Hello Kittyfish & Sandi2!

[sandi2]

Hi BJ,

You are sounding much better today.

What other things brought about a desire in you to stop your EA? Was there a particular pivotal moment that sparked your interest in wanting to stop the EA?

I have that asked by LBH's a lot. It wasn't like a scene out of a movie where a particular incident happened that knocked me on my backside. When I came on the board here, I was fortunate enough that the "right people" came to my thread and I mean they were hitting me with 2x4's like you wouldn't believe. However, they threw enough true concern in their posts that I could handle what that tough love. I also got those E-Books I told you about around the time I first came here. So, it was like I was being flooded with the information I needed. However, with all of that going through my mind.....it still took time for me to "finally" let go of OM for good. The "process" of ending it is more than just saying good-bye or deleting his email, etc. It is what the WAW has to do within her own mind/soul. That, in my case, was not a "particular pivotal moment". It seems as if it should be, doesn't it? But, all this information and daily stuff has to continue to "build" inside of the WAW and finally I began to accept the decision I knew I had to make. Then.....the painful follow-through with that big decision. So again....I hate to tell you that it is that old four letter word you despise.....TIME.

BTW, I also read "The Walk Out Woman" and that was helpful to me. I think it would be very helpful for LBH's to read to understand how their WAW is feeling.

I think an important part with respect is establishing some good boundaries, but I'm not sure where to start. I'd like some ideas on this beyond "turn off her cell phone".

That's a hard one for me as a former WAW. Puppy Dog Tails is your man to help understand and get ideas for "boundaries". I do know that you can't talk to her like you were her father and use that tone of voice with her. Man, she will fight you to the death, if you try that. It's a fine line. Puppy told his W that under no circumstances was she to contact OM in the presence of the children. She was not to contact him (TM or call, etc.) in front or him (Pup). In other words, you can't control her sneaking around and doing things behind your back, but you can control her showing disrespect right in front of you. I would think it would be hard where the kids are concerned b/c they would actually have to tell you if Mom was TM or calling OM for you to know, but I agree with Pup that it is highly disrepectful for a WAW to do that.

Another time Puppy's W came in around 2:00 AM once and he told her if she ever did that again, she would find the house locked.....and I can't remember the rest of it. I wondered if she didn't have a key or if he would change the locks, but he told her she'd have to get by the best way she could....so I guess he would have changed the locks while she was out...

It all goes back to her doing things that "openly" shows disrespect toward you, as her H. If she is our running around town at 2:00 AM, then people see her and it is a reflection on you as her H. She has to suffer some type of consequenses for her actions and it has to be severe enough that the enjoyment she would have received from her running around was not worth her consequences. Just like we discpline our kids with suffering consequenses.

You can't demand that she stop all contact with OM, b/c she won't. You have to lay certain things out in "steps" for her. Like a plan to go by. Puppy would tell his W that he did not intend to live in an "open M" and that was why he would not have sex with his W until she stopped her PA. He does advise men to sleep in the marital bed and let the W make the decision to sleep elsewhere "if" she doesn't want to share a bed with him. But this is a sign of him being the "head" of his home and that it was not "him" that is WW. (These are my words...not Pup's)

If you contact Puppy, he could give you better ideas to help you.

No wimps here. I am back in the saddle, ready to get back to work.

YES!

Hope you have a good 4th.

Sandi

[BigJohn]

Hey Sandi, great to hear back from you, hope you had a good 4th of July. Our family had a pretty nice time ourselves. Not too many distractions, except once, while we all waited in the car for 15 minutes for my W to get off the damn phone with OM. I'm pretty sure she was texting him back and forth throughout the evening as well but I didn't pay attention, just had fun with the kids.

Anyways, I wanted to follow up with you a little bit regarding my first question in my prior post:

What other things brought about a desire in you to stop your EA? Was there a particular pivotal moment that sparked your interest in wanting to stop the EA?

You mentioned getting good feedback on the boards here and also reading the E-books that gave you information which started you down the road of letting the OM go. But before all of that happened, something- or maybe several "somethings"- occurred which piqued your curiosity that led you to do these things. I'm very interested in knowing what that trigger (or combination of triggers) was/were. Was it something someone said to you (for example, either OM or H)? Something you read? Something that happened? Were these triggers direct, indirect or both? Subtle or not so subtle?

When I came on the board here, I was fortunate enough that the "right people" came to my thread and I mean they were hitting me with 2x4's like you wouldn't believe. However, they threw enough true concern in their posts that I could handle what that tough love.

