Slowly getting better?? - WAW advice still needed.

[techguy]

Hi Sam,

There are so many similarities between your wife and my STBXW. They both have huge self-esteem issues and want(ed) to live in the 'we'll be a big happy family while we live apart' thing going.

Bottom line: Your wife's issues have nothing to do with you. She has little to no motivation to address them. She is much happier living day to day in your current arrangment. It's perfect for her. On 'good days' she gets the illusion of living an independent life which boosts her self-esteem (at your families expense). But on a bad day you are right there to rescue her, supply her with a lifing comment, etc...

I don't want to be negative, but this situation likely has no end. It's perfect for her. Meanwhile, for you, it's like you are waiting next to your wife at a hospital bed, patiently waiting to see if she comes out of the coma.

Sure, you see changes over time. But she is emotionally unstable... of course she has changes. But they are mostly just random. Each time, you see a little change and try to see it as something planned and a positive step forward. But is it really?

Don't make this about her. Make it about you. You need to decide how much of your life you are going to invest in this arrangement. Only you can make that decision.

[Sam1007]

TG! You're back! Good to hear from you!

I see your point. I see it very clearly. I agree with 99% of what you are saying. What I don't agree with is that she's happier now. She simply is not. OK, maybe she is happIER, but a long ways away from happy, that's for sure. So, I'm not so sure she has no incentive to try and improve her own situation. As a matter of fact, I think that's what she's been trying to do for the past couple of months.

The other thought I had when reading your comment is: so if we do go our separate ways, then we'll both be unhappy (even though right now I think I would get over it pretty quickly). So that kind of sucks too.

As far as how I see her changes, yes, they are random and inconsistent, and I certainly don't see them as planned. I think she's looking for ways to make herself happy and what I see is her probing around, trying different things.

I don't know TG. I guess there are always 2 ways of viewing things, negative and positive... She's told me at the time of the bomb, that she had to deal with my depression for 2 yrs. So, when she asked me last December how long I was going to "wait", I told her that since she has had to deal with me for 2 yrs, I should give her the same time (that would be the end of this calendar year). I also told her that I wasn't waiting. That I am carrying on with all aspects of my life, except starting a new R.

I really appreciate you stopping by! Your comments have started some new thinking and I needed that! Don't wait another 4 months again!

[pearlharbr]

I tend to agree with TG. The current situation may not be perfect for her but it definitely suits her needs much more than yours or the family's needs. I understand you wanting to repay her patience with your depression. Just don't be surprised if nothing changes substantially unless and until you declare you're now even and are moving on. She knows you're not going anywhere for the rest of the year.

I am the same way and that's what got me into problems in the first place. I knew things weren't good with BF but he never complained so I just let things go on as they were. Same thing with my unemployment. I'm being lazy about it because there's no pressure to do otherwise. I know I need to change but it's difficult to change after so many years. Not an excuse, just trying to explain that I see how she can act the way she's acting.

[Sam1007]

I understand both your points. My dilemma is that I can sense that she really doesn't feel like she deserves me. I don't mean to talk down from my pedestal, but that's the feeling I get from talking to her ("sorry to bother you","thanks for picking up the phone").

Latest devleopment: This past Sat, I went to the movies with her sister and StepS13. W had a cable guy comeing to hook up internet and TV, and that was more important, so she did not go. Well, to summarize in a few sentences: as we sat down, SIL spilled water on herself, and StepS13 was making a joke, so SIL laughed with popcorn in her mouth and got a piece in her windpipe and started choking. (Ironic sidenote: I had gotten CPR and Heimlich maneuver training 2 months ago!) So I grabbed her and proceeded to do the Heimlich maneuver on her as the lights went out. She said later that she started to black out when the 4th or 5th maneuver finally cleared the piece of popcorn. After it was over, I think I was just as shaken up as her. Trying to recollect exactly what I did later in the day, it seems like I acted largely out of instinct, because I don't remember any detailed, specific actions between her starting to make hand signals that she's choking and the last couple of maneuvers. Anyways, so now SIL and parents in law are thanking me for my quick reactions and SIL apparently also told the whole thing to W. So on Sun, W calls me to tell me that she heard about everything. And again, her voice makes me feel like she's thinking "well, once agian, you are being viewed as the best guy in the world and I am the outcast that noone cares about..." And there's NOTHING I can do that will make her stop thinking that way. If I am happy and doing great, she takes it as: "see he's happier without me, I'm just holding him back" and if I am miserable (as I was during my depressed time, she takes it as: "he's holding me back and he doesn't support me". So my choice is: I'm taking care of me and I am making myself happy. I have tried to uplift her with encouragement for years prior to the "bomb" and after, but she will have to figure out for herself how to make herself happy and only then can we be happy together. Neither one of us is holding the other back right now, we both have to grow in that sense and I believe that I have gone a long way down that path already. She needs to do the same and I think she's starting to.

