How does one reconcile the potential and likely one-sidedness of these DB "friendships"? I am not by any means challenging your post, I think it is beautiful and right on. The WAS often behaves as quite the opposite of a "friend."
All of your DB efforts are going to be one-sided for a while. Faith, confidence and boundaries are all healthy fuel for keeping the engine chugging.
I DO NOT know how to set boundaries and deal with the accompanying emotions that emerge from H. I think this is why I take such baby steps, so that I can practice maintaining civil communication with him even when we are dealing with sticky matters. Many have advised me to take swift, bold actions in my sitch. And, maybe that would be the better way to go IF I were a different person. I fear his reactions and I fear my own if things spiral too far too fast. I want to take this time to work on myself and develop the clarity and wisdom to differentiate between my perception of what is happening and what is actually happening. Just as I wouldn't want H to make huge decisions from where he is right now, I doubt I should either. But, stagnating and just being "nice" to someone who is taking advantage and only looking out for himself is purgatory. So, I take those baby steps...and hope I am heading in a healthy direction.
Coach- One of the most important elements of a healthy relationship is respect. I'm realizing that I don't have much respect for H and haven't in a while (his spending and behavior was erratic and not considerate of the interests of our family). Also, I was really critical of his sense of humor, his tendency to exaggerate and his fawning over celebrities. But, I know that I can't even be friends with him if I can't respect him. That is something I want to work on. I think that people tend to be more of what you see them as. Or is that just denial? Thanks for the help here.
This:- (that its a necessary pre-condition to) "have a spouse uninvolved in the A to start the friendship process"
In my mind this doesn't square with some of the other things on this thread...there seems to be an implication that someone who attempts this while an A is active doesn't respect themselves; but if friendship was initially a precursor to that A, and if the LBS takes the view that he/she will not offer the hand of friendship then I'm left wondering ho the LBS makes any inroads or how the LBS shows him/herself to be the better choice.
Do you not think that it is possible that a LBS can have respect and confidence while still not condoning the A and still offering friendship - without being a doormat of course!?
I'm not suggesting trying to suck up to the LBS by being a "best friend" - that topic has been well picked over by PDTs previously on these boards and I have moved myself over to his perspective on this, but if reconciliation is going to happen, it seems to me foolish not to exploit human nature for all its worth.
I read here a post from an old-poster that "quiet, persistent loving without pressure" -for which one might read 'friendship' is "a force hard to resist" - what do you think of that tack if combined with a healthy dose of confidence, self-respect, boundaries, no-pressure and distance ...the alternative seems to me to be an "ultimatum" - no matter how you try to dress it up - that I won't offer you friendship - widely recognised to be a pre-cursor to an "intimate relationship" until you give up your "friendship" with the OP...after all that's not it works when you're developing an intimate relationship with someone outside of these circumstances - in fact that approach wouldn't get you anywhere!
Coach - I'm not criticising any one approach here -just trying to understand my own situation and to get different perspectives and ideas - and BTW -I think the stuff on this thread is great food for thought!
Yep, I agree, very good & interesting thread, Coach. Ah, but don't forget guilt which walks hand in hand with fear for the WAS (& the LBS sometimes too).
Me39, XH45 Kids 3 dogs, 2 cats Divorced 6/4/09 Tricky thing is not how you live, but how you live with yourself. (POTC)
Coach- One of the most important elements of a healthy relationship is respect. I'm realizing that I don't have much respect for H and haven't in a while (his spending and behavior was erratic and not considerate of the interests of our family). Also, I was really critical of his sense of humor, his tendency to exaggerate and his fawning over celebrities. But, I know that I can't even be friends with him if I can't respect him. That is something I want to work on. I think that people tend to be more of what you see them as. Or is that just denial? Thanks for the help here.
This is something I struggle with. I used to have immense respect for my husband. I admired him for his commitment to his country, his family, and to me and our R. Now, I have a hard time viewing him as anything other than duplicitous and a coward. Yet, I still love him more than I can put into words, not just for who he was, but who I still see underneath the crud on a regular basis. It hurts still to think that he could have drifted so far from everything he ever held dear--his principles, his integrity.
I wish I had a huge fan to blow the fog away. He visibly cringed this weekend when someone told him how lucky he was to have a wife so dedicated to his career and him.
Living God's blessings with grace and dignity~ SMW
M40/H36 T16/M14 4K B2/08 S4/08 current
Love never gives up, never loses faith, is always hopeful, and endures through every circumstance. I Corinthians 13:7
He visibly cringed this weekend when someone told him how lucky he was to have a wife so dedicated to his career and him.
They are choosing to see only the negative because that is the only way they can break free and rationalize these choices that are so antithetical to the values we know (or assume) they hold dear. When someone acknowledges us in that way it is a wrench in their paradigm. It is the only way.
That is so painful. I'm sorry. I'm so in it with you.
Hopefully Coach will have some insights about the respect issue...
ON the respect issue. I think the way I see my H he felt he wasn't respected for a long time. Now granted, he never OPENED HIS MOUTH and told me how he felt. He thought he was last in our lives.
Looking back, I can completely understand how he saw and felt it that way.
So, while it hurts and drives me crazy, I know I can't demand anything from him.
He has also cringed when someone told him what a beautiful wife he had and how lucky he was. I think I saw him gulp when he heard it. All he could do was mutter thank you under his breath. His face turned beat red afterward.