I agree, the people on the boards here are terrific! But why do you think that the people here were more effective in reaching you than your own friends/family? What is maddening about my sitch is that EVERYONE is telling my W to give me a chance and to work on her M! From what I am gathering, the majority of friends/family members are also telling her she is making a BIG mistake continuing this EA and risking her M to me. Even my W admits that NO ONE in our life wants us to D. Our issues, while important, are just not enough to justify D... AT ALL. Yet, she cannot let OM go and just keeps saying our M "is over".

However, with all of that going through my mind.....it still took time for me to "finally" let go of OM for good. The "process" of ending it is more than just saying good-bye or deleting his email, etc. It is what the WAW has to do within her own mind/soul. That, in my case, was not a "particular pivotal moment". It seems as if it should be, doesn't it? But, all this information and daily stuff has to continue to "build" inside of the WAW and finally I began to accept the decision I knew I had to make. Then.....the painful follow-through with that big decision. So again....I hate to tell you that it is that old four letter word you despise.....TIME.

Wow... taking those steps yourself to "detoxify" sounds like WORK which could be a major problem for my W should she chose to eventually take the same steps. My W does not like hard work, she is a path of least resistance person by nature. BTW, I'm assuming that the longer the EA goes on the longer it will take for my W to recover if she chooses to do so. How long did your EA go for relative to your recovery?


As always, thanks Sandi.

[/quote]

[sandi2]

But why do you think that the people here were more effective in reaching you than your own friends/family?

As far as I know, none of our friends knew anything. My mother knew and I found out our grown D knew. My D may have told my S....but I could not bear to deal with that knowledge right at that time. You have to understand that my background was one of very religious and moral upbringing. My life had been built on the Church. My activities were all around the Church. So, try to imagine how my "fall" was eating me up alive. I was able to tune the Church & God out for a while. I had health problems that I could use for an "excuse" to miss services and stay home. But, after time went by, my guilt in knowing I was living in disobedience to God, was eating me up.

There are actually spaces of time in all of that that are almost like it has been "blacked out". I don't mean to try to be dramatic, but it is kind of hard for me to remember what order some things went. That shows you that it truly effects the mind of a WAW. The term, "fog" is for a reason. It is a "crises" mode they are in and she isn't herself and doesn't/can't seem to function like she use to.

I have to say that it was not one particular event--or a conversation from anyone. It was all of it working together...and the "timing" that this all happened, I believe, was very important. I will be as honest with you as I can and tell you that my greatest fear above everyting was the news getting out into the community and "me" being the focus of a lot of gossip. I felt that my family would be lose their good name in the community and the Church.....not just "me". People talk about how selfish WAS are, and that's true, but I did not want my family to suffer humiliation from gossip and from what I had done. It still sounds crazy to try to put it into words and probably every LBS is thinking I'm a hypocrite. I remembering thinking that IF it got out, then I would HAVE to leave town! And, I am convinced that I would have.

I knew my family would be terribly embarrassed if it got out about my EA. But, the real kicker came the day my D told me that she "knew" about my EA. I will never forget that day as long as I live. I got so sick when she told me and I didn't know how I could look at her. She knew I had been going through something emotional and I had almost had a "melt-down" in front of her, my H, and my GS shortly before she told me of her knowledge. She couldn't stand seeing what I was doing to myself (is what she told me). We never talked about it after that day. I know that a lot of people would think that wasn't the way to handle things but when I decided to stay in my M, I did tell my son & daughter, and thay were happy and that was all we discussed. The problem was between me and their dad.....not them. BTW, I had told my S (and I "think" it was right before my D informed me she knew.....but I'm not sure).....that I was thinking about leaving his dad. He nearly passed out from shock. But I had never told him about OM involved. My D probably did, but like I said....I did not discuss it. The first thing my S asked was if his dad was running around on me. I could see his "protectiveness" kick in for his mom. I just told him we were having a lot of personal problems and he said he should have realized b/c we had gotten where we would argue in front of them, which we never did when they were growing up.

If the fact that I did not talk to them about what happen, had been a problem in our R with my children, then of course I would, but my children are grown with families of their own, so it's not like they are little kids at home. Everyone has to do what they feel like is best for their stitch. If it ever comes up in our conversation, then I will talk more about it.

I had realized way back in the A that I could not support myself and that was why I was still living under the same roof with H. I took "risks" about the EA that I would never have taken if I had been in my normal frame of mind. I told myself that if it got out that I would just go to OM b/c he had said he'd come get me and take care of me. I was so stupid to not realize that as soon as he was tired of me, he'd kick me out on the street! Another way that shows the WAW is not using her thought process normally.

