In-same house separation

[breakaway]

breakaway...

I agree with you completely...and that's precisely where I found myself in my M...one person is not responsible for another's abusive behavior...removing herself can make a tremendous difference for both of them...or just reveal him as someone who is unwilling to change...(as is the case with my wife).

.c.

Exactly. (And by my first comment about equivalency..I didn't mean to imply that the man can't be abused emotionally by his spouse...but her illustration was about being punched. I'm sure you knew what I meant, just clarifying though)

I will soon be in that situation I'm afraid. I suggested MC to my H...and he screamed he would NEVER EVER do that, I might as well file for divorce if I was so unhappy. Granted, he'd been drinking so this was a pointless conversation. Anyway..later in bed, he says...I love you more than I've ever loved you. And I said, in a nice chiding way...then you really don't want me to file for divorce do you? And then HE said...Well it depends on how much you expect me to change.

Okay then. So much for loving me more than you've ever loved me. Of course what he really meant, is "I'm terrified you will tell me to stop drinking." I think it was Bridgestone that said an angry man is a scared man. I try to remember that.

Sorry for the hijack, cook.

[Forrest Gump]

"The problem I have with most of what you said...is that it implies she is somehow at least partially responsible for his behavior."

Is she not? They both share in the responsibility. They both have "learned" this R together. It was based and built on a tremendous amount of "underlying" issues. Most of them were not healthy. Some came from her.. some came from him.

A marriage is built by two people.. always has been always will be. If you start off with crap.. you are gonna end up more crap. SC has just now started dealing with a big majority of the "crap" in her own life. How can she expect that it is all.. just gonna get better?

"She can't make him a good husband"

Interesting.

"cause him to abuse her"

I will agree she is not the cause of the abuse.

"or cause him to stop abusing her"

Interesting

"She can only remove herself from the situation until such time as he decides he WILL take responsibility for his behavior."

And this.. is the only solution? This is the only way it will work? This is the only way "out"?

Who decides when he has taken responsibility for his actions?

"The kinds of things you are saying are all parts of sick codependent relationships."

Let me be real clear.. this R has been a codependent one.. since the day SC started posting here. They have fed off each other.. quite a bit.

How.. does saying.. The solution is I am leaving.. or you are getting out.. change that dependency in any way shape or form?

How does it make things better?

99% of what is going on here.. in my mind.. is 2 very controlling people battling for control. It has been from day 1.. since I first posted to SC.

"It's not her job to do anything but fix herself."

"I beg your pardon?"

The goal of fixing the issues that you have.. brings about the implied thought.. that you help the S grow with you. You can never "fix" things on your own.. leaving the S behind.. and expect them to understand. You can't leave the S in your "shadow".

The reason we are all here.. the reason we came.. was to "fix" our respective marriages. It does start with YOU.. at some point.. you still have to help others.. catch up.

The scope of what I see here in this "stitch" has become very narrow. The direction it is going.. leaves a lot to be desired. For me it has for a while. SC is a big girl.. and she is smart. If I came in and ruffled some feathers.. sorry.. this just does not sit well with me.. and I felt I needed to say something.

[breakaway]

"The problem I have with most of what you said...is that it implies she is somehow at least partially responsible for his behavior."

Is she not? They both share in the responsibility. They both have "learned" this R together. It was based and built on a tremendous amount of "underlying" issues. Most of them were not healthy. Some came from her.. some came from him.

Uh, no. She's not. She's only responsible for herself and changing the way she reacts to him.

A marriage is built by two people.. always has been always will be. If you start off with crap.. you are gonna end up more crap. SC has just now started dealing with a big majority of the "crap" in her own life. How can she expect that it is all.. just gonna get better?

I'm not sure which smart cookie you're talking about. I've never once heard anything that implied she thinks it's "just gonna get better." She works very hard at making it better...and has been for months and months and months. You seem to think that if she stays put that THAT will somehow "make it all better." It ain't workin so far. She has SAID that maybe separating is the only way for them to EACH heal and possibly be able to have a healthy R.

"She can't make him a good husband"

Interesting.

"cause him to abuse her"

I will agree she is not the cause of the abuse.

"or cause him to stop abusing her"

Interesting

yeah..it's interesting that you think she is not the cause of the abuse but she could somehow be the cause of not being abused. Missin' your logic there. If he WON'T STOP she has to separate. Maybe then he'll "get it." And want to stop.

"She can only remove herself from the situation until such time as he decides he WILL take responsibility for his behavior."

And this.. is the only solution? This is the only way it will work? This is the only way "out"?

