Hello Kittyfish & Sandi2!

[sandi2]

Dear Big John,

Thanks for explaining about your son and how that all happened. It helps a lot.

Regarding Father's Day, I can't really blame you for feeling the way you did or for even taking the actions you did. However, it did not benefit anyone except the OM. That is what you need to try to remember the next time you are tempted to dish back what she's been throwing at you.

It gets very complicated in these R's b/c if you disrespect her, then she will act even worse. You are correct, she is rebelling and she will beoome more like a kid the more you try to hand it back. In some ways, but hard to explain, you have to think of her in these terms. Try to see the outcome and who is going to benefit in the end (like on Father's Day).

I realize you said what you did out of anger and I am sure I would have felt just like you did, but anytime you tell her why doesn't she talk to the OM or go see him........THAT IS EXACTLY WHAT SHE WILL DO! That is her way of "showing you" and getting back at you for saying that. Although, I'm certain she would have talked to OM on Father's Day at any rate b/c she had the opportunity.

It makes me sick to think of this woman talking so openly about her EA. The fact that her children know is terrible. I mean, it's bad enough but for the kids' sake.......I really hate they found out. It has nothing to do with "exposing" the A. It has everything to do with the age of your children and the fact that they can't handle what she is doing. I would have flipped if I had been you and heard the three-year old refer to OM and "daddy"! That is carrying it way too far and you can bet that baby has been "taught" to say that. Babies do not know to call a stranger "Daddy OM". So, your wife probably taught the child that b/c she thought it was cute and wanted OM to hear. Makes me sick!!

I don't know that this would work at all b/c it is very, very difficult to get anywhere in conversation with WAW's and even if she agreed, how long would she stick with it? Therefore, if I were you, one of my boundaries would certainly be that the OM not be discussed to or in front of your three-year old child... nor that the child be coaxed into calling him by name. You need to decide what the consequenses will be if she breaks that boundary and make it severe enough that she won't take those chances.

You need to think about the other children and their welfare. The oldest is having problems already, and I think you are wise to be concerned. I think I would discuss it with your C before just taking them in with you. The C may want to see one at a time or whatever. Also, ask the C how you should approach the kids about going.....if the C thinks he/she should see your sons. Your W probably won't like it b/c she doesn't "see" the damage she's doing, but it doesn't matter....you have to take care of them. It seems that sobmebody who is not emotionally involved (like you are) should give them some guidance. They obviously know something very wrong is going on.

Your W must be in a SERIOUS fog to be that messed up!! Even when I was at my worst, I never wanted anybody to know, and if my children had been little, I don't think I would have wanted to them to find out about my EA. I mean, this woman is still in the early fantasy stages and it hasn't become a PA (and hopefully it won't). I know she "thinks" it will become a PA and that they are going to live happily ever after, but she is in for a rude awakening. If I were you and had to resort to legal help, then whatever it took to protect the children......I'd do it.

Anyway, back to the boundaries......I think in many ways the WAW has to be treated like a rebelious teen. In order to keep them from completely destroying everyone they touch, and to maintain your own self-respect, you have to have limitations to what you will put up with. Don't tell her what you will put up with, but do tell her what you Will NOT allow. But also understand that you cannot control her actions. That is the difference and why it is difficult to explain between boundaries and controling. If she chooses to do something that you won't sit back and allow without any action.....then she must suffer the consequenses of her actions. The key word being "suffer"......again just as with teenagers. What they suffer must hurt more than the pleasure they would have received from doing whatever it was they chose to do. For example, if you told her that you never wanted her to talk to OM in front of the children......and then you found out that she had.......what could you do that would make her never want to take that chance again? Of course, I am not suggesting any physical abuse to her......I'm sure you realize that! You also must know that you can't just say..."No more contact with OM", b/c she will find a way to make contact, but it doesn't have to be talking over the phone in front of your sons! You need to break it down and be specific. She needs to know where you stand on certain issues. Be reasonable.....if that makes sense. It is not reasonable for her to think she can have an EA, but I mean where your children are concerned and also about showing you respect in front of them. If I were in your place, I would certainly want my W to show respect toward me in front of my sons. They will learn how to have R's with women by watching their parents. If you lay down the boundaries and tell her that if she does XYZ that you will be forced to do 123....then she may think that 123 is not worth doing XYZ, and it will keep her within the boundaries. See what I mean?

Her declaration that she is going to take the kids with her out of state in August to see her family AND go on discrete dates with OM without the kids knowledge I feel is unacceptable.

Yes, it is unacceptable. Her talking about OM is unacceptable. You will have to make the decision to either keep them from visiting the family or trust those family members not to allow the children to be exposed to the OM. Only you can determine if you think that her family could be trusted to do that. If it is her parents and they know about OM, then you may want to consider discussing the situation of the children visiting them and unless you can have their cooperation, then the kids won't be going. The problem there is her finding out about your intent of legal help and then she stoops to doing other drastic measures, so you have to be careful. It is all so sticky. Even if the grandparents assured you that the kids would not be around OM, she apparently wants them to know him.....so I think she would sneak them out if necessary. I am kind of blowing in the wind here b/c I frankly don't know what to advise. She will resist anything you try to say or do, so you have to bear that in mind, whatever you decide. Remember, whatever you say to her, be prepared to back it up.......that is why you don't need to allow her to bait you into a fight. When tempers flare, that is when threats are made.

