Why and How to be Friends with Your WAS.

[confusedinpa]

So whether or not you reconcile one of your goals should be get yourself to the point where you love yourelf enougth to be able to love (philia) others, be a friend, and give with no expectations. You have to be pretty secure in who you are to do this. To get here you need to do work. This in itself it why DBing is valuable.

Becoming friends. Let's define friends first. From Wiki:

Friendship is co-operative and supportive behavior between two or more people. In this sense, the term connotes a relationship which involves mutual knowledge, esteem, and affection and respect along with a degree of rendering service to friends in times of need or crisis. Friends will welcome each other's company and exhibit loyalty towards each other, often to the point of altruism. Their tastes will usually be similar and may converge, and they will share enjoyable activities. They will also engage in mutually helping behavior, such as exchange of advice and the sharing of hardship. A friend is someone who may often demonstrate reciprocating and reflective behaviors. Yet for many, friendship is nothing more than the trust that someone or something will not harm them.

Value that is found in friendships is often the result of a friend demonstrating the following on a consistent basis:

the tendency to desire what is best for the other,
sympathy and empathy,
honesty, perhaps in situations where it may be difficult for others to speak the truth, especially in terms of pointing out the perceived faults of one's counterpart,
mutual understanding.

Here is the bridge from fear to love:
- wanting what is best for the other - true giving
- sympathy and empathy-- "you need space, OK I understand that."
- honesty-- healthy boundaries, communication, and transparency
- mutual understanding --validation, no defensiveness
I would add a big one here because it is at the heart of loving yourself - forgiveness. Accept yours/his/hers faults and love anyway.

Love is a verb. It's what you do that shows your spouse you love them. Yes that is possible while seperated. Be a great parent, I read here once that women love to see their husbands play with their kids. I was all over that. See things from your WAS perspective, you can't be effective at that if you are over on the fear/anger side. Take away all of their objections and make the changes for yourself. Make yourself attractive from the inside out.

So why be friends? It is the first step to intimate love. Jealousy could work but in my mind you are starting the relationship over based on fear not love. (still have the work to do.) I want to be the kind of friend to my W that is unbeatable. I want to flip that fear of staying vs fear of leaving into the joy of staying outweighs any potential joy of leaving. It's at this stage that I can continue down the path of deepening the love. This is the second goal of DBing.

I know some of the DBers won't reconcile their M, some of the posters I learned the most from didn't. Getting across the divide to the "land of love" (sounds real cheesy I know) from the fog of fear and land of snakes will make you a stronger, wiser, and more loving person. If your spouse had a addiction how would you handle it? Just try it and see what happens. You all can handle it.

I welcome some dialouge, questions, feedback and input.

Coach,

I had actually completely dismissed the possiblity of being friends with my WAW (to the point where I told her that if we do wind up divorced, we will not be friends as I can't be friends with the woman I love and not be able to show her).

Since reading your post, and the dashing of any hope that I had of my wife let go of the hurt and giving us another chance, I've been thinking about this one a lot.

As you've seen in many of my posts, I've proclaimed how I love my wife.

So if I really loved my wife, why I can't I continue to show her that if we are divorced and while we are seperated?

Is it selfish of me not to be friends as it may enable her to proceed with the divorce and continue out of my life as my wife? She will always be part of my life as the mother of my children.

I guess part of the thought to throw out there is what is the difference between a true friend and a spouse? From what you've posted, the thing that jumps out at me is the physical/sexual aspect behind it. But as you posted, friendship is the first step to intimate love (I assume you mean physical/sex here).

When I met my wife, it went right to physical. We became friends over time and fell in love. However, I think along the way, I didn't realize what being friends really meant. I thought it was enough that we were in love so I took the friendship for granted.

So now during this extremely difficult situation we are all in, if we truly love our spouses and want them back, why is it so hard for many of us to decide to be friends? Is it because we want more than that? So are we acting selfishly so I guess the next challenge is would you be able to be friends with someone who is acting selfishly? Or are we percieving that our WAS is acting selfishly so why would we want to be friends? So then why would we want them back.

So many questions, but I think the heart of the matter that goes through my head is do I truly love my wife? If I do, is it enough that I can be friends with her....

[Thinker]

I am actually jealous of your wives that they have husbands that are so thoughtful and give this much of a sh*t. It is all I wanted from my H and I was close to walking away myself (at least fantasized about it.

Don't be too jealous. What you are seeing here is the new, improved, post-bomb husbands. I can definitely say that I was thoughtless and self-absorbed enough for enough years that my W stopped fantasizing about walking away and started to do it. Two years ago she made a conscious decision to cut herself off emotionally because it was too painful for her to stay connected.