[Sam1007]

I went over to W's place on Wed night to pick up StepS13 to come hang out with me. Went in to talk about which school the twins should attend this upcoming school year. The discussion then turned to StepS13 and where he should go to school. There's a good school close to my work, so W said that she was thinking that StepS13 should live with me during the week, that way I can help him with homework and stuff. Then I am thinking that if we D, then he will be living with his ex-stepdad??? Does she want that?? Anyways, W talked to his dad for while that day and was relating the discussion. StepS13 has been living up in Maryland with his dad for the past 2 years (was always with us before that) and he wanted to move back with us for this upcoming school year. His dad had previously said that if he had good grades in school, he could choose. Now, he's backing out of that decision and telling W that she's not able to provide a stable home for him right now and therefore he should just stay with him. She says that's not fair and asks me what I think. I tell her that I think our sitch is not ideal for obvious reasons, but there are some problems up at his dad's house too, so it's not ideal there either. And I finished by saying that I'd love to have him here, but I really have no say in this matter, W and his dad need to come to an agreement on that. His dad was going to come visit this summer, but he hasn't done that, so I asked about that and W says that he won't like her apartment for sure, so him visiting to check things out won't help.

I saw an entry into asking her a couple of non-pressuring questions the MC had suggested I ask her (Is she happy now? Did she achieve what she thought to achieve by moving out?). So I ask her if SHE likes her apartment. She says no, but that's all she can afford and it was her decision to leave, and beggars can't be choosers. I followed up on her statement the other day that she hates it around here. She says that yes, she does NOT like living here at all, just doesn't like the people's attitude and would rather move away, but she's not taking the kids away from me, that's the mistake she made with StepS13 and look what a heartbreaking mess that is now! I then ask her if she achieved what she was hoping to achieve by moving out. She started by saying that it did not change her feelings for me, but that the stress between us went away, we started communicating better and she felt better about "us", but then all the financial stress of her own household and the shop increased tenfold and just stressed her out completely. She said she's been taking a break from being in her shop the last 3 weeks and it's like a HUGE weight is off her shoulders. She said that she's just not going to reopen it and concentrate on freelance design jobs instead, which don't require her own building. Said that she knows the people in town will be dissappointed, but that she has to think of herself and the kids needs first (which is what I advised her when she asked me for my opinion a couple of weeks ago, against all the other opinions of her friends in town). She said that she might revisit having her own store later on in life when the kids are out of the house. Then she continued saying that I had become a completely different person, more social then I have ever been, in great shape, working on projects in the house and that it's awesome! And (without me mentioning anything about moving back in) that if she moved back in, it would just all go back to sh!t, she would ruin everything, bring her stress back into my life, etc... (same thing as her email in Feb). Plus, what if I found someone I liked and wanted to have her over, how awkward would that be if your wife ... err, your ex-wife (her words exactly) is upstairs! I tell her that I have no interest in dating right now and she says that I should be dating and be having sex and don't I miss that? I said yes, I do miss that. I did not ask her if she did, but she'll think of that by herself I'm sure. She continued with that I have nothing to worry about because everybody sees her as the bad guy in this sitch anyways. Not sure what I should worry about as far as that's concerned...