I've made another longer post than I meant to! Anyway, do think carefully about the boundaries and what her consequenses would be if they were broken. Don't threaten her b/c she will rebell to "show" you what she'll do. Do put the walfare of your children before anything else.

Don't know that I've been much help, but I'll be around if you need to talk. It is a very hard road, but I am proof that things can turn around and be normal again. It is important that she show you respect, even if she doesn't like you! So, don't give up and keep improving on yourself. Don't pursure her b/c almost everything you say and do will be preceived as pursuing! The more time you take for you and the kids, the better. Keep pulling back from her in order to detach emotionally.

Take care,
Sandi

[BigJohn]

Dear Big John,

It makes me sick to think of this woman talking so openly about her EA. The fact that her children know is terrible. I mean, it's bad enough but for the kids' sake.......I really hate they found out. It has nothing to do with "exposing" the A. It has everything to do with the age of your children and the fact that they can't handle what she is doing. I would have flipped if I had been you and heard the three-year old refer to OM and "daddy"! That is carrying it way too far and you can bet that baby has been "taught" to say that. Babies do not know to call a stranger "Daddy OM". So, your wife probably taught the child that b/c she thought it was cute and wanted OM to hear. Makes me sick!!

Sandi,

Thanks for another great post. Yes, I did flip out and was very upset re: D3's comment. When confronted my wife adamantly denied any responsibility for what my daughter said and in fact suggested that my daughter had confused OM name with the name of a classmate of her's whose name sounds the same as OM (only difference is the first letter of the names). I think that is a little too coincidental. Also, back in March, my W had disclosed to my BIL a "beautiful dream" the OM had experienced and told W about in which OM and my W had successfully taken my kids away from me out of state, were living together and he was being a father to my daughter and my sons. Sick stuff. Oh and BTW, when I confronted my wife over D3's comments, she got this "numb" look on her face. Don't know what that means, but I've seen that reaction a couple times now and wondered if it's my wife realizing she's tearing her marriage and family apart herself piece by piece... but can't help herself.

BTW, my wife has NOT disclosed OM to my sons and has put in a lot of effort to keep the EA a secret from them.

I do trust my in-laws to keep the kids away from OM if my W tried to introduce them to him (OM). I suspect that she would n't be so brazen at this juncture, especially with the boys, but then again who knows. My W has already told me that when she becomes single she would never introduce the kids to a new boyfriend until she had a well established relationship (I know, she already thinks she has that with OM!)

Sandi, my W is out of her friggin mind about this OM. She has said before "I love him more than anything else in this world". It's frightening how completely addicted/co-dependent she is to him, it's like he is Jesus to her. I really don't know exactly how she is going to "deal" with the EA by herself and get resolution on her own- she has already said she doesn't want the EA to stop. I just don't think she is strong enough by herself. As I may have mentioned before, my wife is normally passive by nature and leans towards being introverted and co-dependent. I don't know how those qualities could possibly work in my favor in this sitch.

My W has really turned into a mean spirited person since discovery of the EA- even her family members are noticing how remarkably mean and insensitive she is being towards me. Quite a contrast to the woman we all knew before the EA. No gift or card for my B-day in April, no card or Happy Father's Day along with all the other crap.

I understand that my wife has "changed" due to the EA, but is the woman I fell in love with "dead" or is this just a temporary double life persona that has presently taken over my wife? Will she ever come back to being relatively "normal" again? If not, what new behaviors are likely to "stick"? What original behaviors attitudes will survive? From what you can recall, what was your experience like Sandi?

[sandi2]

From what you can recall, what was your experience like Sandi?

My experience seem unusual compared to most people here on the board simply b/c of the lateness in life (I guess is the best way to describe it). I had never had a problem with "age" the way some women do. But a lot of things had built up in me and I was very unhappy and lonely due to my R with my H. I felt emotionally dead inside. I had been on a lot of different medications and I believe everything combined with some other family issues was more than I could handle at the time. I was very depressed, to boot. That may sound like an excuse for my actions, but I do not give an "excuse", only trying to give a very brief background of my stitch. I was one of those women who would have been the last person on earth that you would have ever suspected of getting involved with OM over the Internet. I came from a strong Christian background and was instilled with good the moral ethics. I had been raised "right" (if you will excuse that expression). It is a long story so I won't go into the details. I never, ever thought I would stoop to doing what I did. Once I got off into that "world", then it was if I was lost and couldn't find my way back. Like your W, I didn't "want" the feelings I was experiencing to stop. I did not have the information to realize that it was a chemical that actually hits the brain and give the false illusion of "in-love" emotions. It felt like I was a young woman again and I was experiencing sexual excitment that I had not had for a long time. I was looking at a birthday coming up that just hit me smack in the face and realized I would be considered "old" and I was losing my looks and sex appeal. I wasn't the "type" of gal that went around looking for men to be attracted to me or anything like that, but I believe a lot of that is just human nature to want to be attractive to the opposite sex. Anyway, (don't know how I got on that but...) this OM was chatting with me and of course it turned sexual and he was feeding my ego like crazy. Being primed as I was.....I was hooked. When my H discovered my messages to OM over the Internet.....then he approached me with his findings and of course I could say nothing. He told me to delete OM from my emails and to end it. I did as I was told and my H thought that was that. However, the OM was able to tell when I went on line and he contacted me and then everything got even more secretive after that. I would contact him through a secret account and be sure I deleted any traces of the computer history. I got a pay-as-you-go cell phone to call him. When a WAW wants to contact OM, she will find a way. The more the H says to her, the more secretive she gets. A WAW finds a way, and that is why the H cannot do anything about her actions. He cannot control her and he cannot fix her. She will fight him every step of the way.

