new to db'ing, my first post ...

[noedphi]

I have learned a lot just by reading what you do, plus most of your responsess have had some great advice I will put to use. When I have time I am going back and re-reading your thread again. I have had some great advice from people on my thread and admire every 1 of them. They have helped me more than they will ever know. I am glad I started to explore on this site. It seems to help to explore.

The first thing I thought when I read your thread was " I will trade you " but then I don't know. It's just the afection thing for me. I could handle everything if I got half the afection you do.

I can not write as well as you do. It is defintly not as organized as your writing. If you check out my sitch you might have to piece a few things together from the first and second thread. I would appreciate yours or anybody elses thoughts and comments.

[robx]

I really value your response and I will read it daily to keep me focused on what needs to be done, thank you very much for taking the time in writing so much, it wasn't long winded or verbose - it may be the kick in the pants that I've been needing to get my act together and if for nothing else, to be the kind of man I've always wanted to be.

Again thank you very much!!!

[robx]

I will definitely check out your posts and reply back with my own experiences and what not. I read that part where you said you could take everything happening if you got half the affection I rec'd from my "walk away spouse/wife" WAW/WAS (still learning these acronyms, not comfortable enough to use them though). The problem with getting a little bit of affection is that lulls you into a fake sense of security, it's almost like being teased. Nice one day, angry another, it is very hard to handle that yo-yo effect, up & down, up & down, it is very trying to deal with that constantly. And possibly like spellfire has mentioned, it could be testing (oh that damn testing, seriously I'll be honest, it's not fun - it's like being in a lab under observation with scientists making notes based on your actions).

I am definitely impatient, I want my marriage back now, yes it's me being honest and it is hard living without my family the way I had pictured it. I put up a good front for my kids, I make sure that they feel loved, know that they're loved, do things with them constantly and pretty much try to make them feel good during what is a tough time for them as well (my little girl is 7, my boy is 5) and although my boy is pretty much oblivious to what is happening (thank God), my little girl feels it and I do see her being sad & crying a fair amount because she just wants her family back and I'll be honest, she does make me very "misty" when she cries and feels down.

It is also hard that when my wife shows affection during certain periods of time and acts nicely and then other periods of time when she hooks up with the "divorced wives club" (that's what I call them, and they tell her that being single is just so much better and she has so much more freedom to do whatever) and they go clubbing and dress for effect to get attention from men at bars & clubs and I hear about it later from her or through others and it really just stirs up my insides, it makes that spot in my lower stomach feel horrible (I call it my warning center, it acts up when I feel that someone is doing something wrong to me to hurt me). It's that yo-yo effect that is very hard and makes it very hard for me to want to trust her and continue any efforts to reconcile and do this db work on my own.

There is a downside to the affection, I do feel used sometimes, it's like I'm there for that purpose only when she isn't seeking attention from other people/men - kind of like when she is taking a break from that other side of her life.

That's why I brought up the dating as a possible method to wake them up: that you're not sitting at home waiting for them to come back, that your life is just as important and that they aren't the only ones that can have a good time and enjoy attention from other people.

In the end, it can all be so very clear and then it can switch in an instant and be very confusing.

I'm looking for clarity in my life so that my mind isn't affected as much by external influences to allow me to see what needs to be done and focus on getting it done.

Thanks again to everyone for your responses thus far, they are all very valuable to me.

[Twice-2-Her]

Ian:

Great post and it helped me to clarify my thoughts as well.

Thank you from all of us who lurk around even if we have threads, just looking for that one tip, idea, comment that helps bring it clear for us.

Rob, you said it great, it is all so clear and then the next minute, so confused. I too have a WAS who is close then far. She told me, it seems if I'm nice to you, then you act like nothing is wrong. I think I'm GAL and try to be positive and then she comes back with Debbie Downer and then I mope around.

I feel I too would be better with minimal contact than the roller coaster.

You have been at this a lot longer than I have and not sure I could go as far as you have without throwing in the towel. I support your in and admire your ability. This board helps a lot.

Twice

My Story

[sofaraway]

Hey Rob, I want to clarify something to you. I said don't date, that does not mean do not go out and have fun. It does not mean do not go to bars and dancing. It means do these things as a married man. Social interaction can do wonders for self esteem and in keeping your morale up.

