WAW: Watching & Waiting (part deux)

[Bridgestone]

As I told you we men, or atleast me, can accept that my actions were/ are bad because they can be changed

The question I, & some other women I know have; when does the underlying philosophy of WHY you do or don't do something change, so the action (or lack of that action) is in alignment with philosophy?

If thoughts precede behaviours, then should the thoughts that dictate the behaviours change as well?


That's why the Stosny stuff, I think makes so much sense.. not only do you tap into YOUR own core value/hurt and the behaviour you choose based on that, but you take into account your PARTNERS core value/hurt once you understand it.


Your thoughts?

I believe your H probably will feel the same way, just speculating here. But there is a world of difference here trust me and you will get a more positive reaction from him if you make it out as his actions and not him.

No I think you have a point. When I criticize or applaud I need to make it about specific behaviours I have seen him exhibit, not about 'who' he is.

What I'm also looking for is an understanding for when it appropriate to examine someone else's motivation or philosophy about 'why' they do something.

I'm looking for more than 'dog training'. I can train my dog, through rewards & criticisms, to exhibit the behaviour of staying in my yard. He doesn't have to understand the 'why' of the behaviour to exhibit it.

I want to be intimate enough with a partner to share openly & honestly our repsective 'why's'.

To be able to discuss differences and moderate accordingly. If the differences are too big & moderation becomes excessive.. that to me is where there are 'irreconcilable differences' in an R.

[AJM]

"I'm looking for more than 'dog training'. I can train my dog, through rewards & criticisms, to exhibit the behaviour of staying in my yard. He doesn't have to understand the 'why' of the behaviour to exhibit it."

I disagree. Even a dog needs to know why even if that "why" is that they get positive reinforcement if they do what your will asks them to do.

I don't think you want a dog though. I think you want a partner. Partners have figured out how to accept, embrace, and flourish in each other's differences and still remain partners. You can interchange partner and friend and spouse for that sentence.

It seems to me that you and H are trying to figure out how to get along. You are both trying to figure out how to be a person. How to interact and respect each other together or separate.

Am I oversimplifying?

AJ

[Bridgestone]

I disagree. Even a dog needs to know why even if that "why" is that they get positive reinforcement if they do what your will asks them to do.

However, the 'why' for me is NOT to reward the dog for staying in the yard.. the 'why' for me is to keep him safe.

The 'why' to the dog is to earn the reward and do AS I WILL.

If the dog only thought to the 'why' is that he's being rewarded & he likes the reward he may continue to do the behaviour, until the dog begins to think the 'why' might be controlling and not an equal relationship, as he doesn't understand the intentions of keeping in the yard in the first place.

I don't think you want a dog though. I think you want a partner. Partners have figured out how to accept, embrace, and flourish in each other's differences and still remain partners. You can interchange partner and friend and spouse for that sentence.

I agree

You are both trying to figure out how to be a person. How to interact and respect each other together or separate.

I think we are looking at each other as 'new people' as we have grown & gotten healthier...and seeing how we interact & respect each other as 'new' people.

Thanks for asking so I can clarify my thoughts.
Peace
Bridge

[AJM]

"However, the 'why' for me is NOT to reward the dog for staying in the yard.. the 'why' for me is to keep him safe.

The 'why' to the dog is to earn the reward and do AS I WILL.

If the dog only thought to the 'why' is that he's being rewarded & he likes the reward he may continue to do the behaviour, until the dog begins to think the 'why' might be controlling and not an equal relationship, as he doesn't understand the intentions of keeping in the yard in the first place."

You strike me as a highly controlling person. Perhaps I'm wrong and you do really want a dog, although in human form. Is it possible your H wasn't able to articulate his feelings very well and when you tried to control him (consciously or sub) his reaction was less than appropriate to and towards you?

In your posts, I hear you talking about you both, but I see you talking about him and his faults mostly. I'm curious about that. I'm wondering if a relationship is possible if only one direction like that. Responsibility is a tough thing, I know. I realize that you have to have two people in the relationship that are both trying. I realize that it can feel like you are even if you are not.

I'm just curious. You don't have to answer if you do not want to.

In my own situation, my W and her brother and mother all have a tendency to look for the one negative to justify their reasons for their behavior. She's done it. It surprised her when I changed that behavior. It was negative behavior on my part. I'm not perfect and I'm not beyond changing. I don't think you're beyond changing either and I think I hear that you don't really want to leave. Nor do you really want your H to let you go. You fight it. You are fighting for control of not just yourself but of him from the sound of it. My WAS seems to be doing similar although not likely for the same reasons.

