Please help

[lovetwinslost]

Here we go. I attempted another date night this weekend (btw, we had one a couple of weeks ago where we went to a dinner theater-I thought we had fun as we talked and slightly touched, but still no serious affection, hugging, or kissing that night), but it failed again. She had told me a few weeks ago that she wanted to go to a basketball game, so I set-it up for Friday. I I thought it was supposed to be for just her and I, but she said she wanted to take the kids. I said okay as long as we can go out on Saturday or I even suggested staying in. She said okay. Well here it is Saturday evening and she just took off to the store. I said what about the date night. She said she didn't feel like it now. She said she needed to go shopping and that it is too late to take the kids to the sitter. She left without evening kissing me good-bye. I guess I shouldn't be surprised, she rarely initiates any hugs or kisses before parting. This is something that we used to do religiously early in our marriage, but ever since the falling out 3-years ago it usually only happens if I initiate it. I don't know what to make of all this?

We spent the day with the kids at an amusement park where I was getting excited about spending time with her this evening alone. I attempted to compliment, hug, and kiss her today, but she did not reciprocate. I should have known tonight was going to be a bust. I just keep having fantasies of where when things seem to have been getting a better about a year ago, where we would set-up successful date nights. In at least a couple of cases she told me to drop the kids off and come back to get her. When I got back to the house she had candles lit and was dressed sexy for just a few hours of sexcapades while the kids were at the sitter. What happened to these days and her efforts?

Once again, lost, lonely, sex-starved, hurting, and very confused. Any advice out there? Thank you.

[lovetwinslost]

Well here I am again. This has become more or less a journal for me. I am feeling like I am losing my emotional mind. My heart hurts. I cry in private. My work keeps me stable, but the weekends are so painful and lonely whereas I have to look at my beautiful wife all day everyday. She spends so much time doing her makeup, doing her hair, her nails, tanning, hair removal, dressing sexy, etc. She is still has beautiful and sexy as the first day that I met her maybe even more. But why does she do all of this, since she doesn't pay attention to me? I compliment her regardless letting her know that she is beautiful and sexy just the way she is and that she doesn't need to do all of what she does. It must take so much time and money, for what just to look good. It is obviously not for me, because she never responds to my compliments, she never initiates any hugs, kisses, or lovin. I just hope and pray it is not for another. I sometimes wonder if she has some schemin plan to leave me in future years to come.

Well as I stated in the earlier sitch, we were supposed to have a date night tonight, but it never happened. Instead she came home after a couple hours from shopping and went straight to bed. I can only imagine that she either met up with someone or at a minimum called or texted him. I could just be paranoid. She did come home with bags from the store. She told me she just went to the one store to buy new shoes for the kids. Not sure why she thought she needed to do so after we had been all together all day as a family and especially since we had planned to drop the kids off to go on a date.

Any how, I decided to have a couple of beers and surf the net, i.e. facebook, myspace, and some porn sites. I finally just decided to go for it. I went up stairs. I asked her if she was awake and if she would come to our bed and make love to me. She actually didn't say anything but got up from the spare bed and followed me to ours. We got naked. Got into bed. I said why don't we do this more often. She said how (because of the kids). I said like this, in the middle of the night while they are sleeping. She didn't respond to that. She asked me to get the lotion (something she does when she just wants to get it over with, not have to go through foreplay, when short on time, something she has suggested more frequent than not over the last couple of years). I said no that I wanted to perform oral sex on her, something she used to always love that I did. She used to say I was the best. Now she says nothing. She said she didn't want to that she needed a shower. Another excuse, because years ago she knew that we didn't care. Anyway, I attempted to kiss her and she did for about a minute before she turned her head. I went down on and satisfied her and then we made love. It must have lasted only a couple of minutes. I almost cried. We used to be so passionate. I felt like it was horrible lacking passion, heart, and love. It was just over so fast. When it was over, I wanted to pour my heart out about how much I love her and ask her why are we or she the way we are or she is. But I said nothing. I watched her get up. Go to the bathroom. Get dressed. And went back to bed in the spare room. I just laid there and watched her go. I then got up, got dressed, and went and asked her why she didn't stay with me. She didn't respond. I came down stairs and cried and now here I am writing.

