Hello Kittyfish & Sandi2!

[sandi2]

tryingtilDorR,

I went to your thread to talk to you about this. You are amoung many, many who come here trying their best to detach and drop the rope, but just haven't mastered it yet. I will talk to you about it on your thread so I don't hijack this one.

Sandi

[Kittyfish]

You're getting great advice here!

I agree, Sandi is outstanding! Although I would like to hear more about your experience Kittyfish. As I recall, unlike Sandi's experience, there wasn't much your EX-H could do once you had decided you were "done". Thinking back, was there really NOTHING he couldn't have done to save your M? Did he pursue too much or not put in enough effort to work on his own issues? Did he not give you enough time to work things out on your own? Just curious as you and my W are close in age.

First of all, I broached the subject of a separation- which he refused. I even said, just sleep at your parents (five houses down) at night- you can be here every am for the kids and stay here until they go to bed. He refused. I have no family living near us so I couldn't. So I guess we had what I considered a in house separation. He went from not even sitting by me to wanting to be right beside me all the time. He wanted to talk relationship 24/7. Then he tried to have his family say that if I left I'd have to leave the kids- which clearly I had no intentions of doing- heck, I had raised them their whole lives- because he was always gone pursuing his hobbies. I cried for three days straight- and I mean seriously straight.

He wanted to talk to me late into the night- and I was exhausted. He barricaded me into the bedroom one night and that was my final straw. Every day he would ask "Are you staying? I cannot handle this limbo" I finally said, "No, you won't give me any space to work through this in my mind- so I want a divorce"

In addition to all his badgering and his families he made me counsel with our pastor for three hours one day and then invited the pastor over again that night- where he stayed about three more hours. I was just drained and cried out.

So, yeah, I got an apartment and moved out. He probably could have tried to show me he changed and wanted me back but he really didn't try. His tactic was to tell everyone what a WXore I was and how I had had affairs with five men and one woman (not true) etc. He even called my father to say I'd had an affair with five men!

[tryingtilDorR]

I know I don't want a D either, and my first meeting with an attorney reinforced this. However, if she is going down that road and wants to file I would want to try to negotiate with her. However, I think I will let her make the first move on this if she ever does since, after all, she wants out not me.

The OM has a criminal record and she caught me last night trying to do some research on it (email inquiries I made). I am doing it in case I need to file a restraining order to prevent contact with my kids in case she ends up leaving. She was furious. It is just a reminder, however, of how difficult things will get for her if she leaves (especially for OM).

It seems like the only R talk we have these days are over her involvement with OM (which she denies but I know she is lying). As much as I try to avoid the subject it inevitably comes up for some reason.

Have you thought about how long you are willing to go on like this? I find myself getting angrier at the fact that she has an EA more and more over time. At first I was just hurt and devastated, but now it is starting to make me angry due to humiliation and other factors, but I have to keep it in check for the sake of my kids while maintaining some dignity - it is a tough thing to do!

One thing you and I can take heart in (in a twisted way anyway) is that at least we KNOW what our wives are doing to sabotage their M (EA), whereas others are just dealing with the same symptoms but no confirmation of an EA/OM. I was almost 'relieved' when I confirmed it since it explained so many things.

[BigJohn]

Hey Kittyfish, great to hear from you!

First of all, I broached the subject of a separation- which he refused.

My W mentioned trial separation also around late March-early April, but only after having a discussion with our/my therapist. My response was that I felt a trial separation was basically just a prelude to divorce- essentially an "open" marriage and an opportunity to further "test drive" the R with the OM. W responded back "Yeah, I'd rather just do the D." Right now, we are "emotionally separated" living in the same house and sleeping in the same bed.

He went from not even sitting by me to wanting to be right beside me all the time. He wanted to talk relationship 24/7.

Wow, I haven't been that bad. I respected my W's physical space early on and the R talks have diminished significantly since March-April.

I finally said, "No, you won't give me any space to work through this in my mind- so I want a divorce"

Another mistake on his part. This is what is so frustrating to me because I HAVE given my W "space" to "think things through" only to find that she has used the time to only reinforce her feelings about leaving/divorcing. Of course, her continued refusal to give up all contact with OM definitely changes the dynamics of the situation.

He probably could have tried to show me he changed and wanted me back but he really didn't try.

