Charlie Brown Update

[CharlieBrown]

It has been a crazy few months and lots of items that have impacted our sitch. Thought I would journal a bit.

Ran for office in April 7 election. Spent a TON of time on it (for three weeks I wasn't home before 9:30 at night and was out knocking on doors for three straight weekends). Lost a close one, and in one sense was very dissapointed, in another I was releived because I might have bit off more than I could chew for balancing work and family as well. But, felt a deep level of respect from W as she watched me speak to crowds, etc. That was cool.

Two weeks before election, W starts a new job. Good news, bad news. Good news getting the job, bad news is it was at a pressure cooker time in our relationship with the election and she needed to work a lot for that two weeks. During that time we hardly saw each other and when we did things were either stressed or exciting and ml was not even a thought (honestly, not even for me).

Friday before election, W needs sudden operation and we spend weekend in hospital. I joked that we needed some quality time away from the kids...

Doctor orders no ml for 6 weeks (today is three week point) and w "jokingly" asks doc if he meant 6 months. That bugged me, especially because I was a very good H about taking care of her and never expressed any concern. Much worse was aunt and MIL who tell me she shouldn't need to go back to work, which reflects a lack of understanding of lifestyle we have chosen to live (ie. house we couldn't afford if she wasn't working) and her tastes. That made me feel like a complete loser as a provider.

Now, three weeks in and because things have settled down since election, W seems to be better about going back to work. Still need to sit down with her and make sure she understands EVERYTHING (not just in the fragments she wants to hear about) about our finances so she stops complaining to her mom about having to work.

We are in a weird place sexually. I think this is her ideal sitch (not working, but with income coming in and a husband with no expectation of ml). Not sure how to move past all of this and not just re-emerge in a rut, or worse. Would appreciate all thoughts.

CB

[Bagheera]

Howdy CB,

Whenever I read about your situation, I come away with the impression that you are, for the most part, letting -her- run the relationship, and letting -her- lay down the terms and conditions for your sexual relationship. You're hesitant to raise issues and 'rock the boat' for fear of gaining her disapproval, losing her acceptance, and thus losing what little intimacy you have.

This is very typical Nice Guy behavior. And as we say here over and over, while Nice Guys may be good, conscientious, caring men -- all good qualities -- they lack the 'masculine sexiness' or 'manliness' that really turns a woman on sexually. That may not sound fair, but that is simply how it is for many couples.

An experiment for you to try:

I would encourage you to start visualizing yourself as The Man of the house, the one who is ultimately in charge, the one who is responsible for the care of your wife and kids, and to start taking on the mantle of leadership in the relatinship. Don't talk to your wife about it, don't declare "I'm in charge" or some such, just calmly and firmly begin taking on that role on your own.

Stand up to your wife, NOT ANGRILY (in general, the first person to lose their temper in a debate, loses the debate), but firmly. Chances are, when you start standing your ground and standing up to her, SHE will become angry and start pushing you even harder -- DON'T cave in or back down -- stand firm and attempt to remain calm. Let her see by your actions that she married a man who is -stronger- than she is, but one who also loves her and cares for her, and who will LEAD the relationship.

A -sexy- man is one who is strong (mentally and physically), confident, and decisive, while at the same time he is loving and caring. Keep your core 'nice' qualities, but start layering in on top of that those sexy masculine qualities that every man has deep inside of him.

-- B.

[CharlieBrown]

B -

No argument from me (not to reinforce my MNG image) as I think you are correct. W has continued to whine about her stress from having to go back to work, but yet her tastes and our lifestyle demand it. I told her I want to meet tonight to go through our finances top to bottom so she has the full understanding. While she generally knows them, she (based on feedback from MIL) thinks that if we just drop the HBO, for example, that we can do this. I will use this as an opportunity to be fair but firm.

Any other suggestions? What about with the ml-break going for at least two more weeks, how to keep her thinking about it? It really eats away at me that I think aside from being sore, this is an ideal setup for her and she doesn't miss it at all. I see a lot of Mrs. Cinco in my W in this regard.

CB

[Strong&Alive]

CB,

What about with the ml-break going for at least two more weeks, how to keep her thinking about it? It really eats away at me that I think aside from being sore, this is an ideal setup for her and she doesn't miss it at all. I see a lot of Mrs. Cinco in my W in this regard.

I totally agree with Bagheera on the approach you need to take. I've not been able to access your early posts - how long have you been married? Do you have kids? When did the SSM "start"?

So I'm missing a lot of the pieces. But what comes across very clearly is a mixture of resentment and passivity - not a good combination.

It seems you are great at being The Man in the outside world, but then switch off at home. The reality is that The Man cannot afford to switch off at home. He needs to be There, thinking, functioning and being. In other words - all the things you were manifesting on the campaign trail. Marriage is not a couch, not a resting place; its the crucible in which we heat up and reveal our true intimate selves - and so it exposes fear, anxiety, resentment and laziness quite mercilessly.