Was it a mistake to initiate love making?

Was it a mistake not to say anything?

I am just sitting here wondering what she must be thinking. Did she make love to me out of sympathy, to keep the peace, wifely duities, what? She did not seem like she enjoyed it. I can appreciate if she truly wanted to take care of and satisfy me, but I didn't feel it that way. Is she thinking of another? Is she thinking about how to get away from or be rid of me?

Once again, I miss our laughing, joking, grab-ass carrying on, kissing, hugging, and making passionate love. Will it ever come back and be the same again one day? I can only hope and pray. If there is a God, I can sure use him. I think I will go to church tomorrow.

[PositivelyMommy]

Hi Lovestwinslost,

Good for you for sticking with DB and trying to stick with your M despite the hard road you have been travelling for three years.

I read over your thread twice and have noticed a few things, I am going to be honest here but will also try to be gentle.

1) I sense a lot of disapproval of your W from you (e.g. she spends so much time and money on beautification). I fear she is feeling the same. Well, disapproval just KILLS intimacy. If she feels that you disapproves of her, you WILL NOT be getting any intimacy from a woman. So, if you want to change your sex life, you need to change the way you see her primping and taking time for herself. You may or may not agree with it but you have to use a lot of compassion and patience here. But I fear your body language might give you away so you will need to work on being 'OK' with her primping and spending money on beautifying.

2) You continuously comment on her physical beauty. A lot. Nothing wrong with that at all. But do you think maybe because her beauty is important to you or do you think her beauty is important to her? Why do I ask? In the beginning of your R, did you feel that she loved being told that she was beautiful? If she did, don't you think she gets her self-esteem by being beautiful? Or is it that you like to be with a beautiful woman and it is important that she remains beautiful? Just trying to get to the bottom of this.

3) I think your LOVE LANGUAGE is physical touch. You mention being touched, hugged, kissed a lot, it means a lot to you personally. Now, what is your wife's LOVE LANUAGE? It's important that you know.

4) I hear a lot of negativity in your post. A lot of it is what is missing in you R. And when you don't get sex, you see the evening as a 'failure'. Forgive me, but I have to disagree. As a woman, I don't it that way. Firstly, the fact that she is bringing up the kids with you is a HUGE positive. Another is that you are under the same roof is a positive. You hang out with family, a positive. If you have a good time with you wife, regardless of the fact it leads to the bedroom or not, that to me is a success. Not a failure. If there is a connection, that you have enjoy a ball game or the theatre, that is a success. A woman doesn't want to feel 'pressured' into sex, she has to be lured, romanced. Just because you had a nice night out, doesn't guarantee sex. If I felt that kind of pressure all the time, then I would be turned off as well.

My H was one who didn't initiate any hugs either, when he wanted a hug, that usually meant he wanted sex. Well, you know what, I am not a machine. Women would like hugs all the time too but we don't want to feel like we get no intimacy if we don't 'put out'. A woman's sexual organ is not between her legs, it's between her ears. Try to use words to romance her. And not the same old lines you've used before. Sit down and write some new and creative stuff. Lines she's never heard before to pique her interest! Not, oh, you are so beautiful today.Try something a bit more specific, like, 'You're looking even better than when we first met.' That kind of stuff. And for goodness sakes, try not to think negatively about her shopping or beautification, she has been with you for ten years, she can FEEL your disapproval.

Some suggestions anyway, I may be dead wrong but at least it's food for thought.

[lovetwinslost]

Dear PM:

First off, thank you very much for taking the time to read my posts/sitch and responding. No need to be gentle. If you read my initial posts, no one else was. Don't they say that the Truth hurts anyway. That's okay, I have thick skin.
I can take. And I probably need it.

1) DISAPPROVAL: This is a definite "aha" moment for me. I never thought of it the way you put it. I have not accepted her the way she is and instead I have tolerated it, therefore she probably feels/senses it. I am going to change my approach here. Thank you.