I have told my W repeatedly (while in pursuit mode) that I DO want her back. I have already made significant changes and continue to improve. Despite this, my W continues to maintain the attitude that she does not care if I change or not because she is "done". Her attitude is very passive-aggressive in nature towards me and only when she drops the "wall" does she express genuine feelings of sadness/fear/anxiety about what is going on with us. When she does drop the "wall" she tells me that she feels significant anxiety about working on our M while the R with the OM "just feels right".

The OM is very clearly actively coaching and directing my W- for example, my W disclosed to me that he was "very happy" and "proud" of her when she told him of her decision/plan to eventually divorce. It is becoming increasingly clear to me that my W's relationship with OM is VERY co-dependent and that OM is very controlling of my W in his own passive-aggressive way. OM may also have issues of his own- I can't put my (middle) finger on it- maybe bipolar?

I'm trying to detach as best I can but it makes it tough the more I'm starting to discern about how sick my W's relationship with OM is (or may be). I'm beginning to wonder if detaching and giving her "space" is really the right approach given the circumstances. With my W demonstrating how weak she is towards the OM, I'm starting to feel like I may be giving up ground to the OM with my W by detaching (and thereby demonstrating no resistance). I'm concerned that in her current condition, my W may interpret my detaching as me giving up on her or not caring about her (like she think OM does). Your thoughts Kittyfish? (Sandi, feel free to comment as well.)

[BigJohn]

I know I don't want a D either, and my first meeting with an attorney reinforced this. However, if she is going down that road and wants to file I would want to try to negotiate with her. However, I think I will let her make the first move on this if she ever does since, after all, she wants out not me.

The OM has a criminal record and she caught me last night trying to do some research on it (email inquiries I made). I am doing it in case I need to file a restraining order to prevent contact with my kids in case she ends up leaving. She was furious. It is just a reminder, however, of how difficult things will get for her if she leaves (especially for OM).

It seems like the only R talk we have these days are over her involvement with OM (which she denies but I know she is lying). As much as I try to avoid the subject it inevitably comes up for some reason.

Have you thought about how long you are willing to go on like this? I find myself getting angrier at the fact that she has an EA more and more over time. At first I was just hurt and devastated, but now it is starting to make me angry due to humiliation and other factors, but I have to keep it in check for the sake of my kids while maintaining some dignity - it is a tough thing to do!

One thing you and I can take heart in (in a twisted way anyway) is that at least we KNOW what our wives are doing to sabotage their M (EA), whereas others are just dealing with the same symptoms but no confirmation of an EA/OM. I was almost 'relieved' when I confirmed it since it explained so many things.

TTDR,

You know, I have my good days and my bad days. Today my W has an extra skip in her step and so I know that she has spoken with OM (suspected no contact lasted about 4 days). I gotta tell you, it just pisses me off to no end how this OM scumbag is outright exploiting and manipulating my emotionally vulnerable W. Not to say there is no accountability on my W's part, because there certainly is. But the outright coaching of my W to break up my family... this guy is a complete scum. And vindictive too- he knows damn well no one in the family will support any future relationship my W has with him- certainly not my kids!

Do I know how long I can hold out? Can't say I've thought too much about it, just taking it day by day. Nor do I really want to right now- we have almost 20 years together plus we've got three beautiful children, a house along with a lot of other things that we have worked hard for all these years.

I guess there is some comfort in knowing that the destruction of our M and family will rest solely at her feet if it comes to that. I really hope it doesn't come to that though because if it does, when she hits rock bottom it's going to be excruciatingly painful for her- very, very bad. My W has a tremendous amount to lose.... while OM has NOTHING to lose.

I told her early on "Mark my words, if you see this R with(OM)to conclusion, you will come to hate (OM) for the rest of your life." And that is the truth. I'd bet my house on it. I sure hope I don't have the future opportunity to tell my W "I told you so."

[BigJohn]

Well I did it again- another backslide tonight with an R talk with the W. Not sure if I could have avoided it though given the circumstances.

It started with a phone call I got last night from a friend who had previously had a 2 year EA/PA that ended a year ago. (He previously confided the A to me after I came crying on his shoulder after discovery of my wife's EA.) My friend was calling because he had just had an unexpected 5 minute phone conversation with his former OW and was experiencing a kind of anxiety attack- he wanted to relapse and go be with OW right then and there and needed someone to talk him down from doing so. We talked, I got him grounded and he got home safe and sound. But just listening to him explain the emotional agony he was going through really got to me. It bothered me that EVEN AFTER A YEAR, my friend knew with every fiber of his being that what he was feeling for the OW was wrong but that he was struggling with his feelings nonetheless. It made me think about my W and the problems she is already experiencing with not being able to stop communicating with OM and how much harder it may get for her as time goes on.

