Hello Kittyfish & Sandi2!

[BigJohn]

Ladies,

My wife is a borderline WAW and I really need some feedback from those who have been in my wife's shoes. I just finished reading "His Needs, Her Needs" by Willard Harley and have realized I have really neglected many of my wife's basic needs, especially conversation, affection and family commitment. Not that I haven't contributed in these areas, but not nearly enough as I should have. As I have noted in previous posts, her current position is "I'm done"(emotionally exhausted), she dreads thinking about a future with me (she cries when thinking about opening her heart up to me again) and will not give up OM in a deep EA. She is very detached from me right now in all aspects and has expressed a strong interest in divorcing, perhaps "within the next year" as we can not afford to physically separate right now due to financial reasons.

She has spoken of ideally getting remarried to OM in the near future, however OM lives in another state and I will not agree to have her relocate with my kids, nor will he relocate to our state (this is my understanding)if we divorce. Therefore my wife has told both OM and me that she will find someone else after leaving me if OM won't wait/ relocate/ or he becomes unavailable in order to have her needs met.

We currently do not have health insurance, so I am paying OOP for weekly counseling (only I go now) and can't afford anti-depressants. So, I am just now starting to get a handle on all of my emotions after much previous arguing/debating(logical thinking)along with pleading and pursuing.

I am currently giving her "space" and limiting my contact with her but don't think LRT is going to be effective with her given our particular sitch. I am also doing some 180 behaviors, working out at the gym and spending more time with the kids. I'd like to implement some of Harley's techniques to refill my "love bank" account with her- (some marriage counselors suggest competing head on with the OM)- however they seem mostly dependent on a willing spouse, which she is mostly not.

I know that I am in a particularly bad situation with my wife. I guess what I am looking for from you both in particular is ideas on developing the best strategy to possibly win back my wife- get her to stop all contact with the OM and reconsider our marriage relationship (don't know in which order that might happen). I realize that many of the changes I need to make and the things I need to do must be implemented as soon as possible and/or all at once if possible. Given my circumstances, what should be my priorities in terms of changes/things to work on?

(Yes, I know that generally speaking I need to focus right now on me and the kids. I am also frustrated in recognizing my own need to detach from her in order to think clearly myself, control my emotions and preserve some feelings for her during this crisis.)

Any advice/feedback would be greatly appreciated!

[Kittyfish]

My opinion is that you cannot work on recovery with OM in the picture- she will not be receptive to it.

Do you think she would agree to put a stop to her relationship with OM for a period of time? 30 or 60 days? Do you think she would fill out the EN questionaires from Harley??

[BigJohn]

My opinion is that you cannot work on recovery with OM in the picture- she will not be receptive to it.

Do you think she would agree to put a stop to her relationship with OM for a period of time? 30 or 60 days? Do you think she would fill out the EN questionaires from Harley??

Kitty,

Thank you so much for responding. I really value your perspective and feel that feedback from gals like you and Sandi could really help me get a handle on my sitch.

To answer your question, no, she refuses to stop contact with the OM. She claims to have tried 2 times previously in April and May to stop contact with the OM and that in each instance those attempts lasted about three weeks. However, she later revealed that she had occasionally texted the OM during the 3 week periods "to check in on him". Regrettably it was during those times that I was still grappling mightily with getting my own emotions under control and slid back once or twice into R talk with her.

After the last R talk, we agreed to try again. I gave her 1 1/2 weeks of "space", being very laid back, friendly, etc. while under the impression she was backing off contacting OM. Did a backslide after finding out she had not kept the agreement to no contact with OM after about 4 days into it. We argued and she said that during the "break", she had had more time to think clearly and had determined yet again she did not want to work on our marriage. We argued and that's when she mentioned her one year plan to stick around before separating/divorce.