Why would you encourage someone that you say yourself is in these unhealthy patterns with another person to stay. He hasn't done jack sh!t to take her seriously until she said she'd leave. Do you get that? SO now she says, oh okay, he understands, I'll stay. What do you think that's going to get her. You are contradicting yourself. You say she keeps doing the same thing so he doesn't change. It's clear in this sitch that he doesn't change unless threatened with catastrophe. If it's an "empty threat" and not serious action...she will get more of the same.

Who decides when he has taken responsibility for his actions?

She decides what her boundaries are. He decided if he can live with them. Ask Puppy about that one.

"The kinds of things you are saying are all parts of sick codependent relationships."

Let me be real clear.. this R has been a codependent one.. since the day SC started posting here. They have fed off each other.. quite a bit.

How.. does saying.. The solution is I am leaving.. or you are getting out.. change that dependency in any way shape or form?

How does it make things better?

Forrest, I'm sure you mean well, but I don't think you have a very clear concept of codependency. SHE is moving out of codependency. HE is not. What you are suggesting as a solution is MORE codependency. SHE IS NOT RESPONSIBLE FOR HIM.

99% of what is going on here.. in my mind.. is 2 very controlling people battling for control. It has been from day 1.. since I first posted to SC.

Again, if you see SC as controlling as her H, instead of trying to get control of her OWN life...and not him...then I think you have a skewed perspective.

The goal of fixing the issues that you have.. brings about the implied thought.. that you help the S grow with you.

Codependency

You can never "fix" things on your own.. leaving the S behind.. and expect them to understand.

Codependency. And I don't think she's been vague in talking with H.

You can't leave the S in your "shadow".

I don't even know what that's supposed to mean...but I'm guessing it has something to do with...codependency.

The reason we are all here.. the reason we came.. was to "fix" our respective marriages. It does start with YOU.. at some point.. you still have to help others.. catch up.

Nope. It starts with you. If he WANTS her help, well then great. If he wants to stay sick, well then no.

The scope of what I see here in this "stitch" has become very narrow. The direction it is going.. leaves a lot to be desired. For me it has for a while. SC is a big girl.. and she is smart. If I came in and ruffled some feathers.. sorry.. this just does not sit well with me.. and I felt I needed to say something.

Hey, man...same here. No hard feelings. But nobody here tells a man living with an abusive woman to keep living with her and help her get better. Never heard it once. But it's par for the course that people tell women it's their job.

[Forrest Gump]

"Uh, no. She's not. She's only responsible for herself and changing the way she reacts to him."

Based solely on what I have "seen" so far.. I question how much change there has been here.

From 12/05

H was there for me last night. He held me while I cried. He listened. He validated. I know he doesn't understand, neither do I.

So less than 3 months ago.. she freely admitted.. they both still don't understand.

I really do just want to be happy. I really do just want to live my life, & not think about this stuff anymore. I am a glass half full type person.

There is a tremendous amount of "expectation" in that thought.. esp for someone.. who just said they have NFC disease.. and their partner does too.

Again.. what has.. or what is "changed" at this point right now? To me.. we are right back where we were when SC started posting.

"I'm not sure which smart cookie you're talking about."

The one posting right here.. the same one I encouraged to just get it out there.

" I've never once heard anything that implied she thinks it's "just gonna get better."

Once again I wanted to bail on counseling, just stop, be done. Doc said he'd see in 3-4 years then, cause we haven't handled all the zombies that refuse to stay buried. I threw the kleenex box at him. He pisses me off when he makes sense & I know he's right. Hugs.

This is one of those things that points to that fact. There were some of the same thoughts in her early postings. Not wanting to bend(Fight the Power).. could be seen that way. Why would you want to be "done" if counseling was helping? Are you not in just that thought.. hoping things.. "just get better"?

"She works very hard at making it better...and has been for months and months and months."

Yes.. but so has he.. he has had some moments. Again.. who is "winning" here.. who is doing the better job? Why does that matter?

"You seem to think that if she stays put that THAT will somehow "make it all better."

In my mind.. there is a slightly better chance.. by staying together. Staying together requires more work. Remember "separating" never solves anything. You will walk back.. with everything you left with. The "cooling off" can help.

"It ain't workin so far."

The flaw in your logic.. that I see.. how can you expect it to "work" when nothing has really changed? Again.. we are right back to the same place we were 1 year ago.

Yet, as life does, things circle back around to give us another chance to heal, if we didn't do it thoroughly the first time around.

"Why would you encourage someone that you say yourself is in these unhealthy patterns with another person to stay."