Fast forward to this evening. W comes into my office and we started talking about family finances and dwindling savings. W has been off work 6 months now and has shown little motivation for getting a regular part time job. (I guess I wouldn't be too motivated to get a job either, not when you can have fun in the sun with the kids and engage in a sizzling hot EA to boot.) Anyways, the discussion inevitably turns to me explaining to W that she needs to get serious about getting employed again, which then leads to me telling her she needs to get her head back in the game altogether.

So then I confide in her what happened the previous night with my friend and how it really bothered me. I know, big mistake, but I couldn't help it. I tell her that I love and care about her very much and mention that I don't want to see her experience what my friend is experiencing. I acknowledge that I understand that she doesn't like me right now, I am the bad guy and that she doesn't want to hear much of anything I have to say. I tell her anyway that I am concerned about her and the impact the sitch is having on the welfare of our family. Predictably, she states that she doesn't think the EA is a problem at all, no she is not addicted to OM, blah blah blah.

I wind up telling her that I'm just fed up with all the BS besides no physical/emotional intimacy- not being able to tell her she looks beautiful, not being able to tell her I love her, not being able to compliment her about anything, etc. These are all conditions she made previously about giving her "space"- all the things that made her feel "uncomfortable" and/or "guilty". Then we get into how she sees her EA with OM (i.e. "wonderful"/"special") so differently than everybody else and that's when I tell her how her EA really is- sleazy, unethical, etc. She responds to this by stating "That sounds really supportive."

I have to say that it is exchanges like this that make me question detaching in my sitch- at least right now- because it sure seems like detaching and giving in to the above requests are mainly helping HER. They help HER detach from me. It makes it easier and more comfortable for her to continue to engage in the EA- no resistance = no guilt/uncomfortableness. I'm all for being sympathetic towards my W and what she is experiencing, but I'm also getting tired of taking a bunch crap from her as well.

I talked to my therapist about my feelings regarding the above and she asked me why I need to make my W feel comfortable while in the midst of the EA? She (the therapist) suggested that detaching may not be the best approach right now and that perhaps I shouldn't hold back my feelings to my W- it's OK to let my W know that I'm pissed off about the sitch and I don't have to hide it. Likewise, if I want to tell my W she is beautiful and/or I love her then I should, the hell with whether it makes my W uncomfortable or not. Thoughts anyone?

[MrBond]

Yeah, don't listen to your therapist.

When it says to detach, I didn't see much detaching or giving her space on your part. You said it yourself how you opened up the R talk. You haven't given her what she specifically asked for...space. See what happens when you totally give that to her. You had only done it for maybe a couple of days then you would backslide? It's got to take longer than that.

[BigJohn]

What if the feeling between her and OM is mutual and they both get tired of each other? What then? Just wondering if I will need to be alert to any specific indicators that may signal a need to change up what I am doing.

Well, that does happen! They may go as far as to get M. That is a reality that you have to face. "If" you stick with dropping the rope, then you won't change anything b/c you will be on your way to a new life. "If" you truly drop the rope, I don't think you will be observing her close enough to even know if the status in her R with OM is intensified or if it's failing unless she tells you that they are getting M or have broken up. That is the point of dropping the rope is that you are not involved with her personal life. You don't think about it b/c you have moved on and have you own life.

It will soon be apparent if you truly have dropped the rope or not. It is all about "attitude" and your thought process. Your focus on her drops and your attention is on other things. That's why it has to come from within you and not be an "act" or a "tool" to get her back.

I sure hope you can do it. Almost all the LBS think that they can't at first, but in time they discover that is the only route to survival and keeping their sanity.

Talk to you later,
Sandi

Sandi,

I posted earlier about a backslide that happened yesterday. Hope you get a chance to read it. I got to thinking more about how one of the things you said that got your attention was when your H told you that you would not have ANY relationship with him if your EA continued. It doesn't sound like your H himself was totally detached from your sitch yet he managed to knock a little sense in you by telling you this.

I realize that 2 1/2 weeks of detaching (or almost detaching)is not enough time to see if it is working or not in my sitch. I have to tell you though, I'm feeling really skeptical right now that it will prove effective with my W as she is 110% committed to this EA with the OM.