Believe me, it has the same affect on the WAS to see you getting dressed up to go out even if your intentions are pure. Just as you have no idea what she is doing when she goes out, she has no idea about you either.

I am definitely impatient, I want my marriage back now, yes it's me being honest and it is hard living without my family the way I had pictured it.

I am in no way a bible thumper, in fact truth be told I am a reformed Jew. However, I want to recommend that you read the story of JOB, old testament. Or you can get the book "Why bad things happen to good people" by Harold Kushner and focus on chapter one. It's about building patience through faith and trust in a higher power.

After doing this for over a year I am sure you are aware that this is all about patience and faith.

As far as how you are feeling about the positive attention, you have to change your mindset and understand that they flip like a light switch. You have to lower your expectations and enjoy the moments that you do get without expectations of anything more. If you cannot do that then you need to set some personal boundaries of how far you will allow it to go without having a negative affect on you.


Take care Rob and focus on what you can change, accept what you cannot, and try your best to recognize the difference.



Ian

[robx]

Even though it seems like I've been at this for quite some time, I've only recently been actively db'ing correctly.

I made all the typical mistakes at first: professed my undying love, told her I would change, told her I would do anything to fix this, etc. etc. Basically confirmed to her how much low self-esteem I had and how little self-respect I had that I would plead & beg and in doing so pretty much validated that it was the right thing for her to do: how can your wife trust & want to be with someone who would show such weak character & strength?

Well alot has changed since then and that's probably what got her starting to show some attraction for me again. Seriously it's not alot and we are nowhere near reconciled and I can't foretell the future to say that it's a done deal and we will get back together.

But I honestly feel better about the person I am now vs. the person I was back then.

- I don't grovel, beg or plead
- if she starts a fight and tries to bring me down or insult me, I pretty much either hang up the phone (if we're on the phone when this happens) and tell her that I won't argue endlessly over the phone and I also tell her that I'm not going to tolerate that kind of behavior anymore
- I used to stand by and let her say things or reveal things to me that made me terribly uncomfortable inside. An example of this is when she goes out with her female friends (the "divorced wives club" who make divorce a fun & fashionable thing) to the clubs and she then talks about all the hot guys they saw and the attention they rec'd from these other men, talking to them, having drinks with them, etc. I used to feel like a big wimp and I would just suffer so much inside when I heard this stuff come out of her mouth.

That was the turning point in this situation and I'll give you some more details in my situation.

- I moved out in January 2008 because she told me to. She told me in November 2007 that it was over and my begging & pleading to reconsider and go for marriage counselling fell on deaf ears. She wasn't a nice person to begin with but she turned into someone evil, the rejection I felt was incredible: I heard all of the regular stuff: I don't love you, maybe I never did love you, I married you because my parents pushed me in your direction, I love you but I'm not in love with you, I will have love for you because we have such a long history, etc. etc. All of the stuff that pretty much rips your heart in two (well it did for me). Like I mentioned, I moved out, with my tail between my legs, we had just purchased that home 4 months earlier and I had spent those 4 months personally renovating that home from the dump that it was to something very comfortable to live in and a month after moving in, we were separated and I was out a couple of months later. I got an apartment nearby and I continued to pay the mortgage, utility bills, property taxes, etc. on that home while living nearby and paying my apart.rent. It was tough on me mentally, emotionally, financially, you named it, every way you can think of. I spent 6+ months in counselling (personal counselling and counselling for individuals who are going through separation/divorce). During that time I had the love of a few great friends, my children and my work to keep me going. Started going to the gym, lost @ 30-40 pounds went from a size 38 waist back to a size 32 waist, gained a fair amount of muscle on my frame (I worked out regularly when I was younger @ 18-20, my body remembered all of this stuff @ 36-37 years of age and I obviously had alot more free time to work out now). I visited the kids based on her schedule and would take them to stay with me on the occasional weekend when she wanted to go out or have friends over for parties (that's another thing that killed me, parties happening at the home that I paid for and renovated that I wasn't allowed to attend or enjoy). For six months this went on and she never let up on me, she was always angry & moody around me, used foul language, even told me she hated me, told me she would never be with me again and told me to give up my attempts. She worked part-time during all of this, paid for very little (basically her own expenses and nothing else). In May she took the kids to visit her brother & parents in another city for 2 weeks, I offered to help bring her to the airport so that I could say goodbye to the kids: that morning when I arrived to pick them up, she was extremely foul with me and swore at me for some dumb reason. I was torn up because I wouldn't see my kids for 2 weeks and she was still being rotten to me and something finally clicked in me: I am wasting my life on this person, she is always going to be mean to me, I had low self-esteem all of my life based on some childhood abuse issues (which I only told her about a few years earlier) and she knew about my self-esteem and my personal issues and yet she would continue to hurt me and I just couldn't take it anymore. I drove her to the airport, said goodbye to my kids (the kind of hugs & kisses you never want to let go of), wished her a good time and a safe flight and when I returned later on to my lonely apartment, the realization dawned on me that I shouldn't be living there - I should be living at home, my home, the home I built for my family, my children and for me. I packed my stuff and moved back while she & the kids were out of town and no I never told her or asked for her permission, I have alot of value, respect & self esteem, I don't need her permission. When she got back, she flipped (literally) and was angrier than I had ever experienced (and trust me, there have been experiences). I told her that I was back for good and that I wanted her to leave and this totally turned her world upside down.