Here are some things you need to think about:

(1) Do you really love your wife? As in the verb love. Do you really and honestly want to spend the rest of your life with her? (Or do you simply see yourself "stuck" with her as a result of children, finances, intertia?)

(2) Do you actively desire her sexually? Enough to intitiate sex frequently, and push through her crappy excuses? Or do you give up at the first sign of disinterest and retreat into your shell?

(3) If you can't answer "Yes" to (1) and (2) then.. why should she want to have sex with you? Why should she be attracted to you sexually? Particularly in a LTR, women can sense a man's presence i.e. the degree to which he is "in" the moment with them. They can usually tell if he's half-hearted or "not that into them" and they simply don't find it attractive. That's not me spewing Mr Nice Guy platitudes, its just the way it is. And if you turn that around - it makes perfect sense - as in, the best version of yourself does not really want a woman that is not really "into" him either. Correct? So the point I'm driving at is that You need to decide deeply and honestly what you feel about your wife, and start acting in accordance with it, you need to go "all the way in" to sorting out this marriage. The alternative is year after year of the same.

(4) I haven't forgotten about your wife either. I highlighted just one paragraph of your last post - attempting to make her "think" anything, being resentful at how You "think" she feels about sex, and comparing her to other women. None of this will get you anywhere. As Bagheera says, Take The Lead. Sort out the finances in a fair and sensible way. Start doing the other things around the House that you've put off. Bring some of your dynamism into the Home and Shake Things Up. Do things that are unexpected, and without the expectation of sex built into them.

(5) Once her "sex holiday" is over, you are going to have to sit down with her and spell out what you want from this Marriage and from Her. Describe to her what You want - frequency, details. Be direct and honest. If its the case (I don't know) that this is a deal-breaker i.e. that you are willing to divorce if this marriage doesn't change, then you must state this as well. If your first instinct is that you would Not be willing to divorce over this, then you have some more thinking to do. We each have to decide how we're going to live our life, because we only get one. It has to be down to you as to how far you're prepared to go to get what you want. Think about what value you put on a proper sex life and therefore what value you put on yourself. Think about what value your wife puts on you and therefore what value she puts on her marriage.

(6) This may sound counterintuitive, but Too Much safety and security is bad - it leads to laziness and complacency. I see it as a big problem in marriages. Being told that you are strong enough to leave this marriage if it isn't what you want, may be what your wife needs to wake her up and work with you on making it what you want.

(7) To make any real progress you will also need to state a time limit to your wife, by which there will have to be substantial change in the Marriage, or you will leave. Its up to you - 6 months? Much more and it seems to lose its sense of realism.

S&A

[CharlieBrown]

Just returned to town after being on the road and will post my responses shortly. In the meantime, I am not sure how to post links to my past posts so if anyone could explain that, I would apprectiate it. Also, I changed my screen name about a year ago and my older posts had more background. Anyone know how to find old posts under a now-dead screen name? Thanks.

CB

[CharlieBrown]

Haven't been able to figure out how to provide links to my previous posts, so I will summarize my sitch:

Married 12 yrs, together 14. Two kids, 5&8. Story not unlike many here in that aside from my wife making me feel loved (including, but not limited to sex) marriage is good. But, as we all know that is like saying I really like everything about where I live except there is no oxygen there. W was brought up in a conservative Catholic house and really took to it. She doesn't ever touch herself and up until we were married never let me touch her either. Being the complete idiot I am, I ignored this pre-marriage and told myself that once we were married, things would get better, but looking back we met the definition of SSM, before the M.

In our M, she has opened up a bit as I have introduced toys (which I very occasionally use on her) and other foreplay, but she is still super uptight about oral. When I do her, she always protests (before, of course) and she almost never reciprocates (it has been a couple years). We ML about 2-3 times a month and it has to be when the moon, sun, and stars are all in alignment, and usually with much suggestion from me. If it was up to her, once a month would be great and I would like 2-3 times/week. Plus, she rarely says ILY, initiates any affection towards me, or even reciprocates. That is what we both saw in our homes growing up, but we had completely different reads on it as she thinks that is a normal marriage because her parents were that way, I saw my parents as miserable and never wanted my marriage to be like that.

As for what we have tried, I have read many books, including SSM. The problem I have seen with the SSM theory is that it takes all the pressure/awareness off the LD spouse because there are no R talks and creates a catch-22 for the HD spouse because the lack of communication not followed by improvement leads to frustration, which unresolved leads to resentment (which is where I am after many years of trying this). We have sat down and tried to come to compromise (she doesn't follow through on committments made).