Did I miss something you've already stated? Did I miss what's going on? I'm trying to catch up.

AJ

[Distressed67]

Bridge,

I am working on a responce to your ealier post. Been a very busy weekend for me.

Have a great day,

Tim

[Distressed67]

As I told you we men, or atleast me, can accept that my actions were/ are bad because they can be changed

The question I, & some other women I know have; when does the underlying philosophy of WHY you do or don't do something change, so the action (or lack of that action) is in alignment with philosophy?

If thoughts precede behaviours, then should the thoughts that dictate the behaviours change as well?


That's why the Stosny stuff, I think makes so much sense.. not only do you tap into YOUR own core value/hurt and the behaviour you choose based on that, but you take into account your PARTNERS core value/hurt once you understand it.


Your thoughts?

I'm not sure I exactly understand what you are asking but I think what you and the other ladies want to know is when do we men start taking responsibility for our actions and correct them not just because you want us to but because we are aware they are wrong and are not happy with them and want to change and grow as a person for us, correct.

I can only speak for myself but I went through most of my adult life thinking that my sole responsibility was to my family and if we had a house, car, money, stuff and if they were happy than I was a success and that I should be happy. Unfortunately that is not the case because what happened to me is I allowed all these outside influences to dictate not only what I did but how I felt and then in return blamed them for my unhappiness. My W, my job, my boss, my co-workes etc.

I was going through life on cruse control but I was dying on the inside. I knew my W was unhappy and I knew that I was unhappy but I had no idea how to change it. I knew my anger was my main problem and had prayed that I could get it under control but I never really worked at it. I am not sure what went off inside me, it could have been that I was about to turn 40 and I felt so empty and alone that I need to do something about it.

I finally said enough was enough and took my first step in taking back my life. Of course my W giving me the ILYNILWY speech a couple of months later helped also. I started to read books on anger management and relationships. I think I was just ready to change and to do whatever it takes to save my M. However my C made me realize along with the books that I was reading at the time that I must improve myself first.

I had to love myself for others to love me and I did not at that time. You and the other ladies need to realize as I need to also that we cannot force our S to change or to improve themselves. Just as you wish that your H would wake up and realize that R take work and both people need to work not only on the M/R they must work on themselves also, I would like my W to do the same.

I don’t know exactly what made me wake up and I don’t know what will make your H wake up but as long as you see improvement in how he treats you and if he is starting to take responsibility for his actions then I say that he is slowly waking up. We men are thick and it takes a lot to get us to look at ourselves and to change ourselves but once we do get started and are aware of the problem we are very good at doing what is necessary to make the M/R work. At least I am. If they admit there is a problem and see their roll in it then I say you are both well on your way to improving your R.

I believe your H probably will feel the same way, just speculating here. But there is a world of difference here trust me and you will get a more positive reaction from him if you make it out as his actions and not him.

No I think you have a point. When I criticize or applaud I need to make it about specific behaviours I have seen him exhibit, not about 'who' he is.

What I'm also looking for is an understanding for when it appropriate to examine someone else's motivation or philosophy about 'why' they do something.

I'm looking for more than 'dog training'. I can train my dog, through rewards & criticisms, to exhibit the behaviour of staying in my yard. He doesn't have to understand the 'why' of the behaviour to exhibit it.

I want to be intimate enough with a partner to share openly & honestly our repsective 'why's'.

To be able to discuss differences and moderate accordingly. If the differences are too big & moderation becomes excessive.. that to me is where there are 'irreconcilable differences' in an R.

Bridge,

I think you are looking at this all wrong. You are not trying to train a dog and I think a lot of times that is how women view us men. Smacking us on the nose with a newspaper (denying us sex/ pulling away) when you think we did not do something you wanted or did something you did not want us to do, is not how to treat a man. The more you try and force the issue or control our behavior the more we will resist and the more frustrated you will become and the more you will pull away and disconnect from us.

It’s a vicious cycle of control, power and resistance we all get into.

This is where communication comes in and why I keep saying to my W that we need to learn how to do this. I understand your problem here with communicating with us because we are very thick and get stuck in a routine and its hard for us to get out of. But there is a better way then “trying to train us” as you put it.

All of us, men and women need to learn that each of us communicate differently and getting across what we actually mean is difficult. I know in my own R that if I say something and my W takes it the wrong way she shuts down and there is nothing I can say or do to get her out of it. And she can say something that I take the wrong way and I get upset. I don’t do that very often anymore because I try and look at what she means over what she is saying.