I was on a rollercoaster of emotions and it took a good while before I came here and found this board and begin to get the tools of information I needed to help myself. I felt so desparate when I found the DB board. Your wife had not felt that yet. Even with help from the books and this boad, it still took a long time for me to get through the process of giving up the OM and then going through the "grieving" and withdrawals. It really is like a drug that you have to put down and have the discipline to leave it alone. Knowing he is as close as the click of your computer. Very tempting unti you can get past that stage of the wthdrawal.

I was like a different person. My H could not believe it. We had always trusted each other with our lives. I broke that trust. I showed not interest in him. I did not cook for him, or wash his clotes or anything. I never went anywhere with him b/c I wanted free time on the comuter to contact OM. I never told my H a lie accept for withholding what I was doing by contacting OM. I did not discuss my feeling or anything else about OM. I couldn't. It felt wrong to do that. Your W and I are very different in that respect. The best thing that I had going for me was the fact that I had had my children when I was very young and therefore they were grown when I had my EA. I don't know what I would have done or been like if I had had small children. I remember having fantasies, but I never acted on anyting.......not like contacting a real perosn.I remembered the first time I called and I was so nervous and in the back of my mind I knew I was taking the biggest risk of my M.....but I did it anyway....that is what's so sick.

It was a very bad time that I never want to have repeated. I have to say that, in all fairness, I can look back and see where it was either my hormones going crazy or else it was that combined with those chemicals flooding my brain cells when the OM was feeding my ego.......that affected my behavor. But like I said, I don't "excuse" my actions.......but at times I still wonder about how that all happened. I just got into a mess that I had no business getting into.

Your W is not the woman you married! Someday, hopefully, she will return, but there are no promises. She could make some very poor decisions while in this condition that will effect her life and her family's. That is what is so scary! She is very unpredictable and you cannot take stock in ANYTHING she says. Don't believe her! Remind yourself everyday that she is not the woman you use to know.

I think the thing that seems so weird with your W is how she openly talks about her fantasy with this OM with you and her BIL and friends. It amazes me that she is not embarrassed by having this attraction when she is a M woman. She acts as if it is nothing to be ashamed of. Why do you think that is? Has she been like that regarding other things in life?

I thought your son had over-heard some dicussion about OM is why he was upset. I must have misunderstood. Anyway, if they know something is going on, and they probably do b/c kids are so darn smart! I sure would consider talking to your C about what to do where they are concerned. It will probably affect the rest of their lives.

My W has already told me that when she becomes single she would never introduce the kids to a new boyfriend until she had a well established relationship (I know, she already thinks she has that with OM!)

She's lying. Don't believe a word of it. She will introduce them some way--some how to the OM. They may not know he is OM at the time, but she will do it. There was a young lady here on the board who had what appeared to be a very close R with her H. However, even when he left her for OW, he promised her faithfully he would never let OW around the children. But he took them to the movies one night and guess who just happen to be at the same place? You see, Your W sees this OM as her future H and so she is eager to get everything into place.....including the children. She needs to know that OM and her children accept each other. That is part of the fantasy....to become one big happy family. And you? Oh, she thinks to "scr*w you" b/c you aren't important to her now. You are interferring with her plans.

It is all about her fantasy. ON may reach a place that he is no longer interested in her. If he would really treat her badly "before" it turns into a PA.....that would be the best thing to happen. However.....and this is the kicker.......it is her "condition" that makes her very vulnerable to any OM. That hurts, doesn't it? I think that it was not so much my OM, but that it could have been almost any OM that came into my life at that moment in time. I was in a bad place emotionally and he filled the void. I could have found another man if he didn't want me, but thankfully, I did not go down that road. I'm not so sure about your W, b/c it is an individual thing and how she is affected by hormones and the whole bit. It's so hard to explain. Just like me trying to think back about my own stitch and still wonder how it all happened and try to tell another person about it.

As I may have mentioned before, my wife is normally passive by nature and leans towards being introverted and co-dependent.

That is not good. It means she will more than likely take an emotional beating from this OM before she wakes up to reality. I wish I could offer up more encouragement.

My W has really turned into a mean spirited person since discovery of the EA- even her family members are noticing how remarkably mean and insensitive she is being towards me. Quite a contrast to the woman we all knew before the EA. No gift or card for my B-day in April, no card or Happy Father's Day along with all the other crap.

Big John....I want you to get this point if you get nothing else, okay? She can't stand you! There, I said it, and I'm sorry but that is how she really feels toward you while she is in this WAW mode. You are the least person on earth that she would probably try to save if drowning. Well, that may be extreme, but I want you to get the picture here. Stop thinking of her in terms of her being the person you M b/c she isn't there in her mind right now. She sees herself as already divorced from you. She may never be "normal"
again! Like I said, there are no promises. Do the best you can for you and the kids and if you believe in God, I sugest you pray real hard. I'm not trying to be "cute" or funny. I am dead serious.