I actually felt like we were making some limited progress (but progress nonetheless) after she was let go from her job in Nov. and was a stay-at-home mom. But in February -April tthree things happened:

1) She had a softball inutero fibroid that she said has made ml uncomfortable and has led to irregular periods. This was supposed to be removed in February in outpatient surgery and had to be postponed due to high blood pressure (due to the fibroid). She was really bummed about the delay.

2) She took a new job and started mid-March. While this was a positive for us financially, she was getting used to not being employed and really enjoying it. It was however a fantasy scenario because she had a full severance through March. When she started working again, she was not only stressed out by all her training (she is a pharma rep and needs to learn a totally new part of the body and new products) but she was resentful that she needed to work at all and didn't seem to ever "get" that her income was needed.

3. In early April, after going on meds, her BP was down and they went to do the surgery again. Unfortunately, there were complications and her day surgury turned into essentially a c-section and we have been on a "sexual sabbatical" since under doctors orders. She goes back Thursday and my guess is that she will be cleared to ML.

Some other background. I love my wife and still find her very attractive. We do date-nights at least once a month and we try to get away as a couple every couple months. While I am not a perfect husband, I do my share around the house and with the kids and we live a comfortable upper-middle class life. And yes, I am a nice guy (and have read NMMNG).

In the past week we have done two things that have been productive:

1. We sat down and I drew two columns on a legal pad, one side had our recurring expenses today and the other column had what they would be if we "dialed down" such as cutting back on cable and if she wasn't working. We went through each column and added to the list items I had forgotten about and tweaked others. I was very conservative on what we were really spending and she saw that. At the end, I subtracted each from our incomes and my income if she wasn't working and it was obvious that even if we made lifestyle changes, we need her income. We agreed on some changes anyway and goals for the next year and will look at it again in a year.
2. That went so well that she did the same thing with me on houshold chores. She has been stressed about going back to work since she will be working longer days and she wanted me to see all that needs to get done and make some agreements on me picking up some of these items. I thought that went well also.

I am thinking of doing a third "legal pad exercise" tonight or tomorrow (prior to the end of the sexual sabbatical) with my expectations for our love life, not just including sex. Because this is an R discussion, I am not sure if I should proceed with it, but she needs to know my expectations and have an understanding of the negative ramifications if she doesn't.

By the way, I love my W and kids and have every want to improve things and no intent to divorce. That being said, we have several good friends who had good marriages that disintegrated over the past year, including one very recently that has us both pretty shaken up. I think it is important to "divorce-proof" our marriage to keep this possibility out because even though I don't plan on it, neither did some of them until they woke up one day and hated each other.

Sorry for the long post, but I needed to repost my sitch.

CB

[LG nm12]

Hi CB,

I don't know about the piece of paper for the talk about intimacy... Kind of... business-y. Not very loving.

I can say that my H didn't "get it" until I really explained what was at stake and then I didn't let it drop.

Your first goal will be to get her on board. If she agrees with you and states that she wants intimacy in your marriage, and commits to working on it... You are in an excellent position. That is a blessing in itself.

Is she willing to read SSM, Passionate Marriage, or any other book? This, again, would be a blessing. I know she has to study for her new job, but hopefully once she is trained, she'll have some time to read.

Because you are the man in the relationship, I would think that it is up to you to initiate and do the work to break through all of her barriers.

My feeling is that she DOES want it, but she is afraid.

That is not to say that you should force her against her will, but you should definitely PUSH, be brave, and keep trying to initiate and take what you want. Don't monitor to see if she might be willing -- Just approach and initiate when YOU get the urge. Let her say no, let her brush you off, let her decide when she is willing to participate. Keep working, little by little, to push through her resistance, keep trying. Don't get so discouraged and rejected that you are afraid of being rejected again. You have to grow a callous to rejection.

I'll think more on this...

Lucky

[CharlieBrown]

LG,

Thanks for the suggestions and I will look forward to more if you come up with any.

As for reading SSM and others, I have tried. She read the first couple chapters of SSM and refused to read the rest. She doesn't read a lot of books (but loves magazines) and said it was because of that, but I think it hit a nerve and she was afraid it might prove to her that some or much of this is her fault too. She is pretty stubborn and I think not reading more was a defense mechanism more than anything. As much as I would like her to read it, I don't think she will.

CB

[LG nm12]

Hi CB,

Has she agreed that she wants intimacy with you? Is she willing to "work"?

Lucky

[CharlieBrown]

LG,

It has been a while since I brought the subject up. This is a core reason I was thinking of having an R talk focused on what I would like to do and seeing where she is. My read on it is that if you asked her this question she would say yes and she is working on it. She has told me this in the past when I brought the subject up but hasn't been able to give any examples of how, other than sitting down to discuss it. At that point she gets defensive into a "I will never be able to please you" attitude.

CB