As mentioned in my prior posts, there have been a few occasions where she has appeared to "snap out of it" momentarily to tell me, while crying, that she is afraid to open her heart back up to me only to be disappointed and "trapped again". Then the attitude ("the wall"?) comes back and it's game on again, telling me and everyone else that "people don't change", that even though I want to change now she doesn't care,(though she says she feels bad about feeling that way) and that she wants to marry the OM and start a new life. It's just crazy- everyone in her life who cares about her is telling her to drop the OM and give me and the kids another chance! She acknowledges this but doesn't give a damn- or so she says.

So it appears that I am on my own for now- I will need to do all the heavy lifting here. Any general ideas on what I can do right now? Any clues in my prior posts that might shed light on a particular course of action?

[Kittyfish]

What are your boundaries? Are you guys living together? Is she depending on you for financial support? Forgive me if I am missing something- I haven't had time to go back and research posts.

I wouldn't enable her affair by paying for her cell or computer time.

[BigJohn]

What are your boundaries? Are you guys living together? Is she depending on you for financial support? Forgive me if I am missing something- I haven't had time to go back and research posts.

I wouldn't enable her affair by paying for her cell or computer time.

We are still living together and sleeping in the same bed, however no intimacy since shortly after discovery of the EA.

She has been out of work for 6 months and only recently got a part time job, so she has been totally dependent on me financially. Given the economy and our current financial situation, I anticipate this to be the case for some time.

I have not canceled her cell phone service, although doing so and smashing her damn I-Phone are both very tempting. Not sure if that would help my cause in the long run as one of her complaints is that I have some control issues (she can't seem to distinguish right now between a concerned husband and someone who is trying to act like her Dad).

I am trying to strike as best a balance as I can without enabling her in some way, shape or form. That's tough to do when she seems to have most of the control right now.

[sandi2]

Hi Big John,

I am just now seeing your post or I would have stopped by. Glad you were smart to come to this DB board b/c I can tell you that is saved my sanity and my M.

Before going into a long post.....as I usually do.... .....I would like to ask you to clear something up for me, please. Why do you say that the LRT would not work on your W? What do you see the LRT as being?

I'll be anxious to hear from you.

Take care,
Sandi

[BigJohn]

Hi Big John,

I am just now seeing your post or I would have stopped by. Glad you were smart to come to this DB board b/c I can tell you that is saved my sanity and my M.

Before going into a long post.....as I usually do.... .....I would like to ask you to clear something up for me, please. Why do you say that the LRT would not work on your W? What do you see the LRT as being?

I'll be anxious to hear from you.

Take care,
Sandi

Sandi,

It' great to hear from you! I have to apologize, I've also posted previously in WAS and Newcomers so if you would like additional history on my sitch, you might want to check out those earlier posts of mine.

Regarding LRT, I'm currently working on stopping the pursuing altogether. That's a tough one as I am a "fixer" by nature.

The GALing is tough as I'm limited to GAL due to my kids, plus there is the general complaint from her that I've been selfish in the past in pursuing only things that interest me and not necessarily her. So there is a concern with regards to playing right into her hands and validating her perception by GAL-ing. (I know, it really shouldn't matter what she thinks right now given the EA.)

Thirdly, I'm somewhat skeptical of any effect the LRT may have given how committed my wife currently is to the OM, the regular communication they have along with the apparent shared goal of the "one year to go before W files for divorce". That stated goal really bothers me in particular because it gives both of them a time line to work towards and prepare for a shared objective- it kinda takes the steam out of any LRT in my mind.

As of right now, I have only been able to go "quasi- dark" in two instances for approximately two weeks each before experiencing some backsliding. After the first backslide, my W remarked that this period was beneficial in that she could not "hate" me but that her mind had not changed. After the second backslide, my W commented that it was nice that we weren't arguing during this period but that her mind had not changed. She also commented on the awkwardness of having very limited physical and verbal contact. (I did not acknowledge this, but I too felt it very awkward.)

I realize that in reading some of the other posts that I'm probably just not being patient enough.

I'm looking forward to your feedback. Thanks!