I

understand that my wife has "changed" due to the EA, but is the woman I fell in love with "dead" or is this just a temporary double life persona that has presently taken over my wife? Will she ever come back to being relatively "normal" again? If not, what new behaviors are likely to "stick"? What original behaviors attitudes will survive?

I wish I could answer that for you. The problem is that it depends largly on the individual person. By your description of her, it does not sound good, but I have seen a few miracles in my life, so who knows. I can only say that I was not myself at all during the ordeal I went through, and I do think that I am back to who I use to be. It was a long, hard road to get back and I had to do "work" b/c it didn't just fall into place. I had to "want" to be my old self again and have my life back. If your W doesn't "see" what is happening and have that desire to get herself well from this state of mind she's in.....then you or nobody else can help her. She will not listen to you. If there is anybody that she admires and respects very highly.....she may at least listen to what they have to say, but I'm afraid that she is so far gone in her fantasy of this OM and what she thinks he is and what their future will be......it really concerns me that she is over the top......she has lost touch with reality. There is something that I don't know how to explain where she is concerned. I'm wondering if there is something more here than an EA with OM. I'm wondering if she needs professional help in why this all happened. Am I making sense? It sounds so......I don't know.....freaky. Any WAW sounds "sick" but this is beyond that.....IMHO. Of course, she would resist any means of professional help b/c as she said, she doesn't want this feeling that the EA has produced to ever stop. It is the "feeling", you know.....not the OM. A big concern is to what extent this OM is pursuing her. Is he just getting his kicks out of this and thinks it will get him into her panties or is he seriously leading her to believe he will M her. My OM knew all the right words to lead me on and even told me he would come get me and take care of me.......but he never said anything about possibly getting M. He would refer to a future together, etc., but he was careful as to what words he use. He was very smart! Does she tell what the OM says to her? Or is it all how she feels, etc.?

Well, I've made another very long post. So, I'll close for now. Hope you can get rest tonight. You don't know how badly I could help you. I think it may have been your other thread in Newcomers where I was one of the board's vets say that there is nothing a man can do about his WAW.....he just has to be as confident as he can be b/c that is what is most attractive. I think there is a lot of truth in that. In fact, guess what attracted me to my OM? Yep!

Well, good night. Hope have a peaceful night.

Sandi

[BigJohn]

From what you can recall, what was your experience like Sandi?

It felt like I was a young woman again and I was experiencing sexual excitment that I had not had for a long time. I was looking at a birthday coming up that just hit me smack in the face and realized I would be considered "old" and I was losing my looks and sex appeal.

Sandi,

My W has told me that during what she has described as the "height" of the EA in all of March (where she was only sleeping 3-4 hrs. everyday and texting/calling the OM 20+ hrs. non stop) that she felt this way and how incredible it was. She has stated that she no longer feels this level of intensity for OM.... yet she admits to a strong desire for it to all work out despite the fact that "a number of things would have to happen in order for it to work out" (perhaps her attempt to demonstrate she is in touch with "reality"?)

I may have mentioned before that my W has told me that the EA with OM has opened her eyes to how happy she could be with the "right" person- and that is not me. I just don't make her feel loved, admired/respected, beautiful, etc. She has repeatedly told me and others that people can't change, and that she feels bad that I want to change now and that she does not care. She has indicated that I am definitely not want she wants. She has also explained to the OM that she wants him and he can have her but that if he can't/won't make the sacrifices needed, she will still divorce me, move on and find someone else just like him to fulfill her needs. She has told OM and I that she would rather live ALONE that live with me as the EA has brought into sharp contrast for her feelings/impressions that I "look down on her" and "always have." He puts her on a pedestal (big time!) and I do not.

As I have previously described the OM, he is deep down a pathetic individual who is slick with the women- an extrovert living a very active single life- but who has never had a successful long term relationship. My W is beautiful and successful- someone he does not deserve and could not get before the EA. My wife has compared him to the "Beast" as in the movie "Beauty and the Beast" while I remind her of the "Gaston" character. (I know, this is the maturity level I am dealing with. and yes, I know that it all smacks of my W having a very low self esteem.) So I believe that this OM is desperate and just might try his best to "save" my W from a perceived horrible marriage. I believe that she is DEFINATLEY encouraging this type of though process with him- so I'm starting to wonder who is using who- both of them I guess for their own selfish reasons.

[BigJohn]

I was like a different person. My H could not believe it. We had always trusted each other with our lives. I broke that trust. I showed not interest in him. I did not cook for him, or wash his clotes or anything. I never went anywhere with him b/c I wanted free time on the comuter to contact OM. I never told my H a lie accept for withholding what I was doing by contacting OM. I did not discuss my feeling or anything else about OM. I couldn't. It felt wrong to do that. Your W and I are very different in that respect.

My wife still cooks and cleans the house... but it's for the benefit of the family. She only goes out with me when we are with the kids. She only discussed her feeling for the OM when we first were openly talking about the affair but now only when I initiate the R talks. If I didn't ask I don't think she would be so open to volunteering this information... so I'm to blame for having to hear about these details.

[BigJohn]

[quote]

I think the thing that seems so weird with your W is how she openly talks about her fantasy with this OM with you and her BIL and friends. It amazes me that she is not embarrassed by having this attraction when she is a M woman. She acts as if it is nothing to be ashamed of. Why do you think that is? Has she been like that regarding other things in life?