The talk between my D and I was very short....but powerful. I asked her if she thought it was too late and if her dad still loved me. I will never forget the look in her eyes. She said, "Daddy? Still love you? Oh, Mom!" Then she started crying. She had not shed a tear before then. She did not know of another man who loved their W as much as her dad loved me. (Of course, this is noramal for her to think that..I believe....but it helped me to hear it, never-the-less.)

I can see the impact it would have when WAW's are "exposed" to family. However, in my stitch, if it had happened the way I read about some here on the board.....I promise you it would have backfired in a huge and terrible way. I will always believe that the timing was just like it needed to be for me to be able to start seeing through the fog and to realize what I "had" to do. No, my emotions did not go along with my decision at that time. But, I had learned enough through the Church to know that if we make a decision based on what is the right thing to do, then the feelings/emotions will follow later. Mine came much, much later!

That is why I have strong feelings about "exposure" and I can see where in some cases it has to be done as a LRT in order to bust the A. But, I do not believe it is grounds for a success MR. If there is going to be exposure, then the LBS needs to realize that it is strickly to bust up the A and not a means to get the WAS back into their arms again. Exposure is very ugly and hurts a lot of innoncent people. My mother's health has gone down so rapidly since she was told. Am I do blame? Absolutely! But I don't think it was neccessary for her to be told. Not to protect me, but her. She is very elderly and why put her through that b/c of vindictivness. And....that was why my H told her. I would not tell my H's parents that he was addicted to porn. (Which I'm only using here as an example.) But do you see what I mean? The porn addiction would cause a problem in our MR and may even cause us to split, but I would not do that to his parents. I see it as a personal or private issue between the M couple. In some R's where gambling or drinking is the problem that is tearing the family apart.....that has already been made "public". Maybe it is the way I was raised, that you didn't talk about private matters between H & W. But, I am concerned that the advice to "expose" to Newcomers is being taken and applied before the WAW can even have time to try to work through her issues. For an example, one young man took that advice within the first 24 hourse of discovering his W's EA. He was angry and told out of spite. Now, he sees where his W is cold and angry toward him and he has more problems than he had b/c of the exposure. What was an EA could very easily turn into a PA b/c she could think that if everyone knows, she might as well go all the way. That is what he's concerned about....now. But...the sad thing is that he had already advised some "other" Newcomers to expose. So, it can be given too quickly and people react before the "timing" is right.

I want to make this perfectly clear.....I do believe that if the WAS is flaunting an A, then by all means, expose it.....b/c the WAS has already done the exposing anyway, when they made it public. I do not think a LBS should put up with a PA for one second when the WAS has flaunted it in their faces. But if it can be settled privately, then I still think that is the way it should be handled. At least I do not fear looking at people and wondering if they have heard and what they are thinking about me. I know my children love me and forgive me, but others would not be so willing. My mother loves and forgives, but her disappointment in me was too much for a lady her age to take. I will have to live with that for the rest of my life.

I went beyond answering the question you had for me... but this was on my heart, so I shared it. Hope it helps you in some way.

Take care,
Sandi

[BigJohn]

Sandi,

Thank you for sharing your experience, it sort of confirmed what I suspected about the process leading up to a WAW's potential "awakening"- many variables combining together along with the timing. Not that I want to get away from the most important variable in my sitch (improving myself), I was just curious about other external influences that eventually changed your sitch in your H's favor. Such influences can't be that random can they? Aside from DBing, the only other significant influence I've read about thus far on the boards is when the WAW is faced with the enormity of the D, then they maybe question what they are doing and don't act on it- setting the stage for Limbo.

Anyways, another question for you. Something I'm having a problem with in my DBing is being noticeably upbeat/positive and/or friendly around my W when I'm feeling less than happy about our sitch. Specifically, this is when we are alone together. When we are around others or having fun somewhere- no problem. What I am finding is that I am able to default to not speaking to her and being neutral- not displaying any outward emotions. I'm not deliberately trying to be cold to her, it just seems to be the easiest way for me to deal with her at the present time this way. So far, she hasn't initiated much conversation during these times, so I don't know how awkward she may or may not feel about it. Something that got me thinking about this was when she told me a couple of R talks ago that she felt like she was "living with Mr. Spock"- her response to my attempts to talk rationally with her.

I am finding that I can be consistently respectful and considerate to my W, but being openly friendly to her is a big challenge given the way she is treating me. Any thoughts on how I might be able to overcome this?

[Gardener]

BigJohn,

What I am finding is that I am able to default to not speaking to her and being neutral- not displaying any outward emotions. I'm not deliberately trying to be cold to her, it just seems to be the easiest way for me to deal with her at the present time this way.

