have learned to be a pretty awesome partner because of going thru this...

[NikB]

They are actually the same thing, to a degree. (I acknowledge I was not successful in carrying thru with the Game Over/Feet to the Fire plan.) The 'Feet to the Fire' is an extension of Game Over. I have to hold his feet to the fire and make sure he actually brings something to the table for ME, instead of the old 'game' of living with the status quo of him cake eating.

Hmm... I guess I misunderstood "Game Over" in that case.

I thought it was "I'm done dealing with your indecision, seeya. You want me, you come to me."

The "make sure he brings something to the table for me" isn't working. It hasn't worked for the past year+ and I doubt it's going to start working anytime soon. I don't think it'll even MAYBE start working until there's a threat he might lose you. When someone doesn't want to be in an R with you, or at least not a very committed/active one, demanding that they do MORE for you isn't going to work all that well.

If he's asking you "Trixi what can I do to make things better" that's one thing, but when it's "Trixi I'm not really sure I even want to be married to you" and the response is "Well that's fine but you better do XYZ for me..." it doesn't make sense, you know?

There is absolutely NOTHING that you can say to him that will stop the status quo or the cake eating. You can try, but until your actions and attitude change, he'll keep doing what he's doing. I truly believe the ONLY way to change this is through your actions.

So, I'm afraid if I walk away completely, he will forget about me and say "well, I didn't really want to lose her, but I'm not going to get too bummed out. I guess I'll just find someone else." On the face of it, I guess that's the "right" way to feel-- 'sucks to lose someone, but oh well...next!' but I have a hard time embracing that philosophy.

Ummm.... no, I don't think that's "right" at all and no way should you embrace it!! That is really, really sad in my opinion. I can't even imagine thinking that way. Unfortuanately, if that really IS how your H feels - you can't do anything about it.

Actually there are a couple of scary things about that train of thought. One is the "disposable-ness" of the person and the R, and the other is the "there has to be someone in my life" thing.

I do get what you're saying though. What sucks is that it pretty much falls under the "can't control it and can't control the other person" category.

Ok, here's another "admission". When he said that the dates/flings he had were when his head was 'in a bad place', that concerns me that he is trying to get his head 'in a good place' so that he can go have "better" dates and flings.

I didn't want to say it at the time because I figured you already had too much coming at you. But since you said it... this is exactly how I read it.

How long do you want to keep feeling like this? Like the "not quite good enough" person? It makes me so sad for you.

In fact, I often feel like I have learned to be a pretty awesome partner because of going thru this...

Agreed!! I just wish you loved and respected yourself enough to require the OTHER PERSON to be a good partner, too.

[Loving_Life]

So, I'm afraid if I walk away completely, he will forget about me and say "well, I didn't really want to lose her, but I'm not going to get too bummed out. I guess I'll just find someone else." On the face of it, I guess that's the "right" way to feel-- 'sucks to lose someone, but oh well...next!' but I have a hard time embracing that philosophy.

I think that since your H is still interested in getting together with you/ chatting,etc, there isn't much of a chance that he's going to immediately forget about your R or disappear. He also does seem to be a little thrown when you show the tiniest hint of moving on- Do you see that? So the GAL, combined with sticking up for yourself a little more should be a powerful combination that may help your M.
I agree completely w. Nik- I'd love to get your comments on my thread

[Trixi]

Nik- I forgot a part of the Game Over/Feet to the Fire thing--you didn't actually misunderstand anything--just that I forgot a major component. Game Over occurred when he was will to let me walk away ("I guess I would lean towards breaking things off")
So, here is my explanation of the GO/FTTF with the entire thought:
"They are actually the same thing, to a degree. (I acknowledge I was not successful in carrying thru with the Game Over/Feet to the Fire plan.) The 'Feet to the Fire' is an extension of Game Over. I have to hold his feet to the fire if he comes back to me and makes overtures like he wants to be back together and make sure he actually brings something to the table for ME, instead of the old 'game' of living with the status quo of him cake eating."
He has done this waffly thing before (as you know) and he (thus far) has always come back and I don't actually make him do much of anything to get back in my good graces.

Ummm.... no, I don't think that's "right" at all and no way should you embrace it!! That is really, really sad in my opinion. I can't even imagine thinking that way. Unfortuanately, if that really IS how your H feels - you can't do anything about it.

You don't know how happy that makes me to read that. I was really starting to think that maybe I was weak or screwed up. H said to me "Well, sure it hurts to lose someone and makes me sad. But I'm not going to get all depressed about it. There's a lot of other people in the world."