She was mostly this way in March and only then confided in her closest friends and family members. I agree, the outward lack of shame even with her closest confidants is disturbing, she has never acted this way before. I kind of wonder if the lack of inhabition is some expression of her feeling "liberated" in her mind from me who has "oppressed" her all these years.

[BigJohn]

You see, Your W sees this OM as her future H and so she is eager to get everything into place.....including the children. She needs to know that OM and her children accept each other. That is part of the fantasy....to become one big happy family. And you? Oh, she thinks to "scr*w you" b/c you aren't important to her now. You are interferring with her plans.

I am aware of this and have made a point to inject little doses of reality into her fantasy whenever the need arises. For example, she really believed that I would just sign away my rights to the kids so she could move back with them to her home state until I told her in no uncertain terms would I do this. This really pissed her off because it is yet another obstacle to making her fantasy a reality. And it ups the ante for the OM- this maggot is going to have to make a lot of sacrifices in order to be my W's shining knight. But he is living in fantasy land also.

Big John....I want you to get this point if you get nothing else, okay? She can't stand you! There, I said it, and I'm sorry but that is how she really feels toward you while she is in this WAW mode. You are the least person on earth that she would probably try to save if drowning. Well, that may be extreme, but I want you to get the picture here. Stop thinking of her in terms of her being the person you M b/c she isn't there in her mind right now. She sees herself as already divorced from you. She may never be "normal"
again! Like I said, there are no promises. Do the best you can for you and the kids and if you believe in God, I sugest you pray real hard. I'm not trying to be "cute" or funny. I am dead serious.

I am aware of her not being able to stand me right now. Everything is my fault, she is not accountable for anything. And yes, I do believe in God and I pray to him regularly.

I had to "want" to be my old self again and have my life back. If your W doesn't "see" what is happening and have that desire to get herself well from this state of mind she's in.....then you or nobody else can help her.

I know she doesn't want the "old" marriage and neither do I. She has expressed fear of getting into a rut if she comes back to me and any of my positive changes don't stick. That doesn't sound like someone who won't change personalities. Yet in a new relationship, I think she will want to change into a different person to some degree.

She will not listen to you. If there is anybody that she admires and respects very highly.....she may at least listen to what they have to say, but I'm afraid that she is so far gone in her fantasy of this OM and what she thinks he is and what their future will be......it really concerns me that she is over the top......she has lost touch with reality. There is something that I don't know how to explain where she is concerned. I'm wondering if there is something more here than an EA with OM. I'm wondering if she needs professional help in why this all happened.

She won't listen to anyone including her father who unfortunately is a lot like me. And she won't talk to our pastor about things either.

A big concern is to what extent this OM is pursuing her. Is he just getting his kicks out of this and thinks it will get him into her panties or is he seriously leading her to believe he will M her. My OM knew all the right words to lead me on and even told me he would come get me and take care of me.......but he never said anything about possibly getting M. He would refer to a future together, etc., but he was careful as to what words he use. He was very smart! Does she tell what the OM says to her? Or is it all how she feels, etc.?

Don't know those specifics, at the least he has implied that he wants to marry her, be a new daddy to my kids etc. Again, he appears to be living in the same fantasy world.

I think it may have been your other thread in Newcomers where I was one of the board's vets say that there is nothing a man can do about his WAW.....he just has to be as confident as he can be b/c that is what is most attractive. I think there is a lot of truth in that. In fact, guess what attracted me to my OM? Yep!

I understand the concept however I seem to be damned if I do and damned if I don't with her right now. She has had a hard time differentiating real confidence with cockiness/arrogance. She is really looking hard for some humility- something I can't do right now because I have to be strong.

Good night Sandi, thanks again for all of your feedback.

[sandi2]

My W has told me that during what she has described as the "height" of the EA in all of March (where she was only sleeping 3-4 hrs. everyday and texting/calling the OM 20+ hrs. non stop) that she felt this way and how incredible it was. She has stated that she no longer feels this level of intensity for OM...

So this shows that the chemicals supplied to her brain is decreasing and based on the other things you said about her finding another person if this OM doesn't work out, backs up what I said about my own self when I was addicted to the OM drug. She truly is "high" from this addiction and that is why she could go on just a few hours of sleep and had that "wonderful" feeling. What she doesn't know is that it will not last. Also, if she and OM met to have a PA, that often times fails big time. One lady told about meeting her OM to have sex and he could not perform and that was the only time...and last time they met. She could never make her H believe they did not have sex. It only proves that the "fantasy" does not play out the way the WAS dreams about. What concerns me about your W is that she must realize that the "drug" of this EA is wearing off b/c she is already thinking of the possiblity of looking for somebody else to "make her happy" if he doesn't work out. She is depending on another human to bring her happiness into her life. That is not very mature at her age and she needs to know that happiness is her choice. She has to make herself happy and not think it is your job or some other man's.

I tell you exactly what she reminds me of. One of the main things that got my attention was when I read about a couple of E-Books about womens.infadelity and I bought them and read both of them that night. They aren't that long, but it took me most of the night. I couldn't tear myself away b/c it not only described the condition I was presently in at the time, but what I would become if I continued the downward spiral ahead of me. It really, really shook me up and that was when I made my first real attempts at breaking lose of the EA. I had made weak attempts before, but after reading those two little books, I got serious. It takes both books b/c it is a continuation. I think it would be worth it to you to check it out and it would describe how your W is feeling and what to expect of her much better than I can.