You hit the nail though. I feel that H is center of the universe and I need to create my own universe. My instinct is that he really needs to be center of the universe and will have to find someone else to fill his void...perhaps that is part of my resistance. I see a path to a healthier me but no clear path back to an "us." Just painful but it is what it is.

I think that in many ways, I was the same way as your H. It has been a hard paradigm shift for me. Here is an analogy that I have developed in my mind that has helped me.

-----

In my 20's, I saw my life as a canoe. I was in it, seated in he back seat (from which you drive / steer a canoe), paddling and setting off on a journey. The issue that I had was that a canoe is a boat for 2 people and can really only be managed well with a second paddler. There was an empty space in the front of my canoe. I needed someone to join my life and help me paddle my canoe on my journey.

I invited my W to join me and she accepted and we set off. I never noticed her wistful glances back at the kayak she had left behind us on the shore.

During the next 10 years we had a great journey - lots of travels, adventures and some storms, but in my mind it continued to be my canoe - my life. I was taking it where I wanted it to go. I would get frustrated with my W because to me, she was not paddling hard enough, or not paddling in the right direction. Finally, in a particularly stormy period, I gave up trying to convince her to help all-together and focused on paddling the canoe by myself - getting it to where I wanted by my own individual hard work and willpower.

And then, recently, I suddenly noticed that she was no longer in my canoe at all. Somehow, during all of this, she had retrieved her kayak and was now paddling by herself - and I began to flounder. Why did she do that? How was I going to manage my 2-person boat without her? How dare she?

It is only in the past weeks that I have slowly come to realize that my paradigm for my life was wrong in the first place. My life should not be a Canoe! My life should be a kayak!

Now life as an independent, 1-person kayak initially sounds lonely and "wrong", but I have spent enough time in both Kayaks and canoes to see where this new paradigm takes me. In a canoe, one person is always in charge, shouting commands, and staring at the other person's back. No real conversation is possible, and arguments are built in. If both people are in kayaks, however, you can happily paddle along next to each other talking. Each person is responsible for their own journey, but you decide to make the journey together.

So now I am in a scary place. It is clear to me that my W can choose to paddle off in her own direction at any time. I can't do anything about it (as much as I still want to ) There is no way that she would allow me to rope her shiny new kayak to my ungainly old canoe. I have to let her go. At the same time, I have not yet finished my efforts (using a hammer, saw and other tools of destruction) to rebuild my life from a canoe into a kayak. I can't even keep up with her yet, yet alone convince her to paddle along together with me.

So right now I have to keep working on me - rebuilding my boat into a sturdy, independent, 1-person kayak. I am hopeful and confident that when I am done, my W will want to join me in paddling into new adventures together...

...and if she doesn't, I'll have a great life paddling ahead alone

...and in that case, someone else will want to join me.

----

Maybe this helps you understand you H a bit better. He is still in his own boat, and thinks that others are there to help him with his life, rather than him being independent and sharing his life with others who are in their own lives.


I hope that helps you. Being the center of the universe does not mean you are alone, or that others are reduced - just parallel universes together.

[AlexEN]

Thinker,

That is some good stuff... And I thought all Cornell guys were engineers... ;->

-AlexEN

[fb2]

Hi Coach, I've been following your posts for a while and see a certain character and purity. I realize you and your wife are somewhat of a textbook case for reconciling in the middle of the sordid mess most people are in here with affairs, step children, rebound dating and all sorts of real and imagined dysfunctions. Anyway for whatever its worth would you and your dear wife please take a look at 'kalni' - this is a woman with the heart of a lion. See what you both can suggest. Thank you.

[aliveandkicking]

What you are seeing here is the new, improved, post-bomb husbands. I can definitely say that I was thoughtless and self-absorbed enough for enough years that my W stopped fantasizing about walking away and started to do it. Two years ago she made a conscious decision to cut herself off emotionally because it was too painful for her to stay connected.

Of course. I still give you a lot of credit for doing the work and seeing your part. H and I both cut off from each other in our own ways. However, he's just still running. I think that is a lot of my resistance to detaching. That is what I was doing pre-bomb and it was destructive...now that the light is on, I'd like to do something about it; of course I wish he would want to as well but I can't control that.


I love the kayak analogy and I get it, I do. And, I wonder, do the kids just swim from boat to boat? And can they even fit in the kayak?

[Thinker]

What you are seeing here is the new, improved, post-bomb husbands. I can definitely say that I was thoughtless and self-absorbed enough for enough years that my W stopped fantasizing about walking away and started to do it. Two years ago she made a conscious decision to cut herself off emotionally because it was too painful for her to stay connected.