[sandi2]

Hi Big John,

I went to Newcomers and read the post on that thread. I'm not trying to boss you but it helps to have your thread on one forum so people can find you easier. You can go to other people's post and reach out to them and ask them to stop by your thread. It helps to build up a support system faster. Of course, Newcomers is the most visited forum. The closer the forums are toward the bottom of the list, it seems the less people visit them.

Anyway, I hardly know where to start. It seems I have been down this path so many times the past couple of years, trying to help those who come here. I am in no way an expert and my stitch was somewhat different simply b/c of my age. I was told to stop referring to my age (lol) but it did seem unusual b/e there are so many that fall in the age bracket that you and your W are in. I suppose it goes to show that no matter how long a couple has been M or what age they are......anything can happen to threaten the happiness and security of a MR.

I was ignorant about the information on the false chemicals that rush to the brain in a person who is in MLC or a WAS (the two symptoms are so similar) and that they are craving those "in-love emotions" and once they get a taste of it, it is surely like a strong drug that is very addictive and the WAS/MLC will do almost anytbing to continue to get their "fix" for their drug of choice, which is an EA.......and could lead to a PA.

I try to think back to remember exactly the condition I was in at the time I was so deep in a "fog" that I could not function. My emotions were so eratic that they could change from hour to hour without any reason behind it. In short.....I was not the Sandi that everyone had known.....I did not even know myself any longer. I felt so confused and so lost.

As I read the posts from the WAH's on your other thread, I found it amazing, as always. I think the biggest problem for the LBH in the early stages of the WAW's symptoms is that he still expects her to act like her old self. He is still expecting her to think like she use to. It will not happen!! This is not your wife as you have known her. The sooner you realize that and begin to deal with the stitch in that manner, the better off you will be.

Then you have to realize that there is no "fixing her". You said you were a fixer by nature......well, most men are. A lot of women are fixers, also, b/c I am one of them and had to learn lots of hard lessons about trying to fix another human being......and that is you cannot fix somebody who doesn't "want" to be fixed...and especially by YOU!

You will be her main target for spewing her wrath and any other emotions built up within her. If you read Michelle's article on the WAW, then you are aware of the years this has been building and it did not just happen over night. You know that, don't you? You see, I find it amazing when I read the posts from some LBH's b/c they sound like they were such a great guy, and do not understand how on earth their W could even think of turning to another man to fill her emotional needs. Most of them will throw in the statement that they "weren't perfect....but" and then say it was no excuse for the W to have an EA. What would you constitute being a good excuse?

I am not pointing fingers at anyone, but I do find it a hard read to hear the statements that some LBH's make about WAW's. They call the WAW almost every name in the book without just coming out and spelling it. I try to put that down as anger and bitterness. WAW's are not the monsters that "some" people try to make them sound, but then not everyone is exactly alike. I found it astonishing that your W would open up and discuss her feelings for the OM so freely. But some W's do that with their H's. That makes me think that perhaps the two of you had a pretty good communication before the EA. Is that correct? If so, then that is why she is able to talk to you now.

A few WAW's have said they wanted their H's to fight for them, and I can understand that reason. However, others would only try to get farther away from the H. So, there is some differences and I don't think men can just lump them in one particul mold and say "this" is what every WAW looks like, sounds like, and acts like. It is true that there is what we call "script" when most of them say almost the same thing to their H's. There are similar symptoms that are shared, but still each case is individual b/c the woman herself is individual. We do not know your W, of course, and will have to rely on you to tell us about her. We need you to be as fair and open as you possibly can. Try to tell us about you and explain what you feel went wrong in the R. What do you feel that you did not supply that was an emotional need she had? Women do not turn to OM just for the heck of it. There has to be a reason that pushes them toward that point in their life. I know "some" women are natural flirts and have their eyes on the opposite sex when they have no business doing that. However, I don't recall reading any LBH's thread who said that about "his" WAW. Isn't that strange? So that makes me think that there has to be something that makes her turn to another man to supply her needs. Why wouldn't she turn to the man she is M to? What would stop her from doing that after sharing so many years with him and having children with him? What do you think?