Initially I was pursuing, which she may not have totally liked but maybe didn't dislike because it feeds her ego and provides her with a sense of security. Looking back, I really don't think the pursuing was really that unpleasant enough for her other than it slowed down her efforts to detach from me and transfer all of her emotions to the OM (which I believe has now been accomplished.)

Then I gave her "space" to "figure everything out", time that she in turn spent R building with OM both with him and in her head while at the same time mentally demonizing me.

Now I'm trying detachment, which I agree is more for my benefit than hers but at the same time it still feels like ENABLING.

The friend I referred to in my earlier post confided in me that had his W not gone completely ballistic and made his OW life hell and his life tremendously uncomfortable, he would have NEVER given up on his A and come to his senses enough to realize what he was doing to his family. My therapist also made a comment to me that sometimes it takes a crisis within the sitch to wake up the WAW to the reality of what they are doing to their family and move towards ending the A.

One of my other hang ups with the concept of detaching is that my W and I have three kids. I'm torn because its one thing to detach to help protect myself personally, but I'm also representing our children's best interest in terms of the way I handle my W and it doesn't feel entirely right that the end result is my W feeling enabled, emboldened and comfortable continuing the EA. Puppy touched upon the issue of my W losing respect for me and my W cake eating in a prior post and I'm beginning to cede his point.

I'm willing to be very patient in applying passive techniques like detaching if there is a reasonable expectation of success at some point WITHOUT perpetual limbo. The problem is I just don't think my W is mentally and emotionally strong enough to pull out of this sitch on her own without serious negative stimulation. I really suspect that she needs to have the consequences of her apparent desire to choose an "ideal life" with the OM over me (and the kids) spelled out for her in a very sharp contrast.

(As a side note, I do believe that my W is very co-dependent on the OM in terms of her decision making. Specifically I think that a big factor rests in whether the OM commits to M- a very big deal for him since he would have to relocate to our state because of our kids. Only then would W move to D before quickly M the OM.)

Any thoughts out there would be greatly appreciated.

[sandi2]

Hey Friend,

Okay, guess we better have one of our talks, yes? (Oh my, I didn't mean to sound so arrogant!) I do see you as a friend and I do want to help you b/c I know you are in terrible pain and need encouragement. That is what you want more than me telling you all that you did wrong. I can tell you this.....I came so close to leaving my M of 40+ years that I practically had my hand on the doorknob......but I didn't leave, Big John. I didn't leave! Sweetie, it takes so much time for this stinking mess to heal up and get back to what is almost normal again. Just pray to God that she "heals" and doesn't D you. Okay, so let me back up to some things you have posted....

With my W demonstrating how weak she is towards the OM, I'm starting to feel like I may be giving up ground to the OM with my W by detaching (and thereby demonstrating no resistance). I'm concerned that in her current condition, my W may interpret my detaching as me giving up on her or not caring about her (like she think OM does).

So, you already had this "mind-thought" before you had your major backslide with your W in your office. Know what this is? It is "fear" and "impatient". I figure you have your nickname of "Big" John for a reason. Maybe John is nowhere close to your real name, but I have a feeling that the "Big" may refer to your built......maybe.....but I personally think of "Big" John as being a STRONG man. Some silly young females may think that physical strength is attractive in men, but as we women get some maturity under our belts, we discover that those muscles don't mean much if they don't have what they need on the "inside". It is who the man is in his spirit that makes the real difference. I believe you are a big man in your spirit, John. Yes, you are feeling weak and out of control at this point in time, but that does not mean you are losing ground or that you are a failure, and it sure doesn't mean that "you" are weak in any sense of speaking. I bet you are like so many others who are a "fixer" and it is killing your soul b/c you cannot "fix" this stitch! I understand, b/c I am a natural born fixer myself. I had to learn the hard way in several other situations, that I could not fix a lot of things....and especially, "people". Oh, it is soooo hard! But you know what? Learn...I did. The School of Hard Knocks is a bad place to graduate from! (Notice I ended my sentence with a preposition? It's b/c the School of Hard Knocks isn't about grammer! ;))

Now let's look at that last part of your quote. You are concerned that your W will think you don't care about her like the OM does. But didn't you try that in the very beginning??? Didn't you discover that pursuing doesn't work? Every LBH automatically starts to pursue b/c that is the nature God gave him and he is doing what comes naturally. But the nature God gave man was to be used in a "positive" arrangement when the male is seducing the female in hopes of M. I personally think it is natural for a female to be the "responder" but I know a lot of women pursue, so I won't argue the point right now. My "point" is that your stitch is out of whack from what is suppose to be normal, so you can't do what "feels" normal.....which is to pursue her.