Could you not view this simply as a step in detaching?

[sandi2]

I think it is perfectly normal to feel akward when it is just the two of you. When around others, you have the distraction of "them" to use as your focus. When it is only the two of you, the stitch is what is on your mind to the point of not being able to think of something else to say. That is one reason that couples get into a R talk so easily. That and the fact their emotions are still running wild.

Might sound kind of silly, but you might jot some things down as you think about them. Then when you are with her, maybe your mind will remember the things you wrote down. Worth a shot, don't you think?

Take care,
Sandi

[BigJohn]

BigJohn,

What I am finding is that I am able to default to not speaking to her and being neutral- not displaying any outward emotions. I'm not deliberately trying to be cold to her, it just seems to be the easiest way for me to deal with her at the present time this way.

Could you not view this simply as a step in detaching?

Agreed. It is mainly an issue simply because it is so out of character for me and our relationship. Then again, my W's EA is completely out of character for her.

BTW, checked out your thread- looks like it might have locked? Anyways was so busy replying on the snooping question that I forgot your W was out of the house- ouch.
That certainly makes things much more difficult trying to ascertain if there is currently OM. However it stands to reason that if there was/is a OM she would have been in contact with him before she moved out. So the suggestions I made in my prior post might still be worth pursuing if your looking to confirm this to understand what you may be up against.

[BigJohn]

I think it is perfectly normal to feel akward when it is just the two of you. When around others, you have the distraction of "them" to use as your focus. When it is only the two of you, the stitch is what is on your mind to the point of not being able to think of something else to say. That is one reason that couples get into a R talk so easily. That and the fact their emotions are still running wild.

Might sound kind of silly, but you might jot some things down as you think about them. Then when you are with her, maybe your mind will remember the things you wrote down. Worth a shot, don't you think?

Take care,
Sandi

Sandi,

I'll give that a try. Thanks.

[BigJohn]

Hey Sandi.

Well another backslide last night. We started talking about our financial situation, then about how my W has not been actively looking for a regular part time job since losing her job and becoming involved in the EA. Apparently a factor in not doing so is this plan of hers to travel back to her home state in August for a couple of weeks to visit with her family- and go out on dates with OM. I told her we simply can't afford it financially (or otherwise), she became adamant that it's going to happen- according to her this trip is going to play a crucial part in making her final decision regarding our M- and we began to argue.

During the course of our conversation/argument, she provided information indicating that the OM had recently told her he no longer wanted her in his life, that he felt my W was using him as a crutch to get out of her M to me. Apparently he stopped contact with my W for a couple days before resuming contact because according to my W he loves her.

My W basically acknowledged that she is using OM as he suspects and indicated that she wants OMs emotional support in working towards divorcing me as she doesn't want to try to deal with it on her own. I also got the distinct impression that OM has been verbally abusive towards her- when I asked her if she thought OM really respected her she wouldn't answer. I'm starting to think that maybe she is starting to drive him crazy as well with her talk of "It's (M) over, I don't want to work on it" and "I want a R with you (OM)" but no movement whatsoever regarding D. (I know, if true this would be a good thing.) Presumably my W's plan for the trip in August is to solidify OM's support for her through some degree of physical affection.

I tried to approach my W last night from the standpoint that despite our current M problems we are still business partners and we need her to get employed again. What is frustrating is that her lack of motivation in this regard is like everything else in that it is interwoven with the EA and the OM. I just don't know how to handle our financial situation and her employment situation under the circumstances. Time is not on our side here, our savings are almost gone and she needs to get employed again. Even if/when she does get employed again, it is going to take us some time to get back on our feet financially- and that means we aren't going to be in a position to separate for some time to come.

This is one area that is holding me back from really detaching from my W. Any ideas on how to work on these specific issues with my W would be appreciated.

[MrBond]

Don't sacrifice your and your childrens' finances for your W's actions. Is there any way you can lock up your assets so she can't get to them?

Tell her that she is more than welcome to go. However she must find her own way to pay for it because you are saving the money for the children to LIVE on. Refuse to give her a single penny. Change the accounts if need be, but protect yourself.

Maybe setup a small account that's just for her with SOME money inside as an act of good faith, but tell her that she can only deposit and withdraw from that account. Your problem is that you are talking to her like a reasonable adult. She is not. She is a spoiled teenager who is crying when she doesn't get what she wants. You have to be the responsible one. Just do all this very calmly and matter of factly. Talk to her as if you were talking to one of your kids.