He also gets very upset if anyone shows any sympathy to me, because then he looks like the bad guy and no one knows all of the issues. In other words, no one saw him unhappy and getting to the point that he couldn't take it any more.
He has also walked away from everything he ever valued.
Yet, I try to see him as a hurt little boy that is having a tantrum sometimes. My son would do that occasionally when he was little and I understood he couldn't help it. Right now the WA's are going on emotion, not logic.
Can you or should you respect it? Not necessarily. Do you need to address it directly? It won't help. Cheeseless tunnel.
Me 45, H 46, S 23, M 26, Together 30, Bomb 6-2-08, S 6-19-08; H left 12-29-08. H home 12-09, Still MLC in 2012! Me- I have my big girl panties on. Bring it.
Coach- One of the most important elements of a healthy relationship is respect. I'm realizing that I don't have much respect for H and haven't in a while (his spending and behavior was erratic and not considerate of the interests of our family). Also, I was really critical of his sense of humor, his tendency to exaggerate and his fawning over celebrities. But, I know that I can't even be friends with him if I can't respect him. That is something I want to work on. I think that people tend to be more of what you see them as. Or is that just denial? Thanks for the help here.
This is something I struggle with. I used to have immense respect for my husband. I admired him for his commitment to his country, his family, and to me and our R. Now, I have a hard time viewing him as anything other than duplicitous and a coward. Yet, I still love him more than I can put into words, not just for who he was, but who I still see underneath the crud on a regular basis. It hurts still to think that he could have drifted so far from everything he ever held dear--his principles, his integrity.
[color:#FF6666] I feel the opposite. I feel like WAS has more guts than I do to admit that he wasn't happy and do something about it. I respect that. Do I respect his methods or the fact that he left before giving it 100% effort to save or marriage? NO! That is just my sitch though and I know we are all different. It is just that I realized that a lack of respect for EACH OTHER is why we are here now. As well as a lack of respect for our M. Funny, my H told me during the fighting when he left that he had no motivation to do things for me. That I made him feel stagnant. And he literally has OFFERED to DO MORE for me (acts of service) since he left than he had for some time in the R. WEIRD!!!??? The integrity is something that I too have struggled with since H left me. During the begging/crying stage, I told him he had none, and he was completely baffled that I would say such a thing. I said there was no way he could have integrity when he was not being honest with me about things. He was almost offended. Goes to show that they are not thinking of what they are doing as an integrity issue. WAS THINKS THEY ARE DOING THE RIGHT THING. At least for a time they do, or are completely struggling with what the right thing is. [/color]
I wish I had a huge fan to blow the fog away. He visibly cringed this weekend when someone told him how lucky he was to have a wife so dedicated to his career and him.
Yes, we could all use one ENORMOUS, beyond industrial fan to blow all of the fog away. Well put.
Living God's blessings with grace and dignity~ SMW
Well, I tried to use colored text in my response there...and it clearly didn't work...so I will repost my response here:
I feel the opposite. I feel like WAS has more guts than I do to admit that he wasn't happy and do something about it. I respect that. Do I respect his methods or the fact that he left before giving it 100% effort to save or marriage? NO! That is just my sitch though and I know we are all different. It is just that I realized that a lack of respect for EACH OTHER is why we are here now. As well as a lack of respect for our M. Funny, my H told me during the fighting when he left that he had no motivation to do things for me. That I made him feel stagnant. And he literally has OFFERED to DO MORE for me (acts of service) since he left than he had for some time in the R. WEIRD!!!??? The integrity is something that I too have struggled with since H left me. During the begging/crying stage, I told him he had none, and he was completely baffled that I would say such a thing. I said there was no way he could have integrity when he was not being honest with me about things. He was almost offended. Goes to show that they are not thinking of what they are doing as an integrity issue. WAS THINKS THEY ARE DOING THE RIGHT THING. At least for a time they do, or are completely struggling with what the right thing is.
I feel the opposite. I feel like WAS has more guts than I do to admit that he wasn't happy and do something about it. I respect that.
I agree with that and actually, the separating is not the part I don't respect in my sitch. It is the dumping all blame on me and chasing after Rock Star. Failing to be here and present for most of the past 5 months to face the repercussions of what he had initiated, not dealing with finances or the mess in his office or the hurt of our children, bragging about Rock star and celebrities etc.
Now, in his mind, he is absolutely fighting for and chasing after the only thing he thinks will make him whole and capable of being present and taking care of our finances. It is the only path he sees as viable. I suppose I can't quite respect it but...well, I can understand it. Funny though, just writing this, I am getting that the bragging is very much his way of saying, "see, I AM somebody and I know what I'm doing and this is all going to be worth it." It is just doesn't jibe with my reality and my values (kids need him now more than ever). But, I already feel a little better about him just writing his POV. I feel sorry for him that he is so insecure but I get it and I guess I can work toward a modicum of respect. Maybe I just shouldn't have HIM as my husband...cue tears.
I fear his reactions and I fear my own if things spiral too far too fast. I want to take this time to work on myself and develop the clarity and wisdom to differentiate between my perception of what is happening and what is actually happening. Just as I wouldn't want H to make huge decisions from where he is right now, I doubt I should either. But, stagnating and just being "nice" to someone who is taking advantage and only looking out for himself is purgatory. So, I take those baby steps...and hope I am heading in a healthy direction.