I realize that 2 1/2 weeks of detaching (or almost detaching)is not enough time to see if it is working or not in my sitch. I have to tell you though, I'm feeling really skeptical right now that it will prove effective with my W as she is 110% committed to this EA with the OM.

2 1/2 weeks is nothing when one looks at the entire scope of things. But it is h3ll for the LBH and he feels like it has been an eternity!

You are allowing the "fear" to consume you when you see her step pick up and know it is b/c she had her drug fix from OM. You are right when you say she's down when she's not been around him or they may have had a spat, then she's "up" when she's had her ego food from OM. I've been there. That is why the break-up in the A is so bad b/c of the period of time that the W has to go through that are like--"withdrawals" from her OM (just like withdrawals from a drug).

This conversation with your friend fed your fear:

It bothered me that EVEN AFTER A YEAR, my friend knew with every fiber of his being that what he was feeling for the OW was wrong but that he was struggling with his feelings nonetheless. It made me think about my W and the problems she is already experiencing with not being able to stop communicating with OM and how much harder it may get for her as time goes on.

After that, your natural instincts kicked, again, in to "fix" your W. Doesn't work. Look, BJ, I am just like you about that kind of thing. I KNOW how much you think if you could only point this out to her and get her to "see" the outcome that she would think logically and come to her senses! She won't think logically. I don't believe she CAN think logically in this crises she's in. You fell back into seeing her as the woman she used to be. Remember, she's not that girl now. You panicked after talking to your friend, and I can certainly understand why. It is statements like his that started putting the brakes on for "me" when I heard stuff like that. However, I was already seeking some help at the time I discovered those statements......you have to bear that in mind. Plus, I was a lot older than your W and I think my stitch was a bit out of the norm compared to the usual age range for most WAW's.......not that a woman couldn't leave her M at "any" age, but you know what I mean.

but I couldn't help it.

Sorry, sweetie, but I disagree. You CAN help it and you BETTER begin "helping it" by stopping this sort of confrontations with your W. Don't use that excuse that "you can help it" b/c you are a man who can make choices for himself. Right? (I knew it was a form of speaking, but I wanted to point that out, anyway.)

What you told your W was very touching. But, my H told me the same thing. He told me how "precious" I was. I'll never forget it. I felt like slime. I was so ashamed. But, it did not make me stop my sexual EA on line with OM. Can you believe that? See the power that it has over a person? But, like you....I had free will and I could make my own decisions....nobody forced me to continue my EA....I "wanted" to continue it, even after my H poured his heart out to me. So will your W.

Then we get into how she sees her EA with OM (i.e. "wonderful"/"special")so differently than everybody else

Hummmm, yep, just like when she was in high school.

that's when I tell her how her EA really is- sleazy, unethical, etc.

She can't think logically. No use in trying to point it out.

See what I mean:

She responds to this by stating "That sounds really supportive."

Now really, she is looking for her H of 20 years to support her feelings over another man?? That proves what I'm saying.

detaching and giving in to the above requests are mainly helping HER. They help HER detach from me. It makes it easier and more comfortable for her to continue to engage in the EA- no resistance = no guilt/uncomfortableness. detaching and giving in to the above requests are mainly helping HER. They help HER detach from me. It makes it easier and more comfortable for her to continue to engage in the EA- no resistance = no guilt/uncomfortableness. I'm all for being sympathetic towards my W and what she is experiencing, but I'm also getting tired of taking a bunch crap from her as well.

NO, NO, NO! Listen, you aren't thinking rationally here. Let me back up and say that you aren't thinking like a DBer. You are so stressed that your mind is almost in the condition hers is in. You think that if you leave her alone and give her space that she will be freed up to indulge more in her A. Am I understanding you right? First of all, you are not holding her back from indulging in "anything". Secondly, she wants your "blessings" on her A, which is stupid and shows how messed up she is. Thirdly, you said no resistance = no guilt, etc. I don't personally see where your W feels guilty at all. The woman is openly talking to her HUSBAND about her A, for gosh sakes. Where do you get thinking your pursuing would be any resistance? It sure as heck isn't going to make you "attractive" to her! The only "resistance" will be what holds her back mentally & emotionally.....and that my dear friend will be the ATTRACTION/RESPECT that she feels toward you!! (Oh...I'm typing so hard my fingers hurt... )

I'm not really mad....just put that little face up there to make a point. I do wish I could reach through this computer and shake you! Do you think that would help snap you out of it and wake you up to your senses anymore than you are hoping your WAW will snap out of her fog and wake up to her senses?