That's when I learned that having love for yourself, self-esteem, self-value, self-respect are not only important qualities to have for yourself - they are attractive qualities for your spouse/girlfriend to witness on a regular basis.

It's not attractive or magnetic to allow your spouse to walk all over you.

There is so much more to write here, I hope I'm able to submit this long winded post, LOL!

[robx]

Anyways I moved back in and that's when she finally realized that I wouldn't be bullied anymore.

I also told her that me having access to the kids based on her schedule wouldn't work anymore for me. When she had them, she basically offloaded them to her parents who lived nearby: they saw them more than I did and they were getting tired of it also (even though they wouldn't admit it - well actually they did several times).

I told her I wanted her to move out and after several months, I finally got her to move in with her parents which she hates. She doesn't have the financial means to support herself, she quit her last part-time job and didn't work for several months. During this time I realized that she wasn't just dealing with depression (which may be a large part of our problems), the therapist we did see one time told us that she was suffering from some form of biological depression (based on indicators like post partem depression after having each of our kids). She is prone to regular bouts of anger, then sadness, then being happy. Sometimes i'm lucky and I'm on the receiving end of some of that good energy but I'm usually on the receiving end of the anger & sadness.

For such a long time I allowed her to beat me up verbally, mentally & emotionally. I worked full-time, took care of the finances, did the lion's share of the household chores (cleaning, cooking, laundry, etc.) and when I would discuss this with her she would tear into me and tell me it didn't matter that I did everything. I have learned one universal truth, you cannot argue with women: they are too good at it and they usually win because men just aren't good at it. You end up feeling stupid (or at least I did every time) and in the end whatever logic you had to start the discussion was turned around and I wondered what the heck happened? If she spent every dime we had and I brought it up, it got turned around that I was poor at managing the finances. I even offered for her to take care of the finances and I wouldn't spend 1 red cent for a few months just to show that I wasn't the cause of our debt but she would never help with that, she couldn't care less.

Another problem is that she had low self-esteem and because I had very low self-esteem myself, the power struggle we had kept her on top. Bullies pick on weaker people when they're allowed because it pumps up their self-esteem to bully people with lower self-esteem - it allows them to get away with crap that normal people would never tolerate.

She is physically attractive and during the marriage I gained weight and felt even poorer about myself. She loves external validation: getting attention from other men (flirting with them,etc.) so much so that sometimes it appeared to be an addiction to her and when I brought it up, an argument would ensue and I would be on the losing end of it and somehow feel stupid for bringing it up. Her self esteem would get pumped up at my expense when she got attention from other guys (sometimes in front of me, sometimes even laughing at me when she knew it hurt me inside), it became a habit for her, and like alot of habits, a tough one to break. And when she was getting this attention from other guys she would experience withdrawal symptoms and feel ugly, useless, miserable, etc. She and her friends actually enjoy having drunk guys suck up to them when they go out to the bars/clubs.

That was the last straw in December, I finally mustered up the courage to tell her to leave the home when she bragged about this in front of me to her friends. When I finally let her have it and told her that I wanted her to leave the home, she was all surprised ("I don't understand, this never bothered you before, why are you so angry?")