She has told OM and I that she would rather live ALONE that live with me as the EA has brought into sharp contrast for her feelings/impressions that I "look down on her" and "always have." He puts her on a pedestal (big time!) and I do not.

It is just more of her disillusioned state of mind. You are her "scape goat" about everything. That is why you do more damage than good to try to discuss her EA or the OM with her. You won't talk her out of this and it will take either a bad experience or another person or situation to get her eyes open. What she doesn't know, is this OM probably spends his life playing on women. There is no telling how many women he is stringing along at the same time. I was told that about my OM and I would not believe it. It seemed so sincere! Yeah, right! Now, I believe that that is how he past his evenings away was on line with other women when I wasn't available. There were little signs that I begin to see but did not want to admit. She will too. The problem is if she'll try to find another man.

I believe that she is DEFINATLEY encouraging this type of though process with him- so I'm starting to wonder who is using who- both of them I guess for their own selfish reasons.

Exactly! She could very well be facing a MLC also. That makes it even worse b/c it takes longer to come out of that than the WAW mode. I hope she isn't, but don't know. The two are so similiar in symptoms, it is hard to know. Usually, one can look at the age of the woman. As I said before, hormone changes can affect us women in a massive way. Usually, a woman in MLC starts playing out her life as if she is a teenager or in her 20's and single again. She dresses too young and sexy. She wears a lot of make-up to hide her age and tries to act so young it makes her appear very redictulas. She's trying to recapture her youth and relive being single again. At this time, she thinks she could be a lot happier living alone than with you b/c she would be free to live the "single's life" which she thinks would be fun. She has it painted to be a sort of glamours lifestyle. With three kids, I don't think it would be so glamorous after a short time! If she is in MLC, this is going to be worse and take much, much longer. I hope she isn't.

My wife still cooks and cleans the house... but it's for the benefit of the family.

The difference for me was my children were not small and dependent on me. My children were grown and it's just the two of us here. I also have Fibromyalgia which left me completely drained of energy after work each day, so that was my excuse to not do anything. We ate easy to fix meals or carry-out and I only washed clothes we had to have. The housework pretty much went by the way-side. The point is, I did not do like I had always done with my home and being a wife. I used the excuse of my illness as my smokescreen. I happen to have a very understanding H who did not make demands of me, and plush he trusted me when I was on the computer for hours. It was an accident that he discovered my activity on-line. I was so stupid to think he wouldn't find out. That shows you how fogged a person's mind is when they are like that. They do not "think" rationally.

If I didn't ask I don't think she would be so open to volunteering this information... so I'm to blame for having to hear about these details.

Unless you "want" to hear about her EA and the OM, I would suggest that you not ask any more questions, period. To me, it is disrespectful to you, her H, to discuss her feelings for OM. It also leads her into conversations of how badly you have failed her as a H. So, it does you no good and causes much pain and knocks your self-esteem on its bottom. I would suggest that if she brings up anything about OM or her feelings for the single life, etc., that you stop her in mid sentence and say, "You know what? I really don't want to hear you talk about that anymore. I perfer you keep those thoughts to yourself and not share them. I have all the information about the subject that I need, now". Or something in your own words, but that is the general idea.

As I said before, it is very important that she show you respect and especially in front of your children. Now that you do know what is going on and she's been upfront with you, and some men say they perfer that instead of the lying....which I understand, but I don't think she should continue to discuss the details of her feelings and go on & on about it. That's JMHO, but it doesn't seem right and certainly not respectful. (I know, neither is having an A, but I'm talking about "showing" respect for you.) If you could talk to her beforehand and tell her that you will not tollerate her speaking disrespectful any longer and that she is to not even hint at leaving you or the OM in front of the children (and always refer to them as "the" children and not "your" children.....b/c it will make her temper flare) then she would at least be warned and then when you stop her from finishing a sentence or whatever....she will know "why" you are doing it. If ANYTHING is ever said that is inappropriate, you need to stop it right then and there. If possible, dismiss the kids to the other room or take her to another room and remind her that she slipped up and not to talk that way in front of the children. Don't argue with her b/c she will start. Just walk away. Don't get into a R with her b/c she will start. This is the "trap" that you must beware of and do not fall into it. Everytime she begins to argue or start a R talk....stop her and tell her you are not going to get into it, and walk away. You may even have to leave the house if she is in a rage.

She was mostly this way in March and only then confided in her closest friends and family members.

This shows how quicly her drug is deplinishing. It is important to know if she is getting support from her friends and closest family members. If she feels they are on "her side", then it encourages her. You see, my H exposed me to my mother and it about killed her. I almost hated him for doing that but he was very angry at the time and knew I was on my way over to her house. I didn't know if it was the end of our M or exactly what I was doing when I went to her that night, I just knew I had to get away from him. So, he called her before I got there and told her to make me tell her the "whole truth" and not just my side of it. Fortunately, he did not go into the horrible details of my actions with that man, but he told her I was having an inappropriate R with OM. As a result, I had to confirm what he said and it has taken years off her life. I was the "good" daughter who she would have suspected something like this from ANYBODY before me. So, now you know how badly it shocked and disappointed her. But, do you know that in my trying to win her over to "my side" of things, I bad mouthed my H to the point that she was turning against him. She never accepted the idea of that OM by any means, but it hurt her R with my H. She's never mistreated him but she doesn't think as much of him due to my negative talk. So, your W is doing the same thing and turning people against you. The more she makes you out to be the bad guy in the MR, the more she thinks she is justified to leave you and go find happiness where ever it make take her. If she has D friends or those who have been involved in A's or are in unhappy M's, they are probably cheering her on. If her family and friends are not supporting what she's doing....she will drop them out of her life and not discuss what she's doing. So, you can watch what happens and know if they backed her up or not.