Over on Kalni's thread, someone had said if God takes something away from you, it's because He has something better in store for you. Kalni's (and Ali's) question was essentially "does that mean my H gets a better W?" It touched a nerve with me because this is all getting back to the "It's for the 'best'", "Lots of other people..." mentality. I mean, I know I don't want to look towards the future and feel depressed, but sheesh. I HATE the idea of H hooking up with someone "better" than me. I guess that makes me selfish and I must not truly love him? I would especially hate it if he hooks up with someone "Better" and I end up single and alone..where was the "it's for the best" for me? KWIM? (I am just being brutally honest here. I am in a particularly bad frame of mind these last couple days.)

I don't quite know how to back away from the sitch right now. H needs me to drive him to see SS in rehab. (No, I am not going to tell him to find another way there and I think it's important to SS that he see his parents support him and are a united front.)
Now H has told me that he doesn't want to "confuse" things with sex; that he wants to first focus on stopping smoking(and the rest) before 'dealing' with our situation. I can't "fault" him for that-- "gee, H, you know how you want your head to be clear as you consider what to do? I've decided I don't want to be around in support of that." huh?

meh. I guess I'm getting the cart in front of the horse. He hasn't even quit smoking. RM is still firmly in that house...

But I have to say, I can't help feeling like he has used me to 'get over me' this past year and now he is working on making us "just friends" so that he can leave me once and for all and not feel bad about it.
God that sucks.

[Loving_Life]

Over on Kalni's thread, someone had said if God takes something away from you, it's because He has something better in store for you. Kalni's (and Ali's) question was essentially "does that mean my H gets a better W?" It touched a nerve with me because this is all getting back to the "It's for the 'best'", "Lots of other people..." mentality. I mean, I know I don't want to look towards the future and feel depressed, but sheesh. I HATE the idea of H hooking up with someone "better" than me.

((Trixi)) I would say it definitely means something better is coming for YOU, not him!

[NikB]

(((((Trixi))))))

I'm sorry you're having such a rough few days. Seems to always happen to you when he gets that hook back in.

There are a lot of people in Newcomers who post about having to back away from the good AND the bad from their WAS, just to stay sane. "Backing away from the fire", "quit touching the hot stove," etc.

You don't know how happy that makes me to read that. I was really starting to think that maybe I was weak or screwed up.

NO, not at all... not in the slightest.

I try not to get into the "WAS bashing" too much since obviously we only see/hear part of the story here. But I mean, really... who is the more "screwed up" one? The one who's 44 acting like he's 19, smoking pot, defending his druggie room mate, choosing "music" over family and even his own kid... or the one who's trying desparately to keep her family together, help those she loves... ?

The ONLY thing that I'd argue is "weak/screwed up" is that this has gone on so long and you keep letting him jerk you around like this. It DOES make me very sad to see it but please don't beat yourself up for it. Work on finding that inner STRENGTH to get past it.

I HATE the idea of H hooking up with someone "better" than me. I guess that makes me selfish and I must not truly love him?

I know EXACTLY where you're coming from with this - really, I do. But you know what I realized during the worst parts of my sitch? "Better" IN HIS EYES does not necessarily mean "better person." Maybe he'll find a better "match"... maybe in his world, "better" than you (for him) means some tweaked out 19 year old willing to fawn at his feet while he plays his music in a smoky bar somewhere. Someone willing to act immature, do drugs with him, indulge his selfishness.

It doesn't make that person "better" than you, not by a longshot.

Or let's say he finds some wildly successful music producer / supermodel who's willing to sponsor him and help him "make it." Someone he can "use" in a different way than he's "used" you. Does that make her better? No.. it doesn't.

In my case - the OW was thinner, fitter, and physically able to do a lot of things with H that I just couldn't (i.e. skiing). I won't ever be able to do those things. She's a lot more "free spirited" and fun and whatever. Does that make her better than me? Maybe... at least for H, if that's what he wants.

Oh but wait... she's also responsible for "helping" dozens of men out of unhappy marriages. During the most "intense" part of their EA she was: 1. married and living at home with an H who had no idea she was unhappy, 2. had a "boyfriend" at work who had a wife and newborn baby at home, 3. had at least 2 other EAs going on, which resulted in 2 other divorces. That's just the start.

Is she better? Well.. it's a matter of perspective. And it'll ALWAYS be that way.

I would especially hate it if he hooks up with someone "Better" and I end up single and alone..where was the "it's for the best" for me? KWIM? (I am just being brutally honest here. I am in a particularly bad frame of mind these last couple days.)

I'm so sorry. Wish I could be there to give you a hug for real and kidnap you to go do something fun! (or, drink a cup of coffee and let ya cry it out for awhile... whatever works).

You really just don't know what the future holds, relationship wise. I don't think you can do much "worse" than what you've got going on now, though. You can make a great happy life for yourself - I truly do think that is better than this constant jerking around that is happening with your H! If someone comes along later and treats you well and joins you in your life - well, that's great. (especially if it turns out to be him )

Sure your H might find someone else for the short term - who knows, maybe he'll find the girl of his dreams. For now. 5 or 10 or 20 years down the line... could be a whole different story.