In talking about the LRT on this thread, I did not remember you pointing that out on the other in Newcomers. Maybe I missed it. I do strongly suggest that you not pursue your W. You said something about not giving that up yet. In "most" cases, WAW's do not want the H to pursue. She feels that it is way too late for that. She even gets mad if she sees him trying b/c she "wanted" him to do all those things in the past and he wouldn't......now she resents him for doing it and it turns her off. The more you pursue, the farther away you drive her.

I have used this illustration before and hope you will bear with me as I do share it again on your thread. Women are life flowers. If given the proper care, they thrive and very beautiful. However, if neglected, they dry up and die. I don't know of a truer comparrison to a woman in a happy MR from one in an unhappy M. Females have a lot of emotional needs and they want those needs met by a man. When the man thinks he is being a great H b/c he is working so hard for his W and kids, the W is just wanting him home with her to pay some attention to her and spend quality time. He puts in long hours thinking he is doing a wonderful job, but he is really neglecting the flower and she will wither an die emotionally. When she feels like she is withering away on the inside.....she goes into a panic mode and that is when she gets into trouble. Sometimes, maybe she has not felt the suge of "panic" and she is trying hard to maintain her feelings toward her H, when along comes what appears to be a Knight in Shinning Armour. He knows all the right things to say to her to make her feel young and sexy and beautiful again. She feels more alive than she has in years! There is an excitement in her that she can't explain but she doesn't want it to ever leave. She looks at her R with her H and thinks she was emotionally dead and now she feels as if life is flowing in her veins and she even feels a certain sexual energy that surprises her. She is like a silly teenage girl again. I could go on, but you get the picture.

The opposite side of that coin is her other mood. The one that causes a lot of confusion and guilt. She knows what she is doing is not right, so she has to hide her R with OM. She may even lie to herself in the beginning.....telling herself that they are "just friends" and she needs somebody to talk to, etc. But she quickly feels herself drowning and being drawn into a deeper level. She tries to continue going through her daily responsibilities and keep her R with her family on even keel, but she finds out that she isn't able to be like she once was. She has to "cover up" the new feelings she is discovering and that gets difficult and it becomes frustrating and thereby causing her to act rather crazy at times. Remember, I am not condoning what she does......I'm just trying to quickly paint a picture of what we refer to the typical WAW.

Her feelings, mood, actions.....everything intensifies as the EA progresses. She may not even admit that it is an emotional affair. But at some point she must face facts. She will try to justify her reasons by blaming her negligent H and all the faults he has had since day one. Her mind becomes very "fogged" and it is hard to think normally. As she recalls events down through years, she begins to tell it differently than it actually happened. That is what is called "rewriting history". In her mind, that is how it happend......plus she is still trying to justify what she is doing in an EA.

The OM could be anybody. A long lost boyfriend, a coworker, a new neighbor, or a man over the Internet. He finds it to be quite the ego booster to receive female attention and many men play on the woman's emotions to get them into bed or just for the fun of it. There are some who are as mixed up as she is and will convince her that they have a future together. So, it varies about the OM.

She reaches a place that she feels pressured to make a decision about her R with her H and the OM. That is when things really start popping. The sad thing is that by the time the H figures out something is not quite right in his M any longer......she is well into the EA and so fogged out that she is lost. Some men have not figured out that anything was wrong and their W would have to just say the words and tell him that she was "in love" with OM. Of course she isn't, but she "believes" she is due to those false chemicals flooding her brain. It is such a "feel good" drug that she fantasizes about her life with OM and how everything will be so lovely. she is unrealistic in everything about OM and a future. Nobody can make her "see" the facts as they really are. In many, many cases it is the "fantasy" that has her hooked. The OM is nothing like she has him pictured in her fantasy. However, she does not see it and will not believe it until a lot of time has passed and eventually something transpires that helps to open her eyes just a little bit. As more time goes by, she will start to realize her Knight is not what she thought he was. It really help the stitch if he does something really bad to her.......like mess with another woman or something or dumps her. Although, as you said about your W, the OM told her not to contact him again.....and it just made her want him more.