I am aware of this and have made a point to inject little doses of reality into her fantasy whenever the need arises. For example, she really believed that I would just sign away my rights to the kids so she could move back with them to her home state until I told her in no uncertain terms would I do this. This really pissed her off because it is yet another obstacle to making her fantasy a reality. And it ups the ante for the OM- this maggot is going to have to make a lot of sacrifices in order to be my W's shining knight. But he is living in fantasy land also.

Yes, this confirms what I said before. It is unreal to the LBH how crazy her mind can work. Maybe the OM is living in a fantasy also, but based on the information I've gained about the majority of some of these men, he knows exactly what he's doing and she's not the only one he's playing. These men would do and say most anything just for a one night's stand. As you said, he's pathetic.

Don't do things to intentionlly make her angry b/c she will do things out of spite toward you and I promise, it won't be good! But, you do need to show a lot of self-respect and have her to show you respect in front of the children. When in private, I would not allow her to disrespect me then either if I had to leave for a couple of hours and then come back......I would get the point across to her that I was not going to stand back and do nothing while she treated me like that. As I said, you can't control what she does when she away or hidden out, but you can handle things that happen in you front of you. Unless she had a bad upbringing, hopefully she knows down in her heart that W's and H's are to show respect toward each other. Although, her conscious is not working properly, so you may have to remind her from time to time that she is not behaving appropriately as a mother. She doesn't care if how she's acting as a W......which she's made clear. But, hopefully, she still cares how she acts as a mother. Just save that phrase for a "have to" case b/c she will hate you for it.

You see, nothing you say or do is going to cause her to like you very much. So the best thing for you is to turn her lose. You do that by dropping the rope and begin to live your life apart from her. Am I telling you to move out? NOT A ALL! Don't leave those children! But, drop the rope from her by cutting your emotional feelings as much as you possibly can. You back off and leave her alone to do whatever she would do anyway (accept for the showing respect) and make sure the children are not being mistreated by her and that you spend a lot of time with them. You need to be out away from her, physically, as much as you can (with the children or without them) and give her all the space she wants. But, hopefully, she will notice how you are looking really great b/c you are working out (right?) and wearing good-looking new clothes and wearing great cologne when you go out........and she wonders what is that all about. Then she is aware of how much time you are away from her and you always seem to have something else to do that doesn't include her! Hey, you are GAL!! You are not showing you care one twit about her or what she's doing in "her" life!! She notices that you are not available to her like you use to be. Oh.....hummmm......that makes you interesting to her and gets her attention. At least, we hope it does. A person never knows if the WAW will look back at her LBH or not when he drops the rope, but for sure, she won't if he doesn't. I think in most cases that dropping the rope is the only hope for the LBH. It only works......(are you listening closely here?)....it only works if you do it for your sake and not to win her back. I told you the positive things that "may" happen as a result of you dropping the rope, but it doesn't happen every time. However, even if it doesn't....you will be able to gain strength and self-esteem to the place you are much better off than you are now. Right now, you don't think that is possible, but many men have experienced that very thing. Some have found out that they became detached much more rapidly than they thought possible. It is called....survival. I think it is your only chance with your WAW.

You are getting a lot of advice over on the Newcomers thread. Puppy Dog is a vet here on the board and he's been through the ringer, so he knows the score. Some others are pretty new to the board, but are going through the same thing you are. Anyway, you have to do what you think is best for your stitch. It is your life. We will be here to try to encourage you.

Take care,
Sandi

[BigJohn]

What concerns me about your W is that she must realize that the "drug" of this EA is wearing off b/c she is already thinking of the possiblity of looking for somebody else to "make her happy" if he doesn't work out. She is depending on another human to bring her happiness into her life. That is not very mature at her age and she needs to know that happiness is her choice. She has to make herself happy and not think it is your job or some other man's.

Agreed, she does have co-dependent tendencies. In fact our C gave her the book "Codependent No More" to read. W got to Chapter 3 before throwing the book against the wall and stating that she couldn't identify with anything in it.

I tell you exactly what she reminds me of. One of the main things that got my attention was when I read about a couple of E-Books about womens.infadelity and I bought them and read both of them that night. They aren't that long, but it took me most of the night. I couldn't tear myself away b/c it not only described the condition I was presently in at the time, but what I would become if I continued the downward spiral ahead of me. It really, really shook me up and that was when I made my first real attempts at breaking lose of the EA. I had made weak attempts before, but after reading those two little books, I got serious. It takes both books b/c it is a continuation. I think it would be worth it to you to check it out and it would describe how your W is feeling and what to expect of her much better than I can.