My Dad D'd my Mom around 15 years or so ago, now. He married someone much younger, thinner, prettier (on the surface, anyway, and due mostly to the 20 year age difference!). She was a successful business woman, great Mom, blah blah blah. I got along great with her. It was the stereotypical thing - he traded in my Mom for the newer younger model, she traded in her "loser" H for my financially successful (at the time) Dad.

My Mom ended up very bitter and angry - dated a few kinda icky guys but has pretty much sworn off men at this point I think.

Today... my Dad is still devastated and picking up the pieces 2 years after his "better" W walked out and filed for D. My Mom on the other hand pretty much hates men - but she's done a good job at building a peaceful, content life for herself even without that. If at this point she DID break down the walls and let a guy in, I can guarantee he would have to be a pretty amazing man.

I don't quite know how to back away from the sitch right now. H needs me to drive him to see SS in rehab. (No, I am not going to tell him to find another way there and I think it's important to SS that he see his parents support him and are a united front.)

I know... that does make it really difficult! The only thing I can really think of is the same stuff I suggested for your original drive. From your side, act "as if" it's over and done, decision is made. Friendly but not friends... co-parents for SS's sake. I think that's probably the best for your sanity, anyway.

I can't "fault" him for that-- "gee, H, you know how you want your head to be clear as you consider what to do? I've decided I don't want to be around in support of that." huh?

Ummm... I see where you're coming from, really I do, but it was his choice to separate, his choice to pretty much kick you out of your house and his life (most of the time), his choice to become involved with the alcohol and drugs and "cloud" his head.

Which has led to a LOT of emotional turmoil and pain for you. Nearly unbearable pain, at times, I'll bet.

And now you're expected (or expecting yourself) to support him in his "recovery" from all his bad choices?? In hopes that he MIGHT "reward" you by deciding to let you back in his life?

I think you can back WAY OFF and still support him. By driving to his IC appointments, if he asks, for example. But not by being his "standing by the door waiting" wife who's putting your entire life on hold for him.

But I have to say, I can't help feeling like he has used me to 'get over me' this past year and now he is working on making us "just friends" so that he can leave me once and for all and not feel bad about it.

I think a lot of it has been waffling and indecision on his part, but I also think you may be on to something here unfortunately.

Unless you are WILLING to be "just friends" with him if you're D'd, I think you need to put a stop to that NOW. It will be a lot harder later, after your "just friendship" is established. Know what I mean?

Your "boundary" might be "It's a romantic R, or it's co-parents and nothing more" - and use that to help guide you in how you interact/react when you're around him. That may or may not be your boundary - just throwing it out there as an example.

(((Trixi)))

You have WAY too much on your plate right now and I'm really sorry.

I swore to myself I was going to just check in real quick and not even post today but I just couldn't do it. Hugs to you.

[Loving_Life]

I would say it definitely means something better is coming for YOU, not him!

I'm going to add more to this too (in hopes of cheering you up!)-and tagging onto what Nik posted. (Great examples Nik, I'd be interested if you had any thoughts on my thread.) You're first and most important in this picture! (I'm first in my picture and so is everyone else on the BB). That means that you are the amazing one in the situation, you are a woman any healthy man would be happy to have. There is no other ow that would be a 'better' person than you. The WAS's, the people who give up on Rs without really learning or trying hard are never going to find some amazing person- they will be finding someone at their level and it may not last that long. This is all about your life, not his. If a time comes when he's not in the picture, its HIS LOSS, not yours. I believe that you would ultimately find a man that is as good as you are if you choose to be done with h. I think this is what the statements 'better' and 'for the best' ultimately mean. Not that D is great, but that if you have a @#% partner who refuses to commit to your R or work on your R and only cares about himself, and one that insists on a D, that something else more precious is out there available to you. You don't always know what shape or form it's coming in, but it does happen. It could be your h with a new attitude and new lease on life or it could be someone new who has no problems and loves you deeply. And you didn't just brush off your R in hopes of 'better', you've stuck it out for SO long. It's like opening your eyes to the rainbow of life that really exists, when you've previously just been stuck with junk. I hope this helps. I am really up and down lately too (and I have to keep bringing myself back up) Hugs.

[NikB]

Hi L_L - you are so right about Trixi! Amazing, and there is no way someone else is "better" than you. Not possible.

Often times it seems they find someone not even at their level but below it. It's most common to "affair down."

L_L - I also wanted to let you know I wasn't ignoring you. I can't do it tonight because H is in and out of the room (and doesn't know about DB and I'd prefer he not at least for now), but I will post to you soon! (it's taken me like 20 minutes just to post this much from having to "toggle" so much!).