2) BEAUTY: I think appearance is very important to her. I believe it was important to me 10 years ago, but not so much now. Possibly that bothers her. I compliment her a lot, but I am not sure if she really cares or not. She says thank you, but she never compliments me. I don't know about me other than the fact that I truly enjoy looking at beautiful woman and the fact that my W is beautiful, therefore I really still enjoy looking at her.

3) LOVE LANGUAGES: She one time handed me the book and wrote inside that her languages are Physical Touch and Words of Affirmation. I have never stopped trying to touch her nor compliment her, communicate with her, write letters, cards, and even sing songs or recite poetry. I used to believe mine were Receiving Gifts and Acts of Service and that is what I told her. Which is also probably what I used to do for her more often than not, was my own languages, i.e. giving gifts, which I still do everytime I go out of town. So I had to learn her languages, but I felt I was already doing them anyway. For me Acts of Service were cooking a meal, doing some house-work or laundry, because that is not something she does often. Anyway, ever since I told her my languages she does nothing for me, in other words the last time she got me a gift was for my birthday 2-years ago and that was just a fruit basket with a note telling me she is trying. Can you believe it she has not bought me a real legitimate Birthday, Christmas, Valentines, etc. gift for probably 5 or 6 years now? When we were dating and first couple of years of marriage she used to buy clothes all the time for all these events and I loved it. As far as Acts of Service, I cannot recall the last time she cooked, cleand, did dishes, or laundry. I pretty much do it all. Now some 5-6 years later I feel that my languages are Physical Touch, Quality Time, and Words of Affirmation. I don't care so much about gifts and service, since it has been so long since I have received them. I just basically want to spend some time with her, touch her, and hear that she still cares about me, because these are all the things that she seems to try to avoid. It would seem that I basically want what she wanted, and I guess since I didn't give it to her early on in the marriage she took it away, is not giving in, and now I want it all back. And since she pushes away so much I try so hard to spend as much time with her as possible, only she asks for space. Typical guy, I want what I can't have. Would you say that I need to just keep applying her love languages of Words of Affirmation and Physical Touch?

4) NEGATIVITY/PRESSURE: You are right. What I post on here is my negative side. I take this time to vent my sad, negative, hurtful feelings in hopes of getting the hard truthful advice from folks like you. Thanks again. I am actually mostly a positive, passionate, enthusiastic, excited, and up beat person most of the time day in and day out at work, when I come home with the kids, and posting on other sites such as facebook. It is just around her that I feel sad and insecure, where I rarely know what to say like I am walking on egg shells because of her typical outburts of anger, rage, and criticism in response to anything that I say or do. I can just tell her to "have a great day" and she will tell me all the reasons why it is going to be horrible or I will say "what do you have planned for the day" and she will say what is it to you anyway. I never know how she is going to react, so once again I just keep telling myself never give up/never quit. Possibly someday the fog will clear and she will see me for the great guy that I really am and that I don't deserve all the poor treatment that she dishes out. Once again, you are right on. I am very happy that we are still under the same roof raising our children together. We don't always agree on the same things, but at least they are our children and we are rasining them and not someone else. Granted, spending time together as a family is also great and it is what I want, but even when we were at the amusement park, I asked her if she was having a good time and she said no. I said why. She said spending her day at an amusement park is not her idea of fun. I guess she is being honest, because I am sure she would rather be shopping, but you would think just being with the kids would be fun for her. Besides it was her idea anyway. I had suggested the Zoo and she suggested the amusement park. The kids decided on the park. What do you think this is about? It almost makes me feel like she doesn't want to be with or around the kids, although she is very good at encouraging us getting out and doing things on the weekends. I just think if she had her perfect way, she would leave the kids with me by myself and go off and do her own thing. I think she doesn't do this because she knows once again that I would disapprove. I guess I should let her do this from time to time if is to make her happy. The thing is she worked last weekend, so I had them and did take them out on my own. Anyway, about the sex pressure thing, I find it difficult to be romantic with her with the two little ones always around. This is why I sat up dates, in hopes of the opportunities to be romantic. Like I said before it didn't work two weeks ago and she basically shut it off this weekend, so realistically she is not even allowing for the opportunity so therefore I cannot even see where she would be feeling pressured. Besides, how is a woman able to go so many weeks and months without sex? How is it fair to deprive a husband of just as long? This is where I feel either something is physically/emotionally wrong with her or she is in fact having an affair and getting it somewhere else. Regardless, based on your comments I will focus on being romantic, without expecting anything in return.