Both parties need to be willing to change how we interact with each other if anything is going to change. Also both people need to realize that there are things we are not going to understand about each other but have to accept them as they way it is. We all need to learn to look past the words and see the true meaning behind them and not take such offense to what is being said.

How you do that I cannot say but from what you have posted and said to me it sounds like you are doing a good job of trying to get him to understand this. You need to be patient and keep in mind that he has years of doing it his way and it will take time and effort on his and your part to change and come to some sort of compromise that you both can live with.

And to me that is what it comes down to. Each person must give something and compromise in order for the R/M to succeed and move forward. When it turns into a win/ lose situation, one person may win but the ultimate loser is the M/R.

I hope this make some sort of sense and I understand what you were asking.

Take care,

Tim

[Bridgestone]

You strike me as a highly controlling person. Perhaps I'm wrong and you do really want a dog, although in human form.

I think you & are saying the same thing.. I don't want a dog.. that was my point to start with. I don't want to control someone else's behaviour through reward & punishment. They need to be responsible for their own actions AND be self aware enough to recognize how their action affect them & others in their lives.

I think you are reading my stuff wrong.. I was asking Tim about 'rewarding' my H's behaviour and make the analogy of rewarding a dog. I DON"T WANT to DO this, just to get a repeat of the behaviour. I want him to understand WHY that action typifies a deeper understanding of what I find kind, compassionate, caring... and for it to matter to HIM, so HE chooses to continue to do it without the reward as a compassionate caring partner in my life.

Does it sound controlling to state what I want my partner to do? I want him to understand... I want him to choose... I want it to matter to him... is that what sounds controlling??

As this discussion has progressed it seems to have taken on a life of it's own and it's not bringing out the point I wanted it to when it started, as I'm responding to "out of context" points that are not what I think.

There might be some that would consider me controlling. I know my H has called me that in the past. But as his IC told us in MC.. most abusive men he has worked with blame their wives 'controlling behaviour' for their abusive outbursts & actions.

I have grown & changed, I can control my environment, I can't/shouldn't control others. However, I will do what I need, within my own personal values, to provide myself personal safety... that includes leaving an abusive situation.

Is it possible your H was't able to articulate his feelings very well and when you tried to control him (consciously or sub) his reaction was less than appropriate to and towards you?

Yeah.. the verbal & physical abuse was less than appropriate, as was my managing his emotions so the kids & I were emotionally 'safe'.

I'm wondering if a relationship is possible if only one direction like that.

Nope.. that is one of the reasons why I left, me working on me and him not working on him, getting healthy, was just one way..

I was outgrowing him...it frustrated him more (because I wasn't taking his blame anymore for his core hurts) bringing out the rage even more.. eventually deteriorting into physical restraint & abuse...these are his words BTW, not mine.

Responsibility is a tough thing, I know. I realize that you have to have two people in the relationship that are both trying. I realize that it can feel like you are even if you are not.

Are you implying I"m not? Trying what? Intimidation? Threats? Guilt? Growth? Compassion? "trying" is very vague.

In my own situation, my W and her brother and mother all have a tendency to look for the one negative to justify their reasons for their behavior. She's done it. It surprised her when I changed that behavior. It was negative behavior on my part. I'm not perfect and I'm not beyond changing.

If you don't know 'why' you changed it, then she just 'trained' you... and for the WAS, the fear that the change is just training, because of punishment (WAS leaving) or for the reward (the WAS returning), is a very big fear.

I don't think you're beyond changing either and I think I hear that you don't really want to leave.

Already did.

Nor do you really want your H to let you go. You fight it. You are fighting for control of not just yourself but of him from the sound of it.

Nope.. I'm fighting the inevitable inertia & chaos that sends me spinning back into old destructive patterns. I'm fighting the urge to wallow in my core hurts and be resentful. I'm fighting to be compassionate, kind, empathetic, assertive, without being co-dependent.

Did I miss something you've already stated? Did I miss what's going on?

I don't know I'm not a mind reader, nor do I play one on TV... I have 3 threads.. not sure how far you have gotten??

Peace
Bridge

[lodo]

whoa - look at how long all these posts are! Hey bridge, stopped by to say hi. Uhmm, could you give a synopsis? lol

Hope you're doing okay. lodo

[AJM]

I may have misunderstood then.
Trying = trying to make things work in a relationship.