So, in short, I am this awesome guy, great father, but she doesn't want to be in the same house. She wants to be just down the street, wherever I move. Maybe closing the shop will be a good thing, allowing her to think about things a bit more because she's been spending all of her efforts and time at the shop for the past 2 years. To me it's clear that she's trying to figure out how she can improve her situation (does it sound like that to you also TG and pearl?). It's also clear to me that she's not really done anything to that effect until about 3 weeks ago. She's also trying to figure out some medical issues with her that have been causing her to not feel good for the last couple of years and when she doesn't feel good she closes up and lets noone in.

Changes are happening, not sure which way, but they are changes...

[Sam1007]

Lots of things happened over the weekend, here's quick list, more details to follow!:
- W got operated and is recovering now
- W getting driven to and from the hospital by a guy from her town (he stayed overnight at the hospital). I have been suspicious of him before, but never found anything that didn't jive as he's taking care of the rental buildings in town including her shop and she's had a lot of trouble with the utilities, plumbing, etc... so she did have to interface with him. But I am now REALLY questioning his motives.
- her parents found this out and her father was STEAMING when he got back home apparently (SIL told me this) and lectured her about that over the phone
- her dad told me he would just completely cut her off and that he hopes I get custody of the kids if we do end up D
- StepS13 was gonna move back down with W and I, then not, then yes again, W getting lectured by his father
- W getting unsollicited advice from people around her town how I (and her xH) are controlling her and encouraging her to stand up for herself
- W still thinks she can just move wherever I will move for the rest of our lives, so we don't have to separate the kids
- W says that I am doing so well now, I seem so happy now without her. It's awesome to see me being so much better (her words here!)
- W says that if she would move back in, I would just turn back to crap.
- Told her I am the way I am now, and I don't want to be like I was before, not for this R, nor for a future R, the changes are permanent.
- W told me that I am just trying to hold on and she doesn't think her "feelings" will change, it's not gonna just turn on like a switch.
- Told her I am not afraid to move on, start dating, or be alone for a while, but that I think I owe it to the boys to try every single little thing that could work to avoid them getting hurt (and pointed to the example of how StepS13 is now hurting and torn between his dad and her)
- Told her that I think we haven't really worked on our R/M in the past year, that it will take work to get "feelings" back. That if we don't talk about and work on things on a regular basis (only had 3 discussions in the past year) then nothing will change.

Those are the most important ones... I will try to update later tonight with some more details.

[pearlharbr]

Wow Sam, lots going on! Sorry it's taken me a while to get back to you but know that I am reading to keep up.

Ok, so Friday's post...it does seem like she's very slowly moving toward improving her situation but I think you see more than I do. Keep in mind that I have a problem with patience, but to me it seems like she's moving at a glacial pace. Are you willing to wait another year with seeing the same small amount of progress?

And more disturbing is the guy who took W to the hospital. If you've wondered about him before then I think it's worth noting. I'm a firm believer in following your gut. This makes the sitch more complicated for sure. Not sure what to say other than don't ignore signs you don't want to see.

I would be inclined to say that you need to figure out what's going on with that guy before determining what to do next.

[Sam1007]

Hey pearl!

I agree with the glacial pace! It's going so very slowly!! But I would say the two most encouraging things are the fact that she's decided to close the shop (even against the advice of everyone in her town) and she's mentioned moving into a house where the boys can play outside with the dog. Of course, I'd rather have her move home to work on things, but if she leaves that town to live somewhere else, without the shop needing constant attention, that will allow her more "thinking" time to actually realize the consequences of what she's doing. I realize I am pretty optimistic here, but the whole situation with the operation, her family stepping in, with StepS13 over the weekend was all pretty intense for her.

Additionally, our discussions over the past couple of days have hit home on a few things that she needs to know:
- if we D, we will NOT live right down the road from each other the rest of our lives. Sooner or later, one of us will move and this will cause the boys to have to choose who to stay with. StepS13 now has 3 parents to visit!
- I am not desperately trying to "win her back", I am not afraid to start over, I know I now have a lot more knowledge about R and M that will allow me to make the next R/M much better. W can be the one I have my next R/M with if she wants.
- I am suspicious of the guy that brought her to the hospital. Her parents and her sister have called her and expressed the same. She claims he's really just a friend who's trying to help and "he's 18 yrs older than me for crying out loud" (her words).