Which books are those? Are you referring to "Women's Infidelity- Living in Limbo" and "Women's Infidelity II" by Michelle Langley? I got 'em both. Interesting reads. Some of the conclusions she comes to are tough to swallow, especially about the women usually being "100% done" by the time they get around to sharing their needs with their husbands- like that list my wife shared with me of her "needs" that I mentioned in a prior post- that I took as a POSITIVE sign. Good grief! Also, the section on women's guilt was kind of tough to read too. Do you or any of the other former WAWs see any validity with regards to Langley's observations on women's guilt? Some of what she writes about women's guilt almost borders on sociopathic behavior.

What she doesn't know, is this OM probably spends his life playing on women. There is no telling how many women he is stringing along at the same time. I was told that about my OM and I would not believe it. It seemed so sincere! Yeah, right! Now, I believe that that is how he past his evenings away was on line with other women when I wasn't available. There were little signs that I begin to see but did not want to admit. She will too. The problem is if she'll try to find another man.

I pointed that out to her about OM as well. All she had to do is look over his Facebook page and see all the married women who are his "friends". She just can't see what a creep he is!

She could very well be facing a MLC also.

The only possible signs I've seen are posting old H.S. photos on her Facebook page, joining her H.S. alumni club (to look up other old boyfriends perhaps? and wistful comments about the "good old days". She has also been very diligent in working out 2 hrs. a day to get in the best shape she can.

My wife still cooks and cleans the house... but it's for the benefit of the family.

I should add, however, that she hasn't been putting much effort into finding a new job.

This shows how quicly her drug is deplinishing. It is important to know if she is getting support from her friends and closest family members. If she feels they are on "her side", then it encourages her.

Although some acknowledge my faults to her, no one in her family wants to see her divorce me. She does have one friend, however, that lived the single life up through age 40, with kids, and who seems to be providing her with either neutral or somewhat positive feedback- not sure what that is though.

As a result, I had to confirm what he said and it has taken years off her life. I was the "good" daughter who she would have suspected something like this from ANYBODY before me. So, now you know how badly it shocked and disappointed her. But, do you know that in my trying to win her over to "my side" of things, I bad mouthed my H to the point that she was turning against him. She never accepted the idea of that OM by any means, but it hurt her R with my H. She's never mistreated him but she doesn't think as much of him due to my negative talk. So, your W is doing the same thing and turning people against you. The more she makes you out to be the bad guy in the MR, the more she thinks she is justified to leave you and go find happiness where ever it make take her. If she has D friends or those who have been involved in A's or are in unhappy M's, they are probably cheering her on. If her family and friends are not supporting what she's doing....she will drop them out of her life and not discuss what she's doing. So, you can watch what happens and know if they backed her up or not.

You are spot on with this. She apparently has been attacking my "sincerity" with her family, trying to develop some skepticism with them over me. I suspect that this has had limited success with my SILs but very little effect with my BILs and FIL. My FIL is a strong supporter of me and our family, he had a talk with W about the A and the M that did not end well and they haven't been talking much which is too bad as they are close. It is ironic how the only two people my W says she trusts her life with- her H and her Dad- are the two people she is most on the outs with right now.

But, hopefully, she will notice how you are looking really great b/c you are working out (right?) and wearing good-looking new clothes and wearing great cologne when you go out........and she wonders what is that all about. Then she is aware of how much time you are away from her and you always seem to have something else to do that doesn't include her! Hey, you are GAL!! You are not showing you care one twit about her or what she's doing in "her" life!! She notices that you are not available to her like you use to be. Oh.....hummmm......that makes you interesting to her and gets her attention. At least, we hope it does. A person never knows if the WAW will look back at her LBH or not when he drops the rope, but for sure, she won't if he doesn't. I think in most cases that dropping the rope is the only hope for the LBH. It only works......(are you listening closely here?)....it only works if you do it for your sake and not to win her back. I told you the positive things that "may" happen as a result of you dropping the rope, but it doesn't happen every time. However, even if it doesn't....you will be able to gain strength and self-esteem to the place you are much better off than you are now. Right now, you don't think that is possible, but many men have experienced that very thing. Some have found out that they became detached much more rapidly than they thought possible. It is called....survival. I think it is your only chance with your WAW.

Haven't seen too much of this yet, but then I haven't dropped the rope until now. So far, she has admitted that I'm still handsome, although she makes a point to never reciprocate compliments no matter how good I'm looking.

I agree with you on dropping the rope, if even for the sake of survival. I've got to do it for me and for the kids sakes.

Hey thanks again Sandi for another great post!

[sandi2]

It is ironic how the only two people my W says she trusts her life with- her H and her Dad- are the two people she is most on the outs with right now.

So, that shows you how mixed up she is.

I will have to review the part on women's guilt in those books. The part that got me was the downward spiral and how the woman will finally get to the place she cannot be satisfied in any R and that her feelings will become so numb that it's as if she died. Now, that scared the mess out of me and was very instumental in getting me turned around.

If your W cannot see herself in any material she reads, it sounds very bad. She may be too far gone.....but I don't know that. I do think the best thing for you and for the R would be to drop the rope b/c you need to move forward in life in order to survive and if anything sends a message to her....dropping the rope will. It will take time for even that to hit her, but I don't think anything else will be productive at this time. I only hope that she will come to her normal self before it is too late for her mental & emotional state.

Don't stop posting b/c you still need the support here. I'll check back later.

Sandi