Okay, this part: "I'm all for being sympathetic towards my W and what she is experiencing, but I'm also getting tired of taking a bunch crap from her as well". Maybe I am to blame for you thinking you should be "sympathetic", I hope not. I meant for you to "understand" what she is experiencing.....not that you should should just lay down and accept whatever she dished out to you and "take a bunch of crap from her". That is not it at all--and I sure hope I did not give you that wrong idea in my posts.... As a WAW, I mearly want to help LBH's get a better idea of what works and what doesn't work with the W. I can tell you that my H pursued big time. He suddenly started showing me attention (to the point of smothering me) for the first time in YEARS......and I couldn't handle it. Which I had previously "wanted" that attention, but he wouldn't give it to me.) It made me want to throw-up. Graphic, I know, but that is the effects it had on my emotions. So, will you believe me when I tell you that detaching is the ONLY way that works with a WAW?

She (the therapist) suggested that detaching may not be the best approach right now and that perhaps I shouldn't hold back my feelings to my W- it's OK to let my W know that I'm pissed off about the sitch and I don't have to hide it.

Well, your therapist is wrong! Yeah, she may have some initials behind her name but it doesn't make her wise. First, let me point out that you are not exactly suppose to "hold back" feelings......I think you have this all screwed up. DB teaches us not to "show" a negative attitude and to keep a PMA around the WAS as much as possible b/c that is what works. It does not mean that you are go give any indication that you are happy about her EA. It does not mean that you are suppose to show her support in her wrong-doing. It is teaching you how to be a better person, and one that people in general like to be around. Do you want to be around a person who is exploding their anger on you all the time, telling you what you do wrong and how upset they are by your actions? Do you want to be around a person who is crabby and negative? I don't think so. You've explain....how many times....to her how you feel about the stitch. Do you think it didn't take and you have to go over & over your feelings about it untill it does "take"? That is not the "tool" one uses in these types of situations. It is the wrong tool and the job won't get done using the wrong tool trying to fix what's broken.

Likewise, if I want to tell my W she is beautiful and/or I love her then I should, the hell with whether it makes my W uncomfortable or not.

NO, BIG JOHN.....NO! NO! NO! This is not the right track. It is NOT about making her comfortable or not, okay? Forget what she told you about her being uncomfortable......FORGET IT!! I'm telling you what works in DB. You are scared out of your mind. Get a grip and settle down and listen to me....please. You want to tell her that she's beautiful and you love her, etc., b/c you are living in a...."panic palace"...and you need to move out of that place and find a "peaceful riverside"! You cannot think properly when living in panic palace and you act out of emotions. You must act out of "knowledge" and that's what we are trying to give you here on the board. If you express these feelings for her, it will have the same affect on her as it did when my H told his feelings for me. Is that what you want? You don't care about how uncomfortable she may feel? Well, do you care that telling her you love her will make her want to vomit? Would that make you feel better? B/c I don't think this is about what makes her feel comfortable or uncomfortable......I THINK IT IS ABOUT YOUR COMFORT! WHAT MAKES YOU FEEL BETTER! Now, I know I feel better after yelling that at you. I hope you "get it", Big John, I truly hope you get it.

Please listen to the people who have actually experienced first hand the whole thing. You may have tried to detach in 2 1/2 weeks....but you really didn't. You may have pulled back some, but you never "detached". As long as she has you hooked this badly...emotionally......then you are tied to that rope! All I can do is keep telling you that if you'll break free of that hold and drop the rope......you will be at peace, respect yourself, become attractive, and you'll be able to move forward (with or without her).

You have two choices. Becoming the man I just described.....or being like a whimp who follows his W around telling her how much he loves her & how beautiful she is, while he watches to see if she throws out a crumb his way. Of course, she won't! Then he'll get all angry and "express" his outlook about her A, but she doesn't stop b/c she doesn't respect what he has become.