This is probably the reverse of any DB technique that I've heard of on this site. I asked my wife who had left me to leave the home and I actually got her to do it.

She was sad, very sad, crying and the whole bit. I packed her things for her, put boxes & luggage into her vehicle, emptied the closets, moved backed into the master bedroom.

You are probably reading this and saying "What the !@#$%!".

Let me clear up a few things:

- Yes I want my marriage to work.
- Yes I love my wife very much (you have no idea how much)
- she has never admitted it to me but she may have had some type of relationship while we've been separated, you can tell when you overhear some phone calls how she talked to her friends and how she talked to "other" people - there is a subtle difference
- I love my children very much and want our family to be whole
- I don't want a marriage just for my children
- I want a marriage because my wife loves me and truly respects me and won't walk all over me like a doormat
- If I don't stand up for myself, all of the crap that my children have witnessed me take from my wife will be mirrored in their own lives, I'm sure of it. I came from a broken home, so did my wife and we pretty much duplicated that kind of crap in our own marriage.
- I told my wife in plain english that the way she treated me is horrible and that regardless if I was a weak man or not, she made the conscious decision to take advantage of that and to hurt me and treat me poorly and it's the truth
- I also told her to look at her 5 year old son & 7 year old daughter: the most important human beings in our lives and I told her imagine your son being in a relationship with a woman who takes advantage of him and walks all over him. I told her to imagine her daughter being mean and crude and bitter and being in the same time of relationship we had. It was the first time in any argument that she actually had no response for - seriously the first time ever!

I won't tolerate being walked all over ever again, be it with her or any one else in the future. I'm not going to walk around guarded and be the kind of person to attack first either but I'm going to establish boundaries and make sure they are respected and above all make sure that I love myself and respect myself and keep my self-esteem high. That is something any spouse in a troubled marriage should be doing. Don't ever grovel, beg or plead with your spouse when someone decides to end the marriage. You may not have been a perfect spouse but ever relationship has a dual responsibility: there are two of you, always remember that.

I have also stopped bringing up the past, it's worthless to debate who did what in the past - that time is over, all you have is the present and you are in control of how you spend that time. My wife now talks about the past alot, possibly in attempts to show what I've done bad and why she acted the way she did. I won't argue with her though, if has some points that have merit, I will agree with her and not defend myself as long as she is civil (and I have found that she sometimes oddly enough comes to my defense when I agree with her and tell her I was very poor at what I did).

OK, like a mentioned a few posts back, I'm very yappy today, sometimes the stuff just wants to come out, being a quick typer doesn't hurt either LOL!

Any comments or feedback are appreciated.

[spellfire]

Forgive me if I am repeating myself, I often lose track of what I recommend to who. In addition to DB and/or DR, please get and read the following books:

"No More Mr Nice Guy" by Robert Glover
"Way of the Superior Man" by David Deida
"Hold on to Your N.U.T.S." by Wayne Levine

I found them to be very empowering. I have never been one to let anyone walk all over me (W would say I am as stubborn as a mule in fact), but I still found a lot of good information. I think you stand to benefit even more than I did from these three books.

You are probably reading this and saying "What the !@#$%!".

Au contraire, I was actually saying "yeah, that the way to do it!"

[robx]

I really look forward to your responses Mike, thanks for letting me know I'm not crazy with how things have been going!!!

- I'll definitely check out those books, I've been hearing alot about David Deida and the others sound very interesting too!

My new found "manhood" if you want to call it that (seriously that sounds cheesy or dirty, which ever way you read it), doesn't mean that I'm going to be this macho a$$hole, it just means that I finally think highly of myself, have a direction in my life and I'm enjoying life and enjoying the certain amount of control that I have in my life (and letting go of the need to have control in other people's lives) and knowing that I'm responsible for my own happiness - it's definitely something I have control over and can manifest in my life if I put my mind to it. Doing so sets a good example for my kids which makes me happy to know that I'm finally the positive role model they need in life and they will know life is what you make it and I'm going to make it a good one for me and for my family.

[sandi2]

Hi Robx, I’m Sandi2. I was almost a WAW but thanks to this board and some great people who stuck with me, got my head on straight and I am still in my M.