That is part of the "point" right there. She wants what is not available to her. He is not somebody she should have and that makes her want him even more. That is why often times it takes the two being together for her to discover he isn't what he appeared or that she fantasized him to be.

The DB technique of "dropping the rope" is the best way (I think) for most H's to handle a W in an EA. You become uninsterested in her. You become detached emotionally from her. You become unavailable to her. When she begins to notice this....then you become "attractive" to her b/c she thinks she can't have you. That makes you more interesting and she has a desire to pursue you. Not every case works that way b/c it takes so long that a lot of H's gives up or mess up to the point of destroying any hope of a future. Some W's walk away from the M and go to the OM and then really screw their life up! The sad thing is that one day she wakes up to discover what a mess she has made of everything and then it is usually too late. Again, this doesn't happen in every case, but a lot. It is discouraging to say the least, but she according to your dates, she is still early in this EA and I may be crazy, but I think you should drop the rope and follow the principles the DR book gives. I think that would be your only chance in saving the M. She is not well emotionally. But you cannot make her go to a counselor or pastor or anybody she doesn't want to. She has to see for herself that she needs help. As long as she thinks the marriage breakdown is your fault and she is clinging to the hope of being with OM someday......it isn't good. I will continue along these lines at a latter time.

There is one other thing I want to touch on. This term of going "dark" is not being used properly. Call it my pet peeve but somebody started using it the wrong way and it was picked up by posters and spread all through this board. Going dark can only be applied properly when the two people are physically separated and they do not make contact with each other. The principle behind that is for the LBS to make many improvements so that after a certain amount of time has passed and the WAS just happens to run into them some place....the WAS will be attracted to the LBS by seeing the vast changes. By running into the LBS from time to time, the WAS begins to warm up to him/her and slowly the R gets back on track. What you are talking about is not going dark. How on earth can a man go dark when his wife is sleeping in the same bed? You can however, detach emotionally from her. Trying to act as if you are going dark only makes you appear to be moody. That causes the R to be more stessed b/c she does not understand and misreads your actions. So, pull back and detach yourself emotionally but do not act cold the way going dark would do when trying to live under the same roof. I wish people here would stop using that term!!

Anyway......I have to stop, but do read the part of DB about dropping the rope in the M and be sure you understand it b/c if not applied correctly, it won't work.

I'll talk to you later.

Sandi

[sandi2]

Well Big John.....did I blow you out of the pool?

[Thinker]

Hi BigJohn,

Just wanted to let you know you are not alone. I am in an almost identical sitch - just probably 5 months further along.

Sandi has really helped me a ton. I wish I could tell you a success story, but and maybe in a way it is. My W are still living together - same bed with no physical contact. We are still talking to one another, etc. and the many-times-per-day contact with the OM has dropped to an occasional attempt by my W to rekindle things.

On the other hand, the overall level of intimacy has dropped from some to none, and my W still wants to separate.

It has been long and hard, so I can give you a few pieces of advice.
- Take care of yourself. Do what it takes to really make you happy independent of your Wife, because for a while, that is what you will have to be.

- Be prepared for a long period in limbo with no end in site. Research the Stockdale paradox - if you get optimistic that you can fix this by (some future date), you will fail.

- Realize, admit, and accept your true situation. In my case, it was really admitting that the romantic love that I had with my W is dead and gone - I can't rekindle it by being romantic. I shouldn't look for signs that it is coming back, etc. I had to let it go.

- Detach - this is the hardest thing to understand and to do, but you'll know it when you get there. At some point you will stop caring what your W is doing and whether you are going to get back together. You won't take what she is doing personally. You will know that you are going to be OK and can move on. Only at this point can you really stop pursuing, and only at this point will the power balance in your relationship switch so that your W starts becoming interested again.

Listen to Sandi and Kittifish. They know what they are talking about and give good advice.

Good Luck. We are all here for you.