"I think you are reading my stuff wrong.. I was asking Tim about 'rewarding' my H's behaviour and make the analogy of rewarding a dog. I DON"T WANT to DO this, just to get a repeat of the behaviour. I want him to understand WHY that action typifies a deeper understanding of what I find kind, compassionate, caring... and for it to matter to HIM, so HE chooses to continue to do it without the reward as a compassionate caring partner in my life."

I think that we "train" each other in relationships. We train one another how we want to be treated because nobody is a mind reader.

I see that you left. I suggested you didn't want to. I stand by that.

Thanks for clarifying. It helps.

AJ

[Bridgestone]

As I told you we men, or atleast me, can accept that my actions were/ are bad because they can be changed

The question I, & some other women I know have; when does the underlying philosophy of WHY you do or don't do something change, so the action (or lack of that action) is in alignment with philosophy?If thoughts precede behaviours, then should the thoughts that dictate the behaviours change as well?

I'm not sure I exactly understand what you are asking but I think what you and the other ladies want to know is when do we men start taking responsibility for our actions and correct them not just because you want us to but because we are aware they are wrong and are not happy with them and want to change and grow as a person for us, correct.

yep.. that was what I wanted to know. We all want validation from our loved ones that an action we take 'matters' to that special someone. I can change a lot of behaviours if it adds to their happiness and still be true to my core values.

I don't want to have to 'train' a partner. I want an open exchange & collaboration for how two people can negotiate the chaos of day-to-day life of jobs, kids, bills, health, aging parents, sex, household chores, etc and still feel good about themselves & each other at the end of the day.

I think I was just ready to change and to do whatever it takes to save my M. However my C made me realize along with the books that I was reading at the time that I must improve myself first.

exactly...

You and the other ladies need to realize as I need to also that we cannot force our S to change or to improve themselves.

I agree we can't force it. But we can ask for those changes, we state what we want, and as Cookie says you can respond with a yes, no or sucks to be you. If you say 'yes', then I can support, encourage, provide feedback, be the best me I can be so we can be healthy together and see what kind of R we can create based on compassionate, kind, caring interactions instead of resentful, angry, devaluing ones.

I don’t know exactly what made me wake up and I don’t know what will make your H wake up but as long as you see improvement in how he treats you and if he is starting to take responsibility for his actions then I say that he is slowly waking up. We men are thick and it takes a lot to get us to look at ourselves and to change ourselves but once we do get started and are aware of the problem we are very good at doing what is necessary to make the M/R work. At least I am. If they admit there is a problem and see their roll in it then I say you are both well on your way to improving your R.

I have hope you are right.

What I'm also looking for is an understanding for when it appropriate to examine someone else's motivation or philosophy about 'why' they do something.

I'm looking for more than 'dog training'.

I want to be intimate enough with a partner to share openly & honestly our repsective 'why's'.

To be able to discuss differences and moderate accordingly. If the differences are too big & moderation becomes excessive.. that to me is where there are 'irreconcilable differences' in an R.

You are not trying to train a dog

I agree 100% see above bold quote

and I think a lot of times that is how women view us men.

When we (or at least me) hear "just tell me what to do & I'll do it.. anything to shut you up" am I taking the power/control or is he giving it up??

It’s a vicious cycle of control, power and resistance we all get into.

uh-huh... see above

This is where communication comes in I understand your problem here with communicating with us because we are very thick and get stuck in a routine and its hard for us to get out of. But there is a better way then “trying to train us” as you put it.

again i agree.. but how do we help you 1- recognize it's a routine & 2- help you get out of it.. without coming across at controlling?? I hear you say above, we just have to wait until you come to that realization on your own??

How you do that I cannot say

damnit.. you were suppose to have the answer!!

Both parties need to be willing to change how we interact with each other if anything is going to change. Also both people need to realize that there are things we are not going to understand about each other but have to accept them as they way it is. We all need to learn to look past the words and see the true meaning behind them and not take such offense to what is being said.

That's why the Stosny stuff, I think makes so much sense..I want to be intimate enough with a partner to share openly & honestly our repsective 'why's'. To be able to discuss differences and moderate accordingly. If the differences are too big & moderation becomes excessive.. that to me is where there are 'irreconcilable differences' in an R.

sounds about the same to me.

but from what you have posted and said to me it sounds like you are doing a good job of trying to get him to understand this. You need to be patient

.. yep, patience.. I'm thinking of changing my stripper name to Penelope Patience

Thanks for exchange I appreciate your view point too.
Peace
Bridge