BTW, my W used to say the same that the only time I hugged and kissed was when I wanted sex. I never agreed with what she was saying, but that was her perception therefore her reality. Now I attempt to hug and kiss her every chance I get, especially before we leave for work in the mornings and when we get home in the evenings and even in close passing in the house or in public. The only problem is, I can't remember the last time she actually kissed me back with tongue and all (even making love last night she refused to kiss passionately). She doesn't even wrap her arms around me when I hug her. She just stands there with her arms at the side. Her behavior has got to be a bad example for the kids to see, especially since we encourage them to hug and kiss us and each other all the time, but when they see her not reciprocate then from time to time nor do they.

Let me tell a couple of stories. Today I was off to church as I usually go and I asked her if she wanted to come as a whole family. She said no. I said why. She said because she didn't feel like it. This is fairly common that I go by myself or either take one or both of the kids. Last Sunday I took my D. Today, I encouraged my S to finally go with me.
My W used to go but hasn't for many months now. But it is funny how she goes out and specifically buys nice clothes for the kids to wear for church, so this morning she was sure to ensure my S had a new set of duds on. We went and came back and then all of us went to the kids weekly baseball game. Afterwards we went out to eat. I thought we had a good afternoon. We came home and I immediately began finishing the laundry for the week that I had started yesterday. The kids proceed to play. My W goes to the spare room, shuts the door and does who knows what, probably sleep or watch TV. Several hours go by. I finished the laundry, did the dishes, packed the kids lunches, made them dinner, laid out clothes for tomorrow, somewhat engage the kids and pick-up around the house, and then get them and myself ready for bed. At some point she comes out of the room, looks at the clothes, and starts criticising the way that I had washed and folded them, complains that the house is a wreck, and proceeds to say that the kids need baths. This basically pisses me off, so I just plain ignore her and go to bed. I feel tired, hurt, and angry by the fact that I have been doing all the domestic chores for two days and she hasn't done anything, so how does she think it is fair or right to complain and criticize. At least I was doing it, unlike her. Does she do it just to make me angry or feel bad? And if so, why? What does this achieve? She does proceed to bathe the kids and fix the laundry, then she goes back to the spare room, shuts the door and goes to bed. BTW, even though the kids have their own rooms and beds, they have been sleeping with her in the spare room ever since she bascially moved into there what going on 6 months now. So here I am again, alone in bed.

Another story I wanted to tell, is that a couple of months ago, we went out to a club dancing with a group of friends and family for someone's birthday party. My W got all dressed up nice and sexy. I was sure to compliment her multiple times as did many others. We drank, we socialized, we danced, I held her hand, I attempted to hug and kiss her a couple of times, she seemed receptive at the club in front of everyone, I thought we had an awesome time. Then we came home. The kids were actually staying over at the sitters. So of course, I attempted to romance her if you will and she flat out denied me saying she was tired. Now once again, going back to the earlier comment about pressure, is this fair? How can we have such a great time, looking so sexy and good, and not expect to take it to the next level, especially since it had been a month or so? I just don't get it.

Enough for one evening.

Thanks again, PM. Based on your comments, I am going to focus on Approving her beautification, applying her love languages, not pressuring her for sex, and enjoying the positives.

[lovetwinslost]

Question: If I sign up for a coach, will the be sure to read my posts, so that I don't have to spend the entire time during the session telling my history sitch again? I believe this would save time and possibly provide lots of insight for the coach to help me even before we speak. Especially since like I said before, I have spoken to two coaches before over a period of several sessions that I did not feel were helpful. Thank you.

[PositivelyMommy]

Hi LTL,

Thank you very much for your long reply. I really feel your frustration. You know very well that this is a long road we have chosen here so it's going to take a long time to fix. Thank you very much for the extra stories, I will try to explain from a third person's ( and a woman's POV) so maybe you can better understand your W, and maybe I can understand a man's POV.