Of course. I still give you a lot of credit for doing the work and seeing your part. H and I both cut off from each other in our own ways. However, he's just still running. I think that is a lot of my resistance to detaching. That is what I was doing pre-bomb and it was destructive...now that the light is on, I'd like to do something about it; of course I wish he would want to as well but I can't control that.

I had the same issue. I wasn't there for her, so she left...so how is me not being there for her going to attract her back???

I had to learn to differentiate - in the initial stages of the M I wasn't there, so she backed off. As she was leaving, however, I felt what was happening and I started clinging, controlling and pursuing. That was unattractive and drove her away. This is the first part I needed to undo - stop clinging, controlling and pursuing. This is where you are now.

Only after that can you start rebuilding an R that is strong, independent and attractive.

I love the kayak analogy and I get it, I do. And, I wonder, do the kids just swim from boat to boat? And can they even fit in the kayak?

If you carry the analogy to it's end, then the kids are in their own (small) kayaks - it's just that currently we are towing them.

Sooner or later they are going to set off on their own and most likely in a different direction.

[aliveandkicking]

If you carry the analogy to it's end, then the kids are in their own (small) kayaks - it's just that currently we are towing them.

Ok Thinker. That actually works for me!!! Thank you.

The other stuff is so confusing to me. Even now, the drama that just ensued (read my post on my thread if you can stomach some whiny bad DBing)...I realize that I had been the one busting H's balls to do something about the finances and while my approach would be and had been "live within our means and pay down the debt," that doesn't work for him (would require major lifestyle change). So now there is a bit of "F*ck you b*tch" I'm taking care of business and I'll give you some money and you can sh*t the f*ck up." Not literally but just somewhere in the tone. I mean in some way, I think he thinks he is giving me what I want because the money issues trumped everything. I was so miserable with the instability. And now, I am still dealing with him on money and kids, the two things that he felt I prioritized over him.


I haven't felt clingy or needy or controlling these past few months, I never initiate contact, don't ask questions or demand anything...maybe it is just energetic...

I'm sure our last convo came off as the "old" me despite the fact that I was really pretty measured in my tone. (I'll pay you to read it; oh right, I have no $$)

I am starting to get the detachment concept. I just have some serious issues surrounding this. (again on my thread).

Back to the friends topic. Dare I say that Coach's experience was a tad different in that there were no OP and they reconciled (had a fixable sitch as it turned out). Maybe some sitches are just not fixable. Maybe some Rs need not progress to "friendship." Maybe we just do the best we can.

Still, I want to be "friendly" with H.

[mnt_dreams]

GFI2,

Do you not think that it is possible that a LBS can have respect and confidence while still not condoning the A and still offering friendship - without being a doormat of course!?

Yes I think what you suggest has merit. The boundaries and self-respect would be key to maintaining your own well being. The friendship you are describing is kinda of how I imagine you would deal with a family member get thru a addiction. Non-enabling, consistent, patient, confronting bad behavior, let them deal with consequences, detached and there to offer appropiate help when asked.
This would be a very one-sided R for a while. Magnifies the need to take care of yourself plus that would modeling great self-care. When you love like that be prepared for some push back from friends and relatives. Knowing what you want, what you can handle and willing to give is a powerful statement.
Cheers

I agree! As long as we respect ourselves and have good boundaries, why not hold out the olive branch and work on the friendship? Most of us would have more empathy for S if it involved addiction or illness... something about just walking away from a M without adequate explanation is much tougher to understand and empathize with. But there are reasons (sometimes unknown to us) for the walk-away and I believe the WAS must have moments of sadness, guilt, and remorse.

I'm trying to really live out 1 Cor 13 - if I really love H, I will be patient and kind, not envious, boastful, keep a record of wrongs, etc. I'm still struggling, but living out those verses are my desire and goal.

And I also agree that it is a one-sided R, and there has been quiet push back in my sitch from family and friends. But if we are committed to the R, then we persevere despite the lopsidedness or contrary advice from well-meaning friends/family.

[SmileysPerson]

I'm at work offline on the HOW bit. The "mechanical" how -- "how do I [do] this" -- might be too personal or, perhaps, "personalistic" (I mean, I think everyone's different). The more broadly philosophical HOW I think I'm getting a bit of leverage on.

This bit of @mnt_dream's post above - I'm trying to really live out 1 Cor 13 - if I really love H, I will be patient and kind, not envious, boastful, keep a record of wrongs, etc. I'm still struggling, but living out those verses are my desire and goal - is, IMO, a really important bit of the puzzle.

More to come.

[Thinker]

A bit of background for anyone not familiar with it:

1 Corinthians 13 (13th Chapter of the First Epistle to the Corinthians in the Bible) describes the concept of agape (selfless love)

(verses 4-8)

4Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. 5It is not rude, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. 6Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. 7It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres.

8Love Never Fails.