All of these discussions were very calm and with dry eyes from my end, while she's getting emotional at times. But I've just decided that I don't care if it really comes to head right now. I am not hiding anything, not sugarcoating anything, just saying how it is... again... It's gotta sink in sooner or later... just hope it will be before my patience runs out and it's running thin by now.

[mindfull]

Sam:

Wow, you are carrying a heavy load! It sounds like a good idea that W closed her shop, and will be working on design jobs from home.

- W got operated and is recovering now (SERIOUS?)
- W getting driven to and from the hospital by a guy from her town (he stayed overnight at the hospital). I have been suspicious of him before, but never found anything that didn't jive as he's taking care of the rental buildings in town including her shop and she's had a lot of trouble with the utilities, plumbing, etc... so she did have to interface with him. But I am now REALLY questioning his motives. (ODD, CHECK IT OUT)
- her parents found this out and her father was STEAMING when he got back home apparently (SIL told me this) and lectured her about that over the phone (VALIDATES THE ODD)
- her dad told me he would just completely cut her off and that he hopes I get custody of the kids if we do end up D (VALIDATES THE ODD SITUATION W/GUY NAMED ABOVE)
- StepS13 was gonna move back down with W and I, then not, then yes again, W getting lectured by his father (POOR KID, BACK AND FORTH)
- W getting unsollicited advice from people around her town how I (and her xH) are controlling her and encouraging her to stand up for herself (THEY DON'T KNOW SITCH)
- W still thinks she can just move wherever I will move for the rest of our lives, so we don't have to separate the kids (DILLUSIONAL!)
- W says that I am doing so well now, I seem so happy now without her. It's awesome to see me being so much better (her words here!) (WAY TO GO, SAM!)
- W says that if she would move back in, I would just turn back to crap. (SHE CAN'T MOVE BACK IN W/OUT DEALING W/HER CRAP)
- Told her I am the way I am now, and I don't want to be like I was before, not for this R, nor for a future R, the changes are permanent. (INSPIRATIONAL!)
- W told me that I am just trying to hold on and she doesn't think her "feelings" will change, it's not gonna just turn on like a switch. (FEELINGS CHANGE, INCLUDING YOURS...)
- Told her I am not afraid to move on, start dating, or be alone for a while, but that I think I owe it to the boys to try every single little thing that could work to avoid them getting hurt (and pointed to the example of how StepS13 is now hurting and torn between his dad and her) (GOOD MAN)
- Told her that I think we haven't really worked on our R/M in the past year, that it will take work to get "feelings" back. That if we don't talk about and work on things on a regular basis (only had 3 discussions in the past year) then nothing will change. (SHE'S HAD ENOUGH SPACE.)

You're on the cusp of something! I'll pray for you!

[Sam1007]

Thanks for stopping by MB!

- her parents found this out and her father was STEAMING when he got back home apparently (SIL told me this) and lectured her about that over the phone (VALIDATES THE ODD)
- her dad told me he would just completely cut her off and that he hopes I get custody of the kids if we do end up D (VALIDATES THE ODD SITUATION W/GUY NAMED ABOVE)

What did you mean with the validates? That I am not just imagining things?

And about the people in her town: they apparently are telling her that I am controlling, which she then accused me of. I told her that I agree with that as far as her going out by herself during the first 3 years of the boys' being there. I was denying myself the privilege of going out by myself, so I didn't think it was fair for her to. However, I realized almost 2 years ago that we both do need that freedom and have been easy about that since then (starting before she even moved out).

Bottom line is, from the DB standpoint, that my changes have been noticed and they have been noticed to be consistent (she first mentioned them in her email from Feb, and now again). But her conclusion from that is that I am apparently happier WITHOUT her than WITH her (this was also mentioned in her Feb email and again now). How do I get this out of her head!?? I'd like her to come back home and try me. See for yourself! After she started talking about not being able to move back in because she feels like the enemy and that I would just turn back to crap, she would "ruin" me, I've mentioned that my changes are permanent. That's all I can say, and I don't know what else would convince her.

I sincerely hope that she will have the sense to move out of that town where she can do some unbiased thinking for a change. These people have been talking to her for the past year and a half now.