I think we both agree on Approval and Beauty. So let's proceed to #3, Love Languages. So she gave you this book. That means she was in her own way, trying to reach out to you. I know it's been awhile but she did try. She was telling you that the two of you were not communicating as well as you could have and she wanted to show you the way to her heart. My H has stopped giving me presents a few years back as well. But I didn't get angry about it or anything, you know what, I went out and bought my own present ( letting him know in advance what I picked out to get his OK) and then I thanked him. So the pressure was off him to get me something special and the guessing work and I was pleasing myself for getting exactly what I liked. I know the romance part is missing but I believe that we have to go out and get what we need. We can't expect others to read our minds or expect them to make us happy. Happiness is our own responsibility. The thing was I never resented him. I didn't complain to him about it. I just took it to be my responsibility and that was it. However, if we feel and is constantly thinking that the other person does not love us enough then we will constantly find ways to PROVE THAT WE ARE RIGHT. I think this is where you are right now.

So if you want to change that thinking - an attitude which is poisoning your relationship with her. You need to apply some Positive Thinking skills and PROVE THE OPPOSITE.

Catch yourself thinking negative thoughts about your W and her attitudes and find evidence to PROVE THE OPPOSITE. E.g you think she is lazy because she is not doing anything in the house - She worked really hard this week contributing to the household by holding down her job. She cannot handle a job and housework as well. ACCEPT IT (You keep fighting this truth). I love her and the kids therefore I will help her out and show her my love in this way.

Another example : She doesn't want to be around me - she is around me, she is going out dancing with me, to the amusement park. If she really doesn't want to be around me, she can just NOT be with us AT ALL! She is making comments about this not being her idea of fun. Maybe it's not. But then ask her what she would like to do and do that next time. Say, forget about the kids, what would YOU like to do and we can do what you like. Let her take charge.

As for your lovely evening out, I know from my own experience, I do get tired after going out all night. I may or may not be in the mood for ML. She has a right to say that she is tired! Your expectation may just be a bit too much and she is thinking that you are pressuring her. i.e. he takes me out and shows me a good time just because he wants sex.

I think you are coming from a POV where it's your right to ML with your wife. I can feel it here from the other side of the screen. I can just imagine what your W must feel in the same house. So my suggestion would be, show her that you are not just about sex. Think of her as a new girlfriend, someone who you would like to woo. I think she is missing some romance as well. Show her that you respect her wish not to ML, don't sulk. Let her take the reins a bit and show her respect. Have good times and romantic times without the pressure of sex. Try to go back to square one. How would you woo a new GF? By words, action, romantic gestures. This is your challenge. She wants someone who will fall head over heels with her, use new words with her like I suggested. You can't turn yourself into a stranger again but you can change the way you interact.

I read that you keep wanting things back when you make an effort. That isn't love, it's bartering. Romance is not a business arrangement. Lower your expectations. Make romantic overtures but don't expect sex. When she feels you have backed off, then maybe her interest in you will grow.

Good luck.

BTW, I stick with one DB coach so I don't have to go over my story again and again. I don't think they will read your posts but try to stick with it. They are on your side.

[Can it work]

LTL

PM gave me the heads up about your sitch so I thought I'd come over for a look. I can't talk long as I'm about to go home for my lunch. I will try to write more later though.

One thing I will ask you is if you've heard of 'No More Mr Nice Guy' by Dr Robert Glover? If you havn't, I suggest you find out about it very soon. You seem like a typical nice guy and by what I read in your thread, you're falling in to most if not all of the nice guy traps Dr Glover describes in his book. This book will really help you I think.

I'd best go for now but like I said, I'll try to add a bit more later.