I have been scanning over your posts and it sounds like a lot of other relationships that I have read on this very board. I don’t know a lot about bipolar but I have experienced the other. I am no doctor but I did not know that throwing a fit was a sign of depression. I personally think that your wife conveniently uses that for her excuse for poor behavior whenever she wants to act like a b*tch. Apparently her parents must have allowed her to get away with it and then you M her and was afraid of losing her, therefore, you allowed her to get away with it. Now, when a person has had that much power in a family, don’t think for a second that they are going to give it up easily.

Being different or even opposite from each other does not necessarily mean that you cannot have a successful M. My H and I are very different but I suppose as the years go by, we get more alike. But, anyway, it just depends on how badly the couple wants to work on the relationship. One person can turn the M around to be good, but in a case like yours, it would be very, very difficult. I am not saying that it would be impossible, but very difficult.

I was ready to suggest that there was another person involved by your second post, but I thought I better hold out and read the thread through, and now, sure enough it is coming to the surface. You know what? If I had to guess at what kind of guy she would go for, I would say she would go for a bad boy that treated her like crap. Yep! Go figure. But, that is how it works. She acts like some hellhound and you are trying to get along with her b/c she has some…..biological depression(?? Does this mean the kids will get it too?) and she will fall all over herself for the man that treats her like she is nobody. You want to know why? You already know why, don’t you? She likes him b/c he will not let her get by with a thing……not one thing. If you had been that way from the beginning, then she probably would have fell all over you. I’m not saying for you to be mean or a bad person, but if you stand any chance at all, you are going to have to be tough…..and I mean very tough on her or she will eat you up alive. She is used to being the queen bee and having everything the way she wants it and she will either get mad and throw a fit, or she will be nice….just to throw you for a loop….or she may even throw in a little sex now and then. But, the roller coaster ride just keeps on going.

I think you need to lay down some very stiff boundaries about what you will tolerate and what you won’t. But, your problem is that you still care way too much and she can see that. So, just have your own set of rules that YOU live by, b/c you can’t control her and you sure can’t make her live by your rules. However, she has been rewarded for bad behavior for so long until I honestly do not know if there is hope. If you stop rewarding her for bad behavior, and she starts having to suffer the consequences for when she acts terrible to you, then you may start to see her change…..if she wants to be a part of your life badly enough. If she doesn’t want you to be a part of her life, then she won’t try. She will try to “play” you, but she won’t put forth the right effort toward a good relationship.

I am very glad that you woke up and realized that you did not respect yourself and now like yourself. It took hard work to get to where you are now. However, I don’t think she has enough sense to know that she has a good man. I think she will continue to try to walk on you every chance she gets. As I said, she went for too many years disrespecting you in every way possible. I really don’t know if that can be redeemed or not. It would be great if she got her eyes open and would see you with new eyes and see the man you are now, but do you really think she will?

You had asked about whether or not you should pay for her meal when she goes out with you and the kids. I don’t know that I have ever told anyone this…..I can’t remember it, but I think you should not do anything for her like that or do anything else with her....period (not for a looong time). The reason I say that is b/c she “expects” you to do that. She expects you to be the nice guy. I’ve heard other men talk about a book “Hold on to Your N.U.T.S.” Maybe you should check it out. In the meantime, I think you should stop anything and everything that you have always done that she expected you to do. Throw her for a loop for a change. I personally think if you were to act as if you could care less what she did, and you were to drop the rope and moved on with your life…..then and only then will you see her start to draw closer to you. At first, it will be out of sheer curiosity to figure out what you are doing. So, you would have to be clever and consistent. She will want what she can’t have. I think that is part of the sex thing....just to see if she can still get it. So, stop being her toy.

She has always had you and she knows that. So, why not make her think that you are moving forward in your life and you don’t care what she does. Do you think it would get her attention? It may not at first if she thinks it is a game you are playing, so you would have to make a believer out of her. The thing I am wondering is if YOU have what it takes to stick to it.

You see, she needs to want you really, really bad. She needs to work her a$$ off to get you back. But, if all she has to do is wiggle her little a$$ in your face…..then that won’t work at all! So, you would certainly have to be self-controlled and not allow her to work you like a puppet.

There is always hope, but being smart enough to know what to do and clever enough to know how to do it is the secret.

Take care,
Sandi2