So, the choice is yours, Big John. It always was. You can believe that so-called expert...therapist, or you can believe Michele W. Davis, (a real expert), who has had a life-time study of these cases and written books and been on shows, etc. You can accept the word of us who have, and "are" living through what we have tried to describe to you. It's all about choices and freedom.

I pray you will do what you need to do.

Take care,
Sandi

[BigJohn]

I do see you as a friend and I do want to help you b/c I know you are in terrible pain and need encouragement. That is what you want more than me telling you all that you did wrong. I can tell you this.....I came so close to leaving my M of 40+ years that I practically had my hand on the doorknob......but I didn't leave, Big John. I didn't leave! Sweetie, it takes so much time for this stinking mess to heal up and get back to what is almost normal again. Just pray to God that she "heals" and doesn't D you.

Sandi, Thank you for another great post and the wallops with the 2 x 4. I needed them. You are such a blessing to all of us LBHs. Thank you very much for your continued interest in my sitch. Having that family finances talk with my W on the heels of me dealing with my friend's crisis was just too much for me and I blew it.

I do want her to heal, but I don't see that happening until OM is out of the picture. Unfortunately we really can no longer avoid discussing the need for her to get back to work. It has to happen as we are too financially overextended at this time to only live on my paycheck.

So, you already had this "mind-thought" before you had your major backslide with your W in your office. Know what this is? It is "fear" and "impatient". I figure you have your nickname of "Big" John for a reason. Maybe John is nowhere close to your real name, but I have a feeling that the "Big" may refer to your built......maybe.....but I personally think of "Big" John as being a STRONG man. Some silly young females may think that physical strength is attractive in men, but as we women get some maturity under our belts, we discover that those muscles don't mean much if they don't have what they need on the "inside". It is who the man is in his spirit that makes the real difference. I believe you are a big man in your spirit, John.

Agreed, looking back now it was fear and impatience that got the better of me.

You are right about me, physically I am a big, strong guy. I am also very strong willed and very confident in myself. As much as I love my W and want my M to survive, if it does not, at least at the end of this process I will be in a much better place to recover and be the man I want to be. Despite the power my W has over me because of my love for her, even she cannot break my spirit.

After that, your natural instincts kicked, again, in to "fix" your W. Doesn't work. Look, BJ, I am just like you about that kind of thing. I KNOW how much you think if you could only point this out to her and get her to "see" the outcome that she would think logically and come to her senses! She won't think logically. I don't believe she CAN think logically in this crises she's in. You fell back into seeing her as the woman she used to be.

Your right, this is a REALLY tough thing for me to accept and something I continue to struggle with. She can't think clearly to pull herself out of this mess by herself. This fantasy of hers has no chance of succeeding, it's a damn DISASTER in the making if she continues down this path...there are no winners. The prospect of her dragging the kids and I to jump off the proverbial cliff with her just drives me wild. Good grief!!

However, I was already seeking some help at the time I discovered those statements......you have to bear that in mind.

I know you mentioned reading books (I presume you were referring to "Women's Infidelity") that scared you enough to want to stop your EA. What other things brought about a desire in you to stop your EA? Was there a particular pivotal moment that sparked your interest in wanting to stop the EA?

The only "resistance" will be what holds her back mentally & emotionally.....and that my dear friend will be the ATTRACTION/RESPECT that she feels toward you!!

I agree, especially with regards to the issue of respect. I think an important part with respect is establishing some good boundaries, but I'm not sure where to start. I'd like some ideas on this beyond "turn off her cell phone".

Now, I know I feel better after yelling that at you. I hope you "get it", Big John, I truly hope you get it.

Please listen to the people who have actually experienced first hand the whole thing. You may have tried to detach in 2 1/2 weeks....but you really didn't. You may have pulled back some, but you never "detached". As long as she has you hooked this badly...emotionally......then you are tied to that rope! All I can do is keep telling you that if you'll break free of that hold and drop the rope......you will be at peace, respect yourself, become attractive, and you'll be able to move forward (with or without her).

Don't worry Sandi you haven't lost me. I will stick with your advice and resume detaching. It is getting easier DB-ing as time goes on.

You have two choices. Becoming the man I just described.....or being like a whimp who follows his W around telling her how much he loves her & how beautiful she is, while he watches to see if she throws out a crumb his way. Of course, she won't! Then he'll get all angry and "express" his outlook about her A, but she doesn't stop b/c she doesn't respect what he has become.

No wimps here. I am back in the saddle, ready to get back to work. Thanks again Sandi. Talk to you soon.