The goal.. in the sense of things here.. is "Save the Marriage". Again.. that is why we all come here. In this situation.. leaving may not be the "end all" answer. Again there have been times.. SC and H worked. Yet then we started down the road of IC.. and things got a bit cloudy. Job loss.. Money issues.. School. I am sorry.. but you put that kinda "Life" on someone.. some "Drama" is going to pop up. Just read right here..

"He hasn't done jack sh!t to take her seriously until she said she'd leave."

This is not a fair.. or true statement.. I will be more than happy to go back and point them out if you like.

"You say she keeps doing the same thing so he doesn't change."

She has said she was leaving before.. a few times.. I think. So we started off doing the same thing.. saying she was leaving. There was not enough "change" before we got to "I'm leaving".. cause once we get there.. things already suck.

"It's clear in this sitch that he doesn't change unless threatened with catastrophe."

It's clear in this stitch that she cannot create change without a catastrophe.

Really read that.

"If it's an "empty threat" and not serious action...she will get more of the same."

Right now.. I am gonna say.. she gets that no matter what she does.


"But it's par for the course that people tell women it's their job."

Your frame of Focus.. is very narrow. I usually post he same thing to the men as I do the women. I encourage the same behavior from them both.

[smartcookie]

Some people get it, some people don't.

I've been trying for 15 years to talk to a man that doesn't get it.

If some of the guys here can "get it" by reading my thoughts, & my experiences, then I've helped someone. If not, no worries here. Like water off a ducks back.

I just picked up S13 from school. He was crying & driving home through tears, he says "dad told me he didn't do anything wrong".

I said "it's unfortunate that he sees it that way, everybody does things wrong in life & in a relationship, it's how we learn, & improve. I believe your dad & I both made a lot of mistakes through the years. You're probably going to hear a lot of things over the next few weeks & months that aren't necessarily true, you decide for yourself what makes sense, okay."


Then H called me to see how S13 is. I said "you realize everything you say to them may get back to me, S told me you told him you didn't do anything wrong. He paused, then said, "I didn't say it in that context." I just said, "it makes it hard for a son to live up to a dad who doesn't do anything wrong, whatever the context was."

I'm not even mad. I'm not even surprised.

I'm taking care of my kids & me.

Here's my bottom line. I am happy by myself, & when I'm with my kids.

I am not happy being with H.

The End.

[gucci loafer]

I'm not even mad. I'm not even surprised.

I'm taking care of my kids & me.

Here's my bottom line. I am happy by myself, & when I'm with my kids.

I am not happy being with H.

The End.

HOORAY....

[MrBond]

FG, I would say that you're correct in both parties being responsible IN THE BEGINNING. However its been two years of her trying anything and everything she can think of.

There are just some people, men and women, who are just stubborn/stupid. People can't change unless they want to change. You can lead the horse to water but you can't make him drink the kool-aid.

In this case, Cookie's H is stubborn, selfish and stupid. Period.

He doesn't realize how amazing it is to have a woman WANT to work on the R as hard as she does. In this case, her H believes he knows what a marriage should be (but he hasn't put in any real effort to understand). It's her who has done the research and deep soul-searching to truly understand what marriage is.

What he's been doing is appeasing. C'mon, we've all done it. We say what we want our spouse to hear to end conflict. It doesn't get to the root cause of what started it. Eventually those little arguments build into resentment and sometimes full blown hatred which is why we're all here. Our spouses have hit their tipping point and felt the only way out is out.

[MrBond]

Cookie,

I suggest the next time you talk to your kids together, you consult with him beforehand and discuss exactly what to tell them. This way he can't get all pissy and start whining about YOU wanting to leave.

I'm afraid your H's been hit by the stupid/stubborn stick once too often and he needs something drastic to jolt him into action. When I kicked my W out of the house, it was the best thing for me to do for us. Now she's back home (albeit she still says we're separated) and I slowly see things turning around.

Good luck to you.

[Kalni]

SC,
nobody wants you to stay in a M you feel is unhealthy for you. Speaking for myself and thinking that maybe some people feel the same, sometimes, with all my friends and the ones I care, when they are ready to make an important decision, I have the urge to express things that I fear they are not possible to express themselves, being "IN the situation", acting a bit like the devil's advocate.
In the end, you know best what you can and what you cant take and in the end, you will be the one living with your choices.

I am sorry about your kids. I hope this will not last long and soon the initial shock will subside. When your kids will realise their life is not falling into pieces and when your H realises what he does, hurts them and only them, things will calm down. They will not be "fine", but at least calmer and you will be able to do some damage control.
Good luck and be strong
xxx
K

[Bridgestone]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zjGXLYbV9Js