Kev

[lovetwinslost]

Hello PM:

Thanks again for responding. I hear a lot of what you are saying. I have been told it before...probably can be seen in my previous posts. I have done everything that you have suggested over the past three years. It is that same old story that things change or get better for a while and then they go back to the same way they were before. This last year has been the worst, which is why I have resorted to posting on DB again. I basically was or am very unahppy and looking for an outlet. I met with a professional counselor for a year after she dropped the bomb, but during that time she would get mad at me and say I was wasting my money because it wasn't working when the I truth was I was actually feeling better. Probably because I was focussing more on my self than on her, so then I felt good but she was still not getting whatever it was that she expected from me. Then the year after that I thought things were going pretty good. We seemed to be getting along pretty well. A few date nights here and there. A couple of good vacations together with friends and family. Even frequent sex where she actually initiated or asked for it from time to time. Then like I said this past year has felt like the year before her A and dropping the D bomb, therefore I have had those anxieties that she is doing it again. I even asked her it a fit of rage once who she was screwing if not me and then one other time where she was receiving late night texts and calls. In both cases she gave me the silent treatment as if she was either to angry to respond or the fact of the matter it was or is true and she just didn't want to say the truth or a lie. I am not sure. Should I straight up ask her if she is having an A again?

Anyway, you were right on the Love Languages. I am sure she was reaching out. And I felt as if I complied as I read the book as well and then we discussed it. But that was probably five years ago before all the drama hit the fan. The reality is or at least what she told me was that she has been unhappy ever since shortly after marrying me. After many conversations like this, I or we would always try to find what happened and go back there. For example I would write her love letters, poetry or sing songs. Once again, it would be nice and she seemed to appreciate it for the moment, but it seemed like it was never enough. I felt like I gave and gave and gave and got nothing in return, i.e. no letters, no gifts, not affectionate, nor sex. Funny thing is one time I sat down and shared with her all the love letters she had writen me when we were dating and she responded by saying she never remembered writing any of them. She even used to say she cannot even remember ever having a good time with me. I don't know if she truly believed this or just said it to be mean. I have the letters and photos to prove a lot of good times that it seemed to me that we had.

I hear what you are saying about not presurring her and not expecting anything in return, but it is just difficult. I feel I work so hard to take care of my family and all I expect is a little appreciation, respect, and affection in return. I will continue to work on this.

I also hear what you are saying about her actually being with me even I think she doen't want to. It just bothers me that I think that she is thinking she would rather be somewhere else with someone else instead of me and the kids. I do make suggestions that we do something that she wants to do just her and I, but she typically does not respond or suggest anything. She is the kind of person that if someone else doesn't plan it, it doesn't happen. She does not plan or really decide to do anything significant. Like I have said before. She takes time everyweek or so to get her hair, nails, tanning, and hair removal done. But if we talk about doing something fun for the weekend or for a vacation. She will just say something like sure. She will not really indicate whether she cares or not. She will not even make any effort to plan anything. Everytime I have left it up to her it never happened. And even recently I planned a date night and she changed her mind about wanting to go and she went shopping instead while leaving me with the kids. It is strange how she on many occassions complains about or asks for space because she says she never has anytime to herself, but this is confusing to me because she typically takes off one day per week from work to do those things that I mentioned above so what is she talking about space for herself. Aren't these things taking care of her self where she is spending time alone or with friends without myself and the kids be considered space and or quality time with her self?

I did ask her to lay with me last night after we bathed the kids and she did for about a minute. I cuddled, hugged, and spooned her asking about her day and how I missed her sleeping next to me. She was initially receptive as she did take the time to lay down when I asked, but she quickly got up and went to the bed in the spare room as she does every night.

The house is a wreck, but she actually did do the dishes tonight. First time in about a month. I did the laundry on Sunday and the folded clothes still sit on the couch. I ran the vacume tonight, because I was tired of the mess.

She has been looking good these last few days, but I haven't even gotten a hug or kiss for a while. Should I force myself on her in attempt to get a hug and kiss? I am still feeling sex-starved. I feeling a bit tired, so I don't know what else to write right now. Talk to you later.

[lovetwinslost]

Thanks Kev. I will google the book to find where to get it. Is it available on tape or CD? Where is best to obtain, amazaon or does the author have his own website? Thanks again. I will check it out. Anything can't hurt. Take care.

[kyle82]

keeping a relationship takes more than just an effort. Set a goal. Set something that you won't give up. Try to prioritize things and if you have figure them all out. Do steps now little by little. that's how we can maintain a relationship.