Hello Kittyfish & Sandi2!

[BigJohn]

Hi BigJohn,

Just wanted to let you know you are not alone. I am in an almost identical sitch - just probably 5 months further along.

Sandi has really helped me a ton. I wish I could tell you a success story, but and maybe in a way it is. My W are still living together - same bed with no physical contact. We are still talking to one another, etc. and the many-times-per-day contact with the OM has dropped to an occasional attempt by my W to rekindle things.

On the other hand, the overall level of intimacy has dropped from some to none, and my W still wants to separate.

It has been long and hard, so I can give you a few pieces of advice.
- Take care of yourself. Do what it takes to really make you happy independent of your Wife, because for a while, that is what you will have to be.

- Be prepared for a long period in limbo with no end in site. Research the Stockdale paradox - if you get optimistic that you can fix this by (some future date), you will fail.

- Realize, admit, and accept your true situation. In my case, it was really admitting that the romantic love that I had with my W is dead and gone - I can't rekindle it by being romantic. I shouldn't look for signs that it is coming back, etc. I had to let it go.

- Detach - this is the hardest thing to understand and to do, but you'll know it when you get there. At some point you will stop caring what your W is doing and whether you are going to get back together. You won't take what she is doing personally. You will know that you are going to be OK and can move on. Only at this point can you really stop pursuing, and only at this point will the power balance in your relationship switch so that your W starts becoming interested again.

Listen to Sandi and Kittifish. They know what they are talking about and give good advice.

Good Luck. We are all here for you.

Thinker,

Thank you for the encouraging words. I just read some of your posts and it is amazing how similar you and I are. I appreciate your dedication, but I have to admit it sure is discouraging thinking that I too may need to let go of any prospect that I may not regain my wife's feelings of romantic love for me (along with any other feelings), at least for a long time. I guess I should feel that as long as she is still here to demonstrate the lack of romantic love for me, it's better than the alternative- her not being with me at all. But then again, for me the question becomes is that really any way to live? And for how long do you put up with it before determining enough is enough?

I don't yet know what my real thresholds are with regards to not going without ANY affection, ANY sex, ANY (or very little)signs of respect from her or anything else a good husband can expect from his wife. I'm concerned not only about the potential damage to my self-respect but also the preservation of any feelings for my wife when her EA is either over or we separate/divorce, because at some point, she is going to need my compassion, one way or the other.

[BigJohn]

Well Big John.....did I blow you out of the pool?

No Sandi, not at all. Thanks for the feedback. I agree that detaching in my sitch is probably the best move to make, that and "dropping the rope". I will work on those two objectives.
For now, a little update:

Last Friday night, just my wife and D3 were home, so we went out to dinner. Almost immediately, W tries and succeeds in baiting me into an argument. Details aren't important, other than she demonstrated a real coldness towards my feelings. During the argument, she disclosed plans to travel out of state near the end of August to visit her parents with the kids for two weeks. She disclosed that she planned to go on "dates" with the OM while there. This led to objections from me, followed by the fact that we really can't afford her to take this vacation (which is true), to the fact that this whole affair is affecting my job performance (if I lose my job we will be screwed big time), that our savings continues to dwindle while she remains underemployed, etc. She just acted like she doesn't give a damn about any of it- it is collectively "my problem".

Later into the R talk, which dealt with the financial implications of divorce along with the impact it will have on the kids, she told me "Don't you get it? I've told you ten times before that it's over, our marriage is over for good, you just can't seem to accept it." She reiterated her anger with me over contact I had initially with her parents about a month and a half ago regarding our problems- I know, not good, but at the time I did not have a handle on my emotions and was truly looking for emotional support- and accused me of "kissing a**". She also told me that her mother- who was originally very supportive and upset over my W's EA- has now come around to my W's view that the EA is "not really an affair", that I'm unfairly characterizing the EA as an affair (a real affair is a PA) and am basically acting like a jerk for suggesting it. (BTW, I have not had any further contact with my MIL since.) Further, her mother now supports her coming home for a vacation and doesn't think that it's going to be a problem even though OM lives 10 minutes from my in-laws house. Unbelieveable.

Add to this other evidence that several members of my wife's family (some of whom I have not spoken to since the EA began) seem to now be joining my wife in derisively speaking about my feelings and sincerity behind my back really is getting me discouraged. (BTW, I should mention that there are 7 kids in my wife's family, 5 of whom have been married already and 3 of those who have been divorced. My wife will/may be the 4th child to divorce.) So to use Dr. Harley's terminology, the "friends of our marriage" may be starting to dwindle right now, including people on my side of the family.

Adding to all of this is the fact that my two sons, particularly my younger son, are really starting to get negatively impacted by the dynamics of the sitch. Most recently, while I was out of the house, my son hit my wife, told her he was angry with her for "cheating on Daddy" and "wanting to break up the family". My son further told my wife that he wanted to kill her with a knife while she slept to which my W responded by cracking him in the face with a towel. (My wife is normally a passive person- this was out of character for her. Apparently my son had overheard an earlier argument between my W and I). So I am really getting concerned for my sons and will be taking them with me to counseling this week.

At the end of the above R conversation, my W told me that she had determined that she could not bear going without contact with the OM for more than two weeks without constantly pining for him, viewing him as "perfect" and wanting him more than anything else in the world. She further stated that she had discovered that by having brief daily contact with the OM, she could "regulate" her feelings for him and see some of his flaws. No, she doesn't see this as a problem, or indicative of an addictive habit/behavior- despite the fact that she is an RN by profession. And no, she refuses to stop all contact with the OM.

Several members of my family are concerned about the impact my sitch is having on my job and more importantly on my kids. They were originally somewhat supportive of my DBing, however given the above feel that it is becoming more unrealistic. They are encouraging me to go on the offensive and gain control of the sitch before things get further out of hand and no, I'm not talking about just establishing some concrete boundaries with my wife. Looking for some feedback regarding the above. Sandi your thoughts?

[sandi2]

Hi Big John,

It concerns me that you are seeing the technique of "detaching" as an option to choose whereas it really is the only thing to do if you are going to survive your W's A, or if this R stands a chance. I don't think you get it.... really, that you can not fix her. I believe that is the first step Big John has to make in this stitch! Back off and leave her alone and stop interfering. Yes, that is exactly what I said b/c you see......that is how your W sees you in her life. She sees you trying to control her and interfer with "her" life. The WAS becomes very self-centered and therefore the LBS must become self-centered to a degree or he/she will not survive this crises.

I do not understand why so many people know about her A. Who told the kids, relatives, and friends? The more people who are informed and are offering their suggestions to your W, the worse it will make the stitch. If she is openly flaunting the A, then the kids and family have a right to know, but if it is an EA and has a chance of disolving before going to the next level, .......well no point in going there b/c they "do" know already so need to deal with facts here.

(My wife is normally a passive person- this was out of character for her.

This is the other fact of life you must accept. She is not the same person as you have known all these years! She will not think, feel, or react the way she normally would. If you continue to think of her as being her normal self, you only sit yourself up for a bad situation. You have to stop it! You have to think of her as a stranger b/c you don't know how she is feeling and you sure don't know what to expect from her.

It is obvious by what she said to you that you are applying pressure b/c you are still pursuing (trying to fix) her and she is resisting it......and the more you press her....the farther she will run from you. Don't you see that? Listen, I saw a lot of posts from LBS on your other thread, and that is good, but you need to listen to us WAW's if you want to know how she feels in her gut right now. "This" almost WAW is telling you that if you do not drop the rope and leave her alone.....you've lost her for good.

I have the most loving man in the world, but when I was in an EA....."I" was not the only person who changed. I saw my H become somebody I never had seen before. I did not like him at all. He pursued and pressured and shamed me until I was ready to leave for that reason only......even if there had not been OM. When he finally stopped and left me alone, then I was able to do what I needed to do about the EA.

One other thing......about your son hitting your W. Do not stand for that. I don't care if she has slept with half the town! He has no right to hit his mother. She is still his mother regardless of what she has done. If he doesn't want to be around her and stays away, that's different, but he has no authority over her and you should not allow him to hit her. What if it had been some other man who hit her, would you have let that go? (Maybe you didn't and I missed it.) I'm just saying that LBH's can allow their pride and their anger to play out in ways that harm the M. People have different opinions about "exposing" the A.....and obviously in this case, it is too late about that. So, that will be another problem to add to the stitch and even if you and W work things out and reconcile, where does that leave her with her children? When the relatives and friends get together, how will the two of you feel? Won't it be uncomfortable wonder if other people's minds are on the A and "judging" her? If it were me in her position, I would want to run away from you, the kids and everyone that knows my intimate life. (Now that is how a WAW feels.) Not only does more people knowing about the A put pressure on her, but everything they say or "act" in some way to her to let her know their opinion of her.......the less chance your M can survive this stitch. You may not see her as "worthy" of protection b/c she got herself into this mess, but if you do not put an end to the way the son is treating her (and everyone else who is showing bad treatment) then you can wave good-bye to her. In a weird way, she still thinks you should protect her from those friends and family who would mistreat her. You detaching from her does not stop your responsibility as her H in taking care of basic things, like providing food, shelter, clothes, medicine, protection, etc. The "detaching" is the emotional and intimate R. You never appear to be angry, sulled, cold, etc. You maintain a positive outlook about your life. Don't act giddy or stupid trying to be upbeat......just be the opposite of what you probably feel right now.

I think what your son said to his mother is just awful! I hope you will stop that from happening again with him or anybody else that would treat her in that manner. Regardless of how you feel toward her at this moment, it is digging the M grave deeper by you not stepping up to protect her. This is not the same as "fixing" the R between you and her. This is completely different in the way "she" sees it. If you were there when it happen, and "if" you did nothing when the son treated her like that........then she lost a great deal of respect for you. I know, I know.......I know all the arguments about respect toward her, etc. But, I'm trying to tell you the POV from the WAW and if you want this M saved, then you have to listen to that POV.

I'll talk to you later.

Sandi

[sandi2]

I wanted to add another thought. I think if it were me in your place, I would stay away from having public family outings like the meal you tried to have with your W and child. B/c of the condition she is in, she apparently feels this urge to bait you into an argument. There could be several reasons behind that, but my first thought is to give her more justification in leaving you. She'll say you are so hard and unreasonable to live with! So, in detaching from her, become less available to her as well. (Being around her less.....is good.) That means avoid these types of outings.

When she starts a talk about OM, tell her you are not going to discuss it. Don't argue with her. If she says, "Why aren't you going to talk about it?"........just walk away. She knows why you are not discussing it! I promise you that no good will come out of a conversation about her and OM! Leave it alone.

Arguments about everything will be easy to fall into at this time. Expenses, the kids, what people say about her, etc. Everyone's feelings are "raw" and it is like sitting on a case of explosives. The more you are out of her sight, the better. When you are home, it would be best to do things with the children. Keep them involved in something with you. The more they are in their rooms alone and on the computer or cells or tech toys, the more withdrawn they will be toward both of you b/c they don't know how to deal. They need to see their dad strong and dealing with this stitch. Along with your R with them may come need for discipline of them and that goes back to how they treat their mother.

If things get uncomfortable at home, take them out for a treat or walk around the mall or bowling.......whatever they like to do. The age your older ones are, it is vitally important to spend one on one time with them.

Got to go,
Sandi

[BigJohn]

Hi Big John,

It concerns me that you are seeing the technique of "detaching" as an option to choose whereas it really is the only thing to do if you are going to survive your W's A, or if this R stands a chance. I don't think you get it.... really, that you can not fix her. I believe that is the first step Big John has to make in this stitch! Back off and leave her alone and stop interfering.

Sandi, I misspoke in my prior post, I agree that detaching is not an option, it is mandatory in my case. I'm starting to get a handle on my emotions but I'm finding it is almost equally challenging to fight my natural instinct to "fix" her and everything else. I am normally very aggressive at addressing problems in life when they come up- I don't let things snowball. I am trying hard although it is tough to fight the urge when I'm already carrying everything else on my shoulders right now for the family.

[Thinker]

I'm concerned not only about the potential damage to my self-respect but also the preservation of any feelings for my wife when her EA is either over or we separate/divorce, because at some point, she is going to need my compassion, one way or the other.

Hi BigJohn,

Sorry, I am feeling pretty direct and to the point this morning, so this is going to come across as a bit of a 2x4.
------

Detach

Detach

Detach

You are not your Marriage! You do not need your wife for her affection or affirmation or love or for your own self esteem.

Love Yourself. Take care of yourself. Respect Yourself.

If you don't, then there is not anything you can do for your family or your W.

I know, I was there, and in many ways still am.

Believe me.

To your W, the romantic relationship is dead. You need to accept and believe that it is. There may in the future be a chance to rebuild a new R with your W, but don't focus on that.

What do you need to be happy. If your first answer is "A R with my W" or "A R with a woman" then stop and rethink that. You can't have the R you want until you are happy without it.

You can't control you W. If she wants to proceed with the A, she will. Nothing you can do can stop it. The only person who can stop it is your W, and she has to make that decision all on her own.

Note that this does not mean letting her walk all over you. Set your boundaries. Don't just allow her to spend family $ to pursue the W. Don't let her drag the kids into the mess.

Once you have 1) made sure your wife knows you don't support her EA and 2) set the boundaries you need to be able to respect yourself, then focus on yourself.

What do you need to be happy? What are you not focusing on because you are obsessed with her EA? What have you been not doing for yourself for the past years? What don't you like about yourself? What do you need in order to be independent from your W? What are your biggest fears and limitations? Are you the best dad you could be? Did you do things wrong in this R that you want to make sure you don't do in the next one (with your W or otherwise...)

Take a good look, then get to work - on yourself.

It's painful! It's Hard! I know.

You can do it.

[BigJohn]

Hi Big John,


I do not understand why so many people know about her A. Who told the kids, relatives, and friends? The more people who are informed and are offering their suggestions to your W, the worse it will make the stitch. If she is openly flaunting the A, then the kids and family have a right to know, but if it is an EA and has a chance of disolving before going to the next level, .......well no point in going there b/c they "do" know already so need to deal with facts here.

Sandi,

I don't recall the sequence of events but after discovery of the EA, I believe I first confided in her younger brother for emotional support, then she in turn confided in a couple of her sisters, her mom and dad. Then she opened up to about 3-4 of her friends. Also, during the beginning of the EA, she was not secretive about openly flirty exchanges with OM on Facebook. Since the disclosure, I have overheard her talking to her sisters/mom wistfully about how good the OM makes her feel, so she is being open with them about her feelings but not publicly flaunting it.

After D3 blurted out "daddy (OM name)" twice while in the car alone with me a few weeks ago, I got very emotional and confronted my wife about it. During the confrontation, I had made comments that my younger son apparently overheard while in an adjacent room.

Regarding my contact with my son after the assault- I was not home at the time when it happened- I comforted him (he was crying uncontrollably)but made it clear to him that he could not treat his mother that way- ever. My wife saw this exchange but I did not see or hear her reaction to it.

[BigJohn]

Hi Big John,

I know, I know.......I know all the arguments about respect toward her, etc. But, I'm trying to tell you the POV from the WAW and if you want this M saved, then you have to listen to that POV.

Sandi, I absolutely agree that I'm going to have to rely upon your POV the most along with the other "almost" or former WAWs if I'm going to pull my W and I out of this sitch. I am grateful for your counsel. I forgot to add to my previous post above how I handled Fathers Day, which was the wrong way. I took my kids to a BBQ with my sister and her family and left my W home. I reacted that way after my W had made hurtful and disrespectful comments to me on Friday about hating to be around me and not caring for me, etc and wanting a vacation from me. I told her on Father's Day that I preferred to be around people who care about and love me- our family- and that she could sit home and spend time on her new relationship over the phone since she has apparently chosen him over me and the kids. I know, I let my emotions get the better of me. When I got home, she told me that she had actually wanted to go to the BBQ as it was a nice day out. A girlfriend had come over to visit, she spoke on the phone with her dad and yes, also called OM.

Two questions for you: 1) Given what has transpired recently, should I take my two sons to my counselor with me this week? How might my wife react to this? Would it be seen by her as provocative in some way? I am concerned about my boys right now and feel that this would be the right thing to do.

2) Setting some clear boundaries with my wife. Her declaration that she is going to take the kids with her out of state in August to see her family AND go on discrete dates with OM without the kids knowledge I feel is unacceptable. I'm getting mixed signals from her. Yes, she may be baiting me, but I'm also sensing from her an alternating sense that either 1) I'm not going to do anything about it or 2) I'm going to blow a gasket somehow and try to stop her. (And yes, I do know how to legally stop her from taking the kids in that eventuality... but it is not what I want.)

At times, it really seems to be a lot about her rebelling against me. So I'd like some ideas on how to thread this needle- defining concrete boundaries regarding her behavior while not coming off as "controling" while at the same time not feeding off her desire to rebel. I know, it sure seems like a tall order, but any ideas would be greatly appreciated.

Thank you again Sandi for your time and insight.

[BigJohn]

I'm concerned not only about the potential damage to my self-respect but also the preservation of any feelings for my wife when her EA is either over or we separate/divorce, because at some point, she is going to need my compassion, one way or the other.

Hi BigJohn,

Sorry, I am feeling pretty direct and to the point this morning, so this is going to come across as a bit of a 2x4.
------

Detach

Detach

Detach

You are not your Marriage! You do not need your wife for her affection or affirmation or love or for your own self esteem.

Love Yourself. Take care of yourself. Respect Yourself.

If you don't, then there is not anything you can do for your family or your W.

I know, I was there, and in many ways still am.

Believe me.

To your W, the romantic relationship is dead. You need to accept and believe that it is. There may in the future be a chance to rebuild a new R with your W, but don't focus on that.

What do you need to be happy. If your first answer is "A R with my W" or "A R with a woman" then stop and rethink that. You can't have the R you want until you are happy without it.

You can't control you W. If she wants to proceed with the A, she will. Nothing you can do can stop it. The only person who can stop it is your W, and she has to make that decision all on her own.

Note that this does not mean letting her walk all over you. Set your boundaries. Don't just allow her to spend family $ to pursue the W. Don't let her drag the kids into the mess.

Once you have 1) made sure your wife knows you don't support her EA and 2) set the boundaries you need to be able to respect yourself, then focus on yourself.

What do you need to be happy? What are you not focusing on because you are obsessed with her EA? What have you been not doing for yourself for the past years? What don't you like about yourself? What do you need in order to be independent from your W? What are your biggest fears and limitations? Are you the best dad you could be? Did you do things wrong in this R that you want to make sure you don't do in the next one (with your W or otherwise...)

Take a good look, then get to work - on yourself.

It's painful! It's Hard! I know.

You can do it.

Thanks Thinker for the words of wisdom. You are right, and yes, I have given a lot of thought to what you mention in your post about wanting to take the steps I need to in order to be the man I want to come out as on the other side. Unfortunately, some of those steps take time and money, both of which are in short supply right now. But I can focus on my kids, which I am doing right now. And they and I are having as much fun as we can despite the current circumstances- which at times I think is somewhat irritating to my wife if I read her right. She is also pissed off about my improving relations with members of her family, including my BIL. Don't know why exactly that is, but she definitely doesn't like it.

[Thinker]

...they (the kids) and I are having as much fun as we can despite the current circumstances- which at times I think is somewhat irritating to my wife if I read her right. She is also pissed off about my improving relations with members of her family, including my BIL. Don't know why exactly that is, but she definitely doesn't like it.

Got it. Been there.

You are messing with your W's view on reality (the kids would be better off, my family doesn't like him anyway, etc).

My W also stays away from any times I am having fun with my S's and get's really annoyed if I get complimented